Hi Mike,
Sounds to me like ITX was set to run in Group 2 (with IT) and is now in Group 4. This will let the IT-street tire group run in both groups if they want to... double dippers welcomed. :)
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Hi Mike,
Sounds to me like ITX was set to run in Group 2 (with IT) and is now in Group 4. This will let the IT-street tire group run in both groups if they want to... double dippers welcomed. :)
Only "tricky" thing for your car is that it's not IT legal... you'll still only have ITX to run in. Unless there's an "ITJ" class running with IT?
PS
Probably wouldn't be able to make it that far for the weekend anyway. :(
BTW ive only run once with Steves region and man do those guys fit in a lot of tracktime!!
Steve tries to please every one possible. Great events!!!
I was already planning to get up to CMS to help at tech, but not to race. now that there's a good double-dip option for an ITB car (STL is not) I'll talk to the other TrackSpeed guys today, see if there's interest in splitting one or 2 of the cars in ITB/ITX on streets. plus the ECR or CCPS or ProIT or whatever is the long race. We might well be interested in this, and if so then Mike, we might be interested in borrowing a set of 205's for the X and "enduro" races. I was planning on buying some rivals anyhow, might just do that.
I got lost quick... Might be the heat and our long tow to Watkins Glen! What is ITX? A catch all for all IT cars with street tires?
Raymond
roughly equivalent to ITE - allows IT safety compliant cars that don't otherwise fit a class. so NASA spec classes, LeChumps, double dipping or modified IT cars, whatever.
run the IT race in class, run the ITX race to double dip, run the long race, too. up to 1h45m of RACE time total if you just do 1 day, and that's assuming a 45 min "long race". I'm not 100% sure of the format, Charlotte has a funny schedule due to the no race engines before noon on sundays rule.
Let's keep in touch. I'd love to bring my car if it works out. I may have 3 sets of streets mounted up - all 15x7 or 15x8, 4x100. Either way I'll do my best to get up there with a few sets of tires. It will be a good time meeting you and some of the other guys I've only met on the InterToobz
Mike, I plan to be there still but it's not looking good for me to drive. first, I'm in ITB and ITX is in the same run group, so no double dipping for me in the sprints. second, my would be co-driver is much more interested in the SIC and already has plans to attend the labor day weekend race at Barber, which should suit his car well, meaning he's tapped out at that time. third, my car hasn't been fully reassembled after a wreck in feb, it's close, but with basically 3 weekends and the rest of "life" it's not looking promising, and if I do get it done, it will have no testing. 4th, I'm kinda broke. especially without my codriver, that's a big towing cost for a guy in orlando.
but I still think it's great what the CCR is doing, and will be there to help out in Tech.
Understand completely. Ill plan to be there if anyone want to try street tires and mine will fit - I'll quite happily lend them out to any IT car that wants to try streets in ITX.
I may bring my car but budget may get in the way too. I've already budgeted out the rest of this years schedule which includes a 14 hour & a 15 hours race, so would have to steal $$ from things like my two college going kids. Or food for me which would not be a bad thing...
On a side note - ran into the head guy of a local LeMons team today that runs an Integra. I ran the idea of running SCCA Sprint races by him and his eyes got big. They switched to the Integra this year with the thought of finding a place to go sprint racing - probably NASA. I'll be sending him info on how to get his drivers SCCA comp licenses so maybe next year they will come out and play.
ITX is a catch all to some extent, but intended to give PCA, BMW, and other spec series a place where they can run in SCCA. Keep in mind that group 4 at CMS has everything from ITB to SPU and cars need to fit in that speed and weight range. We are giving you a chance to run your "similar to IT" cars in a class so you get to see if you like sprint racing. We will not stick some high powered camero, etc in with this group and screw up their racing, so use some judgement. Entries seen as outside IT parameters will be rejected. ITX will be required to run DOT tires. No slicks.
As Chip mentioned it also gives you a place to double dip all IT classes. Some drivers are coming from a long distance away and are sharing the car to cut expenses. You are our customers and we will work with you as much as we can.
Ok, Thanks for the info. It's great you guys are doing that for your region and I love the fact that people can bring IT "like" cars and all run together!
Back on topic though... Street Tires in IT! I was not on my game today so the lap times from qualifying don't come close to a comparison with my brother IMO. However I can say that yes, the street tires are a blast to run on and are safe/easy to drive. I can also say in sprint racing format a street tire will never compete with an r compound tire. I personally think at this point if you really want street tire races (fully support te idea) you need to have some structured classes for people to run in. You will never get people off that purple crack... It is very hard for me to resist the temptation tonight but I really want to give the tires am honest shot in a race and it is a great equalizer against my dads ITS Porsche ( we qualified .03 from each other!).
Will report back tomorrow night!
Raymond
Ok... Today was a much better test of used race tires vs street tires on a heavy (3,000lb) ITR car. On the street tires (Dunlop Direzza ZII) I got down to a 2:18.2. Stephen ran a few hours later and got down to a 2:15.4 on Hoosiers.
I will say that at the 1.18's I did quickly overheat the tires causing the car to get very loose. Ended up spinning in the carosel (after the bus stop full speed) That left several feet of black rubber on the pavement as smoke quickly filled the air... When I pulled away I expected some major thud thud thud noises from flat spotted tires but much to my surprise nothing... The tires continued to perform as if nothing happened in acceleration, turning and braking. So yet another reason the tires can be a good thing: you can mess up badly and still not destroy these tires!
I finished 10th overall in a 30 mixed car field (even with a spin) and had a blast doing it. In the regional (non ProIT) I would have probably finished mid/back pack. However, I (and you) would not have a chance at fighting for a sprint race win on them. Because of that, most people will only last so long doing "what if" before they get r compound tires.
I still really think to be successfull we need to set up a seperate race group for double dipping on street tires... It worked with SM and while it might not work for all IT classes it would be a good intro race group for those getting into SCCA, those racing on a budget, or those teams with multiple drivers sharing a car.
Raymond
I personally think it doesn't have anything to do with the question of "street tires in IT" but I'm curious about the differential you saw between the Dunlops and Hoosiers on the same day - accepting of course that on any given day one bro or the other might be more "on."
K
Kirk-
I think we were both "on" yesterday... I do not think Stephen would have been faster than I was if he was running on the Dunlop’s and I don't think that I would have been faster than him if I were on the Hoosiers. Stephen turned his personal best lap times I think. He was NOT on brand new Hoosiers so a little more might be gained for a session or two if you went out and purchased new tires. I also wasn't on brand new Dunlop’s either but I really don't think that would gain me anything if I was, from what we have found the tires perform the same no matter how many heat cycles or time on them (that is one of the best parts about the tires!)
My fast times on the Dunlop’s were when I was chasing down the 9th overall car (I really wanted that position). After two consecutive 2:18's the car became very loose and I ended up spinning. After continuing the car was still loose for a few turns so I backed off a little and took it easy for the rest of that lap (almost felt like a tire going down). After getting my confidence back and letting the tires cool down I was able to get right back to race speed and hold on to the 10th overall position. Comparing this to the Devil, the times were similar to our team’s fast laps (faster than most of the SM cars). I think for our set-up I should be able to run consistent 2:19’s without overworking the tires (I would probably run 2:16’s with the “r” compound).
I think everyone’s estimate of 2 – 3 seconds a lap slower is a good estimate. Heavier cars and those with more horsepower will probably see the biggest drop in lap times and obviously the longer the track the further off “per lap” your pace will be (remember at the glen we are talking average IT lap times around 2:20 or so...). Also the tracks and cars that demand carrying more speed through the turns (like the Glen) might see a bigger loss as well.
To me, I love the tires and will likely always race a “real” enduro on them (It just doesn’t make sense not to). For races short enough where you can run an “r” compound without doing a tire swap it will be hard for people to resist the temptation of the faster tire… unless they don’t have the budget for tires and don’t have access to any used ones. The street tire is just as much fun to race on but I think it would be nearly impossible to get everyone to change over without a rule (kudo’s to the IT7 crowd up here in the Northeast!). Unfortunately I think that making a tire rule for IT would hurt our class as some of the higher end teams/drivers that “raise the bar” would IMO likely look elsewhere to race.
Raymond
PS: The Glen isn’t our home track so we could be faster with more time but I am confident in all of the data as it is based on two experienced drivers both with experience at the track (Average of 1-2 races per year at the track). I would say that for the average front runner the data is spot on.
