enduro damage ethics

hey guys im a new racer with one season under my belt running regionals. my friend (who is a new racer) and i are planning to run in at least 1 or 2 enduros in 2006. we would be running my friends spec miata. In the case of car damage in an endurance race, traditionally who picks up the tab for car repairs? in most cases should the owner of the car expect to be responcible for damages by either driver?, or is the "you break it you buy it" approach the most common.

I ask because we are both on limited budgets, and though i would have no problem doing repairs or assisting financially, i am curious as to how you guys handle such situations.

thanks

normally it is paid by the person who damaged it...if it is someone who rents the car normally he will probably ask for a damage deposit...

Whatever you do, work it out clearly ahead of time!
Don't let an unspoken assumption guide you......you and your friend are likely to have different assumptions.

When I drive a friend's car in enduros, we have a pre-agreed max value on the car. If I destroy the thing, I give him the max value and keep the wreck (which I can sell back to him if he wants it).

If I am driving the car and damage it, I fix it (or pay to fix it, if I choose).

We don't have pefect definition of "destroyed" versus "heavy damage"....that's something we've talked about working out before next season.

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Originally posted by zracre@Nov 28 2005, 01:05 AM
normally it is paid by the person who damaged it...

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I would clarify that statement to read, "...by the person who was driving the car when it was damaged." Absolutely DO get everything figured out and written down before you play. We use a non-legalese Letter of Agreement and - so far - it has worked out fine. As an owner, I give drivers the option of paying for fixes or "making it right" themselves, like if they've got a bodyshop in their pocket.

I also simply try to be fair about stuff. At the Summit 12 hours, one guest driver got scuffed behind a rear wheel by a Miata. I got scuffed (by a Miata, too) in the same place so, rather than profit from my co-driver's bad luck, I paid for the fix myself, figuring that it would have needed repair even if he hadn't gotten nudged.

You'll want to figure out what to do about mechanical failures, too. What if the engine goes kerblooey while you are at the wheel?

K

Yes - what they said.

Also include the wear & tear on the car for things that are not really consumables but do get worn out (shocks, transmissions etc) and work out how to deal w/ the stuff that happens that you can't identify - the rock through the headlight, the tire mark on the rear quarter that no one can remember happenening etc.

The best way is to pick your co-drivers carefully. This goes for crew too. You can't reasonably look at your volunteer crew member when a wheel gets loose & you demolish the car as a result.

Easy for me to say, I am lucky I get to drive with the best group out there. You know you who are.

Lots of good advice here. Bottom line is, each case is different. Rental fees tend to cover consumables like tires, brakes, etc. Mechanical failures can be tough. If you miss a shift, and zing the motor, that should be on you. If it's a fresh motor, and was put together poorly, and lunches, it shouldn't be on the driver(s).

Split driving duties, like enduros, can be done a couple of ways. Either the driver behind the wheel at the time of the incident, is on the hook for the whole thing, or you can make a prior arrangement when all the drivers split the cost. I was involved in a 24 hour race, where there were several drivers in the car. The deal was, that the damage would be divided by 1 more than the number of drivers. Everybody was on the hook for what ever that amount worked out to be, and the driver was on the hook for the 'extra share'.

It all depends on what works for you and the car owner. Most importantly though, get it in writing, up front. This includes an agreed upon ball-up price for the car, and who gets to keep the wreck. My take is, if you wad the car up, and have to pay for it, you get to keep what's left (you essentially bought the car). If you can recoup some of your expense by parting out what's left, that's your perogative.

Like everyone else said… you can't be to careful!!!

We did an enduro with both of our cars, no agreements, just shared cost on tires, entry, brakes, axles, bearings, and other things that would need to be replaced after that event as preventive maintenance measures.

In the race both cars got very badly damaged.

1st car: We got a bad set of pads from Porterfield (Still hate that company), and one car hit a wall at 80MPH and did a dance/pirouette on the nose before landing back on its wheels (car totaled, (in most people minds).

We paid for all the damages, as we had no agreements set up, and we also felt the damages were not the drivers fault, however the incident could have been avoided as the driver could have slowly brought the car back to the pits when they had brake fade (We know as we drive the cars, however we didn’t expect the driver to realize that you only get one warning and then there are no brakes).


2nd car: The other car had an electrical fire that destroyed all of the electrical components...

We paid for all the damages, as we had no agreements set up, and we also felt the accident was not the drivers fault, however the total amount of damage could have been avoided as the driver could have shut off master switch when smoke started pouring into the car.

The other part in this race that we felt bad about was that we drove our cars first before the other co-drivers. We got our full stints in and had made the driver swaps. We had three drivers in each car. The third drivers didn't get any seat time but the money was already spent. We only charged them their portion of the entry fee as we didn’t get that back. If you are that third driver you really feel like you "wasted" a bunch of money especially if you didn't get to drive (even if you only got charged $100 and paid for your travel/lodging/food expenses).

Raymond “I would be honored to drive your car” Blethen

Ah - good point there. My policy is that the guests always drive first, unless they decide otherwise. Cuts down on hard feelings that might aggravate collection difficulties should problems arise.

K

Not a complete answer- but much of your question already has been.

My 2c:
Charge more for the rental and less for the 'nickel and dime stuff' - You may seem high rental $$$ compared to others - but people feel better that way.
Also perhaps consider a 'maximum liability' for crash damage.

For example, you completely destroy the race car- the payment is $5000.
Of course, a car will rarely- if ever- be completetly totaled with no hope of usable spare parts.

Consider what it would cost for say a new shell (say $20,000 if it's one of those rare audi coupe GT's , maybe $500 if it's a neon) - and the wiz-bang suspension components, engine, etc... that would most likely be damaged- and your cost to rebuild the *new* car back to a point similar to what it is now.

Most importantly, I would recommend renting to SOMEONE YOU KNOW.
Do have the rental drivers drive first!

~E.

As a team when my brother, dad and I drive enduro's we now run my brother first (good at starts and accident avoidence), my dad second (as he is excellent at maintaining and keeping the car in one piece), and I run last (I can run the Audi as it is falling appart).

We have learned that those are VERY different qualities, and I think that it is especially important for the last driver to know the little warning signs that could result in an accident.

Raymond

Ed has given the best advice--Know your co-drivers!

Heck, I have given cars to freinds (for an entire season) who had no ride on the understanding that they maintain/ fix it on their dime. No rent; no hassles.

How is this done? Knowledge of his driving record and "spendthriftness". Spendthriftness means he is not too poor and is willing to pick up the tab even if it hurts a bit.

Wealthy folks can also be tightwads, so selection is tough. You are looking for someone experienced in racing and honorable.

Good luck.

Just a brief addition to JoeG 's thoughts.

Make sure that your codriver not only CAN (financially) pay thier part in the inevitable crash/missed shift/someoneelse's oops stuff that happens on the track. But that they WILL. This is a character issue that only you can answer. My own wallet is still 1700.00 dollars light from the person who destroyed my first racecar and swore to me that she would make it right. She didn't and apparently has no guilt for it.

Good Luck and welcome to the madness.

cheers
"dangerous" dave parker

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Originally posted by dave parker@Nov 29 2005, 03:01 PM
Just a brief addition to JoeG 's thoughts.

Make sure that your codriver not only CAN (financially) pay thier part in the inevitable crash/missed shift/someoneelse's oops stuff that happens on the track. But that they WILL. This is a character issue that only you can answer. My own wallet is still 1700.00 dollars light from the person who destroyed my first racecar and swore to me that she would make it right. She didn't and apparently has no guilt for it.

Good Luck and welcome to the madness.

cheers
"dangerous" dave parker

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I made it pretty clear to every driver (they know who they are and will tell you so...)
that if this sort of thing happened - that EVERYONE within earshot of the US of A would know who they are - and what the situation(s) was/were....

Needless to say- I never had that problem - and if I did- I'd have no qualms about posting it here or on another 100 more message boards!

Yeah- I'm a dick! - but I never had a problem!

With this type of attitude also comes a RESPONSIBILTY to deliver on the type of prepared car that you allude to... and not sweat the small stuff...

Set the CORRECT EXPECTATIONS UPFRONT. Then you should be fine.

