Rotary Engine Eligibility for Super Touring Light

I'm hearing rumors -- probably third-or-more-hand -- that rotary-engined IT-compliant cars are being rejected entry in Super Touring Light for the June Sprints. As I understand it, this is due to the following regulation:

9.1.4.B "Eligibility" (p456 in May GCR):

GCR listed ITS, ITA, ITB, and ITC cars with reciprocating piston engines of 2 liters and less engine displacement, 1985 and newer, may compete in STL under their current IT specifications.

Emphasis mine. I'm hearing (remember, all rumor) is that this is being "interpreted" to mean that any ITS-C car with a rotary engine is excluded from running STL. While one can argue this is technically correct, in realty it is patently incorrect.

It is technically correct that any rotary-engined ITS-C car is not explicitly allowed into STL via the above-mentioned IT allowance. However, this "interpretation" fails to take into account 9.1.4.3.I.2 (p491, May GCR):

The Mazda 12A is permitted at 2225 lbs; Mazda 13B is permitted at 2615 lbs; no porting is permitted in either engine. The 5th and 6th intake port actuators and valves may be removed or disabled. The Mazda Renesis engine is permitted at 3000 lbs.

You will notice that the weights for the 12A and 13B, after you add the 2.5% for RWD, match that of the existing weights for the ITA and ITS RX-7s. This is no coincidence. You will also note that any car compliant to Improved Touring regulations is also compliant to Super Touring regulations (i.e., there's no mods allowed in IT that are not allowed in ST; if you see any, then let us know so we can adjust the regs accordingly.)

Ergo...if you want to run your IT-compliant rotary-engined car in Super Touring Light at the June Sprints, don't confuse the registrars by saying yours is an IT car, just tell them it's a Super Touring Light car with a rotary engine.

And go have fun.

GA

Cant do that.

Can,t enter a car in ST as an ST car with IT compiant stuff. All or nothing.

ST cars require a cell if the Fuel tank is located behind the rear axle. IT cars dont require a cell.

If you enter your IT compliant RX7 as an STx car, not under the IT allowance, than a cell will be required and you will not be copmpliant.

Not trying to start a fight,just stateing what I read. Maybe I mised something.

Oh yeah, Allow Mild Porting to a rotary in STL and youve got a good car for class. I mean Pistons get stuff, Why no love for the rotary????? :dead_horse:Ok that might start another fight.

Dan
IT7,STL or EP

Spoke with the IN-House steward on the definition of the latest rule change regarding Purpose and Philosophy

STL is a tuner type class for Recipracating piston engines of 2.0 liters or less

Recipracating Engine An internal combustion enigine that converts the driven action of one or more PISTONS to rotary movement.

Rotary Engine A NON Recripracating Engine

It also states what Greg said above. That ITS-C cars with Recipracating Piston Engines

So it appears that the Rotary car allowance was changed to disalow rotary engines in STL. Mistake, I hope so.

Dan

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while I am sure the intent of your interpretation Greg is spot on,
as an semi-professional lawyer, I am afraid the words do not support
it, and will need to be changed.

specifically, the eligibility section 9.1.4.B is where the IT allowance is defined.

in the allowed engine section 9.1.4.3.I.2 the rotary engines are
specifically allowed, but there is no direct tie-in to IT cars,
and so that means that the rotary engines are allowed for ST builds

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without the fuel cell AND a dash cross bar on the cage, (I have neither)
an IT build will not meet the other ST specs
so... what needs to be proposed is a change to the wording
.

FROM

"Any GCR listed IT cars, 1985 and newer, under their current IT
specifications may compete in STU. GCR listed ITS, ITA, ITB,
and ITC cars with reciprocating piston engines of 2 liters and less
engine displacement, 1985 and newer, may compete in STL under
their current IT specifications"

TO

"Any GCR listed IT cars, 1985 and newer, under their current IT
specifications may compete in STU. GCR listed ITS, ITA, ITB,
and ITC cars with reciprocating piston engines of 2 liters and less
engine displacement, or rotary engines as specified in 9.1.4.3.I.2,
[S]1985 and newer,[/S] may compete in STL under their current IT specifications"

and I guess while we are at it, we should eliminate the 1985 redundancy, since
IT cars aren't allowed engine swaps, there is no need to invoke the 1985 rule
independently for the car and the engine.

so, if nobody else has proposed this yet, I will have to go learn how... Greg, will you take the ball for me?

.

Letter number #8233 is currently waiting to be reviewed by the ST committee.
After the ST committee reviews your letter, the CRB will review it, and it will
proceed to Fastrack.

Just getting in from Summit Point, haven't read everything (or your email, Dan). But I forgot about the safety items. Otherwise the IT RX-7s are compliant to ST prep regs...no need to write letters, the STAC is currently debating how to resolve that prior to the Sprints.

On a purely personal opinion note, absolutely positively not reflecting the opinion of any other member of the STAC or CRB, Super Touring Light is a class for 2L and under piston engines, but rotary engines are given a place to play in it. Nothing more. If you want opportunity to have reasonable competitiveness, go build for STU (Street Port or Bridge Port) or Production (Street Port). But if you want stock ports and limited chassis mods, Improved Touring is your class (while you can still get parts...RIP Wankel Rotary Engine!!!) and you'll be able to enter STL.

Or you can volunteer to replace me on the STAC ;).

GA, from the iPhone...

.

Greg, Do you think this will be sorted out by Memorial Day NHMS? ... Bob Blake and I are trying to decide where to run.

.

Yes. I believe this is supposed to show up in the next Fastrack. As I understand it, the ITS and ITA cars will be explicitly listed on the new Alternate Vehicle Allowances table.

But even if they aren't, I can't imagine anyone even noticing, let alone giving you any grief over it. You've been doing it now for, what, two years...?

GA

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lawtonglenn

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Greg, Do you think this will be sorted out by Memorial Day NHMS? ... Bob Blake and I are trying to decide where to run.

.

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It will be okay Glenn, if anyone questions it let me know.

(I wonder if Dick is bias in any way? <_<)

Busting balls,
Mickey

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mossaidis

(I wonder if Dick is bias in any way? <_<)

Busting balls,
Mickey

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Why yes I do, I am biased toward Truth, Justice and the American way.:D

Trying to figure out these ST rules for a friend... I am not sure which of the 3 options are legal.

1.)Can I run an ITR legal Mazda RX8 in STL at 3000lbs?
2.)Can I run a renesis engine in an ITS,A,B,or C car at 3000lbs no matter what kind of car it is?
3.)Or can I only run the RX8 as an STL car with all STL requirements like fuel cell, 17" x 7" rims ect...

If I have other options please let me know... kinda confused at this point as the onlyt thing that is clear is that "The Mazda Renesis engine is permitted at 3000 lbs"

Thanks,
Stephen

>>> 1.)Can I run an ITR legal Mazda RX8 in STL at 3000lbs?

No. ITR-spec cars are not compliant to the STCS.

>>> 2.)Can I run a renesis engine in an ITS,A,B,or C car at 3000lbs no matter what kind of car it is?

Yes, as long as it's a Mazda, with RWD adder as appropriate, and as long as it's compliant to all other open ST regs (e.g., Renesis in a first-gen RX-7 will require an FIA-spec fuel cell). It is *not* compliant under the ITCS allowance (unless there's an ITA/B/C/S compliant car that uses the Renesis).

>>> 3.)Or can I only run the RX8 as an STL car with all STL requirements like fuel cell, 17" x 7" rims ect...

Yes, at 3000 pounds plus the 2.5% RWD adder. Make sure the stock cams are within class limits.

GA

Just Great!
Now I have to find some new camshafts for my rotary!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Greg Amy

>>>...compliant to all other open ST regs (e.g., Renesis in a first-gen RX-7 will require an FIA-spec fuel cell). It is *not* compliant under the ITCS allowance ...
GA

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and a roll cage dash bar, correct?

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Can I run in any st class as a world challenge car? That way I dont have to add a fuel cell? Needing a fuel cell eliminates any RX8 from ever participating.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lawtonglenn

and a roll cage dash bar, correct?

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Among other likely things, yes. You've looked through the regs; is there anything else you can think of, Glenn?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by StephenB

Can I run in any st class as a world challenge car?

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Right now we're only classifying 2009-and-prior spec World Challenge Touring cars into STU. Each has to be explicitly allowed upon request. Send us the specs and the VTS and we can do that.

If your car is later than 2009-spec, send in a request anyway and we'll consider it. Don't forget that VTS... - GA

Quote:

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Needing a fuel cell eliminates any RX8 from ever participating.

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Does the RX-8 have the fuel tank in front of the rear axle? Then it's fine. The first-gen RX-7 has the fuel tank hanging out back, so to put a Renesis into a first-gen RX-7 it'll need a cell.

GA

Hi Greg, Sorry to be a pain in this one

You dont need to add the RWD adder to rotary cars in STL as its specifically said that the 12a is 2280, The 13b is 2600 and the Renisis is 3000.

Sorry

Dan

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dano77

You dont need to add the RWD adder to rotary cars in STL as its specifically said that the 12a is 2280, The 13b is 2600 and the Renisis is 3000.

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You're mistaken Dan. First, the base weights for the 12A, 13B, and Renesis are 2225, 2615, and 3000 respectively. Second, those are base weights for the engine installed, ignoring the chassis it's installed into. Same goes for the piston engine table/weights: piston engined cars get a weight based on displacement. Once you've chosen your base engine - and thus, the base weight - chassis-specific weight requirements/allowances apply over and above that base weight, such as -2.5% for strut-type FWD and +2.5% for RWD.

For example, if you choose to use a 1.8L piston engine, your base weight is 2430. If you install that into a RWD chassis (e.g., Mazda Miata) you add 2.5% for a total of 2491; if you install that engine into a strut-type FWD chassis (e.g. Mazda GLC) you subtract 2.5% for a total of 2369.

Same goes for the rotard engine: start with a 13B and and your base weight is 2615 pounds. Install that engine into a RWD chassis (e.g., 1st gen RX-7) you add 2.5% for a total of 2680; if you install it into a strut-type FWD chassis (e.g. Mazda GLC) you subtract 2.5% for a total of 2550.

GA

OK so I think I got this ST class figured out for my car...

An ITR RX8 with a dash bar can run in STL at 3075lbs
But you must also chang down to 7" wide wheels (instead of 8.5") And run 17" rims not the 18" that is allowed in ITR on the RX8. Fuel cell looks like it isn't required and I can't seem to find anything else that would be an issue. If you know of or see other things that I am missing please let me know.

If I want to run in STU I could submit a WC VTS sheetand run the car as a WC car. And WC cars only run in STU or STO from what I understand...

Stephen

Ummmmm Never mind.

Go buy a seven and race us Greg, You know you want to. I have a car for you.

Dan, 77 IT7:dead_horse: