Class C Diesel?

Class C diesel choices, what are they? Quality differences?

I know of the Gulfstream Endura. A little too pricey for my blood. I also have heard that their quality has fallen over the last several years.

I've been looking for an RV lately as I'm getting too old to sleep on the ground or in the back of the truck. I am amazed that diesels are terribly scarce and very expensive if you can find one. They certainly should be better for towing toys.

------------------
Ed Tisdale
#22 ITS '95 325is
Racing BMW's since 1984

They should be, but often arent.

Because they add a lot of 'features' and other useless crap (IMHO)on diesel's.

If you don't do mountains and reduce your load a bit, you can probably live well with a short (30' or less) Class A with a big block.

If you want a C, the ones built on medium dutys are nice though.

apr67,

Thanks for the suggestion, I currently have a small, with less than 50K mi, class C with a FI460. I am looking to upgrade to something that can tow what I have more comfortably. Lots of mountain passes, already have a pretty light trailer/race car combo. My friend just bought a 2005 31' class A with the V10, sure is nice, but works way too hard pulling a race car over our local passes.


My next motorhome will be a diesel. The class A diesels are way too expensive. I'd like to go with a class C diesel which are considerably less expensive (which is still too much money) and smaller/lighter.

Finding a Class C diesel is nearly impossible. The last manufacturer that I know of that built them in any large numbers were Scotty's that used the Dodge Ram 3500 chassis back in 94-97 or so.
The Endura is the only one I know of that is currently being built. For all the ones that use the F450 chassis from Ford and with the sizes they are building Class C's you'd think they would use the diesel in a lot more of them, but they don't. I'd say it's probably because of the cost, the C's are reaching into the 60-80K territory new now, and adding another 5K to the price to have a diesel would put them into Class A prices.

I watch the motorhomes etc on Ebay a lot, and in the last 2 years or so, I think I've seen 2 Scotty's and one other Class C with a diesel. Of course, if gas prices stay like they are for another year, I think you'll see a lot more of them using the diesels due to demand.

My wife and I have been searching for a class A motorhome for the last year. Here are a couple of things learned.

1. class C -- tongue weight is a big issue. Most need to reinforce the rear frame to pull an enclosed trailer.

2. class A -- Do not consider anything less than a v10 ford motor for towing. Same goes for a class C.

3. Diesel -- 250hp is marginal for towing, 275 better, 300 far better. Used class a diesel pushers are rare as hens teeth for under 60k. You are looking at 1992-1993 in that price range. No problem on the motor, but you need to consider what has been replaced in the coach and what will need to be replaced in the next two years.

We still continue to look and have driven well over 1000 miles looking at used units. On two trips when we were assured that the unit was "immaculate" we spent less than 10 minutes and drove home 4 and 5 hours!

One other word. Pictures lie!!! What you see on E-Bay or in e-mail does not necessarily represent the actual condition of a coach. Shop accordingly!!

------------------
Chuck Baader
#36 ITA E30 BMW
Alabama Region Divisional Registrar

A little research on RV dot Net, and I discovered that FourWinds, Gulfstream and LazyDaze all make Class C diesels. The LazyDaze is made a stone's throw from the house and is available in a 26 1/2' rear island bed model.

New class A diesels are well north of 100K, therefore well beyond my means.

Chuck if you are serious about a Class A diesel pusher I'll keep my eyes open for any in so-cal for you.

Out here, with home values climbing tremendously (Orange and San Diego counties were the two counties with the highest appreciation in the Nation last 12 months, at 38%) and the "me" generation willing to tap into that equity all the time. Combined with all the buddies that go to Glamis and the Colorado River having to outdo each other every new season, there are always nice Class A diesel pushers for sale around here. I have seen 1 year old Alfa Gold pushers and Holiday Rambler/Monaco's selling for $80-100K LESS THAN what they sold for new only 1 year prior.

[This message has been edited by Quickshoe (edited September 01, 2004).]

Quickshoe...be double sure of the rear structure at the trailer hitch. A call to the mfg. would be in order to research tongue weight. Have a friend here that pulls a 24' enclosed and can't keep his rear basement doors closed http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/frown.gif

Am serious about the class A. Will look at a HR the monday after the NASA race at Roebling since I am in the neighborhood. Chuck ([email protected])

Just got a new 31' Winnebago Class A gas. Went Class A over C for lots of reasons, but in a nutshell, 20,500 pound chassis over a 14,050 in the same length coach! 75 gallons of gas vs. 55, 80 gallons of water vs. 40, the list goes on.

Also, get to know the term "Cargo Carrying Capacity" or CCC. Almost nil on a lot of Class C's (don't forget to count the optional generator...). Directly related to the 20,500 mentioned above.

Regarding Class C diesels. Ford does offer the powerstroke in their class C cut-aways. Winnebago only offers it in one model though. A rare bird as you've found. In the case of the 7.3 powerstrokes the van version was not intercooled, power suffered accordingly (aftermarket intercooler comes to mind). Not sure what the 6.0 story is, but I've heard power is lower there too.

VERY happy with our gasser. Resisted the 35' plus urge though. 12,000 miles this year (only a little towing so far).

Tim.


[This message has been edited by tderonne (edited September 17, 2004).]

Or go overkill and be done:

http://www.truckconversion.net/forsale/new.html

(At $99,900, it's actually affordable, at least compared top $200,000 plus new.)

Quickshoe, found a class A diesel pusher, 36' with the 8.3 Cummings 6 speed Allison,
250 hp, but upgradebel to 325hp/908ft-lb for less than $250. Will try out going to Roebling next weekend.

------------------
Chuck Baader
#36 ITA E30 BMW
Alabama Region Divisional Registrar

Tderrone,

Cool site. I'd been there previously, trying to convince my soon-to-be-retired Father-in-law to go that route. He's very handy, good health, hard worker, and frugal. His old motorhome has been on its' last leg for a while. He camps numerous times a year and is always towing one thing or another (no racecars in his stable).

My friend just purchased a 2005 31' SeaBreeze by National RV. I went to the dealership today to inspect the new hitch (Class V-10,000#) they installed for her. The 31' SeaBreeze had the highest GCWR of the gassers on their lot (26,000#). However, when loaded to max GVWR (20,500#) leaves only 5500# to tow!!! Fortunately, they should be about 1500# under GVWR when going to the track. Not as much food/clothing/stuff as when going camping for 2 weeks. That will give her a max trailer weight of 7000# which will be very close to the weight of her 20' enclosed with ITS rx7 and spares. Too close for me...but not my choice, I was only there to verify that they removed the 5000# hitch and installed a 10,000# hitch.

Is the GCWR of your RV also 26,000?

Chuck, good luck with your purchase.

Yes, 26,000. Same even for the 22,000 Ford chassis.

There might be a Workhorse chassis (maybe the W24) with a higher GCWR, not too sure. If I ever tow an enclosed trailer I'll be over the limit. With proper trailer brakes, possible upgrade to the 22,000 chassis axle specs (1000 pound higher rating, springs are the only difference), a close look/upgrades to the rear frame, and careful attention to the powertrain (I'm a Ford Powertrain engineer), I hope it can work. I know it'll work better than if I had a 14,050 GVWR class C.

If you look at the specs for the 6.0 in the E450, it's derated compared to the F series chassis. This may be because of cooling constraints in the E series chassis. Another reason why diesels have not been popular in Class C's IMHO is that the engine protrudes into the passenger compartment and the noise is accentuated. (listen to the airport shuttle bus sometime)

DC
ITS 240z

The only currently produced class C diesel I'm aware of is the Endura. I did a lot of research before I bought my Class A pusher. If Gulfstream had a little better reputation, I would have bought the Endura - but I kept running into bad reports from owners. FWIW, you can get a new Endura 34' with the diesel package (Duramax and 7.5KW Onan Quiet Diesel) for about $85K, if you're willing to shop and travel.

I found a loaded 2001 Monaco Knight 31' with <14K milkes, the Cummins 260, and the Onan diesel for quite a bit less than that. If you go with a class A diesel, make SURE it has a diesel generator - the LP units are only good for about 24 hours of operation on a tank of LP - and then you have no heat, cooking, etc., either.

Or, alternatively, you could buy my 39' LQ transporter and Ford F-550 Crew tow vehicle (30K GCW) for what an older DP motorhome and open trailer would cost. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif


------------------
Norm - #55 ITA, '86 MR2. [email protected]
http://home.alltel.net/jberry/img107.jpg
Website: home.alltel.net/jberry

Have made two 750 mile trips with my Holiday Rambler Diesel pusher. First from Birmingham to Roebling Road, acutally took mileage from Forsythe, Ga. to Roebling and back to Birmingham. With the stock 250hp motor 9.25mpg. Wasn't really happy with the ability to pull hills...those miles with racecar.

Next trip was Birmingham to Natchez, Ms. After installation of the tuning kit. One tank fuel, 10.5mpg which included 36 hours of diesel generator running. No race car, but the thing never shifted out of 6th gear on cruse from Birmingham to Jackson, Ms. there were no hills!!

