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I know the rev limiter needs to be dealt with, but does anybody use an aftermarket ECU or any other kind of ECU mods?
I dynoed my car this week, and the A/F mixture is all over the place (always lean). Seems like just boosting the fuel pressure will move the curve, but not change the shape much. How do I flatten it out?
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Marty Doane
ITS RX-7 #13
CenDiv WMR
Speedsource has a MOTEC solution for the 2nd gen car.
AB
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Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6 (ITA project)
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com
Yikes - looks like the M4 is what I would need, and it retails for "only" $1840. I'll check with SS, but I don't think that'll be arriving on my doorstep any time soon.
Thanks Andy,
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Marty Doane
ITS RX-7 #13
CenDiv WMR
I thought both 2G EFI systems ran to rich at high rpm and had to be leaned for power. If you really are to lean, look for any fuel system related problems that would show up as a flow restriction during high flow conditions, fuel pump, filter, etc.. You may also be able to see this in the AFR as a function of rpm, or by running with a pressure gauge and seeing if you are loosing fuel pressure at high rpm.
I have logged and dynoed my A/F ratios on an S5 setup. With 40psi of fuel pressure mixtures over 5000rpm are in the 12:1 range. Leaning the mixture with the fuel pressure regulator to the point that A/F ratios approach 14:1 makes for a very lean (~17:1) condition below 5000rpm. That in and of itself isn't so much of a concern because we're all really only focusing on that 5000-8000+rpm range anyway. The big finding on the dyno however was that the power gain was very minor over 5000rpm when leaning the mixture out and the losses below 5000rpm where the ratios were lean was considerable.
The real gain in a custom ECU may lie in the ability to tweak the timing?
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Chris Ludwig
08 ITS RX7 CenDiv
There are a lot of possibilities that I've been thinking about, most of which will be addressed over the winter.
1) The dyno shop couldn't get my O2 sensor out to put his dyno sensor in, so he put it in the tail pipe. Said it should be close, but not close enough to tune from.
2) I've never checked the flow through my injectors.
3) I'm running a stock fuel pump and regulator.
4) This engine had about 140K on it when went untouched into the race car last year.
Measured A/F spikes to 15.0 at 3800, about 14.2 from 4000 to about 5500, dips to 13.4 at 6600, then back up to 13.8.
I'm building up an S5 engine this winter, and will dyno-tune it in the spring.
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Marty Doane
ITS RX-7 #13
CenDiv WMR
How can there even BE a MOTEC solution? Are you saying SS shoehorns a Motec ECU in the stock case and uses the stock wiring connectors?
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Paul D'Angelo
73 ITS CENDIV
Indy Region
http://www.iridiumracing.com
http://www.iridiumracing.com/Header3.jpg
sad isn't itQuote:
Originally posted by paulydee:
How can there even BE a MOTEC solution? Are you saying SS shoehorns a Motec ECU in the stock case and uses the stock wiring connectors?
dick
Why's it sad? It's legal as far as I can tell. Paul and I discussed this earlier in the year. The same idea went through my head when the rule was announced.
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Chris Ludwig
08 ITS RX7 CenDiv
I have no question about it's legality. It is just I wish it was not a direction that IT had to go. I do not know how it could have been prevented but I find it sad that the only way to go is a $2000 icu. It is sad that the effect of the rule limiting you to a stock ecu case and wiring had this result.
dick
That's what we get when there is no practical way to police a "stock" ECU rule. While many cars can be chipped, our’s cannot, hence the resulting open ECU rule. It's not desirable, but it is fair.
Except for those of us running CARBS! http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/rolleyes.gif
Drive Well.
Were any of the ITAC members on this forum on the comm. when the rule was changed? Why did you include the words "or replace?" It was one thing to allow mods to the stock ECU but quite another to allow completely new ones inside the box. How was that deemed "consistent with class philosophy?"
I was not. I personally hate the rule and would love the chance to put the genie back in the bottle.
AB
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Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6 (ITA project)
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com
I hear ya. I hate rules creep in IT. I have plates for my car for when I need to take it to a local shop. I still have a driver's window and working door locks so I can lock it up at night when it can't be in a garage.Quote:
Originally posted by ITSRX7:
I was not. I personally hate the rule and would love the chance to put the genie back in the bottle.
If porting and fuel testing are enforceable, then why not the ECU? Just put an inspection hole in the cover of the box. At least then it would have to *look* stock.
