So for the guys who have been developing the ITA Neons, how do you feel they stacked up:
- at the beginning of the development
- currently
- potential over the next few years
What are the weak points?
Strengths?
Are the Dodge IT parts any good?
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So for the guys who have been developing the ITA Neons, how do you feel they stacked up:
- at the beginning of the development
- currently
- potential over the next few years
What are the weak points?
Strengths?
Are the Dodge IT parts any good?
Andy,
It has actually been two years. This was the end of my second season in ITA with the Neon.
The strength is in the power. The better engine is the DOHC, but the SCCA has the weight too high.
The weekness is the handling. Being a Mac-Strut suspension, with way too much weight over the front axles, it just doesn't transition very quickly. Watching in-car video of Joe Moser and Kevin Ruck at the ARRC, I was able to see that there cars turn quicker.
Does the car have potential, yes, at bigger tracks where the HP/TQ can work for you.
The Dodge IT parts are great, but they are no longer available. I have made some of the parts such as the Spherical Control Arm Bushings, and made them available to the other people running the cars.
Overall the car is very fun to drive. I don't think the car fits better anywhere else but ITA. I would like to see the weight come down on the DOHC engine cars. Further development on the car isn't likely to make up the 3-4 second difference that I see at most track from my car to the Pole. I have a well prepared car that has always been a front running car even in SSC, It has had much development over the years. The car even won the Run-Offs in 2000.
I'll get down off my soap box know. :)
Chris, weren't you at LRP earlier this year, along with Greg Meindl?
My impressions from running with the Neons a couple of times this year is that there is some SIGNIFICANT potential there. I don't remember which car it was I passed at LRP coming out of the downhill, but I had a pretty decent head of steam down the hill and it took the ENTIRE front straight to get by, so there's no lack of ponies there.
So, now we're on to the suspension. I have no empathy for your Mac-equipped car; that's exactly what this year's ARRC-winning, NARRC-winning, NERCC-winning, and three-track-lap-winning car has (see signature...) It's time for you guys to step up to the plate and develop the suspension. We worked more than a few years on ours, and while it's not optimal, it's good enough (if I had ~$6000 for struts it would be better). If you want assistance on that, I'll be glad to help.
Develop that out and I think you'll have a consistently-winning car. I know you've got the "bump" for it... - GA
Greg,
If it was the white 07 car on the straight then that was me :unsure:
Like I said HP/Tq is not the weak spot on the Neon. There have been many time when I have ran to the front at the start of a race and thought to myself," What are you going to do now stupid."
What kind of weight distribution does the Nissan have?
Dodge has been struggling with this same issue even in WC with the SRT-4. The weight over the front wheels is too great. That is a car with $6000 a corner for Struts. I would love to get some of your insights into the suspension.
First laugh-out-loud quote of the week. :114:Quote:
There have been many time when I have ran to the front at the start of a race and thought to myself," What are you going to do now stupid."
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Great to have you guys at LRP. Looks like there is a double in May - come on back!
Chris, I don't have any scale charts handy, but the NX is something like 60/40 to 64/36 on weight distribution. The suspension geometry on that chassis is terrible; we start hitting rapidly dropping roll centers less than 1" down from stock ride height.
The result is that we run ~1"-1.5" down from stock and tighten up the springs to compensate for the crappy geometry; our springs rates are in the range of 800F/500R, with a KEE-ILLER rear swaybar (http://www.kakashiracing.com/swaybar.html - which, of course, doesn't hurt the F/R weight balance...)
There's basically zero aftermarket support of race-quality suspension parts on this car, so we developed and fabricated our own struts for use with Koni 8611 race inserts (see attached pic). Even so, we had to have Koni revalve them for more compression and rebound control - these struts really woke up the car this year.
We'd love to work with Anze on some Penske-derived struts like GregM is doing, but last time we chatted Angelo was talking ~$1800 per corner; WAY out of budget. The revalved Konis are approaching what we need, anyway.
So, I suggest your development will parallel ours: find the sweet spot compromise in the ride height, which will be higher than you want, and find the spring rates and associated dampers to keep you there. If you need more rear roll stiffness, fabricate a drawbridge for your rear swaybar... - GA
On edit: As for running at LRP, don't let Andy suck you into that spider's web. ;) As you found out LRP is a momentum/handling track; I've not been able to get within 1.5s per lap of his new lap record. Watkins Glen and Pocono are another matter entirely: I broke the existing long-time-Honda track records at The Glen in '06.
Let the mosquito have its way at LRP, and you go beat up on him at The Glen.
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Ouch - OK, come to the Mother's Day Double at Pocono. I need drafting partners!
When I visited out east last August, I did happen buy the Glen for a 2 day Shelby club event. I really enjoyed it and found that my times would have put me up front. As a result I may take another trip to the Glen for a regional race. LRP was a 14 hr tow from Michigan, were as the glen was only about 9 hrs. As we all know there is only so much money we can spend on racing. If I can make it happen it would be great.
As far as the suspension, I agree as far as ride height. I have found similar issue while tuning my ITB Mustang (Also a Mac-Strut car.) The difference in the Mustang is that you can really make huge changes in the car at the rear and it responds. The Neon is Dumb in the rear suspension. With the roll center under the ground there are some funny jacking things going on and I understand that. The Neon has poor geometry even at stock ride height. The Killer Stockcar rear bar is likely to be one of the winter projects. Along with a better airdamn/splitter for the front.
Having raced with Chris, his Neon is indeed quick down the straights, but it gets beat under brakes and quite a bit in the corners. That being said though, remember that Joey and I have a lot of time and development into our cars with a much more optimal suspension design, so I'd expect that making the Neon turn will take at least as long to develop our cars, if not longer. Following pretty much along the lines of what Greg had to do with his car is probably what it'll take. For comparison sake, my car weighs ~2600 lbs and has about a 60/40 weight distribution too, but the suspension design may help handle it better, I don't know.
Do you find the car burning off the tires and slowing down as the race goes on? If so, look at my 2005 races on mylaps. My car was the exact same way. It would be rocket fast on a flyer during qualifying, but one by one the CRX's would march past me during the race (at Mid Ohio). First on lap one to fifth on lap 14 wasn't uncommon. Even with my suspension design, it still took a lot of testing of different springs, sway bars, ride heights, tire pressures, camber settings, and driving styles to make it all work. Now the car's solid as a rock from start to finish, but it didn't happen overnight.
I'd like to see the Neons continue to seriously develop before writting them off as not competitive because as of right now, I have the same feeling about those cars as I did about Greg's egg in 2005: "If he can ever make that car handle even half way good, look out." But of course even then, like every car, it'll still need someone to drive the wheels off of it. ;)
I don't plan on writing the car off by anymeans. Neons have been a very big part of my lively hood for a many years now. In a strange way I owe the car more than it owes me. Being involved with them at the SSC/SSB, T2 and now Spec Neon and ITA level. I can say that many things have been tried, some work, some don't. I really enjoy the car and hope to keep plugging away. I have said it before, the car does go faster evertime I take it out. This means I am moving in the right direction.
Hey Cat Killer I want the keys to your car. Bring that neon to vir in march so we can play.
Kolin
Twist my arm......Quote:
Hey Cat Killer I want the keys to your car. Bring that neon to vir in march so we can play.
Kolin
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Twisting... a couple of us from the Northeast are making noise about being there, too... anyone have a firm date on that event?
Vir is march 17-18, double ecr plus a sprint race, this years turnout was epic for the enduros
with over 100 cars
kolin
OT I know, but I think Joey Moser, Ian Green, and I are all going. :smilie_pokal: We've never done VIR before, so why not?
Kevin,
VIR is awesome. I have done the 13 hr the last two years
Whatever Chris about your 13 hour adventures load up your car and head south come march
You ever driven Sebring, i'm just kidding
Kolin
If it wasn't for the 13hr in 2005 you wouldn't be able to call me the "Cat Killer"
Sebring is still up in the air and it is only 3 weeks away!
I really wanted to do this race but I just told my local region they can have my car on display for some car show that weekend :( . That really sucks, racing on St. Pats day would have been awsome.Quote:
OT I know, but I think Joey Moser, Ian Green, and I are all going. :smilie_pokal: We've never done VIR before, so why not?
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Come on, Scott. What's your car for? Being a racecar, or being a show queen?Quote:
I really wanted to do this race but I just told my local region they can have my car on display for some car show that weekend :( . That really sucks, racing on St. Pats day would have been awsome.
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You're seriously considering towing to Sebring? Are you out of your freaking mind? That's gotta be a 24 hour tow.
I know, I know, but I'm a man of my word.Quote:
Come on, Scott. What's your car for? Being a racecar, or being a show queen?
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I think my car would really like VIR and I would really love to be a part of the GLD freight train. Maybe the Glen in the summer would be better.
Kevin,
I work as crew for some of my Showroom Stock and Touring customers. The Winter National at Sebring will have more cars there than the June Sprints. Usually for something like that I just fly down for the Weekend.
As far as VIR it will depend on my $ situation. I really recomend that you go. There is no track I have seen that is like VIR. Your Acura will due very well there.
I like Scott's idea of the Glen in the Summer as well.
I hope so since it'll need it if both Joe and Greg are there, not to mention local VIR hotshoe, Bowie in his Miata.Quote:
There is no track I have seen that is like VIR. Your Acura will due very well there.
I like Scott's idea of the Glen in the Summer as well.
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Pending how it fits into the schedule with everything else (if it ever gets realeased!), I'm hoping to do the Fun One double at Watkins Glen in September. I'm a former ITC record holder there, but have yet to run the Integra there. I think it'll love that track!
"We'd love to work with Anze on some Penske-derived struts like GregM is doing, but last time we chatted Angelo was talking ~$1800 per corner; WAY out of budget. The revalved Konis are approaching what we need, anyway."
The price you were quoted was for triple adjustable's. I am having Penske single adjustable's built. Hell if single's were good enough to make my T2 Bird in 05' run up front at the Runoff's with Knowle's behind the wheel then they're good enough for me. The also can be converted to double's and beyond at a later date as I have done with the Bird. Then I have to work to develope them.
I also have a new engine that I have to install. The tired ol' SSC motor is what I have been running.
I lost my enthusiasm this winter with the EP to FP not happening.
I am looking forward to backing up the 12 Hour win in a Neon, but that car lost its motor at the end of the season.
Lots of work to do.......................................
Its a damn shame that SCCA took so long to reclassify this car. Now Mopar has discontinued its IT Parts.
Soooo....what's the price range for singles?Quote:
The price you were quoted was for triple adjustable's.[/b]