Classes and race groups for 2008

The race committee will be meeting Jan 3rd to finalize classes and race groups for the 2008 I.T.SPEC*tacular. The goal is to continue to expand, while keeping the classes and race groups to a minimum. The addition of a 6th race group have been discussed LIMITED to 4 formula classes as well as the addition of SSM and AS. The three race format will not change but the races will be shorter. We are looking at :

Saturday Morning 20 minutes qualifying
Saturday Afternoon 20 lap / 35 minute race (Which ever comes first) Fastest lap sets grid for Sunday morn.

Sunday Morning 13 lap / 20 minute qualifying race ( WECF) finishing position sets grid for Sunday afternoon
Sunday Afternoon 20 lap / 35 minute race ( WECF)

Medals for the top three finishers ( per class) in the two 20 lap races. Overall trophies ( per class) for accumulated points awarded in all three races.

Group 1.... ITB, ITS
Group 2.... ITA, IT7, ITC
Group 3..... SRF
Group 4.... SM, SSM
Group 5.... ITR, ITE, TCC, AS
Group 6..... FF, CFF ( East-West Challenge Series) tentative: CF, CFC (Great Lakes Challenge Series)

We hope that the race lengths will be just right after reading the feedback from several forums around the WWW. Input is always welcome.

Todd Cholmondeley
Cincinnati Race Chairman

Saturday Morning 20 minutes qualifying
Saturday Afternoon 20 lap / 35 minute race (Which ever comes first) Fastest lap sets grid for Sunday morn.

Sunday Morning 13 lap / 20 minute qualifying race ( WECF) finishing position sets grid for Sunday afternoon
Sunday Afternoon 20 lap / 35 minute race ( WECF)


Group 5.... ITR, ITE, TCC, AS



:( This sucks.

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Saturday Morning 20 minutes qualifying
Saturday Afternoon 20 lap / 35 minute race (Which ever comes first) Fastest lap sets grid for Sunday morn.

Sunday Morning 13 lap / 20 minute qualifying race ( WECF) finishing position sets grid for Sunday afternoon
Sunday Afternoon 20 lap / 35 minute race ( WECF)
Group 5.... ITR, ITE, TCC, AS



:( This sucks.
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Um, Dan....What sucks? The length of races? Group 5? the make up of group 5?

I'm not sure that was exactly what Todd was looking for for feed back............. ;)

If possible -- splitting the tin top groups with the Formula and SRFs is fun so we can watch the other IT groups. :eclipsee_steering:

Todd,

I have to ask? Is it a $ thing that is causing an increase in groups along with AS cars? Selfishly, I would rather keep it to IT cars, but I do understand that Mid-O costs big bucks for the weekend.

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Um, Dan....What sucks? The length of races? Group 5? the make up of group 5?

I'm not sure that was exactly what Todd was looking for for feed back............. ;) [/b]

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The make up of the group. I've raced with the TCC at Nelson Ledges and AS at Nelson's, Summit Point & Mid O. They for the most part just get in my way (except for the leaders). :(

Dan, just to do some blue sky thinking/brainstorming, would you prefer to be in group 1?
(Based on the supposition the the Region needs to get entry counts up there to survive. I could be wrong on that, of course.)

I expect you will see some of the MARRS drivers in 2008. Last year the race conflicted with one of our series races, but that's not the case this time. I know some of the ITB racers including myself are planning to go.

It is odd that at the "IT Festival" the SRF's get their own race but all the IT classes are doubled up.

Charlie

My opinion is please don't turn this in the direction the ARRC has. IT cars have started to play "second fiddle" at that event, and I know I'm not the only one who feels that way. The IT cars have been crammed into fewer and fewer groups with less and less track time. Yet new classes have been continually added, which typically had their own places to go and play when it came to a championship event anyway. Have the IT entries fallen at the ARRC? Yea, probably. But I imagine that change of focus has certainly helped in doing so.

IIRC, last years numbers for this event where great. Better than expected, I believe. The second year will be even better, even without adding more classes. More prestige, credibility, and (eventually) tradition is what needs to be built upon in order to continue developing it as a championship caliber event for IT & Spec classes. That was the original intent, was it not? IT*SPECtacular. If we add in CFC, FC, FF, CFF, & AS, we're about Prod and GT away from being any old regional.

I know that it's all about paying the bills at the end of the weekend, and that just boils down to number of entries. I guess that means add more classes to some people. But with the success of last year and the potential for growth this year within the classes already in it, we should at least give it a shot as it is. In the discussion after that '07 event, I can't say I recall hearing "We need to add more national classes & run groups. That way we can cut my track time and jumble me up with more out of class cars."

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Dan, just to do some blue sky thinking/brainstorming, would you prefer to be in group 1?
(Based on the supposition the the Region needs to get entry counts up there to survive. I could be wrong on that, of course.) [/b]

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In reality Jake, group 1 would be better. I'm not so sure everyone would agree. I suspect that there are not going to be a large group of ITR cars. I ran lap times close the the ITS leaders when I was in ITS, so I'm hoping that I'll be able to stay ahead of them or at least I have enough experience to keep from screwing up their race. :D If I'm running with ITB you know I've lost 3 clylinders. ;) It's a matter of mind set with the ITR drivers. If your fast then you don't have to worry about the ITS/ ITB racers, if your not up to speed, keep the hell out of their way and let them race.

Mind you I'll race in what ever group is necessary but group 5 would be my bet to have the most body damage because having to muscle through the big vetts and those heavy A Sedans. To get by these cars will need some 11/ 10th's driving. Trust me on this, I am writing from experience.

Dan, that's the reason i suggested that, as i know the Corvettes are, like any class really, a mixed bunch with talent at all levels. But it seemed to me at the ARRCs that when they were mixed with other classes, the other classes couln't run the lap times they were capable of, due to the old 'slow in the corners fast down the straights' problem.

Ideally, I agree with those who would prefer the event stay focused, and I also agree that enties from IT drivers will increase. I'd bet you see a 25% or 33% gain in IT drivers over last year.

Todd, would that be enough to satisfy the organizers?

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If we add in CFC, FC, FF, CFF, & AS, we're about Prod and GT away from being any old regional.
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Back at the GLDIV roundtable in November there was a lot of open wheel guys grumbling about the "new" restricted regionals occuring in the Division, and the Cincy event in particular. The "build it and we will come" promise was being thrown around a lot by them, I believe maybe the Cincy folks are listening or feel pressure from them.
I can understand the viewpoint, but like others I don't agree with it. As the Indy restricted regional during our National race weekend in July will be IT only, I had some of the grumbling pointed at me as well.

As far as ASedan being added, if you have to, I guess match them up with the ITE and TCC guys. Move ITR out and run them with ITS.

I didn't want anyone to feel betrayed or blindsided by the information I provided. Nothing is set in stone and the input your providing is greatly appreciated.

1. Point taken on SRF. The class is on the bubble and It will be a major point of discussion at the Committee meeting Jan 3rd.

2. ITR, ITE, TCC, AS: Three big unknowns made the suggestion of adding AS a reality. ITR car count. 0 in 2007, whether TCC will put us on their schedule again for 2008? And the need to better advertise ITE , 3 cars in 2007. So to get some stability AS was suggested as a group that has strong regional level activity and may help boost the group if things stay static in 2008.

3. Formula cars : Tough question, I will answer the best that I can. Our region has a strong contingent of Formula car drivers. The I.T. SPEC*tacular ( though successful) was a break even venture in 2007. Many regions in the division are going with ( I assume) I.T./SM based restricted regionals to help support their Nationals in 2008. Many people seeing a major shift away from formula racing in the club.

Add all that together and it equals ........ Compromise to add one race group of formula cars.

4. Another championship caliber event similar but not the ARRC. Plus we are still actually 20 + classes and an additional 2 race groups away from being a plain old double regional.

Keep the input coming. :D
Todd

I understand the formula guys being cranky so maybe you drop SRF and try formula. Remember two huge series nearby, Marrs and Narrc, had conflicts last year and this year don’t. That should generate more entries from IT and SM for that matter.
ITR guys should give you a commitment before you take them seriously. I might add them to ITA. The would be less likely to screw up an A race than a S race.

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4. Plus we are still actually 20 + classes and an additional 2 race groups away from being a plain old double regional.
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So that'd be what, another 25 cars? :cavallo:

I'd be careful about throwing in the ITR guys with our (ITS/ITB) group... in addition to the opportunity to mess with ITS races... I'd be concerned about possible closing speeds to the back of the ITB pack! I've raced in such groups outside of SCCA, and you REALLY gotta be on your toes...

On another thought, breakeven on a first year for a totally new event doesn't sound too bad to me!

...just my $0.02...

I will offer two points.

1. The ARRC is an elite event. You can make a case that its the true club racing championships with the money required to compete at the runoffs. With the eroding participation at the runoffs, you can also make a case that the ARRC is overtaking the runoffs as the premier event for the season.

If this IT-Spectacular rises to the level of the ARRC, it will be a special event.

2. The Mustang/Camaro/Pony car market is in a huge growth curve in track participation and club racing, but in the SCCA its falling apart.

Finding a way to take advantage of that growth in the SCCA is critical for the SCCA going forward.

AS is added to this event in an attempt to attract mustangs to race mustangs and so forth. Making sure that NASA American Iron cars are legal to run in ITE is a basic to get the growth hoped for.

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So that'd be what, another 25 cars? :cavallo:

I'd be careful about throwing in the ITR guys with our (ITS/ITB) group... in addition to the opportunity to mess with ITS races... I'd be concerned about possible closing speeds to the back of the ITB pack! I've raced in such groups outside of SCCA, and you REALLY gotta be on your toes...

On another thought, breakeven on a first year for a totally new event doesn't sound too bad to me!

...just my $0.02...
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You should be on your toes regardless. I ran my Cobra R in a SARRC race at VIR in October. It was only my second time at VIR and I was running laps around 2:20. Tony Ave, national GT1 champion, was there turning laps in the 1:50 range.

I ran the enduro at the ARRC this year with some of you guys and were on the other end of that scenario. Though I bet we were not running 50mph faster on the straights.

I think the thread here is to really focus on the IT cars. Spec Miata and SRF too. Let it live up to it's name. You have a great location and a great date that large series are scheduling around (NARRC for sure this year).

The reputation of the event is already excellent. Don't 'jump the shark' too soon.

I know personally of 10 drivers from New England who didn't go last year who have this event cemented into the schedule.

I think that by adding additional non-IT, non-spec classes the marketing of this event will be diluted. A large part of what makes this event stand out from the herd is that it IS aimed at the IT guys. If you start to allow other classes in that do not fall into the regional-only guidelines, it seems to me that you might as well just make this into a regular double regional, like it was pre-2007. If that's the way Cincy region wants to go, fine, but I don't think you'll continue to see the guys making the long trips out of division to make this particular event. I think the region needs to make a stand on how this event will be marketed, and then stick with it. If the formula doesn't pull in enough entries in the future, it can always be changed later, but I think that messing with the core values of this event at this time would be a mistake

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2. The Mustang/Camaro/Pony car market is in a huge growth curve in track participation and club racing, but in the SCCA its falling apart.[/b]

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Hopefully we'll get the Mustang and others in ITR where they belong. That should help.

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I think the region needs to make a stand on how this event will be marketed, and then stick with it. If the formula doesn't pull in enough entries in the future, it can always be changed later, but I think that messing with the core values of this event at this time would be a mistake.[/b]

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Well said.

You guys were very successful last year with the event especially with it being its first year and the other conflicts in schedules. For 2008 (and I did the same last year), I put this event ahead of the ARRC. If you want this event focused on the IT & SM (heck, SRF still fits into the SPEC bill), don't change things much otherwise expect some of us less local IT / Spec people to move it down a bit on our "must race" list.

In your meeting, could you also bring up the idea of using split starts for the races? At Mid Ohio, I found it more challenging to pass a car that had higher HP but a slower overall car than many other tracks I've raced at. This causes more forced passes (I know I did one and had contact with an ITS car in lap one).

two cents time

Like many here that have previously posted, I think that you should give it at least this year (2008) before doing any "serious tweaking" to the format.

One of the the major reasons that I attended last year was due to the fact that we regional-only racers don't have a venue (other than the AARC) to compete against other racers from other regions. Lord knows that I get all the competition that I can handle from other ITB'ers in the Northeast, but to be able to race on other tracks with new competitors/friends is a large part of the enjoyment that I derive from the SCCA. The fact that you made the event focused on IT racers brought out a good number of good racers (exactly what those of us who attended were hoping for)........and this with zero inter-divisional planning prior to the event. THIS year, it's obvious that the race scheduling guru's have left your weekend open, and I bet you will see at least a 30 to 40 % increase in the same race groups that you had last year. Those numbers should make for a great bunch of races, and should put some money in the region's pockets when all is said and done.

So, long and short of it, I wouldn't make any major changes until after this year. This will be the first year that you won't have any major scheduling conflicts with other regions, and THAT will be key in determining whether your current formula is correct, or needs "serious tweaking".

Thanks for listening.

Tim Mullen

I know of 2 guys that want to make it to the IT Fest that didn't make it last year. It's just a matter of one of them overcoming the cost of a new car first ;)

Most businesses loss money the first 3 years. Don't freak on breaking even on your first year. That's amazing and I know quite a few people that will make it a priority this year or next.

first of all, don't try to read too much into what me or (i think) most are saying.

we appreciate your efforts and that you are asking for feedback and ideas.

it is easy for us to say "hey you did not lose money last year, etc...." but your region has significant responsibilities to your local club members and we understand.

but how soon can you open up registration for this event?

that will tell the tale pretty quick. although i do not like committing funds early for an event (NASA Nationals comes to mind!), i would not mind putting down a $25 or so paypal commitment as of tonight to indicate that i am serious about having this on my schedule.

my priorities for 2008 are:

IT Festival
ARRC
$2008 GRM Challenge
HP National race(s)
West Michigan Honda Meet

but the chronological order is:

HP race
HP race
WMHM
IT Fest.
$2008 GRM
ARRC

so there are two races and a track day prior to the IT Festival that could put the car in jeopardy and cause me to miss the race and you to lose an entry fee.

but opening up registration sooner rather than later will give you an indication of how many are coming. especially if you could register and pay some down and pay the rest later.

and if we in the IT community are wanting to grow this race/event, we need to consider the potential price/revenue impact of having it as a restricted regional and ask if we are willing to increase entry fees 5 or 10% to make it happen.

and if we accept a share of the risk, we might expect to a share of the revenue. for instance, increase fees 5% from a nominal $300 to $315 and then if the region gets X entries over the break-even point, the $15 is refunded.

there may be more than one way to skin this cat and i am trying to get the cat out of the box on this one.

tom, who is glad he has on his SFI <strike>certified</strike> labeled driver&#39;s suit

Tom,

Entry fees can only be collected once the sanction number is issued. Usually that happens around the end of May. BTW, your the exception in that most drivers don&#39;t want to jinx their ride by putting the money in early and then having to scratch due to a mishap.

Tim,

Thanks for the 2 cents. Its greatly appreciated.


Todd

I think the ARRCs don&#39;t submit the request for funding until the event, I think.

Perhaps, to guage iinterest, you should have a poll? Heck, I&#39;ll do it for you. Od course, this isn&#39;t the only avenue into the IT racers brain, but, you might get a good idea compared to last year.

One good point is that if you open it up to other classes, changing it in the future would be difficult. (kind of like the IT rules :D ) I think....no, I KNOW that there will be many more IT cars this year.

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In your meeting, could you also bring up the idea of using split starts for the races? At Mid Ohio, I found it more challenging to pass a car that had higher HP but a slower overall car than many other tracks I&#39;ve raced at. This causes more forced passes (I know I did one and had contact with an ITS car in lap one).
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I absolutely loved the event... I know that my father wants to bring his ITS car out next year and we also want to bring back the Audi&#39;s (with fresh motors) but it will be up to the finances when the time comes... Our rig is a bit expnsive to get out to Ohio :(

As for the split starts, I would like to see it in the supps that you will have them. I know that I have said it plenty of times before, but it will be a deciding factor if the finances are tight but doable. I did not enjoy the first 5 laps of the races because of the backmarker ITS cars, it was just about the worst racing I have ever had to deal with.

One other thing that I would ladd the most value (IMO) and would ove to see (I am sure others would also like) is two or three 10 minute hardship sessions on Sunday morning. All cars, all classes lumped together, simply to test repairs from saturdays enduring race!!!

Other than that the only thing I can suggest is keeping everything the same. Despite the one issue of split starts it was one of my favorite events in the past 8 years!!!

Raymond "No more :birra: , time to save up the mula :023: !!!" Blethen

Please dont make any significant changes just yet. I&#39;m thinking you&#39;ll see a nice rise in entries this year, and if things go like last year that will continue.

ITR simply has to prove its going to bring the numbers before it can be given any special consideration. I agree with sticking it in the big bore group for now, and if cars start showing up maybe make some moves in the future.

Formula Cars? I dunno. It&#39;d kinda suck to change the format to add a group for them and then have 10 total entries show up.

I know I was unable to make it last year and this year I will be going. I think you really need to see what this year brings before you make too many changes.

Split starts are a great idea. Allows things to spread out a bit before the fast cars in the "slow" class catch the slow cars in the "fast" class.

I sat in Madness last year and watched the ITB front runners trying to deal with a particularly poor handling ITS car and it was pretty painful to watch. That one driver was pretty much single handedly screwing up the ITB race.
They all eventually got by him, but he DID effect the race. Unfortunately many people aren&#39;t as aware and considerate as they should be out there.
Thats just sort of a fact of life, so formatting the races to minimize the effect of those folks is always a good thing in my opinion.

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I sat in Madness last year and watched the ITB front runners trying to deal with a particularly poor handling ITS car and it was pretty painful to watch. [/b]

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It was pretty ugly.

(Scott, you need to fix your signature......)

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Group 4.... SM, SSM

Todd Cholmondeley
Cincinnati Race Chairman
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Todd, smack those SM guys around too, they should be overfilling that race group! :D

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Todd, smack those SM guys around too, they should be overfilling that race group! :D
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I don&#39;t think its going to be a problem. :eclipsee_steering:

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ITR simply has to prove its going to bring the numbers before it can be given any special consideration. I agree with sticking it in the big bore group for now, and if cars start showing up maybe make some moves in the future.
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I think the ITE cars should run with ITB. B)

First of all, thanks for all of your work to put on this event!! Last year was a blast :)

Second, leave out the Formula Cars! IMO, they are not all that much fun to spectate, they don&#39;t really intermingle with the IT car guys, and they do not even fit the concept of the event.

If you need more entries, the American Sedan (AS) sound good... they are basically higher horsepower IT cars! They are enjoyable to watch, for the most part, and would fit in naturally with TCC, ITR, ITE (i.e. NO extra run group). Also, SRF seems to fit the "SPEC" part of the concept, so there doesn&#39;t seem to be any issue there, of course only in my opinion...

We&#39;ll be back with (2) ITA cars for next year!