Format Considerations for 2009

I know the ink has hardly dried on the 2008 event, but we are already looking ahead to 2009 and how we can make it better. These still need to be discussed and approved by our Race Board, but this is what I'm thinking about:

1. Return to eight run groups (from the current nine) - leaves more time in the day for "mishaps" that inevitably occur, plus it allows us to push Friday's first qualifying session back to 20 minutes (it was 15 this year).

"Your" groups would be:
. ASM, SSM
. ITB, ITC, ITT, SRX
. GP (if invited), IT7, ITA
. DP, ITR, ITS, ITU, SPU

2. Make Friday's second qualifier a 7-lap (or 15-minute) "qualifying race". Finishing order in the race doesn't matter, but if you turn a better time during that session than in the morning, that lap sets your grid spot for Saturday's Championship race. Grid for this short race will be determined by Friday morning times and it will NOT be a split start.

3. Saturday's Championship races will be 20 laps, with split starts as appropriate. If all goes well, we'll be able to start drinking by 4:15 in the afternoon. Since things seldom go well, however, this gives the stewards a LOT of leeway for extending the race clock as needed.

4. If the interest is there, the Bonus race on Sunday will be for "Trans-Am" type cars.

5. Sunday's Enduro will still be three hours.

What I need to know from y'all is whether you'd rather race during the second session on Friday or make it a traditional qualifying session. The workers like it when we race and the spectators certainly like it better when we race, but I need to know what y'all think.

Let me know...

I wasn't there this year (insert sad banana) but some initial thoughts:

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"Your" groups would be:

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Putting DP with *any* IT class eliminates the possibility of double entries from the class. For example, I share a car with a buddy in ITS; it is (was?) our intention for each of us to drive, one in ITS and one in DP. Unfortunately, I can't offer a credible alternative, simply an FYI.

And, if DP were moved out of an IT group, it would need to be done such that impound would not affect ability to drive both.

Otherwise, groupings look good.

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Make Friday's second qualifier a 7-lap (or 15-minute) "qualifying race". Finishing order in the race doesn't matter, but if you turn a better time during that session than in the morning, that lap sets your grid spot for Saturday's Championship race.

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That's basically a qualifying session, but with a gridded start, a pace lap, and a briskly-waved green flag at S/F.

Honestly speaking, knowing this, I will be "late" to the grid and will get myself released from pit lane well after everyone else is well past T4/5 area.

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...whether you'd rather race during the second session on Friday or make it a traditional qualifying session.

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The underlying factor here is that if starting position of the main sprint race is dependent on the finishing position in this qualifying race, then I'll race; if it has no other realistic affect other than lap times, then I'm maximizing my opportunities for improving lap times.

The primary issue with this idea is that the ARRC sprint race is so important that I'm not going to risk damage on qualifying incidents; I'm going to use the session to maximize my advantage for the sprint race.

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The workers like it when we race and the spectators certainly like it better when we race, but I need to know what y'all think.

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I agree: I'd rather race than toodle around. But there has to be compelling reason to do it. The solution is to adopt an IT Fest-type format, where the qualifying race is truly a qualifying race, and sets the tone for the final race. But, however, that means evolving the ARRC format from a single-race "sprint for the gold" into a multi-race points system, where the ARRC champion becomes the person that averages best finishes between the two.

So, I suggest the first course of action is to determine that last idea: do you want the ARRC to be a one-race sprint for the win, or do you want to change it to a multi-race format? I'm not offering an opinion either way, simply putting it out there for discussion. Once you've answered that, then the other question on qualifying format answers itself.

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If all goes well, we'll be able to start drinking by 4:15 in the afternoon.

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See? Now you're talkin'...

GA

I suppose we could put DP in with the BP, ITO, ST, TCC group. We had one DP car this year (an ex-WC Toyota that qualified on the pole with a 1:40+ but had problems on lap 1 of the race), so it's not like they'd be in the way of the bigger cars. And since the big cars would race after lunch, Impound would not be a problem either. If someone wanted to double-dip with an ITC car and DP, however, that would present more of a problem (but then I guess THEY could always run ITC & ITU?).

Like you, I would probably be late to the Grid for the second session as well. Those that want to race (and there are those that do) could do so, those that want to maximize their opportunity for a hot lap could do so, and those that set a good lap in the AM session want to start drinking at noon could do so. I DO try to please everyone! :rolleyes:

I guess the question would be, "if we went to this format would that make you stay away?"

I'm not good at ciphering, so the ARRC will continue to be a "one shot at all the marbles" kind of event. We still have the ITTC for those that want a series-type points system.

Oh, and thank you for your input! :happy204:

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Originally Posted by Butch Kummer

"if we went to this format would that make you stay away?"

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Nothing short of a blowed-up (or crunched-up) car tends to keep me away from that event. I highly doubt you could could f**k it up bad enough to keep most people away... :)

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Oh, and thank you for your input!

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Da nada...

I'll echo what Greg said, but toss an opinion in too.

IF you go with a race type format, I will find clear track to try and hit my lap, IF the track is fast or IF I screwed the usually faster AM session. I won't be racing, as it's counter productive to keeping my eye on the prize: The ARRC sprint race.

Also, I think it's GOOD that the ARRC is the sprint format, and the IT Fest is the series format. They compliment each other well.

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Originally Posted by Greg Amy

Nothing short of a blowed-up (or crunched-up) car tends to keep me away from that event. I highly doubt you could could f**k it up bad enough to keep most people away... :)

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Oh I've got a ton of ways to f**k things up that I haven't even touched on yet! :cool:

Right now I've got a bunch of stock car drivers that are HIGHLY p!ssed because their race was checkered short of the prescribed distance for the third year in a row. Granted it's because they keep running into each other, but should the entire group be penalized for the actions of a few? I understand the actions of the stewards (a 3000-pound car hitting the Turn 12 wall at 100 mph is hard to ignore!), but traveling 1000's of miles for an eleven-lap race tends to leave a bad taste in your mouth.

I don't like the qualifying race idea.

IMO that is part of what differentiates the IT Fest and the ARRC. IT Fest requries you to be fast early and consistent all weekend. ARRC requires that you be fast - damn fast - when it counts. We have short enough track time, even at 20min as it is, to have to worry about folks on track in other classes 'racing'.

I am cool with the 8 group thing, though it may impact my group. It seems that you are just trying to fit 10# into a 5# bag with the 9 group format.

The event is really good as is IMO. Changes are not a bad idea, but not at the expense of changing the identity of the ARRC.

My take is that things are pretty well run as they are. The best suggestion I have is to move the Enduro up on Sunday to as soon after "quite time" as possible. I think some folks are leaving that use to run the enduro when it was earlier. Moving up an hour can make a difference in both towing and flights home.
You might take a look at where the entrants are from for the Enduro.

Overall I thought it was a great weekend. You always hope that drivers will use better judgement then sometimes happens in the ARRC race. Unfortunatly you probably should expect some body work to be done on your car at the end of the weekend. I got away clean and won some wood too, so I thought it was great.
Thanks to all of the RAtlanta and Atl Region folks for their hard work.

(Fletcher is mellowing!):happy204:

Yeah my only (admittedly selfish) complaint is that ITB and ITC racers that chose to run in the enduro had the distinct pleasure of being in the very first session every single day, and the very last session of the whole weekend. I know someone has to be 'that group' and it was our turn, but boy was I wore out when we got home.

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Originally Posted by Butch Kummer

Oh I've got a ton of ways to f**k things up that I haven't even touched on yet! :cool:

Right now I've got a bunch of stock car drivers that are HIGHLY p!ssed because their race was checkered short of the prescribed distance for the third year in a row. Granted it's because they keep running into each other, but should the entire group be penalized for the actions of a few? I understand the actions of the stewards (a 3000-pound car hitting the Turn 12 wall at 100 mph is hard to ignore!), but traveling 1000's of miles for an eleven-lap race tends to leave a bad taste in your mouth.

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I understood the races to be either a 20 laps or a specified timed race which ever came 1st? So everyone should realize it takes time to scrape cars off walls, or clean up the track when they play demolition derby........or am I missing something?:shrug:

I pretty much agree with all the above... the proposed 8-group split is the same, for me, as '07, which worked fine, so no big deal there... though I would push to keep ITB split gridded as this year...

As for the remainder - gridding our Q2 session this year made things quite wonky for me; I ended up spending all my time trying to clear track. Instead of improving from Q1, I ended up going wheel to wheel when I didn't really need to/want to. So I found that to be quite counter-productive. Either make it a qualifying race as in the IT-Fest, or just do it as a normal qual session. But I agree with the previous posters, it should remain as a single sprint race, so just run a normal qual session.

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Originally Posted by Butch Kummer

2. Make Friday's second qualifier a 7-lap (or 15-minute) "qualifying race".

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Personally, I'd prefer a "regular" qualifying session. Mainly because it's a bit unusual for everyone to be out at the same time for qualifying, at least after the first few laps. That makes it easier to get a stretch of clear track for a flyer. However, I've never driven at the ARRC, though I hope to next year, in either SPU (Baby Grand or Busa Grande') or IT7.

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Originally Posted by Butch Kummer

4. If the interest is there, the Bonus race on Sunday will be for "Trans-Am" type cars.

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I really enjoy watching the ground pounders out there, but this might keep some of the wings-n-things crowd from showing up. However, the last few years, the ground pounders have brought in more entries than the wings-n-things crowd, IIRC.

BTW, what does SSM stand for (I know ASM is ARRC Spec Miata)? And what are the differences, if any, between ASM and SSM?

I was also surprised that we didn't do victory laps this year. It did make traffic flow around the winner's circle a lot easier, though. And it probably let us reduce the down time between races.

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Originally Posted by Butch Kummer

Oh I've got a ton of ways to f**k things up that I haven't even touched on yet! :cool:

Right now I've got a bunch of stock car drivers that are HIGHLY p!ssed because their race was checkered short of the prescribed distance for the third year in a row. Granted it's because they keep running into each other, but should the entire group be penalized for the actions of a few? I understand the actions of the stewards (a 3000-pound car hitting the Turn 12 wall at 100 mph is hard to ignore!), but traveling 1000's of miles for an eleven-lap race tends to leave a bad taste in your mouth.

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Your not building my confidence up Butch. :blink: I can already hear the stewards yelling at me. " Why the H#ll did you invite them stock cars". :D

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Originally Posted by dj10

I understood the races to be either a 20 laps or a specified timed race which ever came 1st? So everyone should realize it takes time to scrape cars off walls, or clean up the track when they play demolition derby........or am I missing something?:shrug:

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They thought we should have gotten a Black Flag All and been given the opportunity to sit on Pit Road while time expired. What they didn't know is how hard the guy had hit and that Medical was being EXTREMELY cautious about getting him out of the car.

Going back to eight run groups will give the stewards a lot more flexibility in making up time when the inevitable incident occurs. It will also allow more time for the Victory Laps, which Laurie dropped because she was concerned about the time windows.

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Originally Posted by TAC

Your not building my confidence up Butch. :blink: I can already hear the stewards yelling at me. " Why the H#ll did you invite them stock cars". :D

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It's not the GTA cars, it's the SPO cars! :cool:

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Originally Posted by CaptainWho

BTW, what does SSM stand for (I know ASM is ARRC Spec Miata)? And what are the differences, if any, between ASM and SSM?

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SSM is "Showroom Stock Miata" and essentially eliminates "built" engines plus is more restrictive than SM in other areas as well. As Jim Thill said, "It's what Spec Miata was meant to be." I was thinking we'd have guys double-dipping in ASM and SSM, but the reality is there is very little of that even in DC Region where SSM is very strong. There's actually more sharing of rides between SM and ITA, so that's why I'll split them as far as possible in the future.

Finally, we'll be rotating the groups each year, but the IT-type cars will always race in the morning to give the maximum time possible to clear Impound. And next year look for the "Big" IT cars to be the dew-sweepers for Enduro qualifying as well.

