IT-level cars coming to a National near you? B Spec Race Cars

Hi Dick , are you on the board? If so,please dont be offended;
I have no confidence in the SCCA board to keep this level. Only a pro style of 3 member board can do it right.IMHO. The plates/weights need to be placed maybe every race,IMHO.
Every winning car should get 25# for the next race, starting with qualifying.
There is nothing worse than watching a race with the fastcars in front and driving away. I always feel stupid when friends are over and we happen to watch some Road race . or race tape. They say to me> this is what you do>?? Why??
The tapes of the oval car are so much better. The winner( top 3) starts in the back and fights thru for 10 or 15 min. Pure excitement, sells tickets. Copy success, not failure.

The normal SCCA board will take 3 yrs to make Changes. NASA will be quicker.

Any pro series that needs to make money, will be very quick.
If you have inside knowledge, please expand upon how this will be any different than the normal club stuff.

RE The Sonic and Fiat. The Sonic will weigh almost 2600# bare nakedIMHO. and the Fiat can't make power. No amount of weights and plates will cheat physics. I dont expect the others to allow the cars to make 75 HP @ the wheels.

Any engineer in the world can put the cars on a lift and pick out the BMW/Mini as not fitting the spirit of the class. The Classic Mini was a true B spec car, maybe it should be allowed. The current Mini is a well designed small car with great driving dynamics. It is 8- 10K$ more than ,
most of the others.
Email me and I'll really tell you what I think.

Sorry. I just really hope that this is well done.
It is such an opportunity for the racers, the manufacturers, and all of the fans that may be.
MM

Dick is on the Board of Directors.

In a nutshell, the way the system works is that competition adjustments/additions are the responsibility of the Club Racing Board (CRB). Adjustments/additions can be requested by the membership through the CRB's web page:

http://www.crbscca.com/

Those requests are initially forwarded to the appropriate CRB sub-committee* (such as the IT Advisory Committee), at which point that committee reviews the request and makes a recommendation to the CRB. The CRB will review that recommendation and act on it. All actions are subject to BoD approval. The CRB has the "change control" authority for intra-year performance adjustments, but if it's an actual rule change then that change must be submitted to the BoD for approval for the subsequent rules year.

* I don't know if there's currently a B-Spec Advisory Committee or not, either existing or in process. If you have interest in such a committee, you can use that form above to send in your resume.

Capiche?

GA

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Originally Posted by Flyinglizard

Any engineer in the world can put the cars on a lift and pick out the BMW/Mini as not fitting the spirit of the class. The

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Um, so build a MINI............ Hit the easy button and win all the races.

Greg descibes it pretty well

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Um, so build a MINI............ Hit the easy button and win all the races.

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As a new series, I agree that it would be a shame if this becomes true. It will defeat a part of it's purpose and we'll quickly see manufacturers backing out. I do think the CRB will find a way to get relatively close parity here though.

Greg,Iknow how it works now, or doesnt work now.
The speed of adjustment is whats not going to make it with this class.
It will have to be a 20min correction, not a 3month correction time.
Each track will have different values for time @ speed, Average aero drag, lap times, max V,

Maybe the rule could be written to "auto correct".
I could do that.

I got into a big doing last year whenI called out the SMAC , for having vested interest. A guy called me a POS and should go eslewhere. Right .
I dont think that anyone running the class should be on or near the board ..


PS. I thought about the "auto correct" concept. it could work.. The rule has to be blind ,with out regard to car,Just lap times and results.
MM
MM

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Originally Posted by Flyinglizard

It will have to be a 20min correction, not a 3month correction time.

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That will never happen. This is SCCA Club Racing, not SCCA Pro Racing with a full-time employed staff to review and make on-the-fly adjustments. You will need to rely on - or be a part of - the committee(s) that will make their "best effort" to provide as equitable parity as the system allows.

If that doesn't work for you, then Club Racing won't work for you and the actively-managed "pro" series (and the big bucks that come with that active management) beckon for your business.

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Each track will have different values for time @ speed, Average aero drag, lap times, max V,

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Never happen, wholly unrealistic. Won't even happen in Pro.

Pick your best-average poison. You win some, you lose some. If you pick your average poison correctly, you win more than you lose. And in the end, that's-a what it's all about...

GA

Greg ,
The testing is very basic so far. 4 cars dont make a very complete test. There is no way that the weight s and plates should be valid for the whole year.

The class will die , as soon as the ringer is shown. The W & P must be a moving target within a few % pts., fo r at least the first year. The cars will get "Blueprinted" and pick up 10hp each in the first few races.
I went to PRI today to find out something. No news, very little info from anyone. SCCA has no idea who is ruuning it, Bad deal so far. Peter Keane was mentioned but he works with Irish Mikes and promotes the cars as a business. How can he run the deal , Total BS so far.
2 of 5 cars have the cages tabbed in like a ralley car. I figure that they will be grandfathered in.??
The only real way to run these is to chassis roll them, seal the ECU and engine . Other wise it will godown the SM road of 10hp for 10,000$.
MM

all i know if you want to run a plus 25K slow car, and have a shot at winning you better be a factory car, once you let the devel in 'he just dont leave with out your soul'

BTW who is it that is clammering to run the slowest class, is there a hole legion of guys who can afford to run and want to go slow

im sorry i just dont see the class, at least from a club and race partisipation increase satand point

I would happily roll slowly...snap rolls hurt.

On a serious note, this should succeed because it is the only class of car offering a modicum of IT prep for NEW and RELEVANT cars.

The fact that multiple sanctioning bodies are interested is a bonus.

Mike, don't get your panties in a bunch about these specific cars you've been seeing. Every one of them is a show car, not a prepped race car. I happen to know for a fact, first-hand, that at least one of them - and third-hand at least two others - were tossed at cage builders with conversation that went like this:

- "Hey, can you cage this car for me?"
- "Uh, sure. What's the rules."
- "None yet. Gonna be a show car."
- "Um, Ok. When do you need it?"
- "Sunday would be good. We're showing it at the Runoffs in two weeks."
- "Oh."

All these cars you're seeing were built prior to any rules package being developed, and their sole purpose is to show them at the Runoffs, at SEMA, at PRI, etc. So don't get too upset, you won't be seeing them race.

Mike, you gotta keep in mind you're in on the ground floor of something that is moving faster than ANYTHING I've ever seen in my decades-history of SCCA racing. This is an idea that has gone from napkin, to demonstration, to race series in MONTHS. Damn straight there's going to be some bumps in the road, man! I can fully understand you're wanting to jump on this bandwagon as a business, but you're hitching your horse to a bandwagon that has yet to be built! Hell, right now it's barely in the prototype stage! I'm sure I'm not the only one that raised a couple eyebrows to see you publicly post how you're offering rentals and builds for something that doesn't even yet exist...

I'm just saying here that I recommend you temper your apparent frustration a bit, keeping in mind that there's a lot of different interests pulling things a lot of different ways, and there's going to be change. A lot of change. Some of it may go the way you predict and plan for, but a whole helluva lot of it won't. Keep working for this category, as with all this manufacturer interest and support I think it will be a good place to play -- once the dust settles. But if you're looking for something established and consistent and predictable, then you may want to jump into Spec Miata for now and let B-Spec ferment a bit, otherwise you're gonna drive yourself absolutely batty...

Patience. It'll happen. But it won't happen tomorrow.

GA

I believe it can work.

It remains to be seen if the "multiple sanctioning bodies" idea nets out to be good or bad. It might serve to "dampen" rules changes, create gridlock, or be grounds for a schism but it certainly broadens the appeal.

And there IS going to be a conflict between the first principles that apply to a pro series, versus that for a club class. What Mike describes *might* work for a tightly managed pro game intent on making for good television (think BTCC) but it's certainly a non-starter for Club Racing.

There are some potentially good ideas that haven't been explored. If I were running the asylum, all of the cars would go into parc ferme after qualifying, and have their ECUs removed and put in manufacturer baskets for a blind draw and swap. (EDIT - don't invert the grid. Invert the ECUS in the cars on the grid!)

That black box is where most of the magic is going to happen, power-wise, and if the rules-makers can keep the lid on that, they'll be doing a lot.

K

I have a SM 1.6. That is why we have raced it in NASA. NOt SCCA due to the 99 cars being the only way . The NASA weights and plates have been adopted for SCCA this year and the car will be a reasonable in class again, IMHO.
The SM road is not a good road today ,IMHO. My engine is a known good value. It is "perfect" and within the rules. (As is the flyhweel, cam timing and entire car). The lack of control and cheaty cars have ruined the class. Mostly by rental shops that can remove the racer from the build values. Thus isolating the racer from any problems withe car legality.

The current fuel milage values , the strive for small cars that are fun to drive, the marketing value potential of this class should be addressed. Like I said, the drive away races that is a typical club race is a boring, non spectator parade event.
Face the facts. Even we dont watch the other races of that format. We do watch the SM races , the SRF race.Why? because shithappns.

I could sell TV time for this class, if I could run the format. The cars are slow. That allows a few things to happen. I have raced many cars/venues over the span of 30yrs . The best actual racing is the ice racing with 20cars, @ 50mph. And it makes a good spectator event due the all of the action .
The slower cars have a lot better cause /effect for very minor miscues. A little wide here, and a guy or two gets by . The Cup style stuff is very hard to pass . In a nutshell the wider the tires, the worst the racing .
No one will watch a parade of 80mph crap cans.

