ITA and Small Bore Group, Change Needed for 2007

Right now I believe there is a problem with combining ITA and Small Bore cars at NER events. The core issue is the “standard” of contact that each group of competitors feels is acceptable. It greatly conflicts. I as a GTL competitor in a predominantly ITA field feel I need to express what is acceptable and expected.

GTL and Production cars generally have no bumpers and light weight fiberglass bodywork that can be damaged with very minor contact. We race with all cars knowing that and we try to respect each other’s vehicles by not making willful contact with each other.

IMO, the majority of ITA drivers feel that front to rear contact is perfectly acceptable and in some cases warranted. Contact of this nature between IT cars with federally mandated 5 MPH bumpers usually results in nothing worse than scuffed paint. For my car this past weekend that type of contact resulted in a cracked fiberglass taillight panel, a trunk lid that no longer fits properly and bent body support framework on the rear of the car. This is why Small Bore competitors try to race with as little contact as possible.

Before the 2006 season started, it was announced that Small Bore (GTL & Production) would be combined with ITA. I attended the NER CRB meeting that this was discussed at and I objected, based on the differing level of accepted contact between the groups. I even requested that my class, GTL, be combined with Big Bore. My case didn’t carry enough weight to sway the decision, so we have raced together for 2006.

In my opinion, under the current differing driving philosophies this isn’t working.

From my perspective, as a driver of a more fragile car, changes need to be made for 2007 and I offer the following as solutions in my order of preference.

1. Separate Small Bore from ITA and move it back in with SRF where it has raced in the past.
2. Convince the ITA competitors that contact with a Small Bore car, irregardless of how minor will result in damage and adopt a Zero contact policy between ITA and Small Bore cars that both sides will agree to.

I came from ITC racing before I built my GT car. I was one of the drivers involved in the infamous Bruce Kapstan, Chief Steward, F-ing Ashtray speech given after a qualifying session where about every car had metal to metal contact. The following race had ZERO metal to metal contact. I know it can be done we ALL just need to work at it.

The "majority"??

I can't agree with that....I don't know that the majority of IT (A) drivers feels that the front to rear contact you describe is either "perfectly acceptable or warranted".

I CAN think of one person, who has posted videos in which he has done some "bump drafting"...but in each case, he's been on a straight, and in each case the car he's bumped is another bumpered car. But.....to state that even he feels that such contact is ok with anything other than an IT car is completel conjecture. So I can't agree with that statement.

Since you bring this subject up as the result of a specific incident, and refer to that incident, it's hard to sperate that incident from the concept.

And, that involves other issues. Even in the same class, those issues arise. Sadly, I have been in situations due to spins or justr basic boneheadedness, where I am being lapped, and the protocol in that situation is different than it is in a position battle. I think that most people getting lapped make an extra effort to steer clear, point by, or otherwise remove themselves of the race, and for two reasons.

1- Sportsmanship....I don't want to play a role in the outcome of a race, especially when it will cost me nothing to do so.
2- (and this is more pertinent, I suppose), is that when the leaders come through, they are at the ragged edge....nothing is left on the table...every nanosecond counts, and it's more likely that, when on the edge, any little bobble, on my part or theirs, will result in heartache.

So for me, while I know I have a "right" to the track, I try to get the heck outa the way..to me it's just smarter odds.

Your other post states that your contact was intentional. But was the initial contact intentional??? Your implications are that it was intentional. (".....IMO, the majority of ITA drivers feel that front to rear contact is perfectly acceptable and in some cases warranted. ....... For my car this past weekend that type of contact resulted in.....") But...what were the conditions that conspired to create it?

Close quaters during a lapping?
Was your car running well? any stumbles? (your statements indicate the contact was front of other car to rear of yours)
Was there a bobble on either parties part?

What I'm getting at here is that I don't know if I can agree with the case that the run group is inherently dangerous, when we have one incident thats being referrred to, and we don't have all the facts.

Sometimes things aren't what they appear...I've been guilty of tagging someone from behind myself, but in each case there were other influences, such as being the domino and getting it from behind myself, or the leading car stumbling on corner exit. Things happen in tight quarters, but I can't agree that the root cause of this was philosophical or intentional, without hearing more about the actual situation, and I also haven't heard of other similar events that indicate it's a trend.

Now....would Prod or GTL or ITA racers prefer to be in separate groups?? I suspect so..

Dave,
I guess since you didn't get the response you were looking for in your other post, you decided to start this one.......... Not sure why you are looking to stir things up. Which is what's going to happen when, as a GT competitor you trash IT drivers on an IT site!!! :rolleyes: Nothing productive is going to come out of it.


Believe me, we did not like running with the Prod and GT cars either. There were several incidents over the season, including the one yeterday, that could have determined the outcome of the championship!!!!

And a rule to inforce no contact between GT cars and IT cars??? Last I know there wasn't supposed to be any contact, ever. And that's kind of an ironic statement considering the "incident" yesterday.

Dave, I'm with you 100% for splitting up the groups! Considering the car counts between the two classes, ITA is big enough for their own.....


- Edit -

Yes, there was too much over agressive driving in yesterday's ITA races. I don't think there was a driver there that wouldn't agree......... It also comes from the fact that there were 26 (?) ITA cars out there.

While I fully understand Dave's position, I cannot agree that ITA drivers find an overwhelming desire to hit other cars with any more frequency that any other class. Like Jake, I have been known to have nose-to-tail contact in the past, some of it accidental and some of it incidental but my intent isn't to uphold the SCCA mantra of Spoiled Children Crashing Automobiles. My intent behind the wheel is to have some fun, prove to myself that I don't suck as a driver and to keep both myself and my fellow competitors safe by not making any wildly stupid manouevers.

The Washington DC Region has run SSB/SSC cars with Small Bore for the past few years. After the initial whining about "Those cars have bumpers and WILL hit our fragile Production cars" and "Those cars are on slicks and will out corner us but hold us up in the straights", they play well together. Most of the contact in that group comes from Production car to Production car.

Ideally every group would race by themselves but we know that isn't practical. Furthermore, I don't know that Small Bore would enjoy racing with Big Bore . Just b/c the cars are all Production doesn't mean that it'll be enjoyable to point the faster cars by, race with your class for half a lap and then point the faster cars by again. Not that the DC Region is the be-all, end-all but Big Bore and Small Bore are separated to maintain safety and to allow both groups to have a full-length (or thereabouts) race.

I believe Dave has a good point, and I'm a bit surprised at the hostility directed his way. There is an alternative to banging somebody with your bumper: LIFT.

You will not like it.

It will slow you down.

It may cost you a position.

It may even cost you a points championship.

I have heard more than one respected NER ITA driver talk recently as if lifting to avoid tapping someone was not an alternative.

It is.

I'm not condemning everybody who's ever used the chrome horn. But when a class accepts bumper-tag as a standard practice (SM in the past couple years, ITA this year), we tend to see a rise in other, more serious incidents in that class. I don't believe that's a coincidence.

Steve U
Flatout Motorsports
05 ITS

Keep in mind all of my opinions are from an observer's standpoint, but having crewed strictly for cars competing in ITA for the last 4 years in this region I've kept quite a keen eye. Prior to this year with all the weight changes the cars battling for first were usually the same 3, sometimes only 2 battling closely for the top spot. Just from the past I noticed a lot of contact up front in the ITA races but since there were only a couple top guys a couple seconds ahead of the rest of the pack it wasn't such an issue and maybe not much of an actual "race" ensued and the rest of the field, was, for the most part pretty incident free. The field was also pretty spread out so that helped keep incidents low. Now with more equality, and coincidentally I think more talent and better developed cars, the battle for first stretches now among 5 and sometimes to 7 or 8 cars all within a second as far as times go. And add to that this is spread among 5 different types of cars so there on-track capabilites differ depending where on the track they are. I think that is the big change. Now throw a different class that qualifies in the top 10 of this field with even more varied capabilites in car and driver and it can make it tough.

I think if this was 3 years ago, none of these issues would have come up, but with the ITA field being more competitive, car counts going up, the # of different cars competing and how much the times are falling in light of all of this, it makes for some additional "love taps" that you didn't see just a few years ago. So, I don't think it's ITA drivers just being more aggressive than any other class, but in the NER at least the battle for the top 5 spots in ITA can be any one of 7-8 guys with just as many different cars. That's gonna make for some tight racing and unfortunately topics like this coming up. So, another region may not see any of these problems at all as the landscape of cars can change quite a bit from region to region. I think ITA in the NER is probably one of the most competitive in the country, lots of really fast cars and drivers to match.

