Folks,
Do you believe ITA CRX is still competitive in ITA? Considering the flavors of Miata, the Integra's, etc? How long do you believe it will stay be ocmpetitive, assuming no massive overdogs are classed?
thanks,
Marcus
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Folks,
Do you believe ITA CRX is still competitive in ITA? Considering the flavors of Miata, the Integra's, etc? How long do you believe it will stay be ocmpetitive, assuming no massive overdogs are classed?
thanks,
Marcus
The CRX is still quite competitive, and I think it has more potential than you think. Granted it has a few shortfalls (one being the very short wheelbase which will make it a win or die driving experience when pushed to the very edge).
But if you look at the statistics, a WELL PREPARED CRX is still winning races and resetting track records. But you do have to take the time and money to prepare it well. There are a few advantages to the Integra, one of them is that a deciently prepped one will get to the front 1/3 of the field easily, making the driver feel he is king of the hill, unfortunatly as most experienced drivers know that staying at the front and gaining those precious 2 tenths takes a lot of extra effort.
Fortunatly the CRX will get those extra 2 tenths with a less money and just more driver skill and taking the time to tune the suspension to the improved driving style.
As long as the cars are kept legal (and we all know who's Integra's NOT) the battle for the front of the pack is still up for grabs.
Tom
In a word...Not like they used to be! Wait, that's 6 words...well, you get my drift. If you want a world beater for the class, build a 1.8 Miata. That's where the advantage is headed...for now. <_<
Thanks guys.
I was jsut curios, sine lots of thme seem to be popping up for sale at what seem like very inexpensive prices. (in expensive as compared to the $$ I had in my ITA Rx-7 I just sold) To give a frame of reference, I sold it becuase in my mind, its not competitive.
Am I going to buy a CRX to find myself in that situation nesxt year? The answer to me is a scary yes, looking at the teg and anticpating the Miata results.
Tom - I have no idea whose Integra is not legal... would be curious though.
Marcus, wishing ITB/ITC were popular on the west coast.
I urge you to try and put one together and take on the world. I have a long way to go to catch the Amy NX and the Serra Teg's.Quote:
In a word...Not like they used to be! Wait, that's 6 words...well, you get my drift. If you want a world beater for the class, build a 1.8 Miata. That's where the advantage is headed...for now. <_< [/b]
It ain't as easy as you think - but be my guest!!!!
ITA is simply the best class going right now. Lot's of legitimate podium contenders.
I am guessing that Tom is talking about a Teg here on the East coast.....mmm...like the NORTH east coast, that blows up more than it finishes. If I'm right, this driver has put more oil/flames/antifreeze and gear oil on the track than the EPA should allow.Quote:
Tom - I have no idea whose Integra is not legal... would be curious though.
[/b]
When the car hangs together, he's a rocket down the straights, passing fast ITS cars, and most ITA cars like they are standing still.
But, hey, I could be thinking of someone else.
Why hasn't he been protested you ask? beats me...maybe because his car is always blowing up, and it's equipment level is a forever moving target.
(But if somebody is willing to take the plunge, I think I know a little about the Protest procedure by now, LOL)
Heck, I'm racing in ITB but still willing to thow in some money for the protest! The whole "people take this too seriously, it's just club racing" but I still justify cheating crap is so annoying.
The CRX...I'd still consider it if moving to ITA - which I'm not moving back anytime soon unless Jake and the BOD have other plans. :rolleyes: Yes, the weight hurt the CRX but it was getting tiresome to watch the spec CRX/Integra class, I mean ITA, the way it was.
I'd love to jump in a well-built, well-tuned CRX!
"Why hasn't he been protested you ask? beats me...maybe because his car is always blowing up, and it's equipment level is a forever moving target"
That's easy, lets see!...over a grand in costs, blatently illegal car, and the result is a "Shame on You Bad Boy Bad! now gimmie that trophy back" result.
"I'd love to jump in a well-built, well-tuned CRX!" Too bad Dave mine is now running around in the hands of the Poison Arrow Frog guys, (with a better paint scheme), but if you want to buy one of the ones for sale now, I can get you the go fast parts real easy.
For those that don't know, or can't read between the lines, thats the voice of a guy frustrated with the system.Quote:
That's easy, lets see!...over a grand in costs, blatently illegal car, and the result is a "Shame on You Bad Boy Bad! now gimmie that trophy back" result.
[/b]
Tom was involved in a protest that alledged that a CRX was running , basically, a high comp cheater motor. I was one of the protesters as well as 3 other ITA guys. Long story short, (see "A protest story" on this site for the looooong version) the tech staff failed to handle the protest in a proper manner. Kathy Barnes became involved late in the going, and it is my opinion that her involvement adjusted the course of the protest. (for the better) In the end, the pistons were confirmed as high compression units, and the car was deemed illegal. The travesty of it was that this same car, in this same configuration, set lap records and won trophies previous to that protest, but the Protest Steward in charge never saw fit to ask any questions regarding the history of the engine. So the penalty was as low as you can get....the minmum points and a DQ for that event.
Those of us that have witnessed other protests have seen penaties 5 times stiffer for non performance items.
So Tom is understandably angered over the result.
(I should add that it is my opinion that the "Top brass" got wind of this situation, and was rather upset, but I have no official word on that, or any details.)
Bottom line is that justice barely got done in a clearly flagrant situation, and several racers had their faith in the system damaged.
Back on topic........it is my opinion that rumours of the CRXs demise are greatly exagerated!
Yes, they are still quite competitive, IMHO. But, I think we'll see them maybe be a little more "track specific" now compared to how they use to be. For example, last weekend I was at Grattan, a very tight and twisty track, and got outqualified by a CRX both days. The car was formally owned by someone else and was one of the top cars in the CenDiv - actually one of two car/driver combinations I've never beat in the CenDiv, ever. Now it's in the hands of another driver who also use to drive a CRX for years, but an underprepared one. Now he has moved into this faster, top notch CRX and was really, really fast at Grattan. I mean, my Integra is handleing pretty damn good right now, but I still couldn't keep up with that CRX with the tight esses there. He actually got down to within a couple tenths of the track record - not bad for a first outing in a car that had 100 more lbs bolted to the floor.
I've also noticed the huge amount of really nice ITA CRX's for sale at dirt cheap prices. I know what this CRX sold for and for what it has and can do, it was an absolute steal! Yet I see former ARRC podium finishing CRX's going for $7-9K and Integra's that haven't going for $13-15K. I mean, I still find the CRX vs. Integra or any other ITA car debateable, but the market sure isn't showing it!
I think its very competitive if well driven and well prepared. In MARRS the front runners where a huge mix of cars, 1.6 Miata, Integra, CRX, 240SX. All great drivers and the only time one of them was missing from the top 5 was when they overdrove a corner. I didnt get to spectate M1 since I was finally driving, but from the result sheets the front was tighter together then last year.
I certainly hope the CRX is still competitive... I plan to put mine back together (see wreck story in New England Region forum) It has been disappointing to see some of the newer cars in the ITA class coming on so strong, but I also know alot of $$ have been spent to make them fast.
I run at NHIS in NH and can battle with some of the Integras. The CRX can hold its own down the straight, but suffers a bit in a slow uphill section. I find the car a blast to drive with great brakes and good handling. Now if I could only do a street-rod swap and put an Integra engine in it. <_<
Why would I want to do that? Well, I suppose having a more competitive car in a class I can't afford might be a reason, but that won't happen any time soon. I only said that the CRX' would not be as competitive as they once were. You recall when they were unbeatable? That's changed, now it's the Integra, but you Miata guys won't let that stay for long. Then there will be complaints, whining, etc. and the process will continue. Who knows what's coming to the class...924's?Quote:
I urge you to try and put one together and take on the world.