Some people will always spend to the limit of the rules. Stock = cheap. I think this rule should be fixed.
My car was also lean at high RPM, even with fuel pressure set in the 40's. Had my fuel injectors cleaned, and now I actually have to turn down the fuel pressure.
Marty, back to the issue, as Karl noted, if you are so lean you are loosing power, something is probably not right. Once you get this fixed, you will find that leaning the top end a bit will add 5-10Hp.
I don't think there is any way to police electronics, aside from handing out sealed units, which is only practical in single engine racing series. Even post run dynoing can easily be fooled.
Can a Mega Squirt system be built to fit inside the stock case - and with wires that plug into the stock harness? It's the cheapest system I've found - and seems to be used by other racers as well as on modified street cars.
I have seen the MegaSquirt installed in the stock ecu case and connecting to the stock wiring. If you didn't cut a hole for the DB9 plug and the LEDS, no one would even know it was there. With the current MegaSquirt you would have to run a distibuter though (if you wanted to keep everything hidden). AFAIK the MegaSquirt II should be able to control the ignition as well, and I think it is in final testing right now. Personally, I am waiting for the UltraMegaSquirt to be finished (the MegaSquirt II is an integral step towards UMS).
For anyone interested: http://www.msefi.com
There are several people with MS's in FCs.
AFAIK the MS includes (and requires) a MAP sensor, which the FC does not have (has MAF instead). The recommended MS configuration has a vacuum hose running to the MAP sensor on the circuit board (not IT legal, nor would a remote mounted MAP sensor be). Do you know if there's a way to use the MS with an ITS legal FC?Quote:
Originally posted by DAharon:
I have seen the MegaSquirt installed in the stock ecu case and connecting to the stock wiring. If you didn't cut a hole for the DB9 plug and the LEDS, no one would even know it was there. With the current MegaSquirt you would have to run a distibuter though (if you wanted to keep everything hidden). AFAIK the MegaSquirt II should be able to control the ignition as well, and I think it is in final testing right now. Personally, I am waiting for the UltraMegaSquirt to be finished (the MegaSquirt II is an integral step towards UMS).
For anyone interested: http://www.msefi.com
There are several people with MS's in FCs.
Thanks,
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Marty Doane
ITS RX-7 #13
CenDiv WMR
A GM MAP sensor (which most standalone systems use) has a three pin connector. +5V, GRN, and signal. The GRN and +5V are easy to source. You could easily use one of the connectors for any emissions related item that is not being used (the vacuum rats nest comes to mind) connected to the signal output of the sensor to route the signal back to the box and then reconfigure the wiring inside the box to get the signal to your EMS of choice. Come on Marty, gotta think outside the box. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
Mazda actually uses a MAP sensor in the stock system too. It's the "boost sensor". It's mounted on the right hand wheel well.
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Chris Ludwig
08 ITS RX7 CenDiv
How would adding a sensor be legal?Quote:
Originally posted by C. Ludwig:
A GM MAP sensor (which most standalone systems use) has a three pin connector. +5V, GRN, and signal. The GRN and +5V are easy to source. You could easily use one of the connectors for any emissions related item that is not being used (the vacuum rats nest comes to mind) connected to the signal output of the sensor to route the signal back to the box and then reconfigure the wiring inside the box to get the signal to your EMS of choice. Come on Marty, gotta think outside the box. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
Looks like a fun unit if one wants to start from scratch and play, and play, and .......Quote:
MegaSquirt FAQ:
3) Many different ignition solutions have been spawned from the base MegaSquirt, such as MSnS. The rotary engine ignition requirements, with trailing firing after the leading, has not yet been achieved using MegaSquirt or its derivatives.
There's an awful lot of things to worry about when designing and ECU, even if its only required to function primarily at WOT and idle.
I didn't think that was the right approach in this situation http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gifQuote:
Originally posted by C. Ludwig:
Come on Marty, gotta think outside the box. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
Ooh, didn't know that. Very interesting.Quote:
<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Mazda actually uses a MAP sensor in the stock system too. It's the \"boost sensor\". It's mounted on the right hand wheel well. </font>
Thanks,
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Marty Doane
ITS RX-7 #13
CenDiv WMR
Quote:
Originally posted by Geo:
How would adding a sensor be legal?
How would it not be? You can already add all the sensors you want for gauges and datalogging. You've also been able to use resistors inline to alter the values of OEM sensors for some time. The MAP sensor is a variable resistor.
