i'm looking at getting into it racing. what's the cost of running an 85 civic, fully sorted, like? what are the costs in general like for a season? any info would be nice.
Printable View
i'm looking at getting into it racing. what's the cost of running an 85 civic, fully sorted, like? what are the costs in general like for a season? any info would be nice.
I have been running ITC here in Cendiv with an 86 Civic DX for the last couple of years. I don't know how much of your own work you can/would do, but I do all of my own except for machine shop work like boring and honing..Quote:
Originally posted by -GTR-:
i'm looking at getting into it racing. what's the cost of running an 85 civic, fully sorted, like? what are the costs in general like for a season? any info would be nice.
The first year, I ran just about the entire season on a single set of Kumho tires. I would say to mount a truly competitive effort, you would budget for 3 sets of tires at $400 per set. Brake pads, I went through 2 sets of pads at $130/set and 2 rotors at $11/rotor (NAPA). Left side axle bearings needed replacement at the end of year-2. I got almost new ones at the local boneyard for $30. Synthetic engine oil and transmission gear oil helps. Change both every three race weekends - $40 including filter per chg - 4 changes per season = $160. You should consider refreshing the engine every two years which should cost you no more than $1,000. Incidentals like brake ducts, zip ties, air filters, etc - around $100 per season.
This car has been the most bang-for-the-buck of any car I have raced in the last 35 years.
My quick calculations bring in the expenses of this car at under $2300 per season. This does not include Entry fees, fuel, lodging etc. My American Sedan Camaro cost me roughly $1500 per weekend with Tires and Transmissions being the chief consumables that broke the bank.
Good luck!
Randy Van de Loo
ITC Honda #7 - Gotcha - LOL Region
...which does not, of course, include amortizing the cost of the car, trailer, storage and other non-direct "weekend" expenditures.
I think that we have an obligation to people who are just starting out to help them understand the hurling of money that accompanies a start-from-scratch effort. If an established club racer were to do an inventory and determine the replacement cost (new) of the awning, the tools, the jackstands, cooler, and all of the other "stuff", it would be fairly shocking to the entry-level competitor.
It is all too easy for someone who wants to get started to divide $2300 by five races, get an attractive number and run out and buy a $500 bone yard car to start the project.
We (club racing as an institution) disappoint a LOT of people. How much turnover has there been in your region in the last five seasons? I would venture that most of it is due to underestimations of the cost of participation...
Kirk
Don't forget about the tow vehicle and trailer. Then you add tools, jack, stands, fuel jugs, spare parts... These things all add up. Then there is the safety equipment. Suit, helmet, shoes, etc...
It's difficult to come up with a true number for the start up costs. I'd be happy to discuss my expenses with you. Maybe if you get a few different numbers, you can get a realistic ballpark for your operation.
(feel free to email me at [email protected])
------------------
Matt Downing
www.downingracing.com
Quote:
Originally posted by Knestis:
...which does not, of course, include amortizing the cost of the car, trailer, storage and other non-direct "weekend" expenditures.
I think that we have an obligation to people who are just starting out to help them understand the hurling of money that accompanies a start-from-scratch effort. If an established club racer were to do an inventory and determine the replacement cost (new) of the awning, the tools, the jackstands, cooler, and all of the other "stuff", it would be fairly shocking to the entry-level competitor.
It is all too easy for someone who wants to get started to divide $2300 by five races, get an attractive number and run out and buy a $500 bone yard car to start the project.
We (club racing as an institution) disappoint a LOT of people. How much turnover has there been in your region in the last five seasons? I would venture that most of it is due to underestimations of the cost of participation...
Kirk
Kirk - his message / questions again were;
Quote:
i'm looking at getting into it racing. what's the cost of running an 85 civic, fully sorted, like? what are the costs in general like for a season? any info would be nice.
No flame intended but:
I answered the question he asked. He specifically stated "fully sorted". IMHO you don't get to the point of having a fully sorted racecar without first having bought the trailer, hauler, etc. etc. etc...
Your response in this thread seems to indict people, such as myself, as the "cause" of racing / racer turnover or a decline in our ranks due to misinformation. This, IMHO, is not the case. Participation nationwide in **ANY** motorsport venue is down. I also crew / crewchief other cars including World Challenge GT cars and can tell you first hand that participation is not down due to people mis-calculating the expense of racing. Participation is down, primarily, due to economic hardships caused by lack of participation by **sponsors**. In Club Racing, this deficit in participation can be directly linked to jobs that people no longer have. I read in the papers, daily, of the THOUSANDS of people being let go or layed off due to the failure or reorganization of businesses.