Next race trip will be to Roebling again in December and am anxious to see what the mileage difference with the tuning kit will be.

My wife and I are really glad we went the older/nicer for the money coach route. Since the coach only has 36k and the generator 211 hours we expect many happy miles ahead.

------------------
Chuck Baader
#36 ITA E30 BMW
Alabama Region Divisional Registrar

You guys are getting terrific milage out of your DP's. I would have to contribute that to your driving. I sell RV's in Central Fl. and we specialize in diesels, Newmar, Holiday Rambler (Monaco). For gas, I would suggest National RV.,(Seabreeze, Dolphin) because of their steel structure. You must reinforce the frame rails if you are going to tow a heavy load on a gas coach, re: racecar, you'd be surprised at the bent frames and floors I've seen over the years.
The diesel class C's haven't been too succesful because of the noise factor, (18 inches inside) and added weight. As in racing, safety is a must. If I can help in anyway, let me know. Don't forget, like a Ferrari, once you buy it, now you must own it ($$$$$), they are wonderful to have at the track and vacations, but can be expensive to maintain.

------------------

Dave, you are certainly correct about "owning it". Maintenance can be worse than the purchase if one is not careful.

My mileage was based on setting the cruse on the highest setting it would accept, 72mph. Sometime I'll find the reference wire and add a dropping resistor so I can set it somewhat higher. Chuck

Dave - yeah. As you probably know, being in the business, the Knight is the fraternal twin of one of the Holiday Ramblers - Ambassador, maybe? Like Chuck, I get a little over 9 MPG with the ISB260.

That said, I've looked at doing a Banks kit on mine, but according to the manuals, it's torque limited to what it has (550 ft/lb) by the T1000 Allison. Also, the Allison seems to be the limiting factor on towing. Any suggestions other that replacing it with a T3000, and do I need to reinforce the rails if I go heavier?

[This message has been edited by ITANorm (edited November 03, 2004).]

Norm, mine has the manual injection 8.3 and the Allison 3040(?) six speed transmission. Called Allison and they gave the max torque rateing at 950ft-lb. The TST tuning kit I installed makes 325hp/920ft-lb and the difference is amazing. BTW, my coach is the Imperial model. Chuck

Lots of good data here. The only thing I will add is this. Don't buy too small. Most go for a class C because they think the size makes them easier to drive...(WRONG) I bought a 22ft class A for my first RV and towing was a joke 454 with 24ft box trailer and 4 to 6 MPG and the thing was working overtime all the time. I bought it because I figured small enough to move around easy.
My current on is a 1995 33ft Monaco DP, tows likw a dream and yes it could be faster up mountains but who cares i'll go fast when I get there. I get between 9 and 11 MPG most always and have seen a little higher if I drive conservative. I walked in on the right day and made the right deal and drive out under 50K. The only negative so far is the LP generator but I am planning on changing that over to diesel next spring. Also remember there are other benefits to owning a coach good financing and you can write them off as a second home.

Looks like there will be a few more diesel Class C's on the market like the Endura.
Jayco has one on their web-site now with an available diesel.
Four Winds also has the FunMover if you want room to take the four wheelers in the back of the coach...

Prices of the available Class C's (base models)looks like it's gonna be on the high side of 100K new... almost better off finding a used Haulmark toterhome. At least with a toter, you have plenty of towing capacity.

[This message has been edited by 2Many Z's (edited November 17, 2004).]

Norm, you are right. The limiting factor is the transmission. In that year, Allison had a contract with "the" government for thousands of transmissions, so the RV industry suffered a bit. I would think the conversion to the T3000 or the old World 3060 or current MH3000, both 6 speeds, could be done, but not very cost effective in IMHO. Then you could take your Cummins right up to 300+hp and 675+ft-lb. But you would never have the torque (towing) of the 8.3,like Chuck's. Is yours a 24 valve?, at this moment I can't remember what the 5.9 was in 2001, too much red haze after the ARRC, I guess.
Joe, I agree with you about buying a too small coach. The number one mistake first time buyers seem to make is buying one too small. As you all should know, the more you use your coach, the smaller it gets. The Ford F-54 chassis with the V-10 and the Workhorse W22/W24 have a much better cramp angle and will make a smaller turning radias than any equal size class C, thus easier to manuever in tight spots (plus no roof overhang to crunch...ahhumm!), heavier rearends and stronger frames make A's better for towing also. The earlier Chevy's have stamped steel frames, hardly any towing capacity at all. The only real advantage to a C over an A, IMHO again, is more sleeping areas, in my buddy's old Dodgesomething class C, our tires stack perfectly in the shower!
David
ITC 510
USST Silverado

------------------