How much money in your engine ?

I don't think I saw any discussion on this topic before. As I mull my options over the winter break, I wondered how much money ppl pour into building their IT-legal engines. This, I imagine is a function of a) make B) class c) the 'how fast do you wanna go' syndrome. Not knowing how much ppl would admit to spending, I'm still curious to know how I can benchmark how much I plan to spend. So would appreciate your feedback on money spent, the extent of mods done & reliability.

Let me start off by saying that 4 yrs back, I spent $2500 on my 1.9l motor for the ITB Manta. 40-over pistons, engine balanced & blueprinted, manifold & cylinder head port matched, head planed with deck to get about 8.1:1 CR (stock is 7.6:1). I thought that was very expensive, but the motor did last me 4 seasons without a rebuild.

Bhima

Your estimate of $2500 is not far-fetched. It can depend on the degree to which one has to go to "freshen and upgrade" the engine. I have been told that a D16 head can be redone for under $900 for example. What the rest of the assembly would cost is governed by what you want to do.

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Grandpa's toys-modded suspensions and a few other tweaks
'89 CRX Si-SCCA ITA #99
'99 Prelude=a sweet song
'03 Dodge Dakota Club Cab V8-Patriot Blue gonna tow

Unfortunately, you won't get many people who will open up to this question. The big power/big money engine guys will keep quiet so as not to make waves. Can't blame them.

An ITS legal 13B Mazda from National builders will run you $3500-$4000.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region #188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com
http://www.flatout-motorsports.com/i..._checkered.jpg

No secrets here, since it is a slow ITS car. I just paid $1800 for a stock 3.5 liter (215) Rover V8 shortblock, pistons, crank, cam and lifters. .020 over pistons were outrageous, so I stayed stock. I pulled the heads and had them cleaned an checked and new valves for about $200.

Biggest improvement was having everything balanced. Car revs much more freely now.

My engine is a DOHC, 16 valve, so it really depends on the core I have to start with. I plan on $2000-3000. The high end is new cams and pistons, then the normal wear and tear items. FWI, the long block assembly from the local auto parts store is approximately $2000 with the not as desireable pistons and cams (which are only available from the dealer, ouch).

Given that I build my own engines, I can keep my costs down to roughly $1500.00 per motor. A rebuild is around $300-500 cheaper since I usually do not re-deck or re-align hone on a rebuild and I can use a set of pistons (balanced with rods) already in stock (or reused). I get pretty finicky, so I do not reuse oil pumps, water pumps and certain fasteners.

Once you acquire the minimal tools necessary, engine building is not that bad.

Heavy machine work is farmed out. The tough work there is finding a shop you can trust to consistently do good quality work.

Cheers.

Fresh from the junk yard for $200

An IT-legal Sunbelt Nissan SR20DE long block will run you about $5000. It's very hard to build a good one for much less than that, unless you ignore things like the cost of machine work, cost of parts, and cost of labor...

Let's not forget the extra cost outside of that, like headers development, ECU development, intake development, exhaust system. I know of an IT guy that's got at least $1800 in just his exhaust header.

Sure, I can install a $400 junkyard engine, but that ain't an "IT engine", it's a "junkyard engine in an IT car"...

GregA

(...and then you're still 4-6% off the pace...)

My motor in my ITC rabbit built by Shine was between 2500 and 3000, and well worth every penny.

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Sam Rolfe
TBR Motorsports
#85 ITC VW Rabbit
#85 GP Scirocco on the way
#11 GP Scirocco on the way

For my 12A RX-7 I paid $950 delivered to the front door for a "Factory Authorized" rebuilt motor through a Mazda dealer (his cost). That was in 1996. I have changed the spark plugs once since then and a new battery. The engine is still running strong. Just don't over heat it. My competitors say it is a "Strong" motor. I just dropped it in and fired it up. Sometimes you just get lucky, I guess. http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

Drive well.

I charge $3500.00 to do a CRX/Si motor which included new pistons, pumps, fasteners, and a number of setup and machine steps I won't disclose here. But I know my motors are LEGAL (not like some ITA CRX's I've beaten) and reliable.

So you have to respect the amount of work that goes into doing it right. You do get what you pay for when it comes to this type of work.

Unfortunatly joeg trivialized the process a little by saying that once you get the minimal hand tools it's not too bad. For example there is more to slapping in a set of rings than "slapping in a set of rings".

Tom Blaney
http://www.sbmsinc.com/race_shop.html

Quote:

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<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">How much money in your engine ?</font>

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I try to keep as much money OUT of my engine as possible... tends to get stuck in the valvetrain! http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/tongue.gif



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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Auburn, WA
ITS '97 240SX
http://home.comcast.net/~djjordan/Web/DJ_AV1.jpg

Quote:

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Originally posted by grega:


Sure, I can install a $400 junkyard engine, but that ain't an "IT engine", it's a "junkyard engine in an IT car"...

GregA

(...and then you're still 4-6% off the pace...)

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No Greg, I said $200.

Tom...But I can gap my rings (file to fits) for little (or no)investment in special tools.

I don't count my time as money.

Cheers.

Quote:

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<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">No Greg, I said $200.</font>

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And I said $400, which is the going price for a low-mileage JDM pullout SR20DE engine. At which point I'll be 6-8% off the pace.

Quote:

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I don't count my time as money.

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Cool! You're welcome to come on over any time you'd like and help me work on my car. Given you're doing all the work, my engines are a helluva bargain, since it doesn't cost me one red cent to disassemble and clean the old engine, inspect the parts for replacement, machine the parts on my own (including cylinder bore and hone, polishing the crank and rods, align-boring, decking), balance and blueprint all other parts on my own, and assemble the parts into an engine. Damn, son, using your techniques I just built an engine for the price of main and rod bearings, rings, and a gasket set!

Hell, once you twist it that way, Improved Touring is CHEAP! I gotta tell my wife we just saved a lot of money by going racing!!! Woo-hoo!

I'm with Joeg on this one. My time doesn't count as money. Sure, I know I'm deluding myself, but if I added in all the time that I have spent working on the car to the total in parts, I'd be very depressed because I could either be a) racing a Z06 vette or B) racing a DSR Radical or c) racing a competitive Formula Continental or d) half way to a new Ford GT.

I rather enjoy doing my own engine work. If the engine blows, I have but one person to blame. Plus, when I go through my checklist, I know it was done and was done correctly. That alone is worth my time.

This off season, I'm putting about $1200 into my engine with boring and parts. I could put more in by replacing everything (total was ~$2300), but I actually want to race next season...

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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

Bill,

I hear you. There is something about doing it yourself that is very rewarding. Reminds me of building drag engines with another student when I was in college. Everyone was saying, "There's no way you'll get 1.5 hp/ci in that class." Oh yeah? We dropped about $3K in machining alone.

Then again, I was at PRI (heavy on oval and drag racing) this past weekend when I spotted a slick little sports racer. Lots of carbon fiber and aero, including front and rear diffusers. With a 180hp motor it weighs 750#. Yeah, at $40K as a roller it was pricy, but 5#/hp is quite a ride.

Different strokes for different folks.

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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

ok...How about we take this the other direction?..

Who has the least money in a successful IT engine? How about the guy I know whose engine was assembled by buying to junk engines from a brand H dealership(the engine were replaced as bad-1 bad head, 1 bad rod)for $20 if I remember correctly. One new head gasket, 4 qts, 1 oil filter, one windshield (long story-sorry about that) and the car is running up front again.

Jim

Quote:

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Originally posted by joeg:
Tom...But I can gap my rings (file to fits) for little (or no)investment in special tools.

I don't count my time as money.

Cheers.

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Ad what did you pay for your honing plate and the special line bore tools

Looks like a realistic range is $2000 - $5000, w/ somewhere ~$3500 being the average, based on the above info.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

It's also the same, being the engine builder, crew chief, tow driver, etc. If a wheel falls off because it wasn't torqued, you have nobody to blame but your self. It does get a bit old after a bit, the the satisfaction that knowing that if the wheels do fall off, that I was the one that was on the other end of the wrench.

P.S. I've also never run out of Gas. :lol:

Quote:

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<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">P.S. I've also never run out of Gas. :lol:</font>

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Me too. You've been forewarned, stay upwind. http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif



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Marty Doane
ITS RX7 #13
CenDiv WMR

Quote:

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Originally posted by Tom Blaney:

Ad what did you pay for your honing plate and the special line bore tools

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Tom--I line hone (not bore) and that is done by a shop.

As for a torque plate (which I lend to the shop on a hone on a fresh bore) I made one out of an old cylinder head. Cut it in half length-wise (level with the head bolt bosses) and milled out the combustion chambers) I called in a favor from the operator of the mill.

Cost--$0.00

I am told--haven't confirmed this myself--that you can actually simulate a torque plate with your stock headbolts/washers and machined spacers.

Actually, it was one of my machine shops that asked me to make the "torque plate" out of an old cracked head.

Regards.

P.S.--I never said I own boring equipment, etc.

let me see, last march destroyed a 1500 dollar engine, august I destroyed a 2800 dollar engine, *&%^^$$#^&& carry the 2,
ill be at around 7500 by xmas in engines for the last 12 months. @#$%%$#@@@((!!!!$$%^& (expletive).

Quote:

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Originally posted by joeg:
Tom--I line hone (not bore) and that is done by a shop.

As for a torque plate (which I lend to the shop on a hone on a fresh bore) I made one out of an old cylinder head. Cut it in half length-wise (level with the head bolt bosses) and milled out the combustion chambers) I called in a favor from the operator of the mill.

Cost--$0.00

I am told--haven't confirmed this myself--that you can actually simulate a torque plate with your stock headbolts/washers and machined spacers.

Actually, it was one of my machine shops that asked me to make the "torque plate" out of an old cracked head.

Regards.

P.S.--I never said I own boring equipment, etc.

---

Each to his own. Especially when it starts with grammer corrections. My customers seem quite happy and that's all that really matters doesn't it.

Hi everyone, happy holidays...

My brother might get mad at me for disclosing this info but oh well...

$50.00 or so for a 200,000 mile used motor (little rusty).

$300 machine work, all basic no high tech refresher stuff.

$200.00 or so on gaskets/new rings/oil/antifreeze, and other odds and ends. Again nothing fancy.

Total cost for a 2.2L winning ITB Audi motor: $500 - $600. Best thing is that the engine is basically stock and lasts another 200,000 miles... that is a lot longer than 2 race seasons http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

You could go nuts and have 40 over pistons made (none available) and you could go nuts balancing and blueprinting but I trust those Audi enginears did a good enough job... Oh and we could get the intake and exaughst port matched 1" in, but agian to much $$$.

Truth of the matter is we can't afford it. If we could then we might try it in 1 car to see what sort of actual gains you get.

I think that most IT drivers have many other areas that they should consentrate on gaining time. Whenever we look at what to do next on the Audi's we deffinatly look at the cost/time factor and see where we can get the biggest "bang for the buck."

I also will boldly say that I think many of the "front runners" are "front runners" because of car setup/suspension and driving capabilities, not motor. For example my brother and I have basically equal motors, however he has a different suspension setup. His car is 1-2 seonds a lap faster no matter who is driving (me or him). I could add as much motor as I wanted but that wont do anything in an IT car... That 5% gain will only help you win when you have everything else maxed out.

Those who have the money please spend it, it keeps those tunners that keep this sport going in business!!!

Raymond Blethen

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http://rstperformance.bizland.com/rstsignature.jpg
RST Performance Racing
www.rstperformance.com
1st and 2nd 2003 ITB NARRC Championship
1st and 6th 2003 ITB NERRC Championship
3rd 2003 ITB ARRC Sprint Race
4th 2003 ITB ARRC Endoro
1st 2003 AS NERRC and NARRC Championships

Hey Tom, how are your own body parts doing now? dave

Quote:

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Originally posted by dpc:
Hey Tom, how are your own body parts doing now? dave

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A minor problem with some swelling, but otherwise the new knee works great. I'll be skiing gain next season, but I be kicking Serra's butt come spring http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

Thanks for asking

Good to hear from you Ray. Thanks for chipping in. Good data point. The Opel now has the option of using 9:1 pistons and larger valves and as I sit at home with a blown motor I was considering taking advantage of it...But you're right - what's the least we need to do to amp up our performance ? Do we as a group spend too much money on our engines ?

On a personal note, I as most of you struggle with the same questions..Is it the driver or is it the car ? (Yes) If the car is it suspension or the engine or the trans (rear end ratio) or the brakes ? For each make (and even track)the answer is different. For the Manta, hobbled with an 76BHP (stock) motor, it *seems* to be power/weight, even with the engine work I had had done. I'd love to be proven wrong - some day I'd like to do a swap with a front-runner and see how it goes...

Cheers,

Bhima

Quote:

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Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
Hi everyone, happy holidays...

My brother might get mad at me for disclosing this info but oh well...

$50.00 or so for a 200,000 mile used motor (little rusty).

$300 machine work, all basic no high tech refresher stuff.

$200.00 or so on gaskets/new rings/oil/antifreeze, and other odds and ends. Again nothing fancy.

Total cost for a 2.2L winning ITB Audi motor: $500 - $600. Best thing is that the engine is basically stock and lasts another 200,000 miles... that is a lot longer than 2 race seasons http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

You could go nuts and have 40 over pistons made (none available) and you could go nuts balancing and blueprinting but I trust those Audi enginears did a good enough job... Oh and we could get the intake and exaughst port matched 1" in, but agian to much $$$.

Truth of the matter is we can't afford it. If we could then we might try it in 1 car to see what sort of actual gains you get.

I think that most IT drivers have many other areas that they should consentrate on gaining time. Whenever we look at what to do next on the Audi's we deffinatly look at the cost/time factor and see where we can get the biggest "bang for the buck."

I also will boldly say that I think many of the "front runners" are "front runners" because of car setup/suspension and driving capabilities, not motor. For example my brother and I have basically equal motors, however he has a different suspension setup. His car is 1-2 seonds a lap faster no matter who is driving (me or him). I could add as much motor as I wanted but that wont do anything in an IT car... That 5% gain will only help you win when you have everything else maxed out.

Those who have the money please spend it, it keeps those tunners that keep this sport going in business!!!

Raymond Blethen

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[quote]Originally posted by Tom Blaney:
[B] Each to his own. Especially when it starts with grammer corrections. My customers seem quite happy and that's all that really matters doesn't it.

Agreed, Tom. I certainly have no engine customers, other than myself.

Regards,

Quote:

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<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Oh and we could get the intake and exaughst port matched 1\" in, but agian to much $$$. </font>

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To much $$$ ? Dremel tool, sandpaper, how much $$$ could that cost to port 1" into the head and 1" into the manifold?

All it takes is some time. Seems like a no brainer to me. I'm just waiting to get back to work so I can afford to do the rest of the body work.



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Tim Linerud
San Francisco Region SCCA
#95 GP Wabbit (Bent)
http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/index.html

To match it and get exactly correct I would think that it is bench flowed??? If not then what costs $2,000 or $3,000??? or even $5,000 for an IT engine???

Can someone do a price breakdown af a $2,000 IT engine and a price breakdown of a $5,000 IT engine?

I would be interested to see what costs so much.

Raymond

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http://rstperformance.bizland.com/rstsignature.jpg
RST Performance Racing
www.rstperformance.com
1st and 2nd 2003 ITB NARRC Championship
1st and 6th 2003 ITB NERRC Championship
3rd 2003 ITB ARRC Sprint Race
4th 2003 ITB ARRC Endoro
1st 2003 AS NERRC and NARRC Championships

Ray--At the highest end, you are probably paying a lot for the builder's reputation and experience/past R&D with a particular motor. I would hope it would include a good dose of dyno work to find optimal ignition and cam timing, flow bench work (as you memtioned), but the rules certainly would limit that because of match porting and optimizing fueling. It could also mean replacement of a lot of parts people would normally pass on and true blueprinting (e.g, taking many parts and finding equal sets without machining--like valve springs.

Quote:

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<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Can someone do a price breakdown...</font>

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Joeg's on the mark: experience and reputation have a lot to do with it. The one biggest expense for my engine build was one that very few of us can do ourselves, no matter how motivated we are: machine work.

I spent about $1700 just on machine work on my engine, and that was at a HELL of a discount. The reason that I cannot do it myself is because I don't own hundreds of thousands of dollars of machine tools nor do I have the skills to use them. When you consider the time involved in making sure that it's all PERFECT, plus the cost towards paying for the machines, plus a reasonable profit, there's just no way that someone can build an engine to the limit of the rules for $2000. It's just not reasonably possible.

When you then couple in the costs of the other things Joeg mentioned, such as development of the right things to do through dyno testing, flow testing, and fixing all the boo-boos when you get it wrong, $5000 for a top-flight engine is quite the bargain. You're paying for all of that time and expertise in the background so that you won't have to re-invent the wheel. If you want to re-invent the wheel, and you have access to machine tools at no cost plus the skills to use them, by all means give it a go, but I bet in the long run you'll spend more time and money getting there, especially if you amortize that investment over one engine.

It's really all a matter of perspective. Just about anyone can pull apart an engine and rebuild it to street specs with just a weekend and a boxful of replacement parts, and it'll probably run forever. However, if you're looking to take advantage of the rules and build an engine to even the 90th-percentile you're going to either have to spend the coin to buy the tools required to do it right or pay someone else for their time for using their tools to do it right.

