At first I though Andy was talking about me!! LOL Then I did the math and said "not even close!!"
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Either way not everyone is going to be happy. I'm not convinced we've processed the more popular/front running cars in B yet. Another reason why I think there should be a date listed in the GCR for when each car is run through the process going forward.Quote:
Assuming that we haven't processed most of the cars in B, but just the more popular/front running ones, do we "fix" (if it is in fact off, Gary's post suggests it may not be) the power weight ratio and readjust the already processed cars?
Supposed to be a good system. That's probably not the issue.
Wow, that's some thread! First off, I hope everyone had a good holiday season and a Happy New Year. I started reading this a couple of days ago, and got pulled away. Just got around to finishing it. Unfortunately, I don't remember all the stuff from the previous 10 pages, and I don't have the time right now to re-read them. So for now, here are my two comments based on what I remember about the bulk of the thread:
1) It's acknowledged that twin-cam 16v motors in B and C use a 1.3 power factor, yet that same architecture in A, S, and R uses a 1.25 power factor. If this is truly the way it is, I can't imagine how anyone on the ITAC ever signed off on it. Different power gains for the same architecture, based only on class difference, when the prep rules are the same for all the classes? Really? And you expect people to buy that? Really?
2) The way I read it is, the Daytona / Laser is moving to C next year, but for this year, while it remains in B, it gets to run at the C weight. Is this correct? If so, what kind of shenanigans is that? A car gets its weight set based on a number of factors, including which class it will run in. How do you let a car run in a higher class at the lower class weight? Really? And people are supposed to buy that? Really?
As far as fixing mistakes goes, well, I think most of the folks around here know I how feel about that. Actually, that's not fair. Legit mistakes are just that, mistakes. It's cases where you have somebody in a position of influence, boning specific cars, where it's not a mistake any more. You know, guys that say "It's a 4A-GE, you do know that that's an Atlantic motor, don't you?"
Nice to see everyone again!
Bill, I can't argue with you on 1. I understand where the guys who are advocating 1.3 are coming from, but I disagree with them.
On 2, let us explain. Using teh process, the Daytona/Laser should be at some ungodly low weight in ITB -- like 2000 lbs. They'll never make it, so they are getting processed and going to C. Their "processed" C weight is still LOWER than their present B weight (when it should be much higher if the B weight had been set by the process), but also much higher than what their "process" weight in ITB is. So they should pose no threat to the existing ITB cars.
That's the "why it is ok for one year" explanation. Here's the "why it has to be done this way." Apparently, we were within the deadline for fixing the weight via a technical correction for 2011 but not for moving it to C. So, we decided to give the drivers of these cars -- who were stuck with a weight somethign like 650 lbs over process weight in ITB -- a head start. They can now modify to make their weight in C, run in B this year, and then move to C next.
They won't be competitive in B this year, so no harm no foul.
That's the thinking. No shenanigans, just how it played out.
Jeff,
What's the logic from those that are advocating for 1.3 only for B and C, and not A, S, and R? I'd really like to see how someone can claim 1.25 for one group and 1.3 for another, when the prep rules are the same, and the architecture is the same.
As far as the Daytona / Laser issue, while I really like to see the process stand on its own, and I'm not really a fan of 'special cases', I'm also pragmatic enough to see where the occasional deviation is warranted. Based on your explanation, I'm satisfied that this indeed is one of those cases. I respectfully withdraw my shenanigans comment and will say that you guys did a nice job of handling a tough situation. I would have liked to see it go straight to C this year, but I understand that there are bureaucracy issues around that.
Well, no. That's not correct. The 4 cylinder BMWs do not get that power multiplier.
Look, the 2.8 as an unknown animal before ITR. It might not make but 25% more. Send in your build sheet and dyno plots, and a request to move it to 25% and it will be considered.
Thanks.
Jeff
So how does a 7 hp difference equate to a 220lb difference between the 1.8 Miata and the 1.9 BMW? Where's the 50lb weight break for having struts? It should be more like a 60lb difference.
As for my motor, expect to see mulitple dyno plots once I get it back togeather.
The Miata GETS +50 for double wishbone. Strut cars do not get -50 in addition.
1994 Miata 1.8 = 128hp
1996 Z3 1.9 = 138hp
The Z3 1.9 should weigh 2500lbs in ITA. Write a letter.
If the ITAC had agreed to pass the 'rear' suspension adder, difference would be 80lbs. (2420-2500)
Noem,
You can do it electornically now... It's how mine lost 35lbs a year ago.
