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On my Rabbit (83 GTI) I need to remove the front stock swaybar inorder for my new header to fit.
Does anyone have an approximation as to how much I will need to increase the front springs inorder to compensate for not running the sway bar?
Also any idea on how much spring the Neuspeed 22mm bar would equal?
Thanks
Depending on if you run an LSD, some people don't even run a front sway bar.
I have a different setup. The front sway bar, goes "forward" and mounts on a cross member that attaches to the lower control points. Basically, the front sway bar is attached to a lower stress bar.
I also run a locked front diff, so my setup is different. I run about a 22mm front bar, with a 19mm rear bar, with 500 lbs front springs and 350 lbs rear.
I do have access to a Quaife but don't want to have to re-invent my setup.
I'm running the same "relocate forward" setup that Tim is running, and same bar sizes, to avoid my Techtonics long tube header, except I'm running 400lb springs in the back. It makes for a fast car, but it is VERY unforgiving with 400lb springs in the back.
Meanwhile I am a running no front sway bar, both with a locked diff in the past and a peloquin now. Last years setup was 550f, 350r with a 29mm rear bar. It was nice but i found I still had some issues on certain corners and chose to try a setup another ITB guy had been using and sold to me when he moved to a neon. This season I am going to try out 700# fronts and 400# rears with the 29mm rear swaybar.
I'm not hatin' but whats with the super high spring rates.. The bunny goes all dog leg in nearly stock form as it is doesn't it? I would think super stiff springs would make that worse? I see the Honda guys run real stiff to and it seems to work, but kinda contradicts the "race/tune/build to win" books where they say run just enough spring rate to keep the bodywork off the tires, and use bar for the rest... my rear driver went fine for years under 200lb front and rear (am up to 300 in the front, but 175 in the rear). (I race a Toyota, but Have had several early bunnies, Scirocco, 3 Audis including my current A4 and a Touareg tow car).
The super high spring rates is to try and keep my inside front wheel on the ground. I have several pictures that even with the 550/350 setup and the rear sway while on 3 I still open up a gap on my inside tire. Now I could try running a front sway and less spring in the front with no sway in the rear and more spring but the last time I ran an mk2 on the track setup that way I was pushing both on and off the throttle. This setup works for me, I am smooth and getting faster and I get the rotation I want out of the car in most corners, I am hoping the higher spring rates will help me.
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The super high spring rates is to try and keep my inside front wheel on the ground. I have several pictures that even with the 550/350 setup and the rear sway while on 3 I still open up a gap on my inside tire. Now I could try running a front sway and less spring in the front with no sway in the rear and more spring but the last time I ran an mk2 on the track setup that way I was pushing both on and off the throttle. This setup works for me, I am smooth and getting faster and I get the rotation I want out of the car in most corners, I am hoping the higher spring rates will help me.
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Hmm.. Ok, thanks for the info. I borrowed a buddies CRX set up real stiff on a track day, and I could barely drive it! (like driving a mustang ;)
There are some differences in how you setup and drive a RWD car vs. a FWD car. The one thing about a stiff car, you have to be able to push the car fast enough to be able to use the stiff setup. At the begining of last season I know I wasn't working the suspension as much as at the end of the season. pictures, video from behind me show exactly that. But when I can see my car nearly bottomed out on the outside front of the car it means very little weight is on the inside front wheel. So thats why I increased the spring rates and will know for sure in a few weeks how differnt the car is.
Used to run 600/550 with no front sway bar and two Shine bars on the back on my GTi. That was heavier than most but it worked for me.
I was running 550# up front with 425# in the rear of my MK1 with a stock front bar. The car handled fairly neutral. In the MK3 we decided to go with an 800# front with a 550# rear. hopefully with this setup I will not have to add a Rear bar to get the rotation I am looking for.
Aaron
I run 550 front and rear, larger Neuspeed rear bar, stock GLI front bar. I have considered running more spring, based on results with a much lighter Rabbit my friend runs. I have also considered a larger front bar, just to see what it does for me - despite all the advise to the contrary.