~E.

Something else I had considered when I had a car to rent was this.

The person using the car buys it from you at some agreed upon fair price. You have an agreement that says that if the car is returned with no damgage beyond normal wear and tear, you will buy the car back from him for an agreed upon fair price (what he paid - wear and tear, etc.)

If the car gets damaged, he either fixes it to "pre wreck" condition or you agree on a revised buy back price.

Any track support, transportation, etc. is covered under separate agreement with separate payment.

This arrangement would serve two purposes. First, the person providing the car for rent has no real financial risk. Set the "Sale" price fair but safe and worst case, you just sold you car (which beats having someone wreck or steal it with no payment).

Second, since the person driving owns the car, they have all of the liability in the event of an incident. Again, if you are at the track, you are there under separate agreement providing your experience and expertise for a fee.

Just a thought. I would obviously work better with less expensive cars versus exotic or highly developed cars. It would work great with something like a SM where it is fairly easy to place a value/cost on one.

Just my .02. Perhaps I'll have a car again so I can test the theory.

Rory

As an example, I've let one of my very best friends drive my car several times in an enduro in order to keep his license current (plus, we all have a good time). I used to get it back with severely flat spotted tires (to the cord). I let that go as they would be used up during the race anyway. Three years ago I watched him make a stupid passing attempt that destroyed my spoiler. I built another one and said nothing. Last year, he T-boned another car and ruined my bumper (lucky that was all). I repaired that, too, but I've bitched about it constantly since. This year he failed to see a climbing temp guage during a full course yellow and the motor is now a boat anchor...with the accompanying DNF). Not only do I have that to repair and replace, but he still owes me for his portion of the expenses. Now, as I said, this guy is one of my very best friends in my life. He and I would do anything, anytime for one another and our families. But, in order to save that friendship, he is no longer going to drive my car...anytime, anywhere.
Think about what you get into when you share something that means so much to you. All the incidents with my co driver could've been avoided, but also were racing incidents that could've been blamed on other circumstances. But his friendship is more important to me than racing.

Just my two cents.

I've only had the opportunity to run one enduro (using my car). I had an absolute blast... unfortunately my co-driver had his portion of the race end quickly... thru no fault of his own (car-to-car crash).

But we had agreed before the weekend that we would split all preparation expenses --brakes, tires, etc., and split all repair costs... regardless of who was driving.

I think this is the fairest approach. Then there is no fingerpointing.... like "I crashed because you wore out the brakes." etc.

It was an expensive weekend for both of us, but we both stood by our agreement and the car was back the next season. I would not hesitate co-driving with him again.

Why have I not run an enduro again? Way too much work in preparation... and it beats the heck out of the car. :blink:

Anthony R.
ITA #86 NER

thanks for the great advice everyone. better safe than sorry is definitly the game plan here. I'll be sure to make prior agreements and policies about car damage before the race.

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Originally posted by rsx858@Dec 21 2005, 03:58 AM
thanks for the great advice everyone. better safe than sorry is definitly the game plan here. I'll be sure to make prior agreements and policies about car damage before the race.

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Better yet: You might just decide... Rent SOMEONE ELSE'S car!
I've done that my fair share of times!

Fortunately, I've never had to explain circumstances like those outlined above. .. ;^)

~E.

Edwin and I have raced together many times. We always have a great time out there with our friends.

At summit point one year we had two cars, identical SSC Neons. Edwin please tell the story of this one.................the off track excursions they thought we didnt know about and brake pads/ dnf etc. and of course the attitudes.

Another car Edwin and I co-drove was owned by another friend. Two years in a row the damn alternator went at Homestead. How many times did we swap and charge the batteries in that race E ? The alternator went because another driver was rough and broke the exhaust, cooking the alternator causing it to fail ! Another co-driver consistantly flat spotted tires. Edwin can add more to this story....... Why did this all happen you may ask ???? Well it would seem they were competitng against their co-drivers more than racing an endurance race looking for fastest lap time !

I raced the 25 Hour one year and under a full course ( double yellow ) I got drilled by a car while I was on the straightaway approacing a multi car accident scene with the track partially blocked. Now it was in the morning but sun was up. I was moving fast but not at race speed. The car had the rear crushed in. We finished but it cost me $2500 to fix the car. The other driver never saw me. The damn corner workers never saw the incident and radioed my smoking car in two corners later wondering how that happened !!!

I had two Cobra R's in Grand Am Cup. I met potential rental drivers at Daytona test days. Many were interested. I turned all but one away. Needless to say we finished 1st and 7th at Daytona and as for the rental guys that I turned away. Their cars all dnf'd for various reasons. Remember RENTER BEWARE also!!!!

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Originally posted by GregM@Jan 5 2006, 09:57 PM
Edwin and I have raced together many times. We always have a great time out there with our friends.

At summit point one year we had two cars, identical SSC Neons. Edwin please tell the story of this one.................the off track excursions they thought we didnt know about and brake pads/ dnf etc. and of course the attitudes.

Another car Edwin and I co-drove was owned by another friend. Two years in a row the damn alternator went at Homestead. How many times did we swap and charge the batteries in that race E ? The alternator went because another driver was rough and broke the exhaust, cooking the alternator causing it to fail ! Another co-driver consistantly flat spotted tires. Edwin can add more to this story....... Why did this all happen you may ask ???? Well it would seem they were competitng against their co-drivers more than racing an endurance race looking for fastest lap time !

I raced the 25 Hour one year and under a full course ( double yellow ) I got drilled by a car while I was on the straightaway approacing a multi car accident scene with the track partially blocked. Now it was in the morning but sun was up. I was moving fast but not at race speed. The car had the rear crushed in. We finished but it cost me $2500 to fix the car. The other driver never saw me. The damn corner workers never saw the incident and radioed my smoking car in two corners later wondering how that happened !!!

I had two Cobra R's in Grand Am Cup. I met potential rental drivers at Daytona test days. Many were interested. I turned all but one away. Needless to say we finished 1st and 7th at Daytona and as for the rental guys that I turned away. Their cars all dnf'd for various reasons. Remember RENTER BEWARE also!!!!

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Racing is rarely, if ever, incident and circumstance free.
I have no desire or interest in 'placing blame'.

Bottom line is this: When a person can come out and say:
'Here's what happened...' and is up-front about it.
THAT'S THE TYPE OF PERSON TO RENT TO - AND/OR DRIVE WITH.

I've been on BOTH sides of that.
Fortuantely, every time I was driving with someone else, it wasn't mega-serious errors that I committed.

That's why I say you build some 'fudge factor' pricing into your rental charge- and not sweat the small stuff.

Now, when I'm driving my own car, that's a different story.
Hell, I think there should be a junkyard in Watkins Glen with my name on it!
;^)

~E.

P.S. For the record- I can honestly say I don't think I've ever rented a 'perfectly prepared' car. I don't think many people could lay claim to that.
I've always rented what I felt was a 'duly prepared' car- and believe me - I've had things go wrong, and break, and come undone, and all that S*** plenty of times on my cars. AND I FELT BAD EVERY TIME.
Never have I felt that preparation was poor on any cars I've rented or driven.
Nor have I ever felt that anyone else intentionally created damage or incidents to any of the cars.

OK, I'll throw in some thoughts here since I've had a few interesting experiences that are relevant.

If you are renting, make sure you like the car when you drive it, or you and others may suffer the consequences! I co-drove a friend's Porsche 944 ITS car that wasn't super fast but was a very predictable nice handling car no matter what the fuel state or condition of the tires, etc. and that's a car I could drive all day and not have any problems with. I also co-drove a ITB Golf that was again not super fast but well prepared and easy to drive, and again I had no problems and could have done stints in the car for days on end.

Most recently I co-drove a car that I did not think was as well prepared as I had expected, and I was rather uncomfortable driving it. The crew chief and I never really got on the same page with our communication about setup, etc. and I spun the car on my own multiple times in practice. I may have been running into my talent limitations as far as driving, but I just couldn't really come to grips with the car. At the time I thought about possibly bowing out of the whole deal and letting them keep my rental fee, and in retrospect that's probably what I should have done. In the race I was partly to blame for a crash that totaled two cars, and it might have been avoided had I not driven the car in the race. If I had withdrawn from the driving squad the team might have had to find another driver, or maybe the other rental drivers would have gotten more seat time for free... In any case I understood my obligation after the accident and ended up paying for a destoyed car.

