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I'm trying to determine some longer term goals...one option is build an engine and the other is buy a front running ITA or ITB car. (Of course the costs of the two options are pretty different.) I realize that a lot of the pricing depends on luck and timing, but what do you estimate it would cost to purchase a front running ITA or ITB car. Something that is already built; basically a no excuses car.
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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude
eBay has a couple of IT cars listed now. ITC VW Scirocco, in PA
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAP...2&category=6060
ITB BMW 2002 in CO
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAP...&category=42601
You also have an assortment of AS's and some track type cars.
Your most always going to spend MORE to build up a car from scratch, than buy a car already built.
Your mileage will very.
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Tim Linerud
San Francisco Region SCCA
#95 GP Wabbit (Bent)
http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/index.html
From my observation, the front running cars in ITA here in Cendiv seem to be in the $14k - $20k range used and in excellent, race ready condition with decent spares.
Comparable ITB front runners here in Cendiv tend to be a bit less as the class seems to be in decline - no new cars classified and no new cars built. Prices around $11k - $14k.
I've seen some very good cars in the $10k - $12k range, but that seems the exception rather than the rule.
WOW. Those prices are up there. In my research, ITA is significantly more expensive than ITB. There was a real nice ITA CRX up on this site a month ago or so...UNDER $10K by a decent amount.
$15K buys you an RX-7 that can run up front (but not a concourse quality SpeedSOource car).
AB
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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region #188967
HOw much money to buy a front running car depends on a lot... I can't remember seeing anyone buy a front running car and be a front runner.
I don't see any reason in the North East why an ITB front running car should cost more than $6,000.00-$7,000.00 max with a good driver. I know other drivers have spent more, but I would wonder how much the current front runners would spend (knowing what they know now) to build a new car.
From what I have seen in the Northeast ITA you need to have an acura of forget it, you cand spend as much as you want in ITA on another car but you wont win (I hope next year I am proven wrong).
Don't spend more than 10K on a used ITA or ITB car, anyone I have ever seen spend that much (on an already built car with hopes to win) hasn't done as well as someone who has spent half that much. Buy a cheeper car and spend the money developing (fine tunning) it to your driving style. Basically buy a car with all the basics for less and go from their.
Dave, best of luck next season!!!
Raymond Blethen
raymond,what are you building for ita? an audi?
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WHAT!!!! What am I chopped liver, the CRX is still the top running ITA car. Anthony is very fast and his car is very well prepared, but I suspect that it's not a 10K car. Dollar for dollar, I think the CRX is faster and cheaper to run and is the ride to beat in the NE.Quote:
Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
From what I have seen in the Northeast ITA you need to have an acura of forget it, you cand spend as much as you want in ITA on another car but you wont win (I hope next year I am proven wrong).Raymond Blethen
IMHO :P
Call BSI Racing and ask them what a new ITB A3 Golf will cost you. It'll be ready to go, and will probably run at the front. And how much did Sam Moore want for his Volvo? IIRC, it was ~$12,500. That's for a car w/ multiple ARRC wins.
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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608
Shameless self promotion = 'ON'
I'm selling my ITB Fiat Spider. $6K. The car is quite quick and has out qualified a specific Volvo at CMP. Can't quite keep up at say, VIR or Atlanta in it's present config, but has the potential to.
Scott Matre
[email protected]
Raymond, what do you think the reason that people who buy front running cars are often not a front runner? Because the car doesn't fit their driving style or because the driver has not worked on their driving skills enough and hope to buy their way to the front?
Ouch! Some of the prices ranges given are a bit higher then I was hoping for. But I guess it makes sense because we're talking about a front running car. $6K - $7K sounds reasonable.
The next year or two is a somewhat tough time to buy a car with the possiblity of SCCA shaking things up in the classifications. It will also be pretty interesting to see how the civic does now that it was reclassified into ITA and the golf in ITB.
The CRX si does look like it would be a fun car to race. Guess I should just start saving my pennies...
What about buying a top NASA car (a make & model that does well in SCCA) and bringing that over? Although I would assume the typical prices would be about the same.
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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude
Raymond was being polite while voicing reality. Many times, "front-running car" really should be read as "front-running driver". There are cars that are prepped well that continually finish mid-pack. There are "iffy" cars that run up front.Quote:
Originally posted by gran racing:
Raymond, what do you think the reason that people who buy front running cars are often not a front runner? Because the car doesn't fit their driving style or because the driver has not worked on their driving skills enough and hope to buy their way to the front?
Invest in the driver, not in the car. Cars crash, blow up, get eclipsed by newer rockets in the class, etc. Invest in the driver and you'll take it with you, whatever you're driving.
[This message has been edited by JohnRW (edited February 16, 2004).]
Also, front running car/driver can mean tired car, that is being sold on its reputation. I agree with what the others have said. A good solid car that can be developed is the way to go. Look at mid-field cars where the driver may not be as fast, but is always running. To me, $10,000 is more that enough to get a really nice ITA car. BTW, here in Cen Div the CRX is still the car to beat.