Andy,
Is the 131bhp not for the BP-ZE motor not for the domestic market?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_MX-5
For the 1994 model year, the first-generation MX-5 was freshened with the introduction of the more powerful 1.8 L (110 cu in) BP-ZE engine, dual airbags and a limited slip differential in some markets. The chassis was substantially braced to meet new side-impact standards, most visibly by adding a "track bar" between the seatbelt towers inside the car, but also to the front and rear subframes. Also, 1994 and 1995 were the only years in which Mazda offered a light metallic blue paint (Laguna Blue Mica), making these cars rare collectors cars to some. 1994 also saw the introduction of the "R" package, a sport-themed package with Bilstein shocks and subtle underbody spoilers, in addition to the removal of unnecessary items such as power steering. No body style changes were made, however.
The new 1.8 L (110 cu in) engine produced 98 kW (131 bhp), which was then increased to 99 kW (133 bhp) for the 1996 model year. The base weight increased to 990 kg (2,200 lb). Performance was improved slightly, the additional power being partly offset by the extra weight. In some markets such as Europe, the 1.6 L (98 cu in) engine continued to be available as a lower-cost option, but was detuned to 66 kW (89 bhp). This lower-powered model did not receive all the additional chassis bracing of the new 1.8 L (110 cu in). Japanese and US cars were fitted with an optional Torsen LSD, which was far more durable than the previous viscous differential.
128hp bro.
http://www.miata.net/faq/miatachanges.html
No dog in this particular hunt, but if we're using either of the references in the last two posts (wikipedia.org & miata.net) as "official" word on the horsepower of a particular make/model, isn't that pissing into the proverbial wind? Just a little?
Jeff, since I don't get to hear from the other people, what is the logic of the other members that B&C multi vavle engines get the 130% but the other classes get 125%?
If the numbers are to represent the percent gain of a possible engine. how does simply changing a car class change it expected gain in IT trim?
not basing anyone I just don't understand.
My understanding is that CURRENTLY it's been necessary to invoke "that's the deal that was made" as the last time some kind of "official" OK of ITAC processes the 16v multiplier was in place. It went in place a LONG time ago (a la first application of multipliers, post-Miller-Ratio math by Darrin et al.) out of fear that newer cars would ruin the balance of power in B.
K
I heard about it when we were classing a 16V car in ITB, and the factor came up, and was defended with "That's the deal that was made for 16V cars going into ITB".
Yea, I don't get it either. Logically, I don't get it.
But I do "get it". Don't like it...but I get it.
Oh, on edit, to fill in the sequence of events and timing, neither Jeff, nor Josh were on the ITAC when that 'deal' was made, nor was I. My suspicion was that the very first iteration of the Process listed all 16V cars as getting 1.30. But, the very next line said "Check to ensure the results make sense". Which was done, and very quickly it became obvious that that factor was a bad assumption, and it was dropped. Certain cars were known to meet or exceed that factor but those cars got their weights based on actual real world data, not assumptions, during the GR. By the time the aforementioned car needed classing in ITB, the 1.3 factor hadn't been used as a starting point for 16 V engines in years. So, that 'deal' was before mine or Kirk's or Jeff's time, and I think Andy might have been just added to the ITAc, but he'll know for sure.
Steve, I don't really feel comfortable explaining the position of others, especially one I don't fully understand.
I think I can generically say that the folks who support the 1.3 factor for 16v cars in ITB believe that the 16v cars in ITB have that power potential.
Some of those folks occasionally post here; maybe they will do so and provide more explanation. That's all I really know.
Also, I hope this comes across correctly. It's not that I don't "care" about B and C, because I do. I'm charged with doing what I think is right for all of IT, including those two classes.
But I just don't have a whole hell of a lot of knowledge about those cars, and motors. Kirk, Scott G., Peter Keane, Les Cheney, etc. -- they all have far more knowledge than me, so unless it is an issue I've personally spent a lot of time with (like the ITB MR2 or the Mopar 2.2 motors) I frankly can't say I know a lot about it. I listen and try to vote appropriately, but I'm most often following others lead on issues related to B and C.
My focus/background is on the cars and motors in R and S, and to a lesser extent A, and I feel much more comfortable speaking about them.
Just some background on my background.
The folks that invoked the 'ALL 16V cars get 30%' did so ONLY when a 16V car came up in ITB, not in any other class. Now it's ONLY ITB and ITC? To say so was pure protectionism of ITB at the time. Don't care how anyone else remembers it.
Andy do you ever remember any 16V cars getting 30% in ITA? The only ones that got that were based on real world numbers, not assumptions. I'm with Andy, the 30% thing ONLY came up for ITB cars, and THEN the 'defense' was "That's the deal", and "the first iteration of the Process says so". And, "THATs the Process we sold the BoD". Never mind that that version of the process specifically said, "Check to make sure the calculations make sense, these are only guidelines".
I thought it mighty odd how suddenly we had to follow the earliest version, and then ONLY one aspect of it, for ONE class. :shrug: