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The ECR rules were just released, and they don't include ITR in the allowed class list. It is further confirmed by the run groups scheduled at Moroso this weekend, and Rockingham next month. The same appears to be true for the Carolina Cup (though I haven't seen their rules). It is disappointing to have this new class, and not be able to run in it. We had planned to run this season unrestricted...
Grafton, I agree, that makes no sense. Who runs the ECR series? Is it just an oversight? I can't believe they intended to leave ITR out.
Apparently the ECR Committee was concerned about the size and speed of the new ITR cars and have decided to see how they perform before considering them for the series. No, I am NOT a member of that committee. No idea why CCPS won't let ITR run.
The Pro-IT Committee originally wanted to exclude ITR from that series as well, but it was overridden by Atlanta Region Board of Directors (of which I AM a part).
Apparently you guys haven't done a very good job of educating the old-timers regarding ITR - there seems to be this fear of 3000# cars running five seconds a lap faster than any existing IT car. I'm thinking the fastest ITR cars will be 2 seconds a lap faster than the fastest ITS cars and most will be mid-pack, but I certainly could be wrong.
I know it's difficult to believe, but there are those in SCCA that resist change just because it's something different. :blink:
Butch Kummer
Wow, this is shocking to me.
An ITR BMW 325 is essentially what "was" an ITS 325 two years ago. What is there to be afraid of?
Who do we write to on the ECR committee?
http://sedivracing.org/ECR/07ECRRules.pdf
Scroll to the bottom for the names of the ECR Administrator and Committee.
Thanks Butch.
Jezz, Butch, do you work or are you just looking at this and other racing forums all day? Every time I see some post I might be able to help with you're already on top of it.
It's either that or you get email notification on any new post. :rolleyes:
Tom, it true - I have no life other than racing, and with the weather we've got out there today (which is nothing to the Yankees that frequent the board) it's too cold & damp under the shadetree to work on the car today. :lol:
Actually, I was waiting on a job to run and decided to see what's happening in the real world. Right place at the right time, plus it gives me a chance to whine about a pet peeve of mine (people against change just because it's different). It's amazing the number of experienced SCCA people that seem to truly believe that ITR will be the death knell of Club Racing as we know it today! It's not like we're letting those godawful stock car drivers with the noisy. smelly, out-of-control V8's run in ECR, for God's sake. Now that WOULD be the sign of the apocolypse! :blink:
I'll go delete my post(s) and you can respond if you want.
Butch
Are you guys serious about the perception of ITR in the "old school" SCCA circles?
I know I am knew, but as one of the guys who got ITR up and running, I see it as absolutely necessary. We needed, badly, to class newer cars in IT.
What is the fear here? At least for a couple of seasons, I don't think you will see many ITR cars going even as fast as the top S cars.
Sometimes, the SCCA scares me.
When I ran ITB, we had A-sedans in the same ECR group at Daytona. <edit> I believe the old ITD cars were in that same group as well. </edit> Now that's speed differential. As Jeff pointed out, most of the first ITR cars will be 2004 season ITS BMW 325's, except 85 lbs. lighter. According to the ITAC, that car will be competitive. We're not talking warp speed here.Quote:
Apparently the ECR Committee was concerned about the size and speed of the new ITR cars and have decided to see how they perform before considering them for the series.[/b]
The SRF's are allowed though, which makes a lot less sense because they're top speed is slower, but they brake and corner much better than most any IT car. Not to mention they are so low you might not see one driving right next to you.
It is also worth noting that the run group is exactly the same, but includes ITR, for the SARRC race at Rockingham.
Let me see if I can be tactful here (and not become a version of MattBerg):Quote:
Are you guys serious about the perception of ITR in the "old school" SCCA circles?
I know I am knew, but as one of the guys who got ITR up and running, I see it as absolutely necessary. We needed, badly, to class newer cars in IT.
What is the fear here? At least for a couple of seasons, I don't think you will see many ITR cars going even as fast as the top S cars.
Sometimes, the SCCA scares me.
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Yes. Look at the names on the ECR Committee (definitely "old school") and provide another explanation on why ITR is not part of the series. I was equally amazed when the Pro-IT Committee wanted to leave ITR out, but I think they were lumping ITR in with the ITO (ITE in the rest of the country) cars that I wanted to add to the series. I gave in on ITO, but was successful in overcoming their objections to ITR. I have no such influence over the ECR rules.
I am not knew <sic> here (just giving you crap, Jeff ;)), but I agree that ITR needs to happen. And if ITO takes off like I believe it will, I'll push to include it as a SARRC class eventually.
I also agree the differential between ITR & ITS will be much the same as ITS & ITA today, which means the fast ITS guys will be bitching about the mid-pack ITR guys holding them up. At least that will help deafen the whining from the fast ITA guys about the mid-pack ITS'ers. :rolleyes:
Me, too.
Butch Kummer
While we have not had this problem locally, there does seem to be some who are afraid of ITR's performance. I heard that a prominent official in another division said that cars should not go that fast without fuel cells. Of course most of the fires I have seen were a result of poorly installed fuel cells rather than late model DOT fuel tanks and plumbing.
I'd suspect the ITR being a new class it will be up to the Region to support them for a while.
Will the ITR class be faster then ITE? ITE is still 'new' and I know for a fact they are very fast. Times under 2:10s at VIR full course and speeds in excess of 150mph on the straights.
I'm all about new classes, but always check to see if you'll actually be able to run the races you wish before you build for one. Sprint races in very fast cars are like drag racing to me and it's fun once in a while...but put me in a slower car for an enduro anyday!
Matt Douglas
You guys really need to contact your local governing bodies. Since the ECR and Carolina Cup series are both 'restricted regional' events, they can include or exclude whoever they want. It's your job to make a case for inclusion. I, for one, would think this is a no-brainer but....
Case in point. Look at the 2004 GCR for the E36 325. The only difference in the ITR version and that version is 85lbs of minimum weight. All the cars in the class have a target power to weight ratio in IT prep built around this car. So in THEORY, no car should significantly faster than a cars from 2004 + development and new tire technologies.
Each of these groups out to look at the REASON this class was born...demand. How are participation levels since the 325's got stupid restrictor plates? How about all the potential crossover from Honda Challenge? Ask them to look at the forrest through the trees and understand that these cars will all meet GCR safety requirments, hav proper cages and really be just a couple seconds faster than ITS...and no where near a top ITE car.
If the unrestricted 325's are supposed to be an example of the speed potential of ITR, what's the big deal? I've run the slowest class car (sometimes the slowest car, but let's not go there) on the track with the BMW's, etc., and have no problem. Active use of the mirrors and a point go a long way in safety. They come up on me like bullets, go by like rockets, and disappear like vapor, but always with a waive of thanks. If given the choice, I'd rather race with a cluster of ITR and ITS cars any day than a group of Spec Racers. Now those guys are freakin' dangerous!!!
More to it than it seems on the surface Andy. We have had 104 cars in the enduro at VIR and similar numbers close to max track numbers elsewhere. I think they should be included but some are afraid of the extra cars.Quote:
You guys really need to contact your local governing bodies. Since the ECR and Carolina Cup series are both 'restricted regional' events, they can include or exclude whoever they want. It's your job to make a case for inclusion. I, for one, would think this is a no-brainer but....
Case in point. Look at the 2004 GCR for the E36 325. The only difference in the ITR version and that version is 85lbs of minimum weight. All the cars in the class have a target power to weight ratio in IT prep built around this car. So in THEORY, no car should significantly faster than a cars from 2004 + development and new tire technologies.
Each of these groups out to look at the REASON this class was born...demand. How are participation levels since the 325's got stupid restrictor plates? How about all the potential crossover from Honda Challenge? Ask them to look at the forrest through the trees and understand that these cars will all meet GCR safety requirments, hav proper cages and really be just a couple seconds faster than ITS...and no where near a top ITE car.
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Steve is really just afraid some mid pack ITR guy ( like me maybe ) is going to hold his rotary rocket ship up in the ECR's, don't be a trophy hog Steve ! :DQuote:
More to it than it seems on the surface Andy. We have had 104 cars in the enduro at VIR and similar numbers close to max track numbers elsewhere. I think they should be included but some are afraid of the extra cars.
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ROTFLMAO. They don,t let me play ECR much, but I might see you in a SM. :026: I will write a letter to the ECR series and speak with the CCR board about inclusion at our events. ECR may not want to give points but we might be able to get you included. I will do all I can to not give an ITR a overall winthis year. :eclipsee_steering:Quote:
Steve is really just afraid some mid pack ITR guy ( like me maybe ) is going to hold his rotary rocket ship up in the ECR's, don't be a trophy hog Steve ! :D
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My completely politically incorrect response:
What a crock
Complete BS
Bozos.
Feel free to quote me.
;)
Calculations show that when the fast guys get them developed, you're looking at about 2 seconds a lap faster than ITS at the average track.
Well I must say you guys have a great series going (and some great tracks) if you are overflowing your enduros. Congrats.
Having said that, there are many ways to approach oversubsciption issues. If IT cars are included, ITR should be as well. Heck, if you can enter them legally in ITE, it makes no sense to not allow the real class.
Truth be told some on the ECR board may have no clue the new class exists. They might even read this message board and get their heads out of their tails and fix the problem--who knows.Quote:
Well I must say you guys have a great series going (and some great tracks) if you are overflowing your enduros. Congrats.
Having said that, there are many ways to approach oversubsciption issues. If IT cars are included, ITR should be as well. Heck, if you can enter them legally in ITE, it makes no sense to not allow the real class.
[/b]
Seriously, if any class needs out of the ECR it is the damn SRFs. Every other car is production based sedans/coupes, adn then we have those little zipper zappers with tennis balls on antennaes so we can see them. If there is a class that is dangerous to the ECR, it is SRF.
I've got no dog in the fight because (a) ain't no way the TR8 is running 3 hours and (B) don't have an R car, but I am shocked by this response to ITR. To me, it is just a natural progression of IT classing. Don't see why there is all the angst over this.
It is quite sad to see this sort of reaction to ITR. IT needs ITR very badly, there is no doubt about that. What we don't need though is people in the decision making capacity that we have now that seem out of touch with what is going on. I have a feeling someone hit close to the truth when they stated the folks that made the decision probably doesn't know anything about ITR. Clearly not, if they think it'll be 5 seconds faster than the front runners in S.
And what if it was? Big deal, not different than Chet in the Orange BMW (and others) at VIR running 2:12s 2:13s - clearly at least more than 5s faster than the mid-pack of S at that time in history. Wasn't dangerous then, why now?
R
With respect to the powers that be, we all need to remember this is a 'invite only' endurance series. There are financial factors that have to be taken into account. Dropping SRF may make for the best racing but it may thin the field too much. I am sure it can be made to work without SRF but we do need to understand there may be some other factors in play. The sheer qty of SRF's generate big money.
I hope that Regions also understand that these IT classes have no other place to play other than Regionals and restricted Regionals. SRF would have 3 venues: the ECR, the SARRC and Nationals while ITR had only 1. Make it 2 and 2 and it's fair! Having said that, you could say the same thing about SM... :)
True on SRFs and revenue 17 out of 62 cars at VIR in October were SRFs. ITR certainly could not make up the difference.
If I remember correctly they dropped ITC for a while because of lack of cars. Might want to contact the board with people who would actually run an ITR and let them know there is enough interest. Could go a long way towards getting it added.
