The E36 325 needs more power - FLAME ON!!!

Apparently the E36 325 is not fast enough and needs more cam. So there is a Group N cam out there available from Europe. I have seen it in a few other cars and know it is on the market. You can pick them up for about $3-4k for a set (not cheap!) and get the car tuned for them for maybe 10 more Hp max. They were never delivered into a car in the US or any other market, so they are definitely not legal. But I am not sure SCCA will be able to figure out if we use them. They have more duration, but only a Cam Dr. will be able to tell.

So we have two choices:
1)Use the illegal cam that people are starting to use. We will make more power (so will they), spend more money, and generally give an already gifted car even more of an advantage. The end result - the BMW goes over the top, I mean enough to make SCCA change the whole fundamental basis of the IT system, and we are all poorer and in the end slower or certainly no faster for our effort. Now it takes $50 or 60k to race an E36 and make it fast enough to hang with the field because the baseline was a car with cheater parts. Or worse, ITS dies because budgets keep creeping to cover all the expensive trick parts required to win.

2)Figure out exactly how to tell this cam apart from the legal US stock part and work to enforce the rule.

I am going for #2. I am 100% satisfied that our engines make absolutely the most power that can be legally put out of a BMW M50. I am not saying anyone can't match us, but you aren't going to make enough more to make an obvious difference on the straight. If anyone would like to install the Group N cams, feel free. I have a set on order and will be sending them to be profiled or even for SCCA to hold (we are working out the details). If any BMW pulls us significantly on a long straight, say VIR in May or at the ARRC at RA, I will protest them and put up the required bond (not the BS $8k number that is wildly out of the ballpark - I received $0 for proving I had a legal motor at the ARRC). I will also protest a couple of other suspect parts in the driveline.

I don't think this is arrogant - I know we have put in the development to build the best and I have compared with a couple of other similar BMW cars that have come up with the same final result for power from other shops.

Am I way off on this? I think IT has got to be self policing. I don't know every trick in an RX-7 or 240, but I am willing to help keep the cars I know legal. Thoughts?

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-----------------------------------------------------------
James Clay
http://www.bimmerworld.com
Engineered BMW Performance
World Challenge/SCCA/BMWCCA Racecar Rental
Genuine OEM and Used BMW Parts
(540) 639-9648
-----------------------------------------------------------

James.

I must commend your actions in regards to trying to keep the Group N cam from making it's way into the ITS field.

I agree with you 100%...Police the rule! What's the purpose of the rules if they're not enforced?

As you have stated (sort of..), the E36 is an incredible car to have as a base for a race car. One might say it's the top dog of the day. Your (legal)developement (and a few others)has given the rest of the ITS class a high bar to shoot for.

Cheers,




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Allen Brown
#36 IT1
[email protected]

James,

Good for you. If you wanna run with the BimmerWorld cars, BUY ONE! I commend you also for self policing and protecting your investment.

We have been dealing with SpeedSource a lot lately and I can tell you that these guys who have built their reputaions on building fast cars in such a small market like IT have to run their sh** by the book.

I can't wait to read about your policing in Fastrack! Weed out the cheaters and put them on display!

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com

I applaud the effort, James - thank you! I only wish that every competitor had the resrouces, technical knowledge, and guts to step up like this.

Best,

Kirk

Quote:

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<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">...I am going for #2...and will be sending them to be profiled or even for SCCA to hold...I will protest them and put up the required bond...</font>

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Dude, you are making it SO hard for me to hate you...

Greg

Quote:

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Originally posted by ITSRX7:
James,

Good for you. If you wanna run with the BimmerWorld cars, BUY ONE! I commend you also for self policing and protecting your investment.

---

You don't have to buy one of our cars - just do it right and do it legally. Kip did most of the work on his car and we ran neck and neck. This is not really protecting our investment directly either. If this kind of stuff keeps going, all of ITS (or IT) is going to take a hit, not just our little corner of the market. This feels too much like the most recent slide that led to Motec.

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-----------------------------------------------------------
James Clay
http://www.bimmerworld.com
Engineered BMW Performance
World Challenge/SCCA/BMWCCA Racecar Rental
Genuine OEM and Used BMW Parts
(540) 639-9648
-----------------------------------------------------------

Ya know... just in case any of you were wondering about the timing of all this cam stuff and all that I will enhance a few things so some of you can clearly read between the lines...

We know for a FACT of several E36s running these cams and flywheels as well. This is to be considered both an effort to help SCCA monitor and police this cheating and two... THIS IS A WARNING SHOT!!! If it appears that any of these specific cars arrive with these illegalities in place they WILL go through a teardown. At that time (as early as VIR in May) everything will be done to bring the SCCA up to speed on how to detect and recognize these items. Don't be stupid and run these. There is no justification for it. These cars are already fast enough and are already under enough scrutiny from the IT masses.

I know it might sound weird hearing E36
guys comlaining about another car's speed but we have been doing it legally and only expect our competition to do the same.

Cheaters suck.

James you da Man even if you do eat like a caveman Fogo Boy. http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

Robbie

James why dont you run a big 'ole group buy and let everyone have the cams... then it'll be better competition http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

(this is steve by the way).