This was exactly the information I was looking for.

I am preparing my SSM-class Miata for the "The Devil in the Dark," the 12-hour race scheduled for June at New Jersey Motorsports Park. I have run the Last Chance enduro at the Glen four times before in my car with friends under a gentleman's agreement. This race is different. The preparation is pretty daunting and fairly expensive, and the sheer length of the race adds to the risk. All this is complicated by the identification of team members, and making suitable arrangements.

The touchiest issue is ensuring the understanding about damage before the race. One driver is a good friend and a stand-up guy. One potential driver is the same, another is an acquaintance with a good driving record and deep pockets, and another is a stranger to me, but comes recomended by a good friend who is a talented driver.

I have been thinking about whether to get something in writing, and am convinced after reading this thread that I should. Any awkwardness about getting something in writing, particularly from my friend, is outweighed by the potential ugliness that may ensue if without everyone understanding the arrangement before the race.

On that note, can anyone who uses a letter of agreement or something similar be willing to share a copy? Also, can anyone share the figures they have used to calculate the per-driver contribution?

Thanks.

The ONLY time I ever had trouble actually collecting for race damage, it was two guys (best buddies/teammates) both renting cars from me for a sprint race. They ran into each other and since each thought it was the other's fault - and they were both broke - they kept pointing at one-another. I had a deposit from each but not big enough to cover anything substantial, and I had to fix two fenders/doors.

Send me an email at [email protected] and I'll send a copy of what I use. It was NOT written by lawyers but has 20 years of experience wrapped up in it...

K

EDIT - If talking about getting terms in writing is awkward for you or the other party, you should *not* rent to them. You don't KNOW awkward until the stuff is bustified.

I have some experience on the expensive side. I was running an enduro with my buddy John Costello driving his car. I jumped in the car and didn't even make one lap - got drilled by a BMW into the wall. Ended up costing me $1700 or so - that's racing but you must ante up if you are behind the wheel.

My rules - if you are behind the wheel and there is crash damage, offroad damage or whatever - you pay.

If the motor blows, trans blows, catches fire - owner and driver split the costs. You can't know if the problems were maintenance or driver...

Get it in writing unless you drive with somebody you know very well who will pay and can pay...

Between me and my friends, we've always totaled up the expenses (prep, race, restoration - no fault) and divided by the number of drivers. With unknown renters, get a deposit and a contract.
Chuck

A typical endurance race gives you a season's worth of wrecking opportunities in a single shift. It ain't fair but 1 year racing won't give you a lot of experience under your belt to recognize when prudence is dictated.

My advice, drive like your number 1 priority is to hit nothing. If your lucky you won't. Thats what I do. If you drive clean, you'll finish, and you'll be invited back.

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Originally Posted by dave parker

Just a brief addition to JoeG 's thoughts.

Make sure that your codriver not only CAN (financially) pay thier part in the inevitable crash/missed shift/someoneelse's oops stuff that happens on the track. But that they WILL. This is a character issue that only you can answer. My own wallet is still 1700.00 dollars light from the person who destroyed my first racecar and swore to me that she would make it right. She didn't and apparently has no guilt for it.

Good Luck and welcome to the madness.

cheers
"dangerous" dave parker

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Aww c'mon Dave, everybody knows she's a crazy bitch...

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Originally Posted by evanwebb

Aww c'mon Dave, everybody knows she's a crazy bitch...

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Evan
Well, yes. But it still does not make the outcome right. :dead_horse:

However, if I think about it too much I will just get pissed off all over again.

Thanks for the kind thought.
cheers
dave parker

I poured fuel for the Margarita team in the Nelson 24 Hour race a fews years ago. After all the wrecking I saw go on, I swore I'd never get in that mess of entering my own car in an endurance race. Instead, I'd just get an agreement from someone else to drive their car and suffer whatever consequences arise.