Anyone who is reasonably intelligent (I would think that would include anyone capable of double-clicking a mouse) can surmize for him/herself that racing is not cheap - regardless of the class. In this particular case, the question was specifically geared toward a "maintenance" type of response.
I have seen people race ITC cars that they built from a $50 beater and went racing for under $500. They didn't go exceptionally fast, and they weren't 100% sorted out for that price, but they had far more than $500 worth of fun. I have even seen people drive their racecars to the track, unload, switch tires, race, switch tires and drive home.
Kirk, how much do you spend to maintain your racecar and what venue do you participate in?
Thanks.
------------------
I enjoy racing Hondas specificly due to their low up keep costs. Many drivers that I've spoken too also view Hondas..... 'once they are built they are done'! Basic maitance only.
I race 6 events a year.
1-set Hoosiers
1-set of porterfield pads
Mobil 1 after every 2nd race.
plugs once a year.
My car is not a ARRC caliber racer... however big fun for little cash... Also, I believe if you don't abuse the car it's almost un-breakable. Hondas rule.
good luck.
I drive my 90 CRX to the track... 8hrs each way, leaving friday for my 4th weekend in my rookie season. To prove that I'm not completely insane, I do have a "chase" vehicle, the first two weekends I had a friend helping out with a small truck, last time just my girlfriend and a Civic hatchback to carry the tires and jack, cooler, etc.
There is absolutley no reason to own a tow vehicle, I mean, sure, it would be nice, but the cost of buying and insuring a vehicle for a year is pretty high...
The point of IT is to have a perfectly good car that you CAN still drive on the street.
The past two regional race weekends at Mid-Ohio would contradict this statement. More than one person each weekend was happy to have a tow vehicle and trailer to carry the remains of their car home. Most of the incidents were "racing incidents", and some were stupidity on someone's part... Either way, without a trailer, you are screwed! Figure out the cost of a tow truck for 8 hours and the cost of a tow vehicle and trailer will seem small.Quote:
<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">There is absolutley no reason to own a tow vehicle, I mean, sure, it would be nice, but the cost of buying and insuring a vehicle for a year is pretty high</font>[/b]
I'm selling my old tow vehicle - 1987 Suburban. Tons of miles (255k on body and 55k on motor and trans.) and lots of rust. Runs and drives great. $1800.00 obo
I've used it to tow 12 hours (each way) to VIR this year and about 20 additional hours of towing in 2001.
I don't want to worry about my ride home while I'm on the track. My weekends are much more enjoyable knowing that no matter what happens, the car goes in the trailer and I tow it home. (This does not mean that I take stupid chances just because I'm not driving it home, it just means that I can race 100% W2W and not be distracted with the thought of needing to drive my race car home)
Just my .02
------------------
Matt Downing
www.downingracing.com
About the whole drive to the track thing.....make sure you have a ride home.... http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif
I always make sure I have a plan in place. This includes what happens if the car is undriveable after the weekend. So far, so good.
Also, I am NOT recommending anyone turn their daily driver into a racer, unless they can afford to write it off, completely. It WILL happen, someday, either to you or someone you know, and it won't be pleasant. Having a tow vehicle only makes it more convenient, but no less pleasant, I'm sure.
Jon
Cost to build my SRX-7: $6000
Cost of new tools: $2000
Cost of safety gear: $1200
Cost of tow rig: $5500
Weekend costs:
$175 entry fee
$175 practice day
$150 tire wear (3-4 races per set)
$100 brake wear
$150 other consumables
$100 food/beverage
$ 50 hotel room
--------
$1000 very rough estimate
rebuild engine every other season: $1500
wear/tear on tow rig per season: $1000
All of the above are rough guesses. My car is a solid mid-pack MARRS SRX-7. My budget, effort, and personal capabilities are all solid mid-pack as well.
I could put another $3000 into developing the car easy (dyno, replace some worn bits, etc). I could spend another $600/weekend easy as well (fresh tires and brakes for every race).
My tow rig is a 1989 Caprice copcar. The trailer was used and in not enclosed. It works well, but it ain't no diesel truck either.
I imagine an ITC car would require similar sums of money. ITA and ITS would cost a bit more - they go faster so wear out parts faster.
This is my first full season. I was totally unprepared for the expense of getting the race effort going. It has put a huge strain on my bank account. I made the common mistake of assuming the car cost and race costs were 90% of the investment. They were more like 65%. But I survived and will be back next season (with a more appropriate budget).
Hey, Thumper...
I really didn't mean for my note to be a personal attack and apologize if it seemed that way. You did indeed answer the literal question but I feel like we should be sensitive to what the thinking behind the "cost" question is, when it comes from someone new to this game.
As far as indictments go, my contention is that the cause of turnover in club racing are the financial realities--not our (collective) failure to help newcomers understand them. Your generalization about sponsorship is a good one, particularly given the current economic trends, but I would contend that sponsorship has never played a significant role in funding club racing efforts. This assumes a definition of "sponsorship" that implies an "arm's-length" commercial exchange of goods or $ for some service of value--real or implied!
(I would respectfully suggest that this reality extends to pretty much ALL domestic road racing series but that is another strand...)
Do we (the body of SCCA people interested in road racing) shoulder the blame when someone gets in over his or her head? No. Can we do a better job of "mentoring" those entering the sport, perhaps helping to steer them clear of an all-to-common financial pitfall? I think so.
I'll bet you a cookie that the "financial failure rate" of club racing efforts (where costs exceed those anticipated and participants [or their spouses!] get frustrated and bail) was only marginally better during economically flush periods in recent history but I might be very wrong--my evidence is anecdotal. There is an "eyes bigger than the plate" kind of behavior, where folks are tempted to race a class or two above what they can REALLY afford. The dot.com, new-money rich guy might have spent more than he should have on a GT1 Porsche, where, in a less favorable economic conditions, he would have ponied up $20K to build a killer ITB Golf. An everyday working stiff might be using sweat equity to build a $2000 Honda but, in all cases, the failure dynamic can be the same...
Am I a cynic? Probably, but I spent two years racing my ONLY car--the one that got me to and from college classes. (Or you could look at it the other way around--I drove an IMSA Renault Cup race car on the street.) We drove it from Seattle to an event in Riverside, CA one spring and got great mileage, though we had to raise the rear torsion bars WAY up to handle the load of the camping gear and tools! When I started club racing it (in ITC), I owned a van but drove the car to the track. Heck, I didn't even wait until I got to the track to put on the "race" tires--it was more comfortable to do it at home in the garage. This was before the era of "real" DOT race tires, of course.
Even at that, after selling it and doing the math, it still ended up costing something between $1000 and $2000 per race, over its lifetime, depending on how gloomy I want to be when I do the math! (This DOES take into account approximately 3000 whole US dollars of sponsor revenue but not in-kind support.) I am not currently racing (back in school instead) but 15 years playing around in rallying and club and "pro" road racing has left me pragmatic and feeling like we can do new guys and gals the favor of giving them as much information as possible.
I MUST, however, go on record as agreeing that an ITC Honda is probably among the very most economical strategies to get on the track. I just think that some sound accounting practices should be applied when talking about costs--like amortizing cap expenditures over the number of races run, accepting that a race car may have a resale value of $0 after one session on the track, and not rationalizing non-direct expenses (that new toolbox) as having utility beyond racing...
Kirk
PS--I had a friend who would tell newbys that they could get started in an ITC Rabbit "just like his" for $1500. When he decided to sell it, his asking price was three times that. (Anecdote.)
Two sort of off topic things;
Thumper: Are you a victim of BIR's cancellations and need a place to race this weekend? Come to Gimli, north of Winnipeg! See my post in the CenDiv forum
AND; What's it like towing with an old cop car? I was thinking a newer style Caprice or better yet, Roadmaster, wagon might be a cool tow vehicle that I could actually stand to drive....
Yes, I drive a VW and I look at the Honda board (trying to see were you guys struggle so we can get an advantage http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif ) Even though I race ITB, were Hondas are slim to none in my region, I do like to see what anyone involved in SCCA is up to.
Knestis: You are a poet!!! Besides that, everything you said is absolutely true.
Thumper: Everything you said is absolutely true as well.
GTR: Take this advice away from this thread; this is a point at which you must agree to disagree with the "appropriate" cost of racing. The hard nosed fact is you can spend, spend spend, or be the ultimate in budget racers. Neither of which is wrong.
Little Background: I am 22 years old, just graduated college, and I am in the process of completing my first "real" year of racing. Last year, I was a budget racer, Kumho tires that lasted my two schools and two race weekends (did enough last year to get my liscense, you will see why in a minute) and they still had plenty of tread on them. Bought a shell with a cage for $1000, all other parts from a junkyard, and I went racing. As for towing, I borrowed from friends and family. I live in Danbury, and only did Lime Rock, 1 hour away.
Did I get my license? YES
Was it a fun experience? YES
Was the car legal, safe, ran? YES
Was I in any way competitive? NO
Was my original goal to find out if I like the sport before I decided on dumping lots of cash into it? YES
Did I succeed? YES
Would I (Personal Opinion here, this is what works for me, this is not advice) ever get into such a non-competitive, low-prepped car? NEVER AGAIN!
I know plenty of guys that are budget racers that have the best time, and then I see some guys with the Freighliner and the sleeper and the 48 ft enclosed banging their head on their $100,000 tow rig because they lost to the guy pulling his car with a station wagon.
GTR: These little opinions above are just to let you know that you can spend a little, or a lot. Now when I say a little, that is not a small amount of money, it is just a comparison to the big spenders of the sport. Here is what I propose, get a BIG notebook (you may laugh, but I did this) get to a regional, find people, and ask. Point, question, take pictures. That is the best way. See how they got there, crew for them (they probably will get you lunch!), ask where they sleep (tents are a one time cost, race tracks often have showers, but a hotel is nice), also, find the person that got into a fender bender that weekend (approach with caution) and find out that it can and will happen and the cost to fix. I know that I and hundreds of others will be glad to answer questions like this. A half page posting will never give you the answer you are looking for. Everyone here has given excellent advice as to what this new racer can expect. Please, the only advice I have is to get to a race weekend before you invest, and ask plenty of questions. You may even find someone who is willing to help you get going? In conclusion, I run an A2 VW GTI "Fully Sorted", with a used motor and tranny, did all the work myself except for the cage, and the car cost over 10K. IS THIS NECESSARY? NO NO NO. This is the path I have chosen. Crack Monkey (love the name) gave some very good numbers on the products he listed.
GTR, please write back on this forum, I would like to hear your response to all of us "know-it-alls" http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif
Regards,
Alan
...thank you all for the responses. i have gathered a lot more information from this board than i thought i would. i am actually looking to race in b.c canada, in a class called ip. (improved production) i have ordered a rulebook, but from what i have gathered, it is basically the same as it. hondas and rabbits interest me because of their (it's all relative) cheap costs. (again, relative to other cars/classes) i've been to races, and i've asked many questions, and gotten many different answers. my only conclusion is to take what i have heard, dive into it with the best effort i can afford first year, and then sort things out and come up with a strong car the next year. thank you for all the advice, i haven't disagreed with any of it, but i think the best way for me to figure things out is to get in there and try it myself.
thanks again, and keep the info and remarks coming.
Are you looking at CASC rules or the ICSCC "Conference" rules? Just curious...
Kirk
GTR;
I'm actually not running ITA, although I did build my car to SCCA rules for ITA.... I'm running IP3, too, in Manitoba.
IHMO, the 1988-1991 CRX is the car to have. If I'm having a good day, ie fresh tires, it's pretty hard for anyone to catch up. The only VW's that might catch me would be 2.0l cars, classed in IP2, so that's no problem.
One thing to note, though, the way the WCMA rules are written, you could actually race, say, an Integra Type R, in IP3. Needless to say, it would be impossible to beat. This because of the way the rules are written, breaking cars down by engine size, which was OK when everything was OHC 2-valves, but a little outdated now.
There HAS been considerable talk about changing over to IP classes that more closely follow the SCCA IT classes, but wether or not that happens remains to be seen.
One thing to note about the 1984-1987 cars that you may be considering.... Although they ARE competitive in SCCA ITC, it is only because you are allowed to bolt a Weber carb on. Without that, they suck... and you are not allowed that change under the WCMA rules.
Regardless, the best thing to do would be to find a nice, clean, and relatively cheap 88-91 CRX, and go have fun.
What is the state of IP3 in BC? Are there a lot of entries? We usually have 7 or 8 in our class.
'later,
Jon
Jon - towing with the Caprice is like towing with any mid-sized, small V8 truck. On a flat, the car tows fine. Up a hill, it starts to loose speed, but still gets teh job done. This would be the same with a 1500 PU with the same engine/tranny.
I got it instead of a truck for two reasons. One, it seats 5, so I don't need another vehicle. Two, the price was right and it was hard to find a suitable truck in similar price range.
The newer cars are more expensive ($5000+ for an ex-service vehicle), but also have the 260hp LT1 instead of the ~200hp LO5. The civilian cars mostly had 302s, not 350s and probably would struggle towing a full rig. The copcar also has a way better suspension setup.
I chose a '89 because it has by far the stiffest rear spring rates (of the fuel injected cars, from '89-'96). The newer cars have softer springs and would need helpers or airbags IMO. Also, it has less power so the tranny tends to last a bit longer. And the LT1 cars have the 4L60e (electronic version of 700R4/4L60) which costs twice as much to rebuild.
If you look for a service car, try to find the original owner and get a service record. Most counties have these available. Also, be sure the car has the oil cooler, trans cooler, and PS cooler. These were standard some years, but optional others.
On the newer cars, also look for the posi rear. And the final drive ratio. The boxy cars mostly had 3.43 and no posi. The newer cars mostly have 3.02 (or similar). But there are some with 3.43 posi units that make the car really haul ass.
Finding a boxy in good shape is getting harder. But they are great cars.
There are tons of round body cars available. Do some research and wait for the right car. If you want a round body, get an LT1 car (94-96). Without the LT1, you may as well save some cash and get a square body - the 91-93 roundy had the same drivetrain.
Kirk you gave me the opening I've been looking for. The answer is IP is a Canadian class. They are close to IT but some differences, incidentally it's no longer CASC but CACC? and recently I checked the web site and there is discussion/rules proposal to align the IP rules with IT.
Kirk knowing of your interest in Westwood, yesterday I hired on at Allard Contracting about 20 years to late. It's the gravel operation at the base of the hill to Westwood. I was looking at air photos of the development and turn three still exists, it's in the greenbelt between the gravel operations and the housing. When you look at the photo of the development there houses built as if they surround the hairpin, and a group that are built in the paddock, it was a strange picture to see.
Finally after Bill's grief with Volkswagen weights the Conference rules are on-line at http://www.ICSCC.com in pdf format, check the production rules. Sorry for bing long winded and slightly off topic
Poor Westwood (RIP). Is that Allard as in Frank Allard? That would be a Westwood connection from the past. I remember the pit before the gate--there used to be trials motorcyclists in there all the time. You might appreciate that the very last time I was at WW (the year M. Andretti won the FMondial race there, I think?), I was admiring the autographs on the inside of the door of the broken down shack above the pits--a selection of FAtlantic shoes from the late 70s/early 80s. Wonder what that door would be worth on EBay today? If I had known it would be the last time I was there, I would have put it in the back of the truck...
Kirk
Kirk I was at that very same Mondial race. The driver you're thinking of is Frank Allers - he has an independent Porsche shop here in North Vancouver. He ran Speedvision Cup last year in a Corvette, the deal fell apart this year.
GTR if you're on the lower mainland you could go to SCCBC meetings they're free and visitors welcome. I think its first Wednesday of the month at one of the hotels on North Road. As I remember bench racing and conviviality reign after the business is taken care of. The SCCBC has a web site http://www.SCCBC.net/ where you should find more information
Thanks for the correction. Either I am getting old and the memory is fading or I am getting smarter--replacing '80s racing trivia with new educational research knowledge. Let's hope it's the latter...
K
I am also looking at getting into racing. IT seems like a logical place to start. I have been reading a couple of web sites that chronicle people's starting-out experiences. Here are two sites that you may find useful:Quote:
Originally posted by -GTR-:
i'm looking at getting into it racing. what's the cost of running an 85 civic, fully sorted, like? what are the costs in general like for a season? any info would be nice.
http://www.bmwcca.org/tips/tipmisc7.shtml
http://members.aol.com/weissracin/content.htm
jmb
I disagree with Mr. nelson's comment above that without a Wber carb, this gen Honda can't be competitive. There are plenty of people out there running that miserable little Kuehnin thing, and doing quite well with it. You need the stock one set right, but a Weber is not magic. You can do more with them, but there's plenty of guys with CVCC cars withWebers getting passed up by CVCC cars with the factory issue carb. If you aren't running a CVCC, then maybe it makes sense, but don't think you need one to run.
[This message has been edited by Dom Pirinchinci (edited October 20, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Dom Pirinchinci (edited October 20, 2001).]