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I am looking for an IT car to build for next year and have never done this before so I have some questions
A. type of car I am looking at is a 93 acura integra a 92 elclipse 90 chevy beretta and I have an 86 prelude already in the back of the garage not sure which of these would be the best to start building I found good deals on the ones listed. also any good tips on starting points to building the car
Your question has been asked many times on this board and if you do a search under "building an IT car" or something similar you will find a discussion thread related to your question. You can also visit the SCCA website at www.scca.com for some answers.
Are you a SCCA or NASA member? If not, you really need to join one of these organizations to see how they do things before asking about building a car. There is a lot more to this than picking out a car in your garage and making a race car out of it.
One piece of advice that I always offer when I see a question like yours is for that person to get themselves out to a SCCA regional race to look around at the cars currently being raced and direct your questions to the competitors there. You will get the answers you are looking for and more. I have always found the teams to be willing to offer advice to anyone interested in getting involved in SCCA.
I ended up crewing and racing with a team which taught me far more than I could have learned from spending my time on a discussion board.
None of this is meant to slam you, but to point out that you would best get your answers by taking in an SCCA or NASA race weekend.
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Bob Pinkowski
Atlanta Region SCCA
OPM Motorsports
ITS Honda Prelude
[This message has been edited by bobpink (edited September 24, 2003).]
just sent in my app and ordered the rule book and looking to attend a few races in the next few weeks but as far as the car buying goes I have found the ones I mentioned and need to act pretty quick if I am going to get one of them ... so any of the discussion board help and insight to help me while I am at home in between going to races will be good
First thing to do is get a GCR, and determine where any of these cars are classified. The 93 Acura is classified in ITA, if it's not the "GSR" version. I've only seen a few of the 2nd gen Integra's competitive. Not sure about the 3rd gen.
The 86 Prelude is classified in ITB. Eclips is classified in ITA, but I haven't ever seen one on the track.
The Acura and Honda have many go-fast parts available, so if you already have the Prelude, I'd start from there.
Things to start out: Is the Prelude running? If so, don't touch the engine. Get a header, baffled oil pan, and an oil cooler. Remove all of the interior, head liner, sound deading junk, leave the dashboard, heater core, and blower. You might need those depending upon where in the country your at.
How are you planning on getting this thig to the track? Drive it? Tow dolly it? Trailer?
You'll need at least the following: 6 point cage, 8 point would be better. Bolt in is the cheapest, but only meets the minimum safety requirements. Racing seat, window net, 5 point harness, fire bottle, DOT racing tires on your stock rims, Hawk or some kind of racing pad on your stock brakes. Don't also forget your safety gear. 3 layer suit, nomex underwear and socks, gloves, helmet, racing shoes/boots, beleclava.
If that doesn't eat up all of your starting budget, then I'd go with coil-overs with camber plates, steel braided lines, LSD for your diff, aftermarket (lighter) wheels.
Hope this helps.
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Tim Linerud
San Francisco Region SCCA
#95 GP Wabbit (Bent)
http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/index.html
Rage:
Where are you located? Try and connect with other racers in your area to learn more about it all. Also, do some research into results of each vehicle in the SCCA. No point in building a car that won't be competitive (unless you know that going into it and are willing to use that car as a stepping stone to something else. Like, say Formula Continental or T2).
As for searching the site, good luck. The search engine hasn't been working right for a little while now, so you may or may not find what you need. Instead, change the view settings to show the past year of topics and just work your way through the ones that look interesting.
Oh, and buy a rule book. It will save you money in the long run!
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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com
well I figure I will go with the prelude that will leave me the extra cash to start working with .. the engine is solid just have an ignition bug to work out of it..
as far as trhe cage goes I have found a weld in and have someone lined up to weld it for me.. thank god for family members who are machinists and welders.. as far as a budget goes well it goes as far as I can until the wife starts finding the receipts laying around lol .. I dont plan to drive this except on the track.. I have a race seat laying around except it is a kirkey circle track seat and am I better running stock fuel trank or putting in a cell which I have a friend who has one and will probably donate to the cause.. and as far as winning and being competetive I really just want to get the feet wet so if I lose I learned something if I win I either got lucky or learned more than I realized..
Don't bother with the fuel cell at first. It requires MUCH more plumbing / wiring with the stock FI than you realize. It took me 2 years to get all of the gremlins out of switching from IT to GP with regards to fuel pickup, sump tank, 2nd pump, etc.
