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Proposed PRO-IT rule changes have been posted on http://atl-scca.org/. Please read them and send in your comments!
I would like to point out that if we instated a weight rewards rule for pro-it, those of us running pro-it and sarrc in the same weekend would have juggle ballast and scale and align the car between each session. that's impossible for most of us to do.
Reward weight? That would make Wittel the next Harrison Bergeron.
I'm here to ask you to visit the Atlanta Region website to read the proposed rule changes for 2006. We want your comments. You can cuss and discuss the rules here but please give me constructive thoughts and suggestions to: [email protected]
I want your comments by Jan. 1, 2006. Thanks, Sandy
Sandy,
I was curious as to the motivation behind the rule changes. At this point I do not have an opinion, mainly due to not running in the series yet, but I was looking forward to running a couple of races. Can you give a short rundown on what is trying to be accomplished?
Thanks,
It is just an attempt to give everyone an opportunity to contribute to the rule making process. We review and the Atlanta Region BOD vote on the rules every year. We usually change the entry fee and last year we included SM. This year we wanted to include ITC and then someone suggested the weight reward. I included a change on paying out money on races, since the fourth and fifth checks are generally small amounts. We do need to change the entry fee to keep up with increases in fees to SCCA National.
Katman, NICE Vonnegut reference.
Why reward weight in a company series to the SARRC? Doesn't make sense to me at all.
I personally don't have a problem with the rewards weight. Great equalizer of sorts. Weight to be placed anywhere on passenger side floor front or back.Quote:
Originally posted by JeffYoung@Dec 27 2005, 02:58 AM
Katman, NICE Vonnegut reference.
Why reward weight in a company series to the SARRC? Doesn't make sense to me at all.
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200-300 pounds over the course of season would be a great tool for some I hope.....
Minimum weight plus rewards ?
Designated pre measurd blocks of reward ?
225 max...
Why not? Bolt in/out for the SARRC races, shouldn't that big a deal.
David Spillman
I agree it would be a great idea, if it was implemented for sarrc and ecr races as well. Simply unbolting 200 lbs will throw off crossweights a few percent easy, which would drasticly affect handling.Quote:
Originally posted by dspillrat@Dec 26 2005, 10:55 PM
I personally don't have a problem with the rewards weight. Great equalizer of sorts. Weight to be placed anywhere on passenger side floor front or back.
200-300 pounds over the course of season would be a great tool for some I hope.....
Minimum weight plus rewards ?
Designated pre measurd blocks of reward ?
225 max...
Why not? Bolt in/out for the SARRC races, shouldn't that big a deal.
David Spillman
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I was the person that originally suggested the Weight Rewards.
Pro-IT is supposed to be the "showcase race" of Atlanta Region race weekends. For the past few years I've found myself watching the start or each race to make sure everyone got through Turn 1 okay, then I'd return to working on my car while Chet Wittel decimated the field yet again. If I'm doing that as a race fan, what's the average spectator doing? When I thought about what would make me watch the entire race, not knowing the outcome after the first turn was high on the list. I'm also thinking Weight Rewards might encourage more third thru fifth place drivers to run more often, thus increasing car counts at the pointy end of the field.
Many (if not most) of the front-runners in Pro-IT do not run our SARRC races, so there's no need to worry about adding and removing the weight over the course of the weekend. I'd also guess that the average increase over the course of a season would be around 100#, which could be added using fuel and relatively small amounts of ballast. And if someone DID carry the max of 225# and STILL managed to win, I'd definitely be watching because the next Ayrton Senna would be on the track that day! :)
I have been following so I will throw in a couple pennies.Quote:
Originally posted by Butch Kummer@Dec 27 2005, 08:15 AM
I was the person that originally suggested the Weight Rewards.
Pro-IT is supposed to be the "showcase race" of Atlanta Region race weekends. For the past few years I've found myself watching the start or each race to make sure everyone got through Turn 1 okay, then I'd return to working on my car while Chet Wittel decimated the field yet again. If I'm doing that as a race fan, what's the average spectator doing? When I thought about what would make me watch the entire race, not knowing the outcome after the first turn was high on the list. I'm also thinking Weight Rewards might encourage more third thru fifth place drivers to run more often, thus increasing car counts at the pointy end of the field.
Many (if not most) of the front-runners in Pro-IT do not run our SARRC races, so there's no need to worry about adding and removing the weight over the course of the weekend. I'd also guess that the average increase over the course of a season would be around 100#, which could be added using fuel and relatively small amounts of ballast. And if someone DID carry the max of 225# and STILL managed to win, I'd definitely be watching because the next Ayrton Senna would be on the track that day! :)
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In my mind, rewards weight is meant to equalize cars. I know that you only get it if you win but read what you wrote again...
This appears to be the "Chet" rule. I sure as heck would be sour if I put as much time, effort and money into my "Pro IT" program only to have someone try to equalize ME, not the system.
Understand also that the top finishers are going to get weight as well, so the net difference in penalty is much smaller than the gross number. So who benefits? The finishers OFF the podium. I guess the fact this is a proposal is proof some think that is a good thing.
I just have a fundamental issue with penalizing someone who is just better, with better stuff. Having said that, if we (the ITAC/CRB) can get the E36 classification right, you may not have to do this. And having said that, even if we do, the car will still be at the top of the food chain and Chet's ability and prep will still find the checkers.
(On Edit) The more I think about it, the more I think participation number may increase due to the idea. For the wrong reasons and at the expense of the wrong people mind you, but it may happen.
AB
This is very much modeled after the Rewards Weight program used in World Challenge so yes, it IS aimed at making the competition closer by penalizing ("rewarding") well-prepared cars that are driven well. Part of the reason WC works as well as it does is because of that program.
The reason it might work for Pro-IT is because the series is self-contained and controlled by an Administrator that attends and monitors all the events (similar to WC). It is much more difficult for ECR or SARRC because there is no one person or team that follows the series to all events.
Is it true competition? No. The guys Chet (and others that continuously win in other classes, I use Chet because he consistently wins the overall) beats should get their act together and run him heads up. For whatever reason that has not happened so far, and I was simply thinking about why I don't watch the Pro-IT races flag-to-flag.
What appeals to the American public? As evidenced by the success of NASCAR and the NFL (the undisputed kings of parity), thinking that "your" team has a chance to win brings the spectators out.
Butch your focus seems to be on the spectators, and I'm not sure why. Pro-it is a fantastic series, and I am extremely grateful to those who spend the countless hours doing the behind the scenes work so that I can have a cool place to race and win a little money while I'm at it. The one thing pro-it is not is a spectator series. It's not televised, there is little to no magazine coverage, the few spectators that do show up probably don't even realize what race it is they are watching, they are just there to watch some races. I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of spectators show up to watch the one driver they know, and don't really care what anyone else is doing or even realize it's part of a year long series.
Adding reward weight will not change this. If you want pro-it to be a spectator series then let's have a race on ALMS weekends, or at least find some way to make it a little easier for the average sports car enthusiast to find out about it and become a true fan. Then let's take some of that cash from ticket sales and dump it into the pro-it pot, and then we can start adding ballast to make the racing more exciting. Until that happens, let's focus on what is in the best interest of all the racers, not the spectators.
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The more I think about it, the more I think participation number may increase due to the idea. For the wrong reasons and at the expense of the wrong people mind you, but it may happen.
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This appears to be the "Chet" rule. I sure as heck would be sour if I put as much time, effort and money into my "Pro IT" program only to have someone try to equalize ME, not the system.
Pretty much summed up my thoughts.Quote:
Originally posted by crushed@Dec 27 2005, 05:43 PM
Until that happens, let's focus on what is in the best interest of all the racers, not the spectators.
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-Mark
My focus is on the spectators because that is the way Pro-IT has been pitched to the Atlanta Region Board for a number of years - as our "showcase series". The pro Pro-IT faction is willing to absorb the cost of putting on the Pro-IT series because it's the feature race of our weekends and gives us a focal point for pursuing sponsorship. It should come as no surprise that with the prize money being paid out, the portion of the entry fee retained by the region is significantly less than with SARRC or ECR, so the series needs to justify it's existence in some other way.
The reason all our Atlanta Region weekends are spectator events is because our contract with Road Atlanta requires it. If we can increase spectator count (i.e. - sell more tickets) we have additional bargaining power when contract renewal time comes up. We have limited control in making regional or National racing more appealing to the general public ("too many classes", "I can't see the whole track", "who are these guys?", etc.), but we DO have control over Pro-IT.
There are those that want to drop Pro-IT altogether. I am NOT among them. In order to answer those that think we're too IT-centric already, however, we need to make Pro-IT into something that measureably adds to our racing weekends. Spectator count is one such measure. I agree Pro-IT is not broken, but some tweaking to make is more interesting is certainly worth consideration.
Can we vote on how much weight Chet gets and weld it in!!! :D
That is an interesting perspective Butch, and frankly one I had not thought about. I do still think that adding a rewards weight is the wrong way to go at this time.
If we want more people to show up to watch the races, we need more people to know about the races and the series. The cheapest and easiest thing to do is just to make a nice fan-friendly website that explains the series, schedule, and points system and has race reports, driver bios, race photos and video clips, forums, etc. Then promote it in local magazines (like creative loafing and those sort of things) and require everyone in the series to run a banner with the site on it. If there was an effort to really draw in spectators and grow the series I would be willing to shuffle ballast in and out of the car all weekend, but rewards weight alone won't do the trick.
I know the FWD guys will kill me for saying this, but how about standing starts? It is a blast in the car and watching from the stands, and would definitely make the series unique.
Even a proper awards presentation would be nice, do the podium ceremony and victory lap for every race, not just the ARRC. I bet most of the spectators don't have a clue who won each individual class. If it's marketed as the premier race why not treat it like one?
I like the idea of standing starts...I would also like to see pro IT go beyond ATL region and maybe visit regions further south and north...ITC definitely has a place there and rewards weight seems a little much unless there are more tracks and events for the year...you need event count to balance rewards weight thru a years racing...
Spectators? You mean the racers, crews, and families that are already there for other classes/sessions? Seems like the spec classes should already be more spectator friendly, and me no think we get any spectators for them either. Maybe because there's no promotion, and I'm not sure you'd ever get enough spectators to justify a promotion budget. I don't even have an opinion on rewards weight but I tend to agree with a previous poster that first you need to make the club happy. Club Racing has never been about spectators, IMHO, its about beating everybody else under the same rules. Not about putting on a show.
I like the way crushed thinks. Standing starts, victory laps, podium celebrations, champagne showers, scantily dressed trophy babes - Whoa! How’d that get in there?
Tomorrow (1/2) I will finalize the 2006 rules for the Atlanta Region BOD approval. Thanks to those of you that commented here and also send emails to [email protected]
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Tomorrow (1/2) I will finalize the 2006 rules for the Atlanta Region BOD approval. Thanks to those of you that commented here and also send emails to [email protected]
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Personally I think we should wait and see what the weight changes will do and then decide where we need to take the weights too.But Personally when you are comparing it to WC you are comparing Apples to Oranges with IT when you think about it. There are a few teams in WC that dont have fully built to the limits cars but the top 20 that race every race are fully built to the max cars so the "rewards" weight is good for them. But why penalize the IT guys who have a very well built car compared to the little Ferio that always brings up the back? to me that just doesnt make any sense.
I read somewhere on this forum that the weight rewards was poo-pooed. Things will remain the same from GCR weights to Pro-IT as listed in the 2006 GCR. ITC will be included this year, also.Quote:
Personally I think we should wait and see what the weight changes will do and then decide where we need to take the weights too.But Personally when you are comparing it to WC you are comparing Apples to Oranges with IT when you think about it. There are a few teams in WC that dont have fully built to the limits cars but the top 20 that race every race are fully built to the max cars so the "rewards" weight is good for them. But why penalize the IT guys who have a very well built car compared to the little Ferio that always brings up the back? to me that just doesnt make any sense.
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