the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Presented with no prejudice, here is just one of the cobblestones:
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the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Presented with no prejudice, here is just one of the cobblestones:
How did you find this?
Stephen
Might be best to Save As if you want a copy.
What is it?
We should all be THRILLED with this. I'd suggest that having this in writing will do the category nothing but good. Big round of applause for the ITAC!
K
LOL!!! That's what I did as soon as I saw what it was.Quote:
Might be best to Save As if you want a copy.
Why would you think it's real?:shrug:
Good to see that is in existence. Not sure it was intended for public consumption, however.
It is, by and large, a very close representation of the SOP when Andy, Kirk and I were on board last.
There are some interesting differences.
One, (Andy, correct me if i'm wrong) adders:
ITS strut cars got -50, right?(wasn't a 'sophisticated suspension' considered 'the norm" for ITS?)*
Live axle ITR cars getting 50 is new. I think that means all the pony car weights will need to be adjusted.
*I'd need to check my notes which I don't have handy.
An interesting aspect is the ITB and now ITC multivalve engines using a standard of 30%. While this was discussed previously, it was based on 'a deal'...and I think ITB was the only class involved. By multivalve, is that 3 and 4? or just 4? Personally, I'd like to see the actual math that leads to the conclusion that all engines with multivalves make 30%. yet those in other classes do not. I assume it is a result of SOME classifications where that is used, and now ALL must match. I see this as an error repeating itself. I also remember certain ITB cars (multivalve?) being classed on 'what we knew", so again, I find those cars are an exception and should not fall under the 30% guideline..
The item on the known horsepower is interesting as well. In general it reflects what was SOP when I was on board, but a recent classification change to the MR2 shows that indeed an incredible amount of data is needed to budge the ITAC from the assumed gains of 30%. All the dyno sheets for IT builds on MR2 motors have indicated that 10-15% max were the actual real world gains. Yet those sheets were evidently not impressive because the car got weighted using 25% factoring.
Good to see the level of detail that has been put into this, and I'm glad that it is reflective, essentially (with caveats over adders) of the Process V2. I would LOVE to have seen this from the actual source, though, not leaked as it appears to be.
Agreed and a part of me wanted to delete this thread not because it should be a secret, but those involved should of had the honor to post it.Quote:
I would LOVE to have seen this from the actual source, though, not leaked as it appears to be.
There's two issues there. On the one hand, it SHOULD require a really compelling stack of evidence to deviate from standard practices - hence the 75% confidence expectation. On the other, standard practice for ITB multivalve cars should *not* be 30%.Quote:
...a recent classification change to the MR2 shows that indeed an incredible amount of data is needed to budge the ITAC from the assumed gains of 30%.
If that's the biggest glitch in how the ITAC is currently doing business, I'll take it.
K
I do not believe it is leaked I believe it is in the file cabinet with the rest of the manuals on the SCCA web site. If you believe that this document should be publicly available so people can read it and understand the process then thank the brave folks of the ITAC and CRB who are trusting you with this knowledge. Use this knowledge wisely for it could be the first step of a revolution of attitude in the way rule processes are done. Misuse this tool and we will enter another thousand years of darkness.
Bravo!!!!!!!
That's excellent Dick. I looked everywhere I could, and logged in, wen to the file cabinet and looked at every category, opening several in the Club Racing category, but didn't find it.
I assume it's on it's way.
Either way, good job to the ITAC for staying the course, and it's great news to hear that it is intended for public consumption.
As soon as it's posted officially, one of us mods will sticky a post here with a link.
So let's do some math....
Formula: HP * P2WRatio*FWD*ITGain +/- Adders = minimum weight?
A mid-1980s FWD Studebaker with factory-rated HP of 91 in ITB.
91 * 17 * .98 * 1.3 = 1971 rounded to nearest 5-pound increment of 1970?
Anything wrong with that math?
If said car is currently classified at 2200lbs, then it "should" be run through the "process" and lose over 200 pounds of ballast?
Am I understanding this correctly or is this car forever doomed to carry the excess weight but similar cars will get classified at the lower weight?
Is this the first category which has released publicly it's classification process?
jjjjjjanos-
no. hp x gain = base weight.
Base weight then gets FWD applied, then adders.
No Jake, that was for ITR only. Not many cars in ITS have DW's. Not sure the situation there but if there is a 50lbs adder in ITS, so be it. I still think it should be by axle.
Could a list of what cars actually are on the list to be reviewed be listed? Many coming out with the next month's Fastrack?Quote:
If you want us to look at a car, write in.
As a present member of the ITAC, I can't tell you how glad I am this thing is finally published, and out there for folks to see and use. I think that this kind of openness is critical to our success as a club, to attracting new members, to attracting new drivers to IT, and to keeping them once they are "in."
I've been racing in IT since 2004, not that long but long enough to remember the "dark ages" of cars being classed curb weight, and huge problems with class killing overdogs.
I was around when folks on IT.com started to talk about a new approach to classing cars, and work started on what is now Version 2 of the Process.
They guys who did a lot of that work deserve the thanks on this, not guys like me. George Roffe, Bill Miller, Darrin Jordan, and of course Kirk, Andy, Jake and Scott. They spent countless hours hashing this stuff out over years, both to make sure it worked across and wide variety of multi-marque cars in IT, and to fight the political battle to get others in the SCCA to accept it.
Josh Sirota, the current ITAC chair, deserves a lot of credit too for actually putting pen to paper and creating this, and having the political smarts to get it approved.
That group of guys have done so much to, in my view, ensure the future health of the category. I'm proud to have played a small role in it.
Great work guys. Much appreciated
What about cars where the process has changed since the last time they were reviewed?
On one hand, it would really be a pain to updated the books when the parameters get tweaked. But on the other, why should existing cars get a penalty (or benefit) just because they've been around longer? That would also serve to give pause to anyone thinking of messing with the formula.
Hey Jeff:
Knock knock; 3G Civic Si/1G CRX Si in ITB? The letter Tom Lamb wrote several years ago where it languished at the bottom of conference call agendas never being gotten to until the request "aged out" and was pocket veto'ed?
Even at a magical Honda 35% (91hp x 1.35 = 123hp) (!!!) x 17 lbs/hp = 2088lbs x the 2% front drive deduct, puts it at 2046 (so 2050) vs. current rulebook weight of 2130. This is a strut/beam axle FWD car, so no other adders/subtractors would apply.
123 crank hp x 0.85 = 104hp at the wheels. That would be perfection and maybe slightly beyond in terms of an IT build for an EW4 motor, and obviously with an optimized aftermarket ECU running the injection.
I do understand that is what the ITAC has to assume, but no matter what the car is pushing 100lbs heavy.
Jeff, in thinking more about this,...
I see a couple issues that will rear their head.
1- the 30% factoring for multivalve cars ONLY in ITB...and now ITC!
What is the operative definition of 'multivalve"? I'm assuming it's more than the standard 2. Right?
2- torque and engine size.
A, there is no guideline as to what IS 'very high torque...or even medium high torque, and the wording allows variable weights be set. I see this as troublesome over time. Identical cars will come to be classed but, if done apart, will likely get different weights. I see the need for more structure here. TOO much wiggle room.
B- the 'standard deviation from the average piston engine size in each class" is good...it's a standard. but, the list shows a range, and choosing the middle of that results in a median. It would be helpful to have the average and the std deviation listed. I realize this is a 'living document, to that might need updating yearly. But, since the class is constantly changing that number will too, and that's problematical to a degree as well.
In any case I'd really like to see more structure in that area, which will really pay off down the road. You'll have less people writing in asking why the math doesn't work on their car.
And on that note, I really think that since you have taken the AWESOME step of publishing, that you use 'born on" dates in the GCR for people to see that their car is meeting the current standard. Over time that will reduce the number of requests you get.
Again, thanks to Jeff and Josh and the others on the ITAC for carrying the torch and achieving this milestone.
I posted a thread on the rrax forum, but know not everyone goes there so I'll post it here too. I also realize that the first reaction some of the ITAC or CRB members might say is "see, this is one of the reasons why we should have kept this private" which is simply not a valid reason. So here it is:
I'm trying to wrap my head around the ITB ONLY multi-valve factor, which has a pretty significant impact on those said cars. (25% > 30% gain estimates)
The first question is why no other classes in IT have this factor? That's extremely odd to me. Either multi valve makes a difference and it needs to be applied to other classes, or not.
Is there a difference in 3 valve and 4 valve? And/or should there be?
How does SOCH multi valve engines (3 or 4 valve) differ from DOCH multi valve engines?
I have several other related questions, but this is a start.
atleast the car has been shown to be competitive recently. Imagine driving a car that hasn't been competitive i a very long time that as it was classed was some 300lbs over weight using known hp. Know thankfully I am down to 200lbs over a "theoretical" power to weight (not incuding the mid engine adder).
What you can do is gather information and submit it to the ITAC for review. Gather engine build sheets, dyno plots, etc.. and work with them and not against them. They are in place to help you not hurt you. Like I mentioned I drive a car that I know is over weight. Am I mad at the ITAC? no.. Am I kinda let down/confused.. sorta. Am I happy that they rolled out a published rule set OHH HELL YEAH!
:shrug:Originally Posted by gran racing
Is this the first category which has released publicly it's classification process?
It's public but not by any official. And it certainly gives the community much to ponder. Don't come to any conclusions about any new corporate politic, paradigm, rapprochement, etc based on what you're reading.
Without prejudice, the rules as they existed about 15 years ago were pretty excellent. The upset many now have is largely a result of rules meddling (creep)over the last 15 years. Be careful what you pray for.
Could you explain that in a little more detail please?
Thank you.
questions in particular about the subjective rules.
My first one, is one that has been brought up many times before. tq.
how come ITB and ITC don't get a adder for low displacement but they do for high displacment? Does low tq not have much of an effect as having high tq?
second. the rules state tq or displacement.. I would assume they would use a weight/tq value to adjust. Much like how peak hp is treated. Has the ITAC assigned those values?
At first I couldn't figure out where the "normal" displacments came from. then I went through the entire ITCS makign note of over and unders in each catagory. And the numbers are close to being right. If you take the whole ITCS the numbers posted are close to the norm. The reason why at first glance I was congused is that if you look at the cars normally run on the weekends they tend to be on the low range of the spectrum. The honda contigent in ITB is stong, the majority of them are 1.5L Though in ITB there was only 3 cars above the threshold. Teh plymoth fire arrow, the fiero, and a certain model year celica. I would say lower it to 2.0L, but there are a SLEW of cars classed with 2.0L that are not actively raced and probably don't make all that much tq. (One reason why I am not a fan of displacement). compared to the tq that a honda 2.0L or a ford 2.3L make.
any input would be appreciated from the ITAC.
I'm not entirely sure what your question is (probably my fault), but as to ITB and ITC, I believe the thinking was there really couldn't be a low torque/low displacement car in a class where most motors were in the 1.3 to 1.8 range. Nothing was "abnormally low," while some motors in B were abnormally high.
the posted normal displacment range for ITB is 1.7L to 2.3L. Which according to the ITCS is about right.. not so right from what actively runs however. so while most ITB cars that actually run are between 1.3L and 1.8L, meaning that if there wa a wight break the majority of cars curretly would get one as they are below 1.7L as published in the guidlines.
My question was..
1.) So would you think it would be best to set the norm engine displacment on what is on the ITCS or what actually shows up on track?
2.) has the ITAC determined a low tq, high tq numbers (I assume they are in weight/tq). The rules state they that both tq or displacment would be used.
I agree with what is as currently written I don't think cars in ITB below 1.7L need an adder (subtractor) As this would be the majority of cars run would be entitled to a weight adjsutment. I don't think that is necessary or right. I think lowering upper limit would be more apporiate to reflect what is run.
One idea, (though would totaly change the process). Is something pro racing has done for years.
your weight is set by both your hp and tq. This has been discussed a few times since I have been here and there are some outliners (RX-anything). But beyond that it should work. Maybe that is something Process v.4.2 can use. :D
It's as official as this kind of thing gets - it's a set of operational guidelines but not a "rule" that can be protested. What more could we realistically want?
And as far as "the rules as they existed about 15 years ago were pretty excellent," everyone is allowed their opinion but I cannot conceive of ANY metric by which that is the case. None. And I'm a curmudgeon.
K
How much thought/math/testing has gone into this torque adder? What concerns me is that most high torque engines cannot rev and therefore must shift sooner and operate at a mechanical disadvantage... Was this taken into account?