[/b]
Quote:
Why would I want to do that? Well, I suppose having a more competitive car in a class I can't afford might be a reason, but that won't happen any time soon. I only said that the CRX' would not be as competitive as they once were. You recall when they were unbeatable? That's changed, now it's the Integra, but you Miata guys won't let that stay for long. Then there will be complaints, whining, etc. and the process will continue. Who knows what's coming to the class...924's?
[/b]
I guess we need to come to an agreement on the term, "competitive".
Competitive is NOT dominating.
Dominating is NOT the model that may win the most. That might be the more popular car. In the early 90s, people called the RX-7 "dominating"...but a well prepped RX-3 never lost to an RX-7 ....
An overdog is a car that is classed in such a way as to have an inherent physical advantage that, when raced against other equally well preppped and well driven cars, is unbeatable.
Competitive is, to me, a car that can win against the best, on certain tracks. Not necessairily ANY track, or every track.
Defined that way, I think the CRX is certainly competitive, and ITA has nothing that is, at this point, a clear and obvious overdog.
At this point I think that the models in ITA that are "competitive" are:
CRX
Integra
Nissan 240SX
Nissan NX2000
Sentra SER
Miata
Saturn
I'm sure i missed one as well.
Unproven, but solid "Good chance" cars include the:
Neon
BMW 325e
and probably some other Honda product!
and maybe the GTI?
That's quite a list to choose from! One thing is for sure, the ARRC could be pretty interesting this year. I can think of an example of each car in the first group that has the talent and build quality to make the trip to Atlanta wothwhile.
Jake,Quote:
I guess we need to come to an agreement on the term, "competitive".
a well prepped RX-3 never lost to an RX-7 ....
Competitive is, to me, a car that can win against the best, on certain tracks. Not necessairily ANY track, or every track.
Defined that way, I think the CRX is certainly competitive, and ITA has nothing that is, at this point, a clear and obvious overdog.
At this point I think that the models in ITA that are "competitive" are:
CRX
Integra
Nissan 240SX
Nissan NX2000
Sentra SER
Miata
Saturn
I'm sure i missed one as well.
Unproven, but solid "Good chance" cars include the:
Neon
BMW 325e
and probably some other Honda product!
and maybe the GTI?
That's quite a list to choose from! [/b]
.... I can't believe that you turned your back on your own car. I am running ITA this year just to prove to you ( and everyone else ) that a 1st gen RX7 can be competitive (as you said"on certain tracks not every track"). I guess I need to wait until they put my 97 Miata in ITA then maybe I will have a chance. But until then I'll do my best with what I've got.....LOL
... FYI ... My First three wins were against the ITA Champion ,Stan Hinds, Driving an RX3
... And don't be surprised when the 1.8 Miata takes over ITA. The writing is on the wall............. I'm ready.
... Just standing up for my car and myself ...
... Rick Thompson
Well, I've been driving an ITA CRX all year, and I'll say this...
Its still fast.
But that 110lbs is taking its toll in other places. Our formerly dead nuts reliable chassis is now a brake, hub and halfshaft eating monster, and we aren't the only ones. Other folks in the divsion are also struggling with front end reliability.
As a result, we've punted on the ECR series. The car is just too brutal on front end parts now to try to do longer races. We're now just looking at SARRC and ProIT races.
Very unfortunate indeed, but continually replacing front end parts is not in the budget and we're having a hard time even finishing the long races.
My opinion (and remember that I wasn't against the weight addition when the news first broke) is now that the adjustment went too far. The percentage of weight added vs. the total weight of the chassis is larger than any other car's adjustment (I think, but I'm admittedly bad at math) and its going to prove to be too much in my opinion. The car is still capable of burning some fast laps, but it can't do it in a sustaned manner anymore. The problem is that a Miata (both flavors), RX7 and an Integra can.