But for real now, I think this is a fine thing to be done. As these "amatuer" teams are having bigger budgets and more success moving into higher and higher ranking racing competitions, I think the rules need to be kept straight as well. Because "breaking" only a couple small rules can make a huge difference between close competition.

Goodluck, and I think I need one fo your engine to test...i'll make sure its the fastest http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

I might even see yall on the track next year (time permitting)... E36 WC car http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by 95M3Racer (edited April 03, 2003).]

Get'em
http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

Now i wish i was going to VIR in May, but it will still be fun to see how it pans out for the ARRC.

James, you are correct that we have to police our ranks, but how? The current protest rules are difficult, expensive, & designed to discourage protests fo this nature.

I suggest that we take a page from the local dirt track boys and institute a claiming policy. By using a claim that is set low enough, the incentive for exotic parts (read prices) goes away rather quickly when someone can loose their engine or entire car at a fraction of the cost that they have in it.

Not only will this keep the spending level down to a manageable level, it will promote competitiveness and help add to the size of the fields.

What's everyone's thoughts?

Mr Beren

I dont like the idea of someone buying my motor.

My brother used to race mini-stock with his old ITB 320i and they had a 400$ buy out rule. It would have cost us close to 1000$ to replace the engin. Not because we had done lots of stuff to the motor, but simple because a BMW engin cost more than a pinto's.

That is true for IT. The cost for different makes is astrinomical. A e36 moter cost how much more to build than a honda motor? What about the older vintage cars like the Healy? I don't want to know how much it would be to build one of those. There simply is no way to make a fair going price to sell all motor's at. That is true with in ITS and even more so if you compair ITS to other classes like ITB. An ITS motor cost how many times more than any ITC motor?

To put a price on motors would kill the diversity. I think IT is popular because several makes in each class can compeet. I built my suzuki to be different. I wouldnt be able to run the car at all because every time I would take it to a race someone would buy my motor just to sell it at some % profit. There is a reason 99% of the fields are pinto's at circle tracks and it aint cause theyre fast.

I think the system can work as it stands. The way it stands now the protester must do their homework before they file a protest, if they want to get their money back. I dont see why that is a bad thing.

James-

If we're ever in the same place at the same time, introduce yourself, and I'll buy you a beer!



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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

James,.. any truth to the rumor that 92 non vanos cams are hotter / better than vanos cams? These group N cams similar to 92's?..

I think they are hotter, but I don't think they will bolt in the vanos engine. Never tried it. The 92 is fairly different internally.

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James Clay
http://www.bimmerworld.com
Engineered BMW Performance
World Challenge/SCCA/BMWCCA Racecar Rental
Genuine OEM and Used BMW Parts
(540) 639-9648
-----------------------------------------------------------

[quote]Originally posted by James Clay:
[B] So there is a Group N cam out there available from Europe. But I am not sure SCCA will be able to figure out if we use them.

James, Why do you think SCCA will not be able to figure out if you use a Group N cam?

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"Bad" Al Bell
ITC #3 Datsun 510
DC Region MARRS Series

Because of the numerous part numbers and lack of information from BMW. It looks like the cam doctor can tell though...

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James Clay
http://www.bimmerworld.com
Engineered BMW Performance
World Challenge/SCCA/BMWCCA Racecar Rental
Genuine OEM and Used BMW Parts
(540) 639-9648
-----------------------------------------------------------

Quote:

---

Originally posted by James Clay:
Because of the numerous part numbers and lack of information from BMW. It looks like the cam doctor can tell though...

---

It would seem to me that numerous part numbers would HELP identify illegal cams, not hinder the process. Lack of info from BMW should not be an issue. Many other companies, i.e. VW provide no cam specs in their workshop manuals. What makes this Group N cam so special?


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"Bad" Al Bell
ITC #3 Datsun 510
DC Region MARRS Series

??? How can you ID cams if every individual cam has a different part number on it? Especially if BMW won't provide a key to what the numbers mean!

My ARRC cams were compared against used stock and new from the dealer - all matching. The Group N has more duration. Maybe it isn't special. Maybe it is the same as the 240 cams and recent Spec Miata cams. But I know that our cars shouldn't be any faster at this point for the sake of competition for the entire class. When the Porsche or other starts winning on a regular basis, I may lose my Cam Dr. data...

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James Clay
http://www.bimmerworld.com
Engineered BMW Performance
World Challenge/SCCA/BMWCCA Racecar Rental
Genuine OEM and Used BMW Parts
(540) 639-9648
-----------------------------------------------------------

Quote:

---

Originally posted by James Clay:
??? How can you ID cams if every individual cam has a different part number on it? Especially if BMW won't provide a key to what the numbers mean!

Snip
AB Response:
If every cam, has a different number, it sounds more like a serial number than a part number. But, it does not really matter. The only way to tell per the GCR is to use the Cam Dr.

Snip

When the Porsche or other starts winning on a regular basis, I may lose my Cam Dr. data...

---

That almost sounds like if another car beats you, you will change cams to win? I hope I read that wrong.

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"Bad" Al Bell
ITC #3 Datsun 510
DC Region MARRS Series

[This message has been edited by badal (edited April 12, 2003).]

I'm not trying to be a smartass, but firing a shot like this across the bow of an E36 builder might cause cheating in another area(keeping stock cams-knowing what'll be protested)

Anyway-does the SCCA publish the profiles of the cams they check? If a standard is set, they should make it clear. No excuses then.

James, you brought up the Spec Miata cams. How does one know if their stock cams will compare legally to cams already profiled? I've found a Miata website giving duration numbers for "stock" cams that aren't close to what I've gotten on two sets of bone stock cams(from used engines-matching each other)

Kessler

Quote:

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Originally posted by badal:
That almost sounds like if another car beats you, you will change cams to win? I hope I read that wrong.

---

It was a semi-serious JOKE. I won't do it, but it is a sore subject. Other cars mix and match cams with heads they weren't originally paired with. This cam is the only big thing that we could have left in our back pocket if required. I think my opinion of the cam should be fairly obvious at this point, no?

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James Clay
http://www.bimmerworld.com
Engineered BMW Performance
World Challenge/SCCA/BMWCCA Racecar Rental
Genuine OEM and Used BMW Parts
(540) 639-9648
-----------------------------------------------------------

Quote:

---

Originally posted by MK:
I'm not trying to be a smartass, but firing a shot like this across the bow of an E36 builder might cause cheating in another area(keeping stock cams-knowing what'll be protested)

---

Not a huge advantage in anything else. Besides, if you are going to tear down, do it right - I am very aware of the other parts out there.

Quote:

---

James, you brought up the Spec Miata cams. How does one know if their stock cams will compare legally to cams already profiled? I've found a Miata website giving duration numbers for "stock" cams that aren't close to what I've gotten on two sets of bone stock cams(from used engines-matching each other)

---

Don't get me started. From what I understand (this means don't quote me), there are several cams, including the one trick cam. There was a problem with a protest on the trick cam, which apparently Maxda supplied as stock, and Mazda backed up the part number. This is the cam to have, but I don't know enough about the system to know if there is a way to order it specifically or what it takes to get one.

See what I mead Badal? Factory part, factory spec, no one knows the tolerances so this could even be a legal part.

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-----------------------------------------------------------
James Clay
http://www.bimmerworld.com
Engineered BMW Performance
World Challenge/SCCA/BMWCCA Racecar Rental
Genuine OEM and Used BMW Parts
(540) 639-9648
-----------------------------------------------------------

I want to thank everyone for doing the right thing at VIR this weekend. It seems that all of the E36 cars that showed up for the weekend didn't have the cam advantage. Good work guys - it is better for the class this way, I promise.

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James Clay
http://www.bimmerworld.com
Engineered BMW Performance
World Challenge/SCCA/BMWCCA Racecar Rental
Genuine OEM and Used BMW Parts
(540) 639-9648
-----------------------------------------------------------

James,
Maybe they were all cheating? BMW's won both days?
Relax, just kidding.
Too bad the Ed York/Seth Thomas/Chet Whittel battle never happened.

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"Bad" Al Bell
ITC #3 Datsun 510
DC Region MARRS Series

Oh don't worry we weren't cheating. But I would have loved to have the York/Thomas/Wittel battle. That would have been an awesome race between three equal cars. Would have made for some good photos. Guess we will have to wait for the ARRC.

Seth-

Can't remember whether I gave you congratulations at the track. Not a bad way to start out in your new car, eh?

[This message has been edited by Bryan Watts (edited May 14, 2003).]

Bryan,

Thanks man. You did congratulate me after the race. It was a good way to start out in the car. Thank goodness Bimmerworld knows how to build a good car. That was only my second time there and I wasn't expecting those results.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Seth Thomas:
Oh don't worry we weren't cheating. But I would have loved to have the York/Thomas/Wittel battle.

---

Me too. Who built the motor that blew up in the #10 car?


------------------
katman

the car's owner built it along with a shop outside DC. I hope is wasn't as bad as it sounded. brian was bummed.

marshall
the yellow e30 its car

Quote:

---

Originally posted by mlytle:
the car's owner built it along with a shop outside DC. I hope is wasn't as bad as it sounded. brian was bummed.

marshall
the yellow e30 its car

---

Hey Marshall, it was fun pestering you with that Miata I was driving during the ITS/ITA race. BTW don't know if you knew this or not but that #10 car was my old car and I can assure you I had nothing to do with building the motor. I don't exactly know how to do that. It was however born up by DC by CS as you said. It was a great car for me and a killer motor. I was proud as parent could be watching Chet get the pole by over a second in my baby. I think I was happier than he was. : )

Robbie
#60 SM
#19 SM
#10 ITS (retired)

PS....

SETH RULES!!!!!!!!!!!!

doh! i mixed up the cars that blew their engines....i was thinking of brian shipman's car, not your old one...brian's blew in the last lap of sundays race.

and yes, it was fun being pestered by you! each time i thought i had a gap starting i would blow it going down into oak tree and you would be on my bumper again! http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

marshall