Steve,Quote:
If I remember correctly they dropped ITC for a while because of lack of cars. Might want to contact the board with people who would actually run an ITR and let them know there is enough interest. Could go a long way towards getting it added. [/b]
Do you think they will allow ITR @ VIR in your May event? I'd really like to try and make that one if at all possible. Hopefully there won't be any major weather around like last year. LOL, just my luck they won't allow ITR.
Dan
Dan, the May event is a Double SARRC -- two spring races only. No ECR enduro. ITR is IN for all SARRC races this year. So you are good.
I can't wait! I feel the need for speed :eclipsee_steering:Quote:
Dan, the May event is a Double SARRC -- two spring races only. No ECR enduro. ITR is IN for all SARRC races this year. So you are good. [/b]
I have just learned that inclusion in the ECR is done by REQUEST. It doesn't happen automatically when a class inside a category is added. ITC is still part of the ECR, they go by the same 2.5 cars per event average as Nationals.
If you want ITR as part of the ECR, and you drive one - or intend to drive one, write an e-mail to the ECR committee.
Andy,Quote:
If you want ITR as part of the ECR, and you drive one - or intend to drive one, write an e-mail to the ECR committee.
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....Thank you for the information. I have emailed my request to [email protected] and hope that others will do the same.
....My BMW Z3 is almost ready.
Important to note that SRFs are only included in the "North" ECRs. No SRFs at any of the Florida track ECRs and the racing is much better. If I remember correctly the ECR rules specifcally state the SRF is an optional class.Quote:
True on SRFs and revenue 17 out of 62 cars at VIR in October were SRFs. ITR certainly could not make up the difference.
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I'd happily trade SRFs for ITRs as the SRFs have cost me $4K in repair, a new car and surgery to put pins in a broken hand the past couple of years when grouped with them (both in SARRC races). I've only had one issue ever with a faster (ITS) car that after I put aside my ego, I was able to admit was my fault not the faster car.
Of course there is no reason to have one or the other. There are only two ECRs a year that even get close to track limit (Sept. Sebring & Oct. VIR). Plenty of room for everyone. I'll be happy to send an email in support of adding ITR if it will help.
Gary Jenkins
2006 SM ECR Champion
Gary,Quote:
I'll be happy to send an email in support of adding ITR if it will help.
Gary Jenkins
2006 SM ECR Champion
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.... Of course if I don't run ITR I could always give you a run for your money in SM ....lol B)
ITR is about 2-3 sec faster than ITS at the front of the spear, ohboy, another short time drafting partner :D then away he went - been racing against ITS cars in ECR Series for past 5 years, fun, just have a LARGE panaramic rear view mirror and mirrors on both doors!! Still managed to win ECR Series championshio in ITC for the past 3 years. So I say let them race.
John Fine
2004, 2005 & 2006 ITC ECR Champion
:eclipsee_steering:
I don't mean to hijack the thread, but ITR (all IT classes as well as the new World Challenge "production" cars), are recognized in the USERA Endurance Championship. Our season opener is March 24-25 at Carolina Motorsports Park with a pair of 3 hour enduros (that you can run alone or with a co-driver), and both days give you about 4.5 hours are track time PER DAY.. all for the early entry fee of $350 per race. (www.usenduro.com)
We are firm on CMP in March, Iowa Speedway (following Koni Challenge) April 22, and Mosport in May 19-20. Additional dates are being finalized as we speak.
I also agree with the advice offered above. I served as a rep on the ECR Committee (don't get me started) and you do need to make sure your local ECR rep knows how you feel about car classifications. It's probably too late to make any changes for 2007, but you need to make sure your rep knows how you feel as he/she starts planning for 2008.
Again, I apologize for the hijack, but I wanted those of you interested in ITR to know that there are endurance racing options available to you in 2007.
The Carolina Cup Pro Series will allow ITR cars for the 2007 season (or at least part of it). An oversight on the part of the series caused the omission of ITR for our fist 2 events CMP and Rockingham. However, ITR will be added for our later events. If you have any questions please feel free to contact me.