I guess I was being polite... From what I have seen the newbie drivers who do the best are the ones that build the car/driver together (you can buy a car that is built but you will "rebuild" make changes over the first 2-3 years before you become a contender). Once the driver has been "built" or has developed he/she should be able to get into any car (that is compeditive) that has the basics spend a small amount of $ and time to fine tune it and be a front runner. (Yes as always their are a few exceptions to this, but in most cases you can not buy your way to the front, thier is no one car that dominates any IT class so much that a poor or rather undeveloped driver could win or be a top runner, if legal)
Tom- You are where the "I hope I am proven wrong" comment came from. I think you might be the only person to ever give anthony or any of the Acura's a run for their money. Also hoping Jermey Shepard might have a chance in his new ITA car.
Glassburner-
not building any ITA cars at this point, contimplated a lot building a 2.3L coupe GT but we are also looking at possible cars for ITS. Wont do anything this year... maybe for 2005!!!
We also have the old Capri... humm maybe we should fix that for vintage and ITA???
Raymond http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif
SCRAPPLE is more like it. http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gifQuote:
Originally posted by Tom Blaney:
WHAT!!!! What am I chopped liver...
IMHO :P
Dave, you can get Antny's car for around $25k+ or you can get mine for around $18k...but they're not for sale. Actually, good front running cars can be had for $6 to $12k's depending on the level of prep or the situation on why the car is being sold in the first place. Another factor to consider on some front running cars is, not the type of car or the level of prep, but the ability of the driver to go fast in whatever car he or she is in. The CRX would seem to be the car to have if you went to the ARRC. The field looked like Spec CRX. Here in the Northeast, top 5 could be Integra, CRX, Civic, VDub, Nissan, etc.,and not too long ago, myself and the Sheppard boys with RX-7's would be in the mix. Bottom line is, you can get a few variety of cars that can run up front but it all depends on commitments, time, money and effort. http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif
Ray
My comments were based upon top-notch cars I have seen advertised and personally know about, and cars I have personally inspected.
I also agree that there are some cars sold more on reputation (skill of the driver) than on the basis of the level of design, engineering, and execution on the car itself.
For $7k - $10k, you should easily be able to get a very nice, solid, reasonably quick top 1/3 of pack car. I have found that the incremental investment to move from there to first or second place performance is high and seems disproportionate, and agree with the comments about investing in the driver.
Good luck!
Rich
Oh I definately agree with investing in the driver first. That's why I'm running a very stock car (except a basic suspension and exhaust). I've been putting my money into getting track time and learning, not the car. I've put much more time than money in the car. Besides, the car won't be competitive in its current class no matter what I do to it. It is actually a good learning car. If I slow down or make a mistake, it really shows. It can also be a little tough to handle, and really teaches me car control.
But I definately want to get into a car at some point in the near future (maybe next year or a little later) that will be more competitive. I ran a few EMRA races (a local club in the NER area) and ran at the front. It also helps that my car is classified in their ITB equivalent. Although in SCCA ITB isn't really that far behind ITA. This gave me the flavor for being the car at the front and fighting for first. It was great! And it pushed me to decrease my lap times significantly.
I definately agree about finding the right car and not totally base it on it's past finishing place in races. Within one's own region, you can fairly easily ask around and people can direct you to a car that is only running mid pack because of the car. I do think it would be fun to get a car from another region (or NASA) that isn't well know in my region. Maybe I'm just strange like that? So, is the best way to find a great car simply by asking around? Like several have previously mentioned, a car driven by an "average" driver running towards the front but now winning is not the same as a car driven by an absolute great driver winning. The car now winning may actually be a better car.
It is interesting looking around at cars. Some state that they have won the big race or done really well. But in some of these situations it only has that crediential because the big players didn't show at that race, it was raining and they are local to that track, others had problems at the track, ect.
Somewhat related - how often is a rebuild necessary? I realize that a full engine build can cost a little over $3,000. But is a rebuild the same?
Thanks for all the info.!
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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude
Front running cars and what other extra's are always two seperate things, you don't need to spend alot of money but put it in the right things,but sometimes the front running cars have the right steering wheel spacers and thats it.For what I've spent on my car I could have built maybe two or three of Tom's CRX, but our lap times and Ray's are very close at certain tracks, develop the driver and then develop your car, I know of a pretty nice CRX with a trailer for 12k if your intersted email me and I'll give you the guys address. Another thing, always race within your budget, sometimes you might want to go down a class and have fresh rubber every weekend nad a car that is lower maint., the worst part of racing is being in debt to it , it always takes the fun out of it.I think ITC is a great class and the racing is very tight, Tim maybe might want to chime in here, he can tell you how much fun he is having moving down from an A car that was a major underdog, but always managed to finish well with it anyways.
Did anyone take a look at this car that was mentioned above:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAP...2&category=6060
Could this car possibly have a logbook?
Look at the cage. The diaginal in the main hoop has a bend and there is no horizontil in the main hoop. Also, the rear braces have bends.
Dave:
As others have said "front running" usually means car has capability to go fast + fast driver. That being said, I'd consider myself a pretty average driver and was still "front running" with the car I'm selling. Take a look in the classified section (ITB GTi) and I'd be happy to talk. (shameless plug for my car!)
Pete
Saw the link. "Vintage" racer in this case translates to: "Does not meet current rules" http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif Dave, my advice (for the future) is to keep your eyes peeled and buy a car that you know runs up front. i.e. Scott Haven's killer purchase.
From this site: Looks liek a great platform to start with.
Quote:
ITA Honda CRX Posted: Jan, 15 2004
ITA 91 Honda CRXsi: OPM limited slip diff and 4.73 final drive; 8 point cage with NASCAR door bars; Kirkey seat; 4 Panasport wheels with mounted Hoosiers, 4 additional mounted Hoosiers, never used mounted Hoosier Dirtstockers, tons of spares. Everything Honda that I have is included. This is a very fast and dependable front running car in the northeast. Motor has just 2 track days on it since freshened. Runs very strong and is legal. Car has shortened race valved adj. Koni shocks, Eibach springs, Mugen bushings, new brake calipers modified and stock ECU….. more. This is a very well prepared racecar that looks and runs great. Steal this car with spares for $6500. Email [email protected]
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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region #188967
Yeah, I saw the CRX. Looks nice. Although I'm still in the saving up for the car mode. http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/frown.gif
All in due time, right? I can't wait for the season to start up. This has been a long winter!
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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude
Does seem to have a logbook, though very old. I'll have to check the ITCS, but I don't recall a 1.8L engine being legal in the '76 for ITC...Quote:
Originally posted by zracer22:
Did anyone take a look at this car that was mentioned above:
[URL=http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2460295782&category=60 60]http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2460295782&category=60 60[/ URL]
Could this car possibly have a logbook?
Look at the cage. The diaginal in the main hoop has a bend and there is no horizontil in the main hoop. Also, the rear braces have bends.
Raymond, you must have been talking about me http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif Several people told me that I could buy for cheaper than building. And as it turns out, they were right but I've have learned so much by slowly developing the car while at the same time, becoming better as a driver. Now, I have a long way to go but my lap times are getting better and the car is handling better. Now, if I could only get more seat time http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/cool.gifQuote:
Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
I guess I was being polite... From what I have seen the newbie drivers who do the best are the ones that build the car/driver together...
Raymond http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif
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Richy Gonzalez
GB Racing - #24 ITA CRX
LAMIN-X Protective Films
Ok I am selling my front running ITB Audi.
2003 NARRC Champion
2003 NERRC Champion
2003 3rd place finish at the ARRC with a driver that only had 15 laps on the track before the race.
Car is as is right off the track at the ARRC. Comes with a spare Motor, 3 sets of wheels, and had several new parts replaced with only 1 race on them.... Axles, Brakes, Rotors, wheel bearings, hubs, ect. See picture in my brothers signature above! For only $9,000 you to can get a podium at the ARRC!
Nitty Gritty that I am leaving out of my add:
Car does not have a single straight panel as it was totalled three weeks prior to the ARRC. All the above new parts are completly worn out and I only drove 15 laps before the race started at the ARRC because I broke 4 axles that weekend (The nose is still bent to the left.) The tires that are mounted on all 3 sets are completly worn out but they should get the car on the trailer and around the paddock. Good luck prepping this thing as well since noone understand them and noone races them!
Had to add in a little humor and remind you to find out the nitty gritty details before you even make the trip to look at the car. Talk to people that have raced with it that you trust so you get the true nitty gritty stuff! Best of luck in your search... good cars are out there but be smart and take your time finding the right one!
Stephen
[This message has been edited by RSTPerformance (edited February 18, 2004).]
While this may sound like a shamless plug...it is http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif
http://www.teamscr.com/forsale.htm
It is truly a "no excuses" car. Everything is right. Tons of pics and info are on the website.
If you run ITA in CENDIV, most likely you have seen the car. It's a red Saturn SC, car number 34.
Best lap times:
Mid-Ohio 1:45.1
Grattan 1:31.6
Glen short course 1:32.1
The car placed 4th at the ARRC in 2001, but has not been back to Road Atlanta since. The car is always in front and has scored 6 wins in the past three years, and is always a favorite for the podium.
In the car's past four outings at Watkins Glen (it's an 11-hour haul from home, but love the track) it has three wins and four fast race laps alone.
A baby is on the way, so here is your chance to steal it. Asking price is $14k, but there are a ton of spares (I am an ex-Saturn engineer) and perhaps a bit of negotiating room. It cost $35k to build the car over 5 years.
If you want to race ITA, want to be different, and want a car that can run in front, here you go! It is in turn-key condition...even the tires are still good (only 1 weekend on them). Buy it today, race it tomorrow. Literally.
And, of course, the body is straight...it is a plastic-bodied Saturn after all.
James
[email protected]
[This message has been edited by teamscr (edited February 24, 2004).]
[This message has been edited by teamscr (edited February 24, 2004).]
That Saturn is a very nice car.