Not much of a solution for either side, but just my humble opinion as to why you're seeing this.

Hopefully it can be worked out amicably.

steve

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I believe Dave has a good point, and I'm a bit surprised at the hostility directed his way. There is an alternative to banging somebody with your bumper: LIFT.

You will not like it.

It will slow you down.

It may cost you a position.

It may even cost you a points championship.

I have heard more than one respected NER ITA driver talk recently as if lifting to avoid tapping someone was not an alternative.

It is.

I'm not condemning everybody who's ever used the chrome horn. But when a class accepts bumper-tag as a standard practice (SM in the past couple years, ITA this year), we tend to see a rise in other, more serious incidents in that class. I don't believe that's a coincidence.

Steve U
Flatout Motorsports
05 ITS
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Steve,
In no way am I saying bumper tapping is OK. I don't hink anyone on this topic or the other have said it's OK. I wasn't even saying that ITA isn't aggressive. Remember, I was taken out at the start of a race with heavy damage, due to aggressive driving this year.

What I am saying is, I think Dave is trying to make his point about the "incident" yesterday by starting a topic about over-aggressive ITA drivers. And we all know there is much more to this story than a few bumper taps........

Steve L,
Good points!!

Steve, agreed, but I hope my post didn't come off as hostile.

My point was that there can be several reasons for contact that aren't optional to the following driver. You come off a corner aggresively, as you always do, and the car in front stumbles, or misses a shift and boom...you're in the back of him. Or going in a corner he brakes sooner than you'd expect, boom..again, a tap.

Neither are intentional.....

When Dave stated that he intentionally initiated contact, I would have to assume he did so as a pay back, but I haven't heard any evidence yet that the hit(s?) on his bumper were intentional. But it sounds as though Dave assumed they were, due to his core feeling that the IT drivers, as a rule, drive in such a manner.

So, I'm just trying to understand how and if the facts back up the conclusion.

Jeff and Jake, your points are noted and respected.

Jake, I should have been more specific. As you say, there are many possible causes for bumper-to-bumper contact. I was talking only about one driver intentionally giving another a shot. It is indeed a different matter when the front car misses a shift, etc. And we've all been in accordions on Lap 1, they are an Act of God :D .

Jeff, I can't read Dave's intentions in launching the thread. Maybe you're right.

Let me put a little forward spin on this thread. Are there any IT drivers willing to defend the intentional bumper tap? If so, when and why do you do it? What's the etiquette? Most curious.

Remember, I'm not talking about accidental contact. I'm talking about situations in which you consciously opt to nerf a guy rather than breathe the throttle.

Steve

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Let me put a little forward spin on this thread. Are there any IT drivers willing to defend the intentional bumper tap? If so, when and why do you do it? What's the etiquette? Most curious.

Remember, I'm not talking about accidental contact. I'm talking about situations in which you consciously opt to nerf a guy rather than breathe the throttle.

Steve
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Yes....

..........When I know the guy,
..........and I know his car can handle the tap.
..........and we're not in a corner and the tap won't upset the balance of the car...
..........and the kind of tap I'm talking about is when the speed differential is low...like a mph or 2.

Never with a GT car, or a Prod car, and really, since I don't know the drivers in other groups/classes, really no other car.

And...if I know the guy ahead of me is "funny" about stuff like that, then no.

Once, in the NARRC Runoffs I was in a 3 way battle for 3rd, I think, with Ray Lee Chee and Dave Canavan....(or was it Pete Smith?) in a 240 SX. I got a good shot on the penultimate lap on the 240SX out of the esses, and was sure I was going to nose into his rear bumper. He was going straight, so I kept it flat. Of course, the 240SX torque kicked in and he motored away, and had a 15 foot advantage by the time we hit the uphill..

I raced with Jake Fisher in his MR2 once at NHIS...I had a blown apex seal, but we were having a very long and close battle. It was fun. I eased into him once, then the next lap I saw him waving at me in the same spot. But I lifted, thinking he might be ticked from the last lap. After the race he came up to me all smiling and congratulatory on my eventual pass on him, and I asked him about the waving. He said he was trying to encourage me to hit him again...but harder!

With the torque moster the 12A rotary is, it's not a decision I need to make often...;)


So, my take is a very qualified yes, under a very specific set of conditions, and at a speed differential that is well under what the cars bumper was designed for.

That said, it is pretty clear that any physical contact is forbidden in the GCR.

