Metric AN fastener source?

Hey, folks.
So I'm reading Carroll Smith's "Prepare To Win" and he's sold me on the necessity to use AN-quality fasteners on my suspension components. Except I can't find any.
I'm in Atlanta and today I went to an aircraft supply store. They had a nice selection of AN-rated nuts and bolts...but NO METRICS!!! Pep Boys does have a very small selection of Grade 8.8 fasteners--but Smith says don't put 'em on a race car.
I've looked and looked online for someone who sells them, but I can't find a source. I feel certain my source is out there, but I just haven't found them yet.
Anybody else out there know where I can buy aircraft-rated fasteners?

Try http://www1.mscdirect.com/cgi/nnsrhm

Should be right down the street from you.

Thanks for the link and I'll definitely take a closer look. But in the Bolts section I didn't see anything higher than grade 8. And I hope I don't have to order in quantities of 100!

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Originally posted by gsbaker:
Try http://www1.mscdirect.com/cgi/nnsrhm

Should be right down the street from you.

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Just like Smith says in the book. www.aircraftspruce.com

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Chris Ludwig
08 ITS RX7 CenDiv

Strictly speaking, there is no such thing as a metric AN fastener. The AN series of aircraft fasteners are inch sizes not metric.

There presumably is such a thing as European metric aerospace fasteners, but I've not encountered them here.

Carrol Smith's main beef with non-AN fasteners was two-fold. First was quality control - the AN stuff is typically subject to much tighter quality standards, for obvious reasons - airplanes are held together with a surprisingly small number of pretty small bolts. Second is toughness - the basic AN hardware is tough rather than particularly hard, some SAE Grade 8 is so hard it is somewhat brittle. Grade 8 is nominally stronger and harder than a typical AN, but not as tough.

Roughly speaking (off the top of my head) a metric 8.8 is roughly equivalent to an SAE Grade 5, a metric 10.9 or 12.9 is roughly an SAE grade 8. The 8.8 is a "tough" grade somewhat similar to a typical AN fastener.

Another major problem has been counterfeit hardware - bolts that are marked as graded fasteners but do not meet the specs.

So I think that in practical terms, the closest you will come to a metric AN bolt is to buy brand-name 8.8 or in some cases 10.9 bolts from a reputable source. (And make sure never to buy anything with cut threads).

Most bolts on production automobiles are not stressed particularly highly, but a few are, so be careful!

Al Seim
Action Digital Race Data Systems
www.actdigital.com

I'm with Al. for the most part, the standard high-grade hardware you find locally is more than sufficient for what we do. Keep in mind that Smith focuses on serious professional racing with fabricated chassis and suspension components, stressed for duty far above what our production-based cars will ever see. For our car we use higher-grade hardware on very critical parts, like stressed drivetrain (internal and external) and key stressed suspension parts, but for the most part we use off-the-shelf standard high-grade hardware. As a general guideline, if you follow along the examples of the original equipment stuff (use higher grade where the factory did), you're more than fine.

I own a light airplane, and I can assure you that this AN-grade hardware can be *EXPENSIVE*, as in multiples of factors of off-the-shelf. Al mentioned quality control, and he alluded to the fact that the FAA requires traceability of each and every part sold for use on a certified aircraft. This all adds cost.

As Chris pointed out, the best place (that I use) for AN hardware is Aircraft Spruce, but you're going to find the availability of metric high-grade hardware to be sparse. Also, if your needs aren't going to be extravagant, stop by your local airport and make friends with an A&P on the field; if you're nice about it, use cash, and don't be a pain, you can probably buy it from them directly, resolving your need to inventory.

Good luck! - GA

[quote]Originally posted by Al Seim:
[B]Strictly speaking, there is no such thing as a metric AN fastener. The AN series of aircraft fasteners are inch sizes not metric.

And this is exactly why I'm reading (and re-reading) the Smith books. So many things that would be obvious to a trained engineer are not so obvious to me.

I think you're probably right: for most prod car applications 8.8 fasteners are a strong enough, but not too brittle choice.

The best 8.8 source I've found is http://www.BoltDepot.com. I can order individual pieces and save quite a bit of money.

Greg and Al beat me to my usual race car hardware diatribe. What they said.

Unless I were really up against it, I wouldn't use hardware store metric hardware on suspension pieces and so forth.

The good news is that OE Japanese (Honda, et al.) and German (VW) hardware is really good. I firmly believe that if you have one of these holding an A-arm on or whatevery, you can't practically do much better.

K

I would use stock fastners for the suspension pickups, unless you have a known problem. These cars (most of them atleast) were made to take a beating.

I agree about OEM fasteners.

They are very high grade, especially in critical suspension applications.

You are really safe if you change them with new ones when changing the component also.

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Originally posted by apr67:
I would use stock fastners for the suspension pickups, unless you have a known problem. These cars (most of them atleast) were made to take a beating.

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The only fasteners in this car that have ever failed me are big end bolts, and I've had two let go on me (both times I came to a stop at about the same spot exiting 7 at Road Atlanta--I should be getting to know those corner workers pretty well).
I'll admit that I reused old bolts when rebuilding the motor. Shame, shame. This year I'm machining the rods for larger (9mm vs 8mm) bolts (and yes, I'll user NEW big end bolts).

The highest grade of Metric fastener that I know of is 10.9. Pep Boys does have some of them. I agree that most of the hardware available from one's Honda (or other carmaker) parts department will be strong enough for the application. As to internal engine bolts-there will always be some debate on them.
Other sources that I'm aware of are Gateway Fastener near Pittburgh as well as Aircraft Spruce. If you can Supertanium fasteners by Premier out of Cleveland-they used to be the ones on Champ Cars.

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Grandpa's toys-modded suspensions and a few other tweaks
'89 CRX Si-SCCA ITA #99
'99 Prelude=a sweet song-FOR SALE
'03 Dodge Dakota Club Cab V8-Patriot Blue gonna tow

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Originally posted by HounDawg:
... This year I'm machining the rods for larger (9mm vs 8mm) bolts (and yes, I'll user NEW big end bolts).

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It's a little off topic but, can we do that?

K

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Originally posted by Knestis:
It's a little off topic but, can we do that?

K

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God, I winced when he said that. I knew this question was coming. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif



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Chris Ludwig
08 ITS RX7 CenDiv

haha...Me too...What kind of car? I have yet to see a need to go to 9mm if you use the right bolt.

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Originally posted by Joe Harlan:
haha...Me too...What kind of car? I have yet to see a need to go to 9mm if you use the right bolt.

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Sorry for the off-topic post.

I have a (possibly obsolete) 240Z. I'll have to research what bolt sizes were used on what models. From my reading of the IT specs, this would only be legal if the 9mm bolts were used on some version of the 240Z. I think the L26 used 9mm's, but I'm not sure. I'd better check into it.

I won't name names, but a MANY TIME ITS SARRC,PRO-IT,ARRC champion told me that if I hadn't used 9mm rod bolts that I shouldn't run the car past 6,000 RPM. I think he uses Sam Moore engines.

Dawg

Anyone use ARP bolts in their engines? Not sure if they make sizes for suspension components but worth a phone call.

http://www.arp-bolts.com/index.html

Keivn

Dawg, You can use 8 or 9mm bolts since the engines came both ways. ARP make a 8mm bolt for the 240z and thats the only way I build them for IT engines. I use 9mm bolts for Prod or GT stuff. Back to the subject, there are lots of places on the web to purchase 10.9 and 12.9 rated bolts. What I would like to find is a good place to get short thread bolts in different lengths.

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Originally posted by Joe Harlan:
Dawg, You can use 8 or 9mm bolts since the engines came both ways...

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Looks like you're right. I checked "How to modify your Nissan/Datsun OHC Engine" by Frank Honsowetz. The 240Z L24 engine had 8mm rod bolts up to 4/71, then they had 9mm bolts. I have a '72, so I'm pretty sure I don't have to upgrade the bolts. That's great, since it will save me a little machine shop expense. To quote Honsowetz "The stock rod bolt is the weakest link in the Nissan/Datsun L-series rod.
Too bad for those of you who were ready to protest...John Williams. Looks like his 9mm rod bolts are legal.

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Originally posted by Joe Harlan:
What I would like to find is a good place to get short thread bolts in different lengths.

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That is exactly how AN fasteners are spec'd. The threaded length of an AN bolt is a constant for a bolt of a given diameter.

You simply specify the grip length (unthreaded portion).

As mentioned above:

www.aircraftspruce.com if you call ask for Tad.

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That is exactly how AN fasteners are spec'd. The threaded length of an AN bolt is a constant for a bolt of a given diameter.

You simply specify the grip length (unthreaded portion).

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Sorry yeah, I stock a lot on AN hardware.. I was meaning Metric bolts with short threads and different grip lengths.


Dawg, be sure to have the bigends resized even when you use new bolts. Keeping the rod round and in spec is the key to a happy engine.

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Originally posted by Joe Harlan:
[BI was meaning Metric bolts with short threads and different grip lengths.[/B]

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Just had a need to further my plumbing education. Consulted one of the Good Books and came across:

"Metrics. The best source I've found is Metrics Inc., 410 S. Varney St. Burbank, CA 90052."<snip>"If you need aerospace quality in metric fasteners you are in big trouble unless you happen to know someone who works for Matra or Aerospaziale."

Those quotes are from Engineer to Win. Who knows the Burbank address could be a mini-mall now. Maybe a little time searching the web and you might score.

What kind of hardware do German and Japanese built aircraft use?

Japanese aircraft? Not too many of those around in this country, except for the few we got to see in dubya-dubya two. For the most part Japan buys NATO airplanes for defense and both US and Euro airplanes for commercial. I do recall that Honda is investigating a joint venture with GE to produce a aircraft turbine, and another venture with Teledyne/Continental to enter the piston engine market, and Toyota built and got approved the Lexus-based V8 engine for light aircraft use. Rumor is also strong that Honda is going to pursue a small 4- to 6-passenger personal jet, but nothing is firmed up.

There are a few light airplanes from Germany, such as Aerospatiale and/or Socata, but they have merged with EADS to become EADS/Socata. Other than these few, for the most part Europe also flies US-built light airplanes. In the defense and commerical arena, you're no doubt aware of consortium aircraft such as EADS (Airbus for commercial, Eurocopter for rotary, Eurofighter and A400M for defense), and Fokker and ATR (French/EADS) come to mind in bizjets and light regional jets. Given these are European consortium, they are likely all using standard metric hardware.

I don't know for a fact, but any country's aircraft industry is likely using the same standards as in their cars. Common country, common fasteners. Germans use "standard" metric in their cars, Japanese use JIS (finer threads).

I suppose you could always call your local big airport and find someone that is equipped to service and repair Airbus. They'd certainly know what fasteners are used and may considering selling you a limited amount. But you better plan on spreading your cheeks...

Just go buy this month's RACECAR ENGINEERING.

In the back (and throughout the magazine) are lists and ads of all kinds of vendors in the motorsports industry--including fasteners.

I gotta agree with Greg--be prepared for price shock.

Actually, some of those vendors and their products are so high class and expensive that they may exceed mil-spec and/or aerospace specs.

Cheers.

RCE is good, but most of the references will be to foreign sources given that it is published in England. Definitely race oriented though, so a good place to start.

If you want to go really high end for the domestic aerospace suppliers contact a manufacturer and ask if they have a local distributor. Here is a good one:

http://www.alcoa.com/fastening_systems/aer...ace/en/home.asp

See the PDF catalog for bolts and screws.

Most of this stuff is mouth-watering. Anyone for titanium alloy hydraulic fittings?

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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

Here's an update from Smith's "Nuts, Bolts, Fasteners and Plumbing Handbook," published in 1990 ("Prepare to Win" was published in 1975):

"It used to be that if we needed aerospace quality in a metric fastener we were in deep trouble, unless you knew someone at a European aerospace company like Dassault, Matra, or Aerospaziale. Today we are still in trouble, but not as deeply. The need for metric-sized fasteners has extended to the aerospace industry. The National Aerospace Standards Committee of the Aerospace Industries Association of America has adopted a set of standards for metric fasteners designated NA Metric...
"Even though our domestic auto industry now uses (very quietly) quite a few metric fasteners, and aerospace has written metric standards for threaded fasteners, it isn't easy to find metric hardware let alone GOOD metric hardware. the best sources are Global Metrics, Metric and Multistandard Components Corp (http://www.metricmcc.com/metric.htm - office in Atlanta) and Metrics Specialties Inc."

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Originally posted by HounDawg:
Looks like you're right. I checked "How to modify your Nissan/Datsun OHC Engine" by Frank Honsowetz. The 240Z L24 engine had 8mm rod bolts up to 4/71, then they had 9mm bolts. I have a '72, so I'm pretty sure I don't have to upgrade the bolts. That's great, since it will save me a little machine shop expense. To quote Honsowetz "The stock rod bolt is the weakest link in the Nissan/Datsun L-series rod.
Too bad for those of you who were ready to protest...John Williams. Looks like his 9mm rod bolts are legal.

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Off topic I know, but:
The 8 mm and 9 mm rods are different. The 9's are heavier. 8's are fine for IT cars, but use the ARP bolts. And have them resized as suggested above. Machining an 8 mm rod for a 9mm bolt would not be legal IMHO, and could weaken the rod.

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"Bad" Al Bell
ITC #3 Datsun 510
DC Region MARRS Series

Again, you guys on this forum are so smart! Yes, as I read it, it would be illegal to update the rod bolts from 8mm to 9mm--the only legal method would be to update the entire long block from a pre-4/71 to a post-4/71.
Although Honsowetz's book says the L24's rod bolts are the engine's weakest link (and it's the ONLY part on the engine that has ever failed me), I do agree that it's best to just get the ARP bolts. I assume the rule 17.1.4.D.1.o (Hardware items may be replaced with similar items performing the same fastening function(s)) is the rule which authorizes the ARP bolts to be used?

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Originally posted by badal:

Off topic I know, but:
The 8 mm and 9 mm rods are different. The 9's are heavier. 8's are fine for IT cars, but use the ARP bolts. And have them resized as suggested above. Machining an 8 mm rod for a 9mm bolt would not be legal IMHO, and could weaken the rod.

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