My suggestion, after 1/2 a season in a 2250lb CRX (that started the season with all new front end parts BTW), is for the ITAC to revisit the addition and consider dropping the weight to 2200lbs.
I'm afraid if some sort of compromise isn't made, we'll see these very good and formerly hot dog cars start to disappear.
That would be extremely unfortunate, and is not what the ITAC or the comp board wants.
We need balance, but not at the expense of obsoleting a popular chassis.
If you do the math, a 60lb addition as opposed to 110 more closely matches what other chassis got percentage-wise in "The Great Adjustment of 2006."
JMVHO
What every other car 'got' has nothing to do with it. The fact it got the 'most' percentage-wise, just means it was the furthest 'off' pre-correction.Quote:
If you do the math, a 60lb addition as opposed to 110 more closely matches what other chassis got percentage-wise in "The Great Adjustment of 2006."
JMVHO
[/b]
People are selling them because they aren't overdogs anymore. Now you have to actually race - oh no!
110lbs turns the car from perfect to a parts eating monster? Hmmmm...
Remember, these were not comp adjustments. They were just run through the process like everything else. The CRX SHOULD be a car that is track dependent - it's small and nimble. Others will have strengths elsewhere.
You boys better keep developing - Greg Amy is coming to Atlanta with a real sharp knife.
AB
Agreed, but not in everyone's dictionary. In a perfect world, we desire to compete on an even field with everyone having a chance to win. In reality, we want to kick everybody's butt! That's when most feel they are competitive. Not necessarily correct, but still human nature. Most don't build a particular car to be simply competitive, but to dominate, if possible. We all won't to win as often as we can. Even that Schumaker guy has to have a helluva car to win. The best of drivers can't do it with a simply competitive car all the time.Quote:
I guess we need to come to an agreement on the term, "competitive".
Competitive is NOT dominating.
[/b]
Seriously - A is where it's at.Quote:
... and maybe the GTI? ...[/b]
If the 2.0 16v GTI weren't as rare as hen's teeth, I'd have built one the instant they got moved to ITA. Since I got de-NERDified, I've harbored thoughts of just building a Frankenstein damn-the-VIN version out of the older, straight, rust-free $300 no-sunroof shell I see sitting whenever I go to my favorite Asian lunch joint, and the drivetrain from a crapped out, freebie '91 Passat. The "big" bumpers are the hardest part of the recipe.
Just let some NERD protest me. I know Greg won't but...
K
Kirk,
I don't think anyone would really file a protest on a VIN number. Would they? I mean dang, this is racing, this is a race car, that VIN number stuff is rooted in IT days long gone with tags title etc. Build the car just like a GTI, be done with it. Looks like a duck, smells like a duck, etc. Heck, stamp your own VIN on a plate if you need to. Lord knows that was done with some 260zs to 240s back in the day, I know - I own 1/2 of one that ran like that in the past.
Ron
Well, good! That means the best drivers are winning.........Quote:
Agreed, but not in everyone's dictionary. In a perfect world, we desire to compete on an even field with everyone having a chance to win. In reality, we want to kick everybody's butt! That's when most feel they are competitive. Not necessarily correct, but still human nature. Most don't build a particular car to be simply competitive, but to dominate, if possible. We all won't to win as often as we can. Even that Schumaker guy has to have a helluva car to win. The best of drivers can't do it with a simply competitive car all the time.
[/b]
last I checked, that was the goal.
Rick! Hows the rebuild coming!? The pictures looked pretty invasive! If anyone can do that, it's you.Quote:
Jake,
.... I can't believe that you turned your back on your own car. I am running ITA this year just to prove to you ( and everyone else ) that a 1st gen RX7 can be competitive (as you said"on certain tracks not every track"). I guess I need to wait until they put my 97 Miata in ITA then maybe I will have a chance. But until then I'll do my best with what I've got.....LOL
... FYI ... My First three wins were against the ITA Champion ,Stan Hinds, Driving an RX3
... And don't be surprised when the 1.8 Miata takes over ITA. The writing is on the wall............. I'm ready.
... Just standing up for my car and myself ...
... Rick Thompson
[/b]
Yup.I left the RX-7 out of it. I figured I'd just pass on it as i own one. My post was more of a 10,000 foot view.
I have no doubts you'll win a few more.
Your wins against Stan...how'd you do it? In the braking? ;)
Pssssssssssst.Quote:
Seriously - A is where it's at.
If the 2.0 16v GTI weren't as rare as hen's teeth, I'd have built one the instant they got moved to ITA. Since I got de-NERDified, I've harbored thoughts of just building a Frankenstein damn-the-VIN version out of the older, straight, rust-free $300 no-sunroof shell I see sitting whenever I go to my favorite Asian lunch joint, and the drivetrain from a crapped out, freebie '91 Passat. The "big" bumpers are the hardest part of the recipe.
Just let some NERD protest me. I know Greg won't but...
K
[/b]
plasma cutter.......
Tig welder
grinder...
Didn't hear it from me.
;)
Psssst! Impound! Protest commitee?Quote:
Well, good! That means the best drivers are winning.........
last I checked, that was the goal.
I thought the original question concerned whether or not the car was competitive, not the driver.
Pssssssssssst.
plasma cutter.......
Tig welder
grinder...
Didn't hear it from me.
;)
[/b]
Psst...Knestis...looks like the secrets out...better not do that, LOL....;)
Here's my definition of competitive based upon my experience driving a spec muffler class Yahama Kart:
Competitive is when you're not spit out the back when the green flag drops, and you're not lap traffic for your class after five laps. Given this definition there are lots of Spec Miata that aren't competitive in their own class. I found I needed a new Kart chassis and to blueprint my motor to not get left behind, my best finish was a 2nd place because I drove a smart race and didn't get collected.
James
I don't care about "dominating" anything.Quote:
What every other car 'got' has nothing to do with it. The fact it got the 'most' percentage-wise, just means it was the furthest 'off' pre-correction.
People are selling them because they aren't overdogs anymore. Now you have to actually race - oh no!
110lbs turns the car from perfect to a parts eating monster? Hmmmm...
Remember, these were not comp adjustments. They were just run through the process like everything else. The CRX SHOULD be a car that is track dependent - it's small and nimble. Others will have strengths elsewhere.
You boys better keep developing - Greg Amy is coming to Atlanta with a real sharp knife.
AB
[/b]
What I do care about is a car that keeps tearing up brand new parts.
Yes Andy, 110lbs does qualify as a shit ton of weight on a 2140lb FWD "grocery getter." It has significantly handicapped the car, not in speed, but in reliability.
I don't really think that was the goal of the addition. I hope I'm correct about that.
And I'm very familiar with Mr. Amy and his sharp knife. He is my pick to win the ARRC this year as the VanSteenburg Miatae are rarely spotted at Road Atlanta.
That said, Thats not even what I'm talking about here.
Please understand that I'm not talking about speed or competitiveness or winning the ARRC. What I'm talking about is a formerly spot-on reliable car that is now systematically killing components that it has not historically killed nearly as quickly.
Out of 4 races, we've had ONE race that we finished without a complete failure or a major repair. Yes, these are 1.5 hour races, but CRXs have been doing these races for years in the SE without these issues.
Now (maybe coincidentally???), hubs, bearings, CV Joints, and brake components are being terminated with extreme predjudice and not on just one car. Earlier this year at VIR if you had a supply of CRX hubs and bearings you could name your price. I'm not kidding.
I know its easy to poo poo this and say "Oh, 110lbs isn't wreaking THAT much havoc." And honestly, if I wasn't in the middle of the havoc I might say the same thing.
But we keep breaking parts, NEW parts, and we keep looking around and seeing other guys breaking parts. I just can't bring myself to buy that its all a coincidence.
Again... The car isn't any slower. I can turn just as fast a lap at 2250 that I could at 2140.
I just can't manage to finish the race at 2250.
Meanwhile, Bowies Miata with something like 30 races on the motor just keeps on going like the energizer bunny. He readily admits that his "beat a CRX" strategy is now to just pressure it a bit and wait for the front end to burn to the ground. So far its worked for him flawlessly.
Again, and I can't stress this enough... This isn't about speed.
If Christian decides to bail out and sell his CRX it won't be about competitiveness or because he got spanked by Greg Amy, it'll be because he's tired of replacing front end components after EVERY weekend.
Thats how my Integra GSR used to be, and its why I sold the damned thing.
I'm just trying to provide information for you guys. I don't own an ITA CRX and don't plan to buy one. I likely won't be driving the one I'm currently driving after this year.
In short, I have no dog in this hunt.
I just truly believe that the CRX adjustment needs to be revisited because its not accomplishing what you guys in the ITAC intended for it to accomplish, and in the long term that is going to hurt ITA, not help it.
We've scratched the ECR series and the ARRC enduro off our schedule. At this point, based on what we've seen so far, we don't see the point in even trying to do those races.
Scott, I'd have to ask what kind of suspension components you guys are running. I only ask because in my first year with my Integra, I was going through axles like water. At the time my car was around 2570lbs and had a relatively "soft" suspension on it. It just came down to the fact that the front end was too soft to handle the weight and cornering loads, was rolling over a ton, and was pushing the axles beyond their design capabilities. I ended up having to throw springs and bars at it in effort to just make it finish races. Once that happened, I had to make it actually handle. Kind of ass backwards, I know, but it happened. Now its about 2605lbs after races, handles freaking great, and runs like a top! :023:
I don't know if comparing an Integra to a CRX is right in this instance, but I know that the suspension designs are almost identical. I do not know if the Integra's hubs are beefier though, maybe explaining why I never had a problem there.
Don't know what to tell you. What do you think the CRB was trying to 'accomplish' with the correction? NOTHING to do with performance or longevity that is for sure. Just getting everyones weights in line with the classification/reclassification process. Simple.
As far as your issue? Some cars make great enduro cars, some make great sprint cars. Bowie's Miata and the CRX may be opposites. One makes a great Sprint car in ITA (CRX) and one makes a great enduro car in ITA (Miata).
Choose your weapon. Bowie did knowing that he didn't have an ARRC winning platform - but for long races, he could be the man.
AB
Catch:
I am not sure what life expectency you demand out of your parts (assuming your using OEM or second line), but the 100+ lbs of weight are not going to start breaking hubs etc. Since except for the 88 CRX Si body most of the cars weren't at minimum weight anyway. And the boxier and heavier Civic uses the same components.
I have run multiple enduros and sprints in a variety of CRX's and we do not have that kind of component failure with my heat treated hubs and rotors.
Perhaps if you keep track of the parts use hours you might have less failures.
Tom
Let's see...if it weighs so much that the darned thing snaps in to several pieces, then I guess the only other way slow it down is an SIR! <_<
Uncle.
Thats all I can say at this point.
Its an OPM set up car, with the same components and suspension setup they've used for years with no issues. Now we're having issues. Apparently thats now acceptable.
As far as tracking usage hours... We aren't getting enough to worry about it.
Lets see...
Front bearing (OE Honda) hours... About 3.
Raxles half shaft (very good reputation)... 1.5 weekends
OE Honda lower ball joints... 2 weekends
Cobalt brake pads and Brembo Rotors... Forget about tracking hours, we're going through those so fast we just need to plan on starting every weekend on new ones (CRXs didn't used to be that way).
As far as weights Tom, the Civic used to weigh 35lbs more, no big deal in the greater scheme. And I know several drivers in 89-91 CRXs that were already running a little ballast at the old weight. So yeah... Adding 110lbs has actually added 110lbs in most cases. It did in our car (an '89 BTW).
But whatever. Forget I ever said anything and we'll see how this sorts out in the long run.
Scott,
You certainly are getting beat up here, and I know that you are just saying what is happening to you in the real world. It’s just to those of us on the sidelines it does not seem to make sense that that amount of weight would make that big a difference.
I guess if I was in you shoes I would be looking for legal way to move weight toward the rear.
Well Dick, the point I'm trying to make is that I see an issue on the horizon. As I mentioned, I don't even own a CRX, so my input here is not self serving. I don't expect any potential change would occur before the end of this year, and its unlikely I'll be driving this car after '06, so there's not really anything for me to personally gain unless a free ITA CRX ride unexpectedly falls in my lap at some future time (and we all know how often THAT happens).
And as I also stated before, I'm not sure I would buy it either if I was on the outside looking in. But its not just our car, other CRXs are seeming to have issues they didn't really used to have.
Just coincidence?
Maybe, but at this point I'm willing to stick my neck out and say I don't think so. I could look stoopid later, but it wouldn't be the first time.
The mechanism is there to review changes that are made. I'm simply suggesting that this is one that needs to be looked at.
So lets talk in the hypothetical. If an addition of enough weight to “level the field” makes racing a car difficult, impossible, unsafe ECT. What should be done? Now as you said, we have not reached that end with the CRX conclusively. But what happens when we get to that point. Do we take the weight off and let a car be an overdog? Do we move them up a class? Do we add a restrictor? Do we just say sorry you picked the wrong car?
Seems to me like the response is usually the last one...even when unspoken.
Well, I honestly don't think we're anywhere near that point... Yet.
Remember that this whole thing is still very new, so I'd honestly be quite surprised if the next few years don't see a bunch of changes. And I'm OK with that.
I think the guys on the ITAC are doing a fantastic job, but to think that they'd go from zero methodology of classing cars to getting it perfectly correct the first time would be kind of a stretch.
As many folks know, I'm one of a group of folks that isn't totally happy with the current speccing method because it doesn't take FWD into account. And very few people will argue the view that weight hurts FWD cars more than RWD cars, and that penalty gets worse as the cars get faster in ITS and ITA (and ITR?).
We've already discussed the idea of a break for FWD ITS cars in other threads around here, and last I heard that discussion is on the ITAC agenda. Maybe that same discussion needs to take place with ITA in mind, just a little less of a break?
As far as the CRX being an "overdog," I have some thoughts about that...
1. A CRX has won the ARRC only what? Once? in the past 5 years. That doesn't sound very overdoggy to me.
2. Remember that not only did the CRX get 110lbs, but some other cars like the RX7 lost weight. So even if you feel the CRX was an overdog before, taking weight back off of it now doesn't take things back to pre-05 status due to other changes.
3. Was the CRX really an overdog or was it a case of everyone building them because a few guys did really well with them early? Sort of like what has been happening with the Integra lately. I seem to remember that a guy that thought outside the ITA box and put a full effort into a 240sx did pretty well, but I never really heard it called an "overdog."
You cant legitimately put the "E36 Label" on the CRX because it never produced dyno numbers well and truly above the rest of the class. The CRX can't put any more to the wheels (legally) than a good 1.6 miata and it does less than a 12a RX7. The BMW simply laid waste to every other car in the class on the dyno.
So that "overdog" label is apples to oranges.
Honestly, if nothing ever changes and the venerable CRX falls by the ITA wayside its no skin off my ass. But I really don't think thats good for the class in the long run, and thats why I'm bringing this up now.
:birra:
Well, let's blow up some misconceptions. Drivetrain layout IS taken into account in every class in terms of weight. What is being looked at in ITS is ADDITIONAL 'compensation' for FWD. It seems as if when you get to higher weight and higher HP levels, what is working in the other classes is marginalized in ITS.