And if that doesn't suit someone's legal needs the MAP sensor could be stored inside the box (at least of a 2nd gen RX-7) and hardwires to the EMS. That is the way the Autronic and Microtech system are setup anyway AFAIK.
[This message has been edited by C. Ludwig (edited December 07, 2004).]
[This message has been edited by C. Ludwig (edited December 07, 2004).]
Eh, bad pun...Quote:
Originally posted by Eagle7:
Quote:
Originally posted by C. Ludwig:
Come on Marty, gotta think outside the box. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
I didn't think that was the right approach in this situation http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif
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Chris Ludwig
08 ITS RX7 CenDiv
ITCS 17.1.4.D.1.a.6:Quote:
Originally posted by C. Ludwig:
How would it not be? You can already add all the sensors you want for gauges and datalogging. You've also been able to use resistors inline to alter the values of OEM sensors for some time. The MAP sensor is a variable resistor.
And if that doesn't suit someone's legal needs the MAP sensor could be stored inside the box (at least of a 2nd gen RX-7) and hardwires to the EMS. That is the way the Autronic and Microtech system are setup anyway AFAIK.
[This message has been edited by C. Ludwig (edited December 07, 2004).]
[This message has been edited by C. Ludwig (edited December 07, 2004).]
Fuel injected cars my alter or replace the engine management computer, or ECU, provided that all modifications are done within the original OEM ECU housing. On the stock (unmodified) OEM ECU connection to the wiring harness may be used. The allowance to modify the ECU in no way permits the addition of wiring, sensors, or piggybacked computers outside of the OEM ECU housing. The stock (unmodified) wiring harness must be used. Adjustable fuel pressure regulators are permitted.
OK, so you cannot add sensors for the ECU. Nor can you add wiring for the ECU. And if you put the MAP sensor inside the box, how will you get to the MAP sensor without illegally modifying the OEM ECU housing?
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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
"The allowance to modify the ECU in no way permits the addition of wiring, sensors, or piggybacked computers outside of the OEM ECU housing."
Eh, I forgot about that. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif I stand corrected on that note. However let me look at an ECU housing long enough and a way to worm a 1/8", hardshell vacuum line through there will appear.
And once again this rule has shown to me that it's a bad idea. The highest end systems ($$$) can be set up to run run with factory sensors. Making only the most expensive systems appropriate. There are relatively low cost alternatives that can not be used because of the wording. I hated to see the rule changed in the first place. But now that the cat is out of the bag the least expensive approach is to throw open the barn door IMO.
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Chris Ludwig
08 ITS RX7 CenDiv
Yeah, that's my take on it, too.Quote:
Originally posted by C. Ludwig:
...And once again this rule has shown to me that it's a bad idea. The highest end systems ($$$) can be set up to run run with factory sensors. Making only the most expensive systems appropriate. There are relatively low cost alternatives that can not be used because of the wording. I hated to see the rule changed in the first place. But now that the cat is out of the bag the least expensive approach is to throw open the barn door IMO.
BTW, not sure that snaking a vacuum line into the ECU housing would pass muster. More opinions on that?
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Marty Doane
ITS RX-7 #13
CenDiv WMR
Sounds like adding a MAP sensor in the box is adding a MAP sensor...or am I confused? Isn't addding sensors illegal?
Now...if you just take one of the larger ECU harness wires, and pull the conductors from within, you could have yourself a nice vacuum line....until vacuum was applied and it collapsed..
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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
Doesn't a circuit that "senses" a +5V signal, where that circuit did not exist before, mean that you have added a sensor? http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
It would also no longer be a stock, unmodified wiring harness.Quote:
Originally posted by lateapex911:
Now...if you just take one of the larger ECU harness wires, and pull the conductors from within, you could have yourself a nice vacuum line....until vacuum was applied and it collapsed..
Here's an idea though that I've thought about for a while....
Some folks have mentioned the Unichip, but that it would require a change in the rule. My question is would it? Can the circuit board of the Unichip fit inside a stock ECU box? If so, it should be possible to legally use one. It would require splicing the unichip between the ECU connector and the ECU board. A lot of work, but that's not the question.... http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif
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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
You guys have made my head hurt. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif Tell you what, I'm going to leave my box stock (the way I think it should stay...but that's neither here or there) and save the cash I'd dump on modifying it for the SP car I'd like to have someday. That way I know whatever I do will be legal.
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Chris Ludwig
08 ITS RX7 CenDiv