I vote against any kind of qualifying race format for the ARRC. There is just too much risk of dinging the car for no reason.

Actually, it is one of reasons that I have not attended the IT Fest at Mid-Ohio, it't not the main reason but one of several. ($4.60/gal diesel was probably the biggy this year)

I'm not sure gridding a qualifying session by the previous sesions times gets you anything. Being with cars of similar speed doesn't guarrentee a clear track particularly if the other car is in another class with mis-matched straight and cornering speeds.

The split start for the ITB/ITC race was much appreciated. It kept conflicting class traffic separated until everyone was spaced out. Three of us had a fantastic race for what ultimately became third place. I hope the practice continues regardless who the chief steward is.

I'm looking forward to next year.

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Originally Posted by IPRESS

My take is that things are pretty well run as they are. The best suggestion I have is to move the Enduro up on Sunday to as soon after "quite time" as possible. I think some folks are leaving that use to run the enduro when it was earlier. Moving up an hour can make a difference in both towing and flights home.

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We pulled out of RA at 6:15 I think, on sunday. And we had the car in the trailer strapped down and ready to go in about 10 minutes after it was released from impound. Its not bad for me, I only have about an hour and a half tow home, but I can see how some people would skip the enduro on sunday because it runs so late.

And Im all for running one less group if we bring back the victory laps, I missed that this year.

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Originally Posted by movingchicane

And Im all for running one less group if we bring back the victory laps, I missed that this year.

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+1

Also, the date is something to consider, if possible. Having it so close to the 13 Hr meant some folk couldn't turn things around fast enough. I know 3 guys that I had on the hook that slipped off because of the tight timeframe. Not sure if thats fixable, just throwing it out there.

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Originally Posted by lateapex911

Also, the date is something to consider, if possible. Having it so close to the 13 Hr meant some folk couldn't turn things around fast enough. I know 3 guys that I had on the hook that slipped off because of the tight timeframe. Not sure if thats fixable, just throwing it out there.

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Besides it being our traditional date (and we were here first! :026:), both events are at the mercy of the tracks when it comes to scheduling. I do know there are NO open weekends on Road Atlanta's 2009 calendar.

And believe it or not, the weather here in Atlanta is traditionally better in early November than it is in late October.

The biggest suggestion/gripe I have lately about all races is.... WE (SCCA Drivers/Members) are paying for the track rental. We all want "track time" however we never want to use ALL of it up. Why don't we schedule "hardship" type practice sessions at the end of the day for those that want/need to use it? We always complain about track time, but never maximize it when we have that option. If your schedule runs until 4:15 and we have the track until 6:00 then run some hardship sessions for those that are still racing the next day. You will then have a window to run races late if needed because you can just shorten the hardship sessions.

Those that want to drink earlier can just go to the spectator area and start watching the races and enjoying a few (you can do that right?) lol

Raymond "Butch I only bring this up because you suggest the 8 race format to shorten the day.... As a memember wanting more track time I wish we had the NASCAR "happy hour" format." Blethen

The eight race format will only shorten the day if there are no FCYs or BFAs, which has not happened since I've been involved with the event. The stewards were very aware of the time constraints presented by the nine group format, so they discarded the Victory Laps and checker the Group 8 race early because of everything they had to clean up. Even with that, the sun was setting over Spectator Hill (and blinding those coming through the Esses) in the closing laps of the Group Nine race.

Had we only run eight groups this year, the Big Noise guys would have gotten their full 20 laps (which means my butt would not be on fire :eek:) and we would have finished the day around 5:00 PM.

Butch (Thank you for your input :D) Kummer

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Originally Posted by Butch Kummer

Had we only run eight groups this year, the Big Noise guys would have gotten their full 20 laps (which means my butt would not be on fire :eek:) and we would have finished the day around 5:00 PM.

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You could just threaten them that, if they can't learn to drive on 8 cylinders, they'll all get 4 wires pulled on grid and they can learn to play nice that way!

Cheaper than switching 'em all to ITC cars... :rolleyes: :shrug: