Actual rules??

I see that the CFR rep has asked to clear up some areas that have been "abused". Good.

The first, is taking out the power steering pump and hooking the hoses together. Who doesnt do this?? To change the VW to a non power rack, you have to find the long steering shaft to coinside with the rack.
The second, is backing up the power up switches with additional switches, bypassing the relays. Who doesnt do this?? I can not see any reason to depend on a 20yr old relay and system, to see me through a race weekend. I double switch all of the main power systems.
Is this legal??
My last rule question.Fuel... Now with 10 % alcohol, how and why, do they do the fuel test?? Does 100LL, av gas, pass the fuel test?
Mike Ogren

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Originally Posted by Flyinglizard

I see that the CFR rep has asked to clear up some areas that have been "abused". Good.

The first, is taking out the power steering pump and hooking the hoses together. Who doesnt do this?? To change the VW to a non power rack, you have to find the long steering shaft to coinside with the rack.

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So, you're saying it's COMMON for people to remove a required part? The rules are clear on this one, love 'em or hate 'em. :shrug:

I guess I need to know each model better. I hope you're wrong.

Mike, I asked this question about power steering on another forum, and was slapped down quickly. It seemed a no-brainer to me,, however,
it seems I was wrong
IF I am paddocked next to another Neon, his normal car came with Air and manual steering, my ACR came without air, and has power steering.

He can remove the A/C, in part or in whole.

But I cannot remove the P/S Pump and close the lines.:shrug:

It was explained to me that in the above situation, I could substitute an entire manual steering package.
I dont know about VW's, but would seem to be the same.

Good Luck, from your Turkey Trot customer, [dont worry, we will not go to Impound!!!]:smilie_pokal:
CM

If all cars on the same spec line came with power steering as standard equipment, then you must run the entire as-installed power steering system.

However, if *any* car on teh same spec line came with a manual rack, you can convert the powered car to the manual rack system.

Regardless, you *cannot* simply disable a power steering rack and call it "manual".

I don't understand what you're asking on the power/switch/relay system.

...and to complete the logic circle, NONE of the US-model MkIII Golfs came without power steering. I've searched high and low.

Who doesn't do those things?

People who aren't cheating.

K

EDIT - ...and there's NO reason to "clear up" anything. The rules are blindingly clear on those - and pretty much all - points, unless someone wants them to be otherwise.

Please click one of the Quick Reply icons in the posts above to activate Quick Reply.

Just to mess with with those who think the IT rule on power steering sucks try this on for size. With a Spec Miata which has more limited rules than the IT rules the power steering may pump may be removed & the lines may be connected. BUT because the power steering pump is removed the Spec Miata is now illegal to run in the IT class.

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Originally Posted by ddewhurst

Just to mess with with those who think the IT rule on power steering sucks try this on for size. With a Spec Miata which has more limited rules than the IT rules the power steering may pump may be removed & the lines may be connected. BUT because the power steering pump is removed the Spec Miata is now illegal to run in the IT class.

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Actually, this isn't quite correct. You CAN remove the PS in any IT Miata, as long as you update/backdate to the manual steering rack that was an option on any of the IT-spec line Miatae.

So it's not the removal of the PS that is illegal, its the leaving the power rack in - instead of going with the manual rack that is legal to backdate to.

I am pretty sure I described this correctly, and it applies to all cars...should a version on the spec line have come with a MR>

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Originally Posted by Flyinglizard

The first, is taking out the power steering pump and hooking the hoses together. Who doesnt do this??

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<hand raised>

I went out and researched what options came on my car and switched to a manual rack.......

You are allowed to backdate within your spec line. For example if a late modle car did not come with manual rack then you cannot put a manual rack from an older spec line.

***BUT because the power steering pump is removed the Spec Miata is now illegal to run in the IT class.***

Andy, do you agree that a Spec Miata with the power steering pump removed & with the power steering rack & pinion the car is illegal to run in IT? Thank you.

So is a Prod car, or a SS car............

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Originally Posted by ddewhurst

***BUT because the power steering pump is removed the Spec Miata is now illegal to run in the IT class.***

Andy, do you agree that a Spec Miata with the power steering pump removed & with the power steering rack & pinion the car is illegal to run in IT? Thank you.

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I do David. I just wanted to be clear to the poster that the ACTION of removing the PS on a Miata was not illegal, just the RESULT IF you didn't UD/BD to the manual rack. The way your original post read, it was the ACTION that was wrong, not the result...independent in this case with a legal UD/BD.