Thanks for the responses...

I think that it might prove to any newbies that their time and $$$ can probably be spent elsewhere.

I think that the Motor is the last thing to be made "perfect" as a "perfect suspension" or "perfect line" will gain you more time than a "perfect motor."

Now what the real bummer is... As you build the motor faster and you develop your driving skills your suspension set-up will change, also as you develop the suspension your line is likely to change a little... hummm seems as though the only thing not changing is the motor... Maybe that should be the first thing to develope... To bad it is so dang expensive...

PS: Bhima I have to give you a little dig (all in good fun http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif ), just cause one of my favorite memories is still when you went off into the woods at Lime Rock!!! If you want to go fast and take shortcuts you need to build some "off Road" suspension first so you can get back out!!!

Raymond

Off-road suspension, eh :-) ?? Will keep it in mind.. Funny, the number of people who came up to me - both racers and general public alike, saying the same thing about the..er..little gardening I did last year. "Awesome !", "Man, that was the coolest thing I've ever seen !.." and so forth.

Bhima

Unfortunately I do not have the money to invest in my engine. Even if I did, it wouldn't be worth it where it is currently classified.

My engine is pretty old and I'm sure could use some work. It has a little over 190,000 miles on it without any work ever being done to it. Is there anything I can do that is simple to restore it a bit / make it last a bit longer? I'm looking for something fairly simple. I only have basic tools and am not a very good mechanic. Can't hurt to ask. Greg - that "simple" get it back to normal street level sounds great to me! I wonder how much power I'm down from street level.

Gran,

Beyond a new or rebuilt carb/injectors and fresh wires, coil, distributor, etc., you probably would benefit from some valve work. Something on the top end must be getting tired by now.

Gregg

Bhima

At least your engine waited till the end of the race to blow at the Glen. Mine went on lap 4. Ouch http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

I build my own engines. Being that my engine blew (threw a rod, discussed in the VW section of this group), would I have saved money getting a professionally prepared engine? Probably. Obviously they are a lot more reliable than mine. And I might even go a little faster with a Shine or BSI motor. And replacing the motor is costing some money. But I'm an engineer, and some part of the fun of racing is preparing my own stuff. I can't do the machine work, but I work with my machine shop to figure out what to do (they are a drag race shop, more used to 1000+ BHP engines then my whimpy little motor). But hey, we learned something with this failure. And for an engineer that's the fun of it, trying and learning. Sometimes with a setback. I don't recommend this for everyone. And especially don't experiment with your safety equipment. Leave that to the professionals.

Jim

$50.00 on used engine
$250.00 on head work (Rebuild, new guides, and 1 new valve because it was bent.
$50 to tank the block so it was clean
$100.00 in bearings/rings
$150 on gasket sets
$50.00 on oil/antifreeze
$40.00 on gas to bring it to the machine shop
$25.00 on pizza for Dad and Randy to put the engine back together

Time: (Equal to at least $20.00 per hr since that is what I make at work)
3 hrs to remove engine $60
2 hrs to dismantel engine $40
1.5 hrs in travel time to engine shop $30
3 hrs to rebuild engine $60
3 hrs to install engine $60
1 hr to tune engine $20


That's about a grand to do my 2.2 Audi Engine I built. Stock rebuild no goodies and almost all used parts except bearings, gides and one valve. I should have probably bought pisitons since they are pretty rusty but I didn't have the time or the money for them. I would say that after a few years I may get bored and build a top notch IT engine but for this year I spent the other $1800 on a Quaffe. (Automatic 2 sec at NHIS and almost 1 sec at Lime rock.)

I think it is pretty cool to see some of the totally tricked out engines In all honesty if I could I would spend dino time and crazy money tinkering. I think that the building process is half the fun... unless it's repairs. I hate repairs and exhaust work!

Stephen

PS I think that for ITB the Audi is definetly an overdog engine wise. No other car can touch them with equal preperation in IT. It's the handeling that makes hinders this car and puts it in ITB. That being said I don't know why more people don't build them! IT's very competitive and comes from the factory well built mechanically. It's not built like a Honda. ( Had to take the cheap shot at the hondas sorry I couldn't resist http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif )

Cheers and Happy holidays! I'm off to sleep! Manager for Toys R US during X-mas.... Thank god we don't race in the winter!

[This message has been edited by RSTPerformance (edited December 17, 2003).]