In your opinions what do you think is the best car choice for ITA? Please comment or message.
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In your opinions what do you think is the best car choice for ITA? Please comment or message.
Cannot say the "M" word.
They are reliable, handle well, parts grow on trees, and decent factory support.
1. Miata 1.8
2. CRX Si
3. Integra
4. Miata 1.6
5. 240SX
Anyone who builds/buys an ITA car other than a Miata is starting in the hole.
JMHO of course.
Integras, 240sx, Miatas, CRX, Nx2000/SE-R, 325e all have their pluses and minuses and all other than the BMW have won the ARRC over the last 10 years.
I think ITA is as equal as it gets in IT racing. Pick you weapon of choice -- torque monster, RWD or FWD, etc. -- and buy one and then work on the driver. Driver is what sets these cars apart.
Jeff made me LOL. I'll tell you exactly how to build one, in excruciating detail, all while telling you it's the absolutely wrong choice. The time for that car - as well as others in that list - is long past.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffYoung
Only one choice: 1.8L Miata, for many reasons other than it's the obvious outstanding competitive package. It's the only car I would consider building from scratch for ITA. Anything else is pissing in the wind.
GA
I don't know. Seems like a lot of folks pissing in the wind have won the ARRC the last 10 years, while a lot of Miatas have not.
I get its a great car, have driven a few and have been on track with a few of the best.
Only car to build? Clearly not. I would even grant you that it might have a slight advantage over others, but nothing that excellent setup and driving has not been able to overcome.
the miata is the easy button but it's not the only thing capable of the task. the "Earp Method" might lead one to look at the 86-87 cavalier Z-24 using the GenII 2.8L V6. It wouldn't last more than a season before the non IT-ness of the specline (saturn rear brake allowances??) and, likely, the weight, were corrected (other GMs with this engine come in ~100-200lbs heavier) but with the bomber class guys out there at the roundy rounds, there's bound to be some good tuning knowledge on these things. handling would be OK, brakes (assuming stock) are not a strong point but appear acceptable, and screw manufacturer support, you can rebuild these from on the shelf parts at your friendly local autoparts store for CHEAP.
no, I'd never drive one. I'd get a miata.
Jeff, I hear your point, but, I think the question is,
Alll things being equal...maxxed setup, maxxed tires, best driver etc etc. which car is the best?
I think you are saying that the driver and such are important and can overcome 'the wrong choice".
Maybe, but, if somebody said, "Jeff, this will be a 3 year program, and we want to win the ARRC each year with our name on the side. You are the driver. Pick the car, and we will fund the best of everything".
Which mainstream car do you think has the best chance, eliminating oddballs that might have the wrong weight and such.
I'd look for a high displacement, low revving RWD chassis with good brakes and a reasonable suspension design. In my/our experience these cars see really good gains in IT trim.
On the Miata, I don't like the lack of torque, or that the car basically seems to come to a halt in 5th gear (whether that is aero or otherwise). The rest of the package is outstanding.
I think the Miata is the easy button, and perhaps even has a slight advantage when built to the max against other 100% builds. But nothing driver or setup can't overcome in my opinion, and I think the ARRC results over the years bear it out. I still believe 100% what I said above. I think a 100% built to the max Integra/SR20/240sx/CRX/325e/Miata has a shot at the ARRC. I think the Moser/Muresan/Ruck/Amy/Price/Hoppe battles over the last few years have proven that.
I also think a bunch of very highly competitive individuals are all looking for the slightest advantage to win whenever they show up, rather than have parity. Parity to a highly competitive person isn't good enough. They want an advantage. I think you see that in a lot of of the discussion amongst the front runners about these cars. The CRXen complain about the SR20 power who complain about the Miata handling who complain about the balance of the 240sx and so on.
I'm still quite partial to the Integra, and I'm still working on mine (if my f'ing parts ever show up!). But given Jake's hypothetical situation above, it would be tough for me to not pick the 1.8 Miata. I'd have one major hangup about it though: Can I drive it? I'll openly admit that I know very little about driving RWD on track.
Jeff and Jake are both right. If ALL other factors were held equal, the Miata is probably the better option. In the real world, those factors are almost never controlled. When any truly competitive car/driver package runs up front in IT, it's MORE because of driver skill, car preparation, the "knowledge base," and budget than it is because of the name badge and the factors that come along with it.
K
EDIT - the best ITA car might be this
http://www.businessweek.com/autos/au...ives/astra.jpg
That "Opel Saturn"??
OMG...worse car I ever test drove!
Piece of cake............. It is sooooo easy to drive. If you got into a well built Miata you'd be winning in no time. It's not rocket science.Quote:
Originally Posted by R2 Racing
.
Jeff will let you know how easy once he gets within a second or two of his best times in the Saturn... :)
If you have never driven RWD, it is certainly different. Once you get the feel, you won't have to manhandle the car to get it to do the things you need it to do to be fast.
Keep working on the Teg. The Mosers reached a whole 'nother level of development a couple years ago after a decade with the CRX. You have an ARRC-winning car that you know has more to do to it given your Prod experience. It's never over.
LOL!! As often said, it's easy to drive it to 98%.
Jeff has mentioned how he needed to drive his FWD cars. I never felt that way with my Prelude. Now that SSC Civic I briefly drove...OMG.Quote:
you won't have to manhandle the car to get it to do the things you need it to do to be fast.
Yeah, that would be swell to one day win some races.Quote:
Originally Posted by JLawton
They had more like 15 years into those cars - Joe won his first ARRC in '99. Most of the new ideas I have with the ITA Integra are certainly coming from my time with the FP Integra. If I can start getting the ITA's front end to consistently work like the FP's front end......damn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Bettencourt
My point is that it's impossible until until someone does it.Quote:
Originally Posted by joeg
Jeff L turned a tupperware GM product into a winner. Jeff Y did the same with wedge-shaped Anglo-American mutant. Etc.
K
Quote:
Only one choice: 1.8L Miata, for many reasons other than it's the obvious outstanding competitive package. It's the only car I would consider building from scratch for ITA. Anything else is pissing in the wind.
Quote:
I would even grant you that it might have a slight advantage over others
Quote:
...it would be tough for me to not pick the 1.8 Miata.
Quote:
I think the Miata is the easy button, and perhaps even has a slight advantage when built to the max against other 100% builds.
I'm starting to see a trend here...Quote:
If ALL other factors were held equal, the Miata is probably the better option.
Like others have stated, regardless of which car you choose you still have to build it right, set it up right, and drive the wheels off it to beat the best. Going with the Miata won't make you an instant/automatic winner; no car will. But I think it's pretty clear which is the best one to start with.
Pontiac Fire Arrow!! :D or maybe Geo Prism GSi
I still think the later Fiero stands a chance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLawton
Fixed that. and it was Kessler HP in Amy's SR, though Greg did a decent job of driving a car that was trying to kill him! :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Knestis
Probably true in all IT classes. One car has a slight advantage if built and setup and driven to the max.
There's no way for us to balance all of this stuff equally. And doing so would be rather "prod like."
Get'em close and let'em race. That's what we have and it sure seems to work well. Diversity in ITA "winners" is pretty damn high right now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erlrich
Cosworth Vega FTW.
If I was going to build an ITA it would, and I know this is crazy, be one of the 3.8 GM cars -- the Ols, the Pontiac or the Buick.
You could get a five speed on those cars and the suspension is not terrible. I think they had drum brakes though and a carb though. Still, that motor will make power.
what, no TR6?
I'm just crazy, not pyschotic/certifiable.
I remember when someone asked to class that car. Given what it took for the Prod guys to get theirs to race -- moving suspension points, motor work, etc. -- I just laughed.
No....freaking....way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffYoung
My Dad had a ITA 3.8 Skyhawk/monza years ago here in the SE, back in the early 90s he would be on the front row at Roebling almost everytime. The car was fast, fast, fast........ problem was you couldnt stop, well you could once, then the brakes were gone. Tiny vented front rotors rear drums.......... the 5 speeds were the old small boxes, they wouldnt stay together, he probababy went through 3-4 a year. The only one that would last was the ultra heavy 4 speed. Oh, did I mention those v-6s were the old design in which the oil galleys went all the way around the block before they got to the journals. And if thats not enough for you, the car was just too darn heavy. Racing a car thats 2800 lbs, just isnt very fun, especially when you go to pay for tires.
The cars were really popular out on the west coast in ITA, but there were only 2 or 3 around here built. I am sure with the larger tire rule and better brake pads available now, it might help. But what would be the point??
Point would be winning? lol
My car races at 2685 and has more power and smaller NON-vented brakes.
You duct the Monza up and go with the new pad compounds and fluids and I bet the brakes last just fine.
Same with the new tire compounds. 2800 isn't as heavy as you think; the 240s are over 2600 lbs, etc.
I think a "modern" build on this car could be a winner.
Did they ever come with FI?
Asking which car would be best for ITA is like which girl would be best for... well anyway, they'll all work it's just a matter of what you like. The rules have made all the cars relatively equal for the most part as there are cars that excel in one area but are a lacking in another. You need to know what your rationale is for picking a car. Personal choice, what the internet said, what you read in Grassroots all need to be considered along with the financial end of things. How fast you want to get on the track and what kind of support you can receive throughout the racing season.
If something breaks at the track consider what other cars might be at the track that might loan/rent/sell you a trans or fender etc. Some of the older hard to find cars would make this, in my opinion, harder to do.
Some people like to get unique car that present a challenge to them to make them work. Others just want to get in and drive. While building a Monza, finding a good donor may present a challenge in itself. On the other hand, you could drop a cage and some shocks/springs/sways in a bone stock Miata and have a fairly capable ITA car that can be a building block as you and your skills develop. There's no digs at anyone at what they drive, I'm just presenting the easy button. IF I didn't buy an old spec Miata, I would've bought looked for a BMW E30. Option C would have been a CRX/Integra.
It all a matter of personal choice and economics as to what is the best ITA car to drive. I say Miata, others may have different opinions and all are valid considering the equality among the class.
Good luck
1990 Audi Coupe Quattro 20V!!!
Want to build one? I have two cars (one runs when it wants one does not run). Both are good donor cars. $2,500 cash and they are both yours!
For real though, 172hp (a bit heavy), well balanced, tons of torque, and AWD... I think it would be a fun ITA car, wish I could afford to build it!
Raymond
Yeah, let me get that straight, I had NOTHING to do with the building of the Saturn!! :)
I would come off the track, tell someone (Kessler) far smarter than me what the car was doing and he would make changes....... rinse and repeat for five years........
I've always said, winning isn't just about having the fastest car and isn't about having the most talent. It's about the whole program. (and when I say "winning", I mean winning the ARRC, IT Fest, SARRC, NARRC championships, etc)
It's car prep, tire management, dydno tuning (over and over), testing (over and over), PM, set-up, replacing parts before they break, measuring where a 1/4 inch isn't "close enough", paying attention to EVERY little detail, traffic management, support at the track............ and luck. I found the harder I worked, the luckier I got............
There is no "Easy Button" for winning.
(although the Miata comes pretty damn close!! :D )
.
Back in the early days of IT (1984-1986) there was competitor out here in the San Francisco region who raced a Chevy Monza with a 3.8. That car was very quick then and would still be quick by today's standards. Unfortunately most of those cars have now been crushed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chip42
Darryl
Let me know when you are going to press the easy button on your Miata so I can be ready. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by JLawton
I think he was pressin' on it a couple weekends ago at LRP... ;) I'm guessing we might see him pressin' it again at Watkins Glen in July and September, and/or NHMS in August and September, and of course back at LRP in September.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Bettencourt
How many times you gonna be pressin' it...?
GA
Because it's the 'easy button', when you press it you are supposed to be guaranteed a win and a track record!Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Amy
I am almost ready to switch hobbies (transfer the money burn) but I will be pressing it at the NARRC Runoffs for sure...but what will happen when 10 people press the same button! LOL
We rename it "Improved Spec Miata"...?Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Bettencourt
EXTRA tow trucks!!!! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Amy
Thought you had an ITS miata in the works, or are you giving up racing for cross stitching?Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Bettencourt
Trying to make a trade for a 99 SM we built...Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffYoung
Youngest might want a cart now.