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Originally Posted by JLawton

<hand raised>

I went out and researched what options came on my car and switched to a manual rack.......

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In a Saturn? Must check spec line...

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Originally Posted by JLawton

<hand raised>

I went out and researched what options came on my car and switched to a manual rack.......

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+1

Mine never came without a powered rack, so I've still got the pump and hoses installed. The hp loss is minimal and I keep the steering feel that BMW is known for, it's a little stiffer because of the smaller Momo wheel though.

James

Sorry for the odd reply earlier - my Blackberry does not play nice with highlighting buttons on web pages, and I have not had a decent internet connection until today this week.

Re power steering - most don't do what you describe. If you are talking about a Golf 2, run the non power rack. If you are talking about a Golf 3 I have heard some say there is a legal manual rack, but never saw the supporting data myself.

I don't understand what you are asking about switches. I have additional manual switches in my car so I can turn off the ign or fuel directly, but still use the oem key switch and wiring to operate. Honestly never gave that much thought to the stuff.

I expect/hope that the fuel situation will change. It does not prevent what it tries to prevent - exotic/toxic fuels - but it has been reported to fail straight pump gas. You can get your fuel tested at the track to be sure.

Just got done reading the 2008 GCR again, and there is no clarification on whether or not you can or cannot modify the power steering it IT. Under intent, there is no longer any reference to refering to SS, and in the general rules the only items dicussed concerning steering is steering wheel locks shall be diabled in all classes except SS & Touring(9.3.41), prohibition of wood rim steering wheels (9.3.42), and that the suspension and steering shall be of suitable design and in good working order and that four wheel steering is prohibited (9.3.43).

Looking at the spec line for the car I race, a 1995 Neon, there's nothing in the spec line specifying power or manual steering.

On the wiring, other than a master cutoff switch, the way I read it, it's pretty clear:
"9.1.3, section 8 Body / Structure, item h.- All chassis / structural / electrical repair, if performed, shall be in concourrence with factory procedures, specifications, and dimansions. Unless specifically authorized by the manufactuer for repair or allowed by the rules, no reinforcement, i.e., seam welding, material addition, etc., is permitted."

Unless there's something I missed, steering isn't clear, but omission doesn't mean power steering mods is legal, while extra switches would be outside the rules.

IMO, who cares on the steering. There's not enough gain to hassle anyone about it. Further, IT is supposed to be an "affordable" so if someone can loop their steering lines and don't want power steering, go for it. To force someone to retrofit a manual rack is adding cost and goes against the intent of the rules.

The wiring issue, keeping it factory keeps it simple to police and actually keeps cost down.

Dave, no clarification is necessary. If it doesn't say you can, then you can't, and it doesn't say you can.

If you have a Neon with power steering and you want to disable the power assist, the only LEGAL way to do it is to convert your car to a manual steering version, since that too was available from the factory.

BTW, though this has nothing to do with the rule, and I know nothing about Neons: most power-steering racks have a quicker ratio than their manual counterparts in the same car. So there very well might be an advantage to having a power rack over a manual one.

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Originally Posted by mtownneon

...there's nothing in the spec line specifying power or manual steering...but omission doesn't mean power steering mods is legal...

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Actually, omission means the mods is SPECIFICALLY ILLEGAL. See GCR 9.1.3.D, "Modifications shall not be made unless authorized herein."

In more simple terms, "if it doesn't say you CAN, then you CANNOT".

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IMO, who cares on the steering. There's not enough gain to hassle anyone about it.

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You mean, besides the fact it's illegal and clearly contrary to the rules?

My car's about 20 pounds lighter than required; since it's not enough gain to hassle anyone, is it OK for me to run 20 pounds light? What about if my compression is 0.8 higher than stock; is that not enough to hassle anyone about? Maybe my port-matching job is 1/4" too deep into the head; is that OK, too?

Rules is rules. When you break 'em you're a cheater. The level of how far past the rules you go doesn't change the fact that you're a cheater.

:shrug:

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Originally Posted by mtownneon

IMO, who cares on the steering. There's not enough gain to hassle anyone about it. Further, IT is supposed to be an "affordable" so if someone can loop their steering lines and don't want power steering, go for it. To force someone to retrofit a manual rack is adding cost and goes against the intent of the rules.

.

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2-3% Hp isn't enough of a gain? Have you put your Neon on a Dyno and checked it with or without the P/S? Sorry but comments like that burn me up! And yes I know what kind of gain it is on a Neon! And I still run power steering.