So the net/net is that the car is just as fast as it ever was but it just goes through parts faster?
The 'overdog' comments you here are (respectfully) from guys whose cars where crushed by the inclusion of the CRX way-back-when. No issues, just a stinger.
What are you saying when you say "Just coincidence? Maybe, but at this point I'm willing to stick my neck out and say I don't think so. I could look stoopid later, but it wouldn't be the first time."
And to even state that the CRX could 'fall by the wayside' is bogus. If it can still run at the front of ITA but just may not be the best enduro car sure doesn't spell it's death.
It looks like the only restrictor has been put on us Hondacura drivers wallets. We can still go almost as fast as before, we just need to spend more money to do it...new tires every race, new axles more often and obviously more brakes more often. The Honda product is the most popular ITA ride for a reason...good aftermarket and development. It took years to get these cars right just so they can be slowed. Why hasn't the RX7 been reeled in some? Other than the aforementioned Beemer, I dont know of any other regular at the front (the occasional one off Merc does but how many of them are there?)...leaving no room for other cars to compete.
I'm saying exactly what I'm saying (which is pretty much the status quo with me). What I'm seeing is CRXs having reliability issues and not doing all that well out on track. I'm also seeing numbers down. I'm also seeing people trying to sell former championship cars and nobody wanting them. I'm also seeing RX7s pass me on straights (and I'm in a car with a brand new ballz-out OPM motor). In short, I'm seeing a bunch of negatives and not really any positives in terms of where the CRX stands in ITA today.Quote:
What are you saying when you say "Just coincidence? Maybe, but at this point I'm willing to stick my neck out and say I don't think so. I could look stoopid later, but it wouldn't be the first time."
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When I add all these things up, it doesn't look good for the CRX to me.
But... I could be totally wrong.
Somebody could show up at the ARRC this year and whip everyone in a CRX.
Someone *could* do that... But my bet is that (depending on everyone with top non-CRX cars showing up) there won't be a CRX in the top 3, maybe even the top 5 this year.
Maybe I should start "Spec CRX?"
What the hell... It worked for the "uncompetitive in ITA" Miata. Right?
Thats my point Andy.Quote:
Well, let's blow up some misconceptions. Drivetrain layout IS taken into account in every class in terms of weight. What is being looked at in ITS is ADDITIONAL 'compensation' for FWD. It seems as if when you get to higher weight and higher HP levels, what is working in the other classes is marginalized in ITS.
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How do you KNOW its "working" in other classes?
We just started this whole thing this year. We don't "know" that the system is working in other classes. Not yet.
Andy, you and I both agree that FWD cars just can't seem to cut it at current specs in ITS, so further "compensation" is being considered.
Well, maybe it will bear out that the same applies to ITA, just to a lesser degree. Say (and I'm just whipping numbers out of my arse) something like ITS FWD cars get a 100lb break and ITA FWD cars get a 50lb break.
I honestly think its too early to make that call, but its something that needs to be considered and planned for.
I think most of us will agree that if you take an ITA CRX and a ITA Miata and add 100lbs to both of them, you just penalized the CRX significantly more.
Nope, you're completely wrong. Stop all this "the CRX is going thru parts talk"... how do you think I'm gonna be able to sell the car next year if everyone finds out it like to eat parts for breakfast, lunch , and dinner?Quote:
I think most of us will agree that if you take an ITA CRX and a ITA Miata and add 100lbs to both of them, you just penalized the CRX significantly more.
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Seriously though, the CRX is a great chassis with a really good engine and suspension but at the current weight it's all taking a toll on the front end. I know not every car is going to be good at everything adn I'm ok with that but the weight adjustment means that I'm not going to be running the car in Summer ECR's anymore b/c the front end just can't take the weight and abuse. Will I still race tha car? Of Course I will. Will I think about switching to something RWD down the road? Probably... :unsure:
Christian
Scott and Christian,
When did the weight addition go into effect and how much weight did you have to add?