Just remember, that the circle track seat is only designed for 1 direction, and depending upon the tracks that you will be road racing at, might not be the best solution.
Where are you located?
Tim
[This message has been edited by racer_tim (edited September 24, 2003).]
You're going to get a lot of advice to buy instead of build. Good advice. But mine is slightly different.
If you decide you want to build a car instead of buy, you need to ask yourself two questions.
1) Why build instead of buy?
2) Why this particular car?
You'd better have rock solid answers for both and it shouldn't be to save money. You can get on the track for less by buying a car with a current logbook.
I'm building my first race car, but 1) I can (and do) race a friend's car pretty much whenever I want. 2) I personally would probably not save a whole lot if I bought a pre-built car because the first thing I'd likely do is strip it down and redo a pretty fair amount, including the cage. That doesn't make sense for me to buy then.
If you are building a car because you like that particular car, realize you may not have much hope of being competitive.
I personally would do a bit more research before committing any dollars.
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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
I am in Ohio
Rage Racing,
You probably have avoided a series of mistakes by finding this site and posting questions to it. From my own experience the question is not simply to buy or build. It has to be further qualified in terms of what you buy or your capabilities of building a car.
I bought a car (1st gen RX7) that I ignorantly thought was well set-up. To make a long story short, it was very difficult to drive. It had a tailhappy disposition. Through this site and advice from experienced RX7 guys, I discovered Jim Susko's set-up manual and suspension parts. As it turns out, many of the "improvements" that were done to the car and utilized as selling points when I bought it were actually causing many of my handling problems. As a result, I have sunk a few grand into redoing the suspension and several other things on the car. I raced for the first time in two years at Watkins Glen a couple of weekends ago, and it is a new car.
The trade off of rebuilding this race car is sacrificing seat time. I earned my competition license in 2000 and I have only logged five race weekends. My lack of driving experience is very apparent and hopefully I now have a driveable car that I can start to develop those skills. However, on the bright side, I can now weld.
If I could do it over, I would have bought a SPEC-7 and spent the additional money on race weekends.
My advice is to spend time crewing for people at various tracks. Learn about the culture of SCCA, and what it takes to place a car on the track. Keep asking questions.
Bill Emery
ITA#23
Glen Region
thanks for all the advise and please keep the advise coming I can use all I can get
I'm in my first year racing, and I've gotten a lot of great help and advice here on the board, and out on the track. All the answers that have been posted so far are right on. Change your "Preferences" here on the board (look in the upper right corner of the page) - you can view topics from the past year or more, and see what advice has already been given to newbies, and also see old discussions about prep (and problems) on the specific car models.
I bought a car that I thought was "ready" - and spent the season removing everything the former owner installed - things I had paid a premium to get. If I bought a "built" car again, it would only be one I had seen race, and only from a racer I trusted (either someone I know or someone known by people I respect). From my own rather painful experience - there is no such thing as saving money in racing. What looks like the cheaper way going in often ends up being the expensive way in the end. Particularly true with building a car - that's why they're saying it has to be a labor of love. Figure that every dollar you spend improving the car will add about 25 cents to its value - and only if you do it right (or find a sucker to buy it). Look twice before you leap - unless your goal is to hate racing so you can save your money for some other hobby. :-)
Consider renting a car your first year, so you can focus on driving skills instead of getting the bugs out of the car.
There are always cars for sale - don't worry about losing this or that deal. Find out what you're getting into first, then worry about getting the right deal. And consider volunteering before racing - it helps to know folks, and you learn a lot about racing, the other drivers, and the organization. I wouldn't have stuck it out this long without the help and encouragement of the workers and other drivers - I can't even imagine what a miserable year it would have been if, in addition to having my car break again and again, the workers had thought my tension and confusion were impatience and egotism. Talk to the other drivers at the track - they'll show you their setups, give you advice and encouragement, and welcome you into the fold. I can't speak for others, but if a newbie showed up offering to crew for me, I'd welcome him or her - and I'd certainly let them play with my car (I had a crew person, once, and she drove my car in a High Performance Driving Event - HPDE).
P.S. You didn't mention driving experience - you can run HPDEs and autocross in a street car, which is a cheaper way to get started while building car control skills that will help when you start racing.
well if any of you are in or around ohio and need help at an event let me know... I would love the chance to play with some of you guys and or gals...