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Originally Posted by mtownneon

J...There's not enough gain to hassle anyone about it. Further, IT is supposed to be an "affordable" so if someone can loop their steering lines and don't want power steering, go for it. To force someone to retrofit a manual rack is adding cost and goes against the intent of the rules.

The wiring issue, keeping it factory keeps it simple to police and actually keeps cost down.

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If you had played the "safety" card too, then you'd have covered the three favorite rationale. How about, "taking the fluid out of the power steering system prevents dangerous slick stuff from leaking on the track!"...??

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...To force someone to retrofit a manual rack is adding cost and is following the rules...

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K

GREG, yes, "Rules is Rules" but in some things, a little "LALL" might be in order.
I have been head and shoulders into many race IT cars, and I have seen Cool Shirt Switch
Transponder Switch
Helmet Blower Switch
Elec. Radiator Fan Switch
Camera Switch
Data System Switch
And, when the only way to disable or remove the steering wheel locking system is to remove the key switch in it's entirety, I see off/on switch, and starter buttons/switch.

But, if "rules is rules" it dont say you can add a switch.:shrug:

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Originally Posted by wcmcarlos

But, if "rules is rules" it dont say you can add a switch.:shrug:

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Ah, ok, I'm with you. I musta missed the rule where it says that if you add a switch for allowed accessories you can disable your power steering system.

My bad.

If you can add a [whatever] then you can add all of the parts necessary to install your [whatever] unless it performs an otherwise prohibited function.

That said, I guess I've never dug into the GCR to make sure that we are allowed to add driver cooling and radios...

K

Remember that the there are rules that allow freedom with the Ignition, fuel pump and instrumentation that allow most of the critical wiring to be bypassed.

By the way anyone who wires his transponder to any switch other than the kill switch is asking for trouble.

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Originally Posted by Greg Amy

Ah, ok, I'm with you. I musta missed the rule where it says that if you add a switch for allowed accessories you can disable your power steering system.

My bad.

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Maybe it's the same rule that allows us to replace the power steering pulley with anything, including air:rolleyes: Which is no excuse for replacing the rest of the system with air.

Seriously thought, the one that gets me is not being allowed bolting things to the floor board, like cool suit coolers and fire system bottles, only weight is allowed to be bolted to the floor.

James

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Originally Posted by Knestis

If you can add a [whatever] then you can add all of the parts necessary to install your [whatever] unless it performs an otherwise prohibited function.

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or as Geo used to say... 'if it says you can, you bloody well can'

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Originally Posted by Knestis

That said, I guess I've never dug into the GCR to make sure that we are allowed to add driver cooling and radios...

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Here ya go Kirk
9.3.14. COOL SUITS
Cool suits are allowed in all classes. Water tank mounts shall be of a safe and secure design.
9.1.3.8.j
Audio systems may be removed in their entirety.Two-way radios are permitted.

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Originally Posted by mom'sZ

or as Geo used to say... 'if it says you can, you bloody well can'

Here ya go Kirk
9.3.14. COOL SUITS
Cool suits are allowed in all classes. Water tank mounts shall be of a safe and secure design.
9.1.3.8.j
Audio systems may be removed in their entirety.Two-way radios are permitted.

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Where does it say it's allowed to mount it to the floor?? Actually, it's prohibited in 9.1.3.9.l.3 Holes may be drillled in the (sic) floorpan for the purposes of mounting ballast (only).....

The (only) prevents drilling holes and mounting anything to the floor pan, even things we're allowed like radio's, cool suits, data acquisition, and fire systems. So every car with anything mounted to the floor other than weight isn't legal.

I'd propose we get rid of the only, and allow authorized accessory be allowed to be bolted to the floor
James

This is the second time I have gone through this P/S mess.
I never would have removed my P/S, as it does make steering much too hard for my old upper body.
But WOW I never kicked over a hornets nest without paying a price either.
No hard feelings, interesting thread.
I knew the answers before I posted, as I said in my earlier post.
If someone will rent me an IT car next summer, I will race with you Guys at New Hampsire.
If not, I'll just have to work the grid.
Carlos

James: so far I've managed to bolt everything to stock mounting holes such as the seat mounts for passenger seat and center console mounts. I wouldn't be opposed to such a rule change and see no ill effects, rules creep or possiblitly for 'intorturation' but I haven't thought about it much yet although some verbage for allowable accesories only or something should probably be included.... write a letter.