I totally agree withe ECU swap idea.
The inverted format does work well for the racing. ( short tracks use this method) The key may also be a 25# reward weight for the fast time , each session!! My PRO format will have the cars in a drafting ball, @ the end of the hour.
Yes it will have some rubbin, yes it will be controlled.
I could write it so that it is almost "auto correcting"
The Club racers should adopt the same weights and plates per pro specs @ 3 mon intervals
The old guard( and methods) @ SCCA needs to step away from this class to let it flourish.
If the corrections happen annually, there will be no second season.

Put me in charge, I'll make it happen..

RE, rentals. I hold the deposit checks until a date and car have been entered. I was hoping to have a car for the Feb 11 race @ Sebring. I have a few offers to buy a new Mazda 2 , just waiting for the word .
The cost will have to be $2000 or more plus a 15K crash bond. Sebring club race will be about 1600$ min.
MM

I was in World Challenge meetings and spoke with SCCA Pro at PRI.
Lots of talk regarding B spec, let me repeat LOTS of talk about B spec.
First, The cages in the Ford Fiesta, Kia and Mazda that are being shown are illegal and the builders know that. SCCA knows that too. Show cars and 1 1/2 builds the were done way before rules were set.
Second, WC is running 3 events with B spec in with TC. Each Saturday of the weekend will be two 30 minute races with a 5 stoppage in between. As it stands now, its hands off, no tire pressure, nothing. Then on Sunday a 40-45 minute race. Cool concept as that is 3 races in one weekend as to win contingency money. Also there was talk of contingency money not only paying 1st, 2nd 3rd in class but 1st chevy second etc.
Third, Tires are a Pirelli 195 15, at 252 each! Should be good for the whole weekend. Entry for a weekend is 2500.
Fourth, It has been brought up here and at PRI that no Pro licenses are allowed, that is absolutely incorrect as far as SCCA Pro is concerned. They will not have club racers in B spec cars racing against Pro drivers in TC. SCCA Pro said absolutely not during a Pro event will anything other than Pro licenses be allowed.
There is quite a bit of excitement going on about this class!!

The guy that runs Chevy racing powertrain , knows nothing about any $ for the B spec cars,. He is to get back to me. (Russ)

Honda ( Lee) has said the the $ will be the same for all of the players, $500 to win. All of the players are not in yet, thus the big ? mark as to viability for some of the cars.


A lot of non firm concept talk has gone on here. Lots of conflicting statements by guys, by people that are not in charge of anything!!

Find 3 people that are in charge of this deal?? post names.

The Bilstein shock package on the mazda/ford.. The Billy guy , in charge of the stuff for USA "has not done a shock package for anyone yet." (Bret Norgaard).

The entry pro fees have been stated as; "between 750 and 2500$"

"Grand Am is supposed to accept the cages as built and shown"
SCCA maybe not,not sure yet.

Some one ,must be trying to put the manufacturers on paper with $ commitments. No one seems to know who that is.

My take from( Fri) PRI is that; too many people may have some effect on this outcome, but no body can make it all happen.

The Pro license thing is a funny deal itself. You must have a new Pro tag this year. Never prior..
Still; the drive away race format, the slow correction rate, will not hold any audience, for a 80mph parade.

I will build car when the paper come out with solid #s. both pro and club.
Too approach the raceyness of the old "Renault Cup" would be a big deal and sell some TV time. No TV,no cash. No cash, no race.

" MM for BSAC"
Make it happen.

Convene the Sooper Committee!

K

I believe its actually pretty simple. There is a ruleset, published, in place. B spec is a club level class that is very similar to IT or SS. The cage rules are very simple.
It is now a case of some Pro venues, Grand Am and World Challenge wanting to showcase and allow a low dollar class to compete, on TV, with Pro cars. There area few manufacturers already driving the class. One thing that was stressed at WC meetings and by WC people is that the manufacturers are supporting but there will not Factory cars or teams. No "Free" cars was stated.
Entry fee for WC is their decision, Grand Am is up in the air as far as that goes.
What we know:There is a class this year, it is racing in club, it is racing in WC. There is some support/money from the manufacturers. There is money to be made for the manufacturers. Chrysler/Fiat is selling a finished racecar. ??? There will be differences from club/WC/ Grand Am. Lets race!

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Originally Posted by Knestis

Convene the Sooper Committee!

K

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If that fails, than we'll loose all the founding!!:blink:

I think that the measure of success for this class doesn't depend on tv time or any of that. I view this class as more of a stepping stone or a bridge from club racing to pro. a lot of talented club racing drivers will probably see success because of this class. there is no doubt in my mind that this class will succeed. if your measure of success is 10 year out tv coverage then I do not think it will be successful. I almost wish I didn't build my rx 8 and I built one of these!

Stephen.

Stephen, you totally made the right choice. $2,500 entry fee? Really? F-that. I find the whole Spec B thing confusing. One minute it's being touted as a great way to get started in racing, then next a step towards pro racing.