I will agree and disagree with Dave. While it may APPEAR that this type of contact is acceptable, it isn't as a general rule. Insert your own justification for why it may be in rare instances.

Where I do agree is that the philosophies are different. We as IT drivers do need to be sensitive to the types of cars we are running with and against. I think a little more conscientious thought from both categories could go a long way. Leaving more room that usual and making a big effort to point faster cars by could make the run groups work in harmony. I know I am guilty of not fully understanding the implications of contact that would be 100% harmless in IT - now applied to a GTL car. Not in an intentional manner mind you, in an incidental manner.

The point about the closeness of the racing and the competitiveness of the 25-30 cars now populating ITA in NER needs to be weighted as well by OTHER classes running in the group. I don't want to make it seem like the IT guys need to do all the learning here...liken this situation to a National class with 4-5 cars within a half second, all coming through lapped traffic - with a Regional Championship on the line...

I would be happy to work with Dave on support for a proposal for new groups in 2007 or a 'co-educational' meeting or program to help drivers understand each others issues.

AB

Andy, Thank you.

Something needs to give in this group. It scares the hell out of me to ride around the track under full course yellow watching the safety crew cut the roof off a fellow competitor's car to extract him on a back board. My biggest fear is if we don't get his under control now, it will become a more common occurance.

You have my support.

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That said, it is pretty clear that any physical contact is forbidden in the GCR.
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And in my neck of the woods might get you tossed from the race.

I'm starting to get the idea that some who are real sticklers for prep rules might not be quite so rigorous about following the on-track rules.

I've got some relatives that are (were) big Dale Earnhart fans. I remember him putting Terry Labonte into the wall on T4 final lap (Bristol?), and just shake my head and say if you can't pass someone without laying a bumper on them you aren't the driver you think you are.

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I've got some relatives that are (were) big Dale Earnhart fans. I remember him putting Terry Labonte into the wall on T4 final lap (Bristol?), and just shake my head and say if you can't pass someone without laying a bumper on them you aren't the driver you think you are.
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Amen Brother!!!!

Let's remember to seperate INTENTIONAL contact for the purpose of moving up the results sheet with INCIDENTAL contact happening for unintended reasons.

NOBODY is condoning intentional contact at the expense of another driver.

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NOBODY is condoning intentional contact at the expense of another driver.
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That's a pretty broad statement. How do you know?

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That's a pretty broad statement. How do you know? [/b]

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I was speaking in reference to this thread. I don't see it written anywhere but I could have missed it. Who said that?

People,

Having driven IT for years, and now in my 2nd year of Prod. Contact is still CONTACT. Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, it is still an issue of car control, and situational awareness. I can't cast stones, as I have "bumped" someone who has hit me, and I have "bump drafted" to go faster. Running in Prod now (with all the fiberglass parts) has made me allow a little extra room for error, as the consequences can cost more (in bodywork) for both drivers than in IT. We all can learn something from what we have read here, especially with both drivers posts, after having time to re-consider what happened. What we do is dangerous by its very nature. Please let's not forget that. Championships, even on our level, are extremely hard fought, and are hard to get. Let's just not forget that we are also just racing for a trophy.
Dave and Andy, props to you both for being men, and (after reflection) learning from this experience.
Lets hope we all gained something from this.
I know I did...........
Mark

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I was speaking in reference to this thread. I don't see it written anywhere but I could have missed it. Who said that?
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Not defending it - just the opposite, but suggesting that it's being done.

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I have heard more than one respected NER ITA driver talk recently as if lifting to avoid tapping someone was not an alternative.

It is.
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Andy, I'm not trying to pick a fight, and I'm not suggesting anything about you, but you're not the only guy out there. I've just seen way too many cars wrecked recently because some idiot got over-aggressive. And it seems like the closer you get to the pointy end of the grid the more idiot moves you see. Last week it was the top three ITA cars in the CenDiv in one avoidable incident. And I REALLY don't like cutting quarter panels off my car for a winter project - BTDT.

Just a procedural note as to groupings in NER. Last year for the first time Narrc agreed to have the same race groups at all regionals at LRP, NHIS and Poccono and these groups were based on historical car counts. ITA was up this year and I think SM and SSM were down so certainly this can be looked at again but it has to be done soon. The next Narrc meeting is early December and if it is not resolved by then the reserved numbers can not be set.