Rage
I will mirror what the others have said about building a car. Think very carefully. If you think you have an adequate budget for a build-double it. It took over a year for me to get our car track ready and logbooked. You can do a school in a rental, such as the deals offered by EntropyRacing.
If you are anywhere near BeaveRun-that is my home track. Nelson Ledges is closer to Cleveland and one of the older facilities. Both are excellent to visit and work at with a race team. Whatever you do-do not start your build without the rulebooks. The NASA CCR is online at their website. The GCR will arrive in both print and CD-ROM form. REad them both very carefully. We are also here to help point you the right way.
well as far as the reason for building ..over all its a winter project I could buy but I would rather have it the way i want it as I go.. not a rock solid reason but hey i am just wierd that way.. but between everyone here the rulebooks and my own macgyver sense I think it will work out okay ...
I am in my first year of racing...I am building a car but decided to buy one to use for the first year or two. If you buy a car that has a good history that is a big plus...you don't want the thing to die during school or be trying to fix something during your school...you are WAY too busy.
The guy who built my car messed up. I think he sent the engine out for rebuild and had the roll cage welded in for him, because they're the only things that seem alright. But the engine blew up the first time I raced it because he had redone the floor pans and never replaced the accelerator stop (and I didn't know there was supposed to be one, so I never checked for it). (insert long litany of failures and replacements here) I had to rewire the kill switch, after I replaced the alternator, regulator, and battery - and now I've got a new electrical problem. I'm going to replace the wiring harness because it's the only thing left from the prior owner, besides the roll cage. Essentially, I've replaced everything he touched in my efforts to make the car run reliably. So, although I've never "built" a racecar, I have a decent grasp on the consequences of doing it wrong.
I've been building a car without wanting to do it. I don't have a shop, didn't plan to build, and don't have the time for countless hours of anal-retentive research on how to install racing components in a street car. There's no Chilton's guide for the "ITS 240z", and I can't learn how to install a fuel cell by looking at how the old one came out. One particularly frustrated day, I was tempted to call a buddy and ask how he learned all this racing mechanics stuff, then I realized the answer - he started with a race car, then he built another one. He had something to model.
Argument in favor of building: If building without a guide is hard, troubleshooting without a guide, or even the original crappy instruction sheets, is even harder. Solution: buy a proven car, preferably from an owner you know.
No one is telling you not to build - we're just warning you that it's a hobby that only appeals to a very narrow segment of the population. A lot of other people do it for the wrong reasons, and end up hating it. It's extremely difficult - I've found lots of great advice, and I'm still utterly lost. If you're building without the requisite skill and knowledge, you'll make expensive mistakes (the guy who built my car did!). Another argument in favor of crewing for someone with the type of car you want to build - you'll be playing with a "prototype", see what works, see what breaks, and you'll get to ask questions before you buy the wrong component, or install it wrong.
Another thing... I'd love to have you crew for me, but the airfare would get pricey. :-)
See if there's a new driver or new member program, and sign up. Go to the track next race. Walk around the paddocks, and check out the cars that you think you might want to race. Introduce yourself to the driver/crew, and tell them why you're checking out their car. I've found folks are AMAZINGLY receptive to new members, and willing to show off their car prep. Just be considerate of when you approach - if they're about to go on track, or dealing with an emergency repair, come back later.
Tell them that you're interested in crewing for someone to get some experience - ask if they'd be interested in the help, or if they know someone else who would be. On a good weekend, crewing means checking the oil; on a bad day, it means replacing the engine. Don't expect glory and excitement - but good weekends leave lots of time for asking "what's that?" and "how often do you replace this?" - the things you *really* want to know!
Building it the way you want is a good enough reason if you have good reasons for the things you want to do besides "I just want it this way." I guess I'm saying your "reasons" should be largely for function, not for cool. Keep in mind, excellent, tidy preparation it very much functional.Quote:
Originally posted by rage_racing:
well as far as the reason for building ..over all its a winter project I could buy but I would rather have it the way i want it as I go.. not a rock solid reason but hey i am just wierd that way.. but between everyone here the rulebooks and my own macgyver sense I think it will work out okay ...
Maybe I'm overstating that a little, but many people have built cars "the way they wanted them" only to build a illegal or shabby car. Analyze the rulebook. Trust me, it's your friend, not your enemy.
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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
which part??Quote:
Originally posted by rage_racing:
I am in Ohio
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-Scott Gallimore
-ITC #88 Pulsar
Rage Racing,
ITS240z18 has gone to great effort to make the same point I was attempting. Building a car is difficult. In both our cases it was forced on us with a learning curve under duress.
Additionally, I forgot to also mention the blatently illegal suspension parts that came with the car. I removed them based on my sense of ethics and what bothers me is that I paid for them when I bought the car. Adjustable front trailing arms and an additional bar welded between the rear shock towers provided no real advantage other than creating an easy protest.
Therefore, one main advantage to crewing for people, is that if you decide to buy, you could have an experienced friend to join you when looking at a potential car and help in negotiations and determine if their are potential problems, illegalities or technical based.
If you are determined to build a car, that is fine since the car is sitting in your garage. Maybe you should do it in phases. Build it as an autocross car to start. Solo II is inexpensive one day fun. Next, install safety equipment and turn it into a Solo I car. Run some hillclimbs. These events are not bad tows if you are in the eastern half of Ohio. I am not sure if anyone has yet to mention the grand you will drop in personal safety equipment alone. Since the mid 90's my wife has done birthday and Christmas shopping for me from racing catalogs and she has been conviently provided exact part numbers. The point is that unless you have lots of disposable income, getting into road racing has to be gradual.
I believe Mike or Mark Cefelo of Cefelo Motorworks had a Prelude running in ITA and for sale a couple of year ago. You may want to contact them in terms of what it would take to build the car.
Where in Ohio are you located?
Bill Emery
Glen Region
ITA#23
Rage Racing,Quote:
Originally posted by RX767:
I am not sure if anyone has yet to mention the grand you will drop in personal safety equipment alone.
You are getting some excellent advice here.
Don't forget that you can hang around the track crewing, see if you like it, rent a car for a school and be on your way to road racing. Personally, I skipped part one and was on the track in days getting driver's school credit--without having to buy a car.
If you have the time and inclination to build, fine. But that is not your only option.
Regarding safety equipment, get the good stuff. It doesn't cost much more and will be more comfortable to use. We can lend you some product for your first time out.
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Gregg Baker
Isaac, LLC
[email protected]
From someone who built his car before checking the board:
1) If you have a budget, double it. Seriously. You have all the big things down, it's all the little stuff that kills you (why a kill switch costs $60 is beyond me! And, $5 per stick for cage padding? Come on!)
2) Take you time. Do not expect to be on track and racing within the first year with your car. I had mine on track about a year after I started on it, but it wasn't at a drivers school or race, just a lapping day. This showed me what else needed to be done to the car and also let me start learning how to drive.
3) You will begin to hate working on the car. There will be points at which you don't even want to look at the thing. Depending on how things go, you may go through periods of anxiety and/or depression. Be prepared for this and, more importantly, be aware of this and spend some time away from the car. Your loved ones will thank you for this!
If you decide to buy a car, here are some of the things I've learned:
1) KNOW THE RULES!! Go over the car looking for rules infractions. If they exist, know that you will have to fix them and what that will cost. Fixing an illegal suspension component is easier than fixing a cage, but still a PITA.
2) Buy from someone who is still racing the car. Preferrably, buy it from him/her at the track, just after he/she have finished a race. Watch the car and learn what it does. If they offer lunch touring laps, take the car out for that and see how it feels, even at reduced speeds.
3) Get all the notes and history you can with the car. Someone who has kept detailed notes about setup, wins/losses, tire histories, etc, will probably charge more for the car, but it will most likely pay off in the long term. The more you know, the better off you are.
Well, that's all I can think of for now. Building a car, especially an oddball, can be fun (especially when you see others winning with your car model!), but it takes time and patience. If you want to be on track next year, either a) get divorced, sell the house and move into a garage or B) buy an existing car (or c) rent!).
Oh, and for peace in you life, make sure your wife is involved in the decisions and is aware of everything that you are doing. If you start hiding stuff from her, either your racing career is going to be short or your marriage will be!
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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com
Absolutely!Quote:
Originally posted by gsbaker:
Regarding safety equipment, get the good stuff.
Remember, your life depends upon it. I'm serious as a heart-attack. When I was racing karts, my Bell helmet saved my life. I don't mean to make it out to be bigger than it was, but I don't want to make out to be less either. The helmet did it's job as all safety equipment should. Get good safety equipment. You never know what is going to happen to you. Remember, you're sharing the track with others and, well, things happen.
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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
okay well once again kick arse advise from all.. Thanks
well on the good side I have secured 2 honda technicians who well one was easily bribed for beer and the other is literally alive because I saved him... BTW I am a paramedic and this guy was in one of the worst accidents I have ever seen.. so when I talked to him today he jumped all over it for me.. so a good start is away.. and a hell of a long way to go...
I look forward to kicking the fenders and doors in frustration I am warped I guess. and as far as finances go well they are tight but I think I can swing it..
I live in Lima Ohio and will be willing to do some in state or close out of state driving to help with or check out some of you guys work.. and or crew during races
also while I am in the question asking arena what is the best cost vs. weight/strength to use for the cage I have it lined up to be put in next month. just need to decide which avenue of tubing to go with
If you are interested in a street version of the '93ish Integra, I know a guy who has one that he has been looking to sell. I can vouch for its mechanical condition, having looked at it myself. Email me if you are interested.
Kirk
PS - it's in N. Virginia.
The tubing for the roll cage depends on the weight of the car. Again, the GCR has it spelled out for you. You might want to talk to KIRK Racing in Mt. Olive, Alabama-that is where I bought mine. The quality of their products is outstanding and it will conform to the rules.
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Grandpa's toys-modded suspensions and a few other tweaks
'89 CRX Si-SCCA ITA #99
'99 Prelude=a sweet song
'03 Dodge Dakota Club Cab V8-Patriot Blue gonna tow
Here are a few questions you really need to answer...
- Do you care how competitive you are when you get out on the track? Or is running mid to the back of the pack o.k. for the first few years? And I'm definately not saying it can't be fun! There are always races within the race.
- How much time do you have to spend building the car? Even if you don't do much to it, just the basics, it can be time consuming and pretty stressful. If you are looking to race next spring and decide to build your own car, get started now!
- How much money can you spend on the project. Of course if you build the car, you can ease you way into it. Maybe build it to a point to get out on the track, sell it in a few years and BUY a real race car. (Basically my plan)
If you haven't done any HPDEs, definately do so before running with SCCA - take a year to do these events. If you decide to build a car, also use this time to build it to meet the GCR rules.
So, is your prelude an si? I race an 1987 Prelude si in the new england region. Unfortunately it is in ITA and will never be a front runner in that class. I was basically in the same situation you are in now. Had the car and it wasn't being used for much. I basically did very little to the car. Safety gear, suspension, exhaust and that's about it. Oh, can't forget the junk yard rims.
As for aftermarket parts being readily avail. for this car, not really true. I had Leda build me a custom suspension because I couldn't find anyone who already had one designed for the car.
I do really enjoy the car overall and think it is a great beginner car. Sometimes novices get in cars that are too much for them to handle. If you make a mistake, that's o.k. because your car has enough HP to make up for it. Not this car. Kinda like some of the other lower HP cars. If you screw up, you'll definately know it on the next straight. In that situation, everybody will just fly right by you. Well, many cars will fly by you anyways but you get my point. The good thing is that it forces you to drive correctly. I feel that it will make you a better driver.
This can definately be said about the ITC guys (the cars with the least HP). Notice I didn't say slowest cars. In my opinion, these drivers are some of the best I've seen. (and yes, there are plenty in other classes in the NER) I'm amazed at what they can do with such little HP. They never use the brakes because they can't afford to!
Sorry, getting a bit off track here (not again!). If you decide to build your prelude, let me know. Maybe I can give you some useful ideas - [email protected]
Good luck! Dave
it has the 1.8 L SOHC Dual Carb engine
and as far as being competitive well I wanna race and learn.. and learning is not gonna be a problem whether I am in the front or back of the pack..
time for building is plenty for me .. budget is kinda low thats why I am pretty much doing the whole thing top to bottom myself..
as for the car I love the way it handles off the line so I figure with a few susp. changes it will be even better then as you said being that it wont be the fastest car out there I will have to concentrate on learning to drive it to make up for HP..
well the interior is completely out minus the upper dash and head board.. only took about 2 hrs measuring up the cage tonight.. and hopefully it will be in and complete in about a month..
Well, if that's your motivation....Quote:
Originally posted by rage_racing:
budget is kinda low thats why I am pretty much doing the whole thing top to bottom myself..
I know where you can get a ITA RX-7 with spare engine, gearbox, and a boatload of other stuff for $3,500.
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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com