I just like to prove it to myself sometimes. :bash_1_:
I ran 650F/375R w/ 2 big rear bars and no front bar on my Mk I ITB GTI. Car was very neutral to a tick loose on a dry track when the tires were up to temp. It was treacherous on a wet track or cold track, or before the tires were warm. To solve that problem, I'd remove one of the rear bars.
One of the problems w/ a front bar on an A1 chassis VW is that it tends to lift the inside front wheel as well, and make the car push. I know there are guys that run less front spring and a front bar, but I know way more that run stiffer front springs and no front bar. It worked for me. That's also the way I have my HP Rabbit set up.
I use no front bar and 450# fronts on A1. No bar and about 550# on the A2. The front bar upsets the outer front tire when the car is curbed on the inside of turns. T he big bar pulls down the body , onto the outside front tire, loosing the camber control and upseting the weight transfer, front and rear.
The bar also lowers the inside tire traction. And the weight is substantial.
The handling books say to use a bar. The books dont race very tall VW race cars with struts, or drive over the curbs to shorten the line. They also say to not run the control arms pointed up any, and the fast cars start withthe A arms flat and they point up as soon as the car is turned. That is also why the very stiff springs go faster. The A arm does not travel to the high angles as soon, with the roll center going way high.
Try the welded diff with the big # front and some adjust ment for the rear.
That seems to be the fastest, the welded diff keeps the inside front tire from locking up in the brake zones and pulls a lot better from the apex out. IMHO. When the setup is right , you wear out all the tires at pretty much the same session. with the outer front gone and the outer rear next.
Also, As I mentioned, the bushing induced ,rear steer seems to allow less rear spring wihile returning a very nice, neutral car .
Mike Ogren
Yeah the heavy springs keep our suspension from doing bad things by not letting it move. I don't have what I consider heavy springs on my car right now. It can allow you to run a car lower than the experts say is correct with good results.
Part of the problem w/ the front control arms angled up is the front roll center going under ground, but what I found to be the big problem is that you get nasty bump steer as the tie rod end is already well away from the tangent point in its arc of travel.
Very true. I forgot about correcting that on the Production car. Certainly a limiting factor for IT use.
I am really loving reading the posts on this thread, but I was wondering if anyone could chime in on one variable that has not come into the conversation...
tires...
1) what pressures are you running (cold/hot) in the front and rears.
2) is everyone here running the same size/brand??
3) please chime in with your spring rates, and front/rear sway bar rates
I would think that this information would also directly influence the way your car is handling... yes?
cj
..............................
2004 WRX Wagon
1984 VW Rabbit
dead...
many vw's rabbits, sciroccos, A2 Golfs...
Toyota celica GT 1984
1st car 1978 Mustang Also (II)
Im thinking of getting the front struts revalved for 550# springs. What rebound/compression would you guys recommend to go with?
Are most of you running 8" springs?
Different tires have different hot target pressures. The cold # is only for the first time out for the day.
My hot target# is 32 front, that works on the Spec racer 205/60 13 tires, 34 pushes, 30 rolls poor, so 32 is what I want for most of the race. The cold # might be 26 or 27. The front springs need to be 500-650. The 650 wont work with any stock rubber stuff, so i use 500 front because i use the Passat upper strut bearings and lower control arm bearings. Bilstein shox ,standard. 100$ from autozone.
The rear just has to turn in. Add more spring or swaybar and toe out, until it works. usually about 500# wheel rate. The tire pressures can be the final adjustment, along with fuel load. 38-60# in the rear is not uncommon. Welded diff needs about 350 rear wheel rate, open ,stock diff needs a lot of rear spring and is way slow. Quaife is between.
If it wont turn , add air and remove fuel until you look out the side windows, than put 2 gal of gas back in.
My welded diff Rocco is stupid loose until I get heat in the rear tires, then it hooks tight.
8in springs sound right but I may have 7in , along with Coleman adjusters. they are the best and cheapest, MM