Don't forget that the car is (or should have been) optimized for a much stickier tire.
Certainly there are some gains to be had from setting the car up for the 200 tires.
It's too bad we can't turn the clock back in IT including going to the 200 TW tires.
Unfortunately there's too much to unwind. In 1984 the ITB lap record at Limerock was 1:07! and the Rabbit that did it was reputedly illegal and I was on used 944 street takeoffs trying to hang on and not get lapped-but I was having fun! That winter I "actually" prepped the car and put some real race rate springs and shocks on, alignment, corner weight, and converted to 142"E" spec with fuel injection. I remember running the 1st iteration Yokohama 008 tires on the Volvo with rubber bushings everywhere that season. I ran 12 races on 5 008s and set lap records the last 2 races. I drove everywhere on the tires too!
I don't see how the class can be "re-invented" but it sure would be great if it could.
It's almost like there needs to be a clean sheet of paper and a new set of classes, but that would be a bad plan.
I hate to say it because I treasure my years with SCCA, but some of these other series rhyme with Improved Touring as it existed in the beginning. Tires have come so far that I felt it necessary to magna flux the Volvo and A2 steering knuckles in the off-season lest one fail on track.
You know, the first time I raced the Volvo, we threw a MGB roll-bar in it to run an EMRA night relay race at Pocono. I knew something was wrong when I had more fun in my street car on 165x15 Contis than driving a well prepared FP Sprite! Fun is Fun no matter what the speed!
That's good info, Raymond. Thanks!
K
Approximately three seconds to the Ho Hos over 200TW street tires, old ho hos at that, is a huge margin. And it could even be more with new ho hos. Sort of pops that "200TW are almost as good as ho ho" balloon.
I believe we'll be getting some more data from Jeff Young at CMS; one driver, one car. He's got some new 200TW tires coming that he'll run against his normal purple crack. CMS isn't a handling course, so if there is a difference between the tires at CMS then we'll be reasonably sure the difference is real and not a testing artifact.
Intersting. Three seconds on a 2 minute-ish course is alot. I wonder if the Rivals would be closer? I pciked up over 1 second at Road Atlanta going from 205/15 Dunlop ZIIs to 225/15 Rivals, and did a stint at Daytona where I started on the Dunlops and changed tires to the Rivals mid stint. In this case the Rivals were 1.5 seconds faster on a 2:27-ish lap.
I wonder if the difference would be less on a lighter car? My MX-3 is ~2350 with me in the seat.
I'd love to try a set of HoHos on my LeChump MX-3 as it is running 1:47.2 at RA in the heat on the Rivals which was about 2.5 seconds off of the fast Spec Miata guys that weekend.
Differences will be less on lighter low hp cars. Think about it: At Lime Rock, ITC and ITB cars are often flat from the left hander all the way thru the uphill, thru westbend and even down the downhill. They have cornering capability to spare. Even a lesser compound tire could be flat and lap times would barely be affected. An ITS car though, has to brake or lift at all those turns, and will have to even more on lesser tires.
Thats why, when I was suggesting a percentage weight break as a 'reward" for using 200TW tires, I said it would be dependent upon the class....small amounts for lower classes to higher amounts for ITS and ITR.
Even then of course, it is STILL track and car dependent. Of course, our standard deviation of weight accuracy isn't perfect, so at some point you have to pick a number and say "close enough".
The 3 second difference at the long course at the Glen suggests a 1.3 or so difference at a short course like Lime Rock. (one data point)
"Three seconds on a 2 minute-ish course" is not much faster for a lot more money. It would be great if you guys could work something out to make street tires competitive.
I think that the weight penalty is a great idea. It is certainly not a perfect solution, but in multi-class multi-car racing nothing is. Start by getting a conservative weight penalty system in place and optimizing it with time.
The ability to run street thread in NASA PT classes has always appealed to me, but there is no point without participation.
The answer I support will NOT include weight penalties or breaks. Street tires are NOT being looked at to become the law of the land in IT, and I see NO reason to support any sort of rule change or adjustment to accommodate them. they are already allowed to be run and with enough support we can build inter-series championships. the time delta to the Hoosiers is nothing but a data point. it's not large enough to make sharing the track unsafe, but is significant enough to separate those who want to run lower cost cars and those who want to win in the current system.
And I think that is a good thing.
The attraction to the 200TW tires, when voluntary, is mostly to those who want the fun of racing, but don't have the time, energy, money, or desire to develop the car to the degree necessary to win in top IT fields, carry 3-4 sets of tires, etc... this means that those who elect to run such tires will largely be those who are ok with leaving a few HP on the table from that super custom headers and the like, who show up to have fun, and will be rewarded by running a group of like minded racers.
This is good to hear. The original requests started out as "can we get a place to run in the SCCA for Chump cars" and then within hours or days started to evolve into trying to achieve parity for IT cars on race tires and 200TW tires. That should never be a goal of this exercise and if the Chump folks that want to come try the SCCA are going to push it then we should stop now. We'll never be able to properly balance multimarque IT-racing if we pile the additional challenge of different tires and weight compensations into the mix.
I'm good with this. From a "the worlds revolves around me" perspective" it would be nice like if Street Tires be allowed to run any rim width. The reasons this is appealing is:
1) I can leagally run my 15X8 LeChump wheels & tires on the used IT car that I will buy soon. HOnestly I will run them anyway any hopefully no one will get to butt-hurt about "Cheating" by running street tires on slightly wider wheels.
2) It does throw a minor performance bone to the folks that want to run street tires. FWIW new 13lb 15x8 wheels can be had for ~$100/wheel.
I would be shocked if a street tires car on slightly wider wheels still wasn't approcaibly slower than when running Hoosiers
I think the present ITAC has its head screwed on straight and will give these guys a place to run but won't recommend changing the rules to give weight breaks, etc.
I'm all for the "place to run/let them try SCCA racing" fix.
One quick response to Tom: IF you made these the only tires you could run in IT, I can almost guarantee you the cost savings evaporate. People will shave, they will throw them away faster and the manufacturers will compete to make stickier, and shorter lasting compounds.
It's happened every time in every other series that tried something similar and it will happen here as well.
Mike, seriously, you're a good dude, but its ALWAYS a slippery slope with rules changes in a race series. Always. You've got enough autox experience to know how that works. You make one allowance that one group of cars get and the others don't and the next thing you know BOTH sides are asking for more.
What gets missed in a lot of this discussion is that the primary attractiveness of IT over the years has been stability. Rules stability. We had a lot of upheaval, necessary in my view, over the last few years and now we need some stability for a LONG time in my view.
We had a lot of upheaval, necessary in my view, over the last few years and now we need some stability for a LONG time in my view
Best quote in years!!
Nobody is going to be "butt-hurt" over you running a wider wheel than legal. Until you start beating people, and frankly I don't think that will be happening on street tires.
What wheel pattern are you running? There are lots of 15x7s out there for $100 a wheel and less. If you happen to have the 114.3 x 5 the world is your oyster - there are light (14 lb) stock V6 Mustang wheels all over the place that can be had for free. If it is the Miata pattern then you can buy used Miata wheels all day long for well under $100 each, lightweight racey wheels too!
This, but also, we can make a SINGLE exception within the inter-series race within a race construct and NOT the IT rules as in the GCR, to allow larger width and diameter wheels so long as the tire section width is maintained at or below some prescribed, per-class maximum. we've discussed this already.
Just something that I think that I need to address/ask.
I have heard often people on the ITAC say that the big attraction to IT is rules stability. Now that I am an IT racer I do like rules stability, however when I was deciding on what car to build This idea never came up. I assisted my closest racing friend with his ITA, ITS, and FP Hondas (The FP car being the most fun to drive and actually the most reliable for the most part.)
What attracted me to IT was at the time the current class sizes and the idea of cheaper racing. Touring and SS at the time required new cars so that is a big hit just for the car before you start tinkering. Prod Prep level 1 was out of my price range and prep level 2 (later Limited prep I believe) was cheaper but I saw there were still getting dominated at regional and national by older Level 1 prep cars (at the time).
I went to IT because it allowed the cheapest way into racing, community is good, class sizes were good, and alot of options. It wasn't till after I was a racer that I realized the rules and stability (for better or worse). I remember When the RX-8 was classed and steve E. did a lot more than should be required to try to get the car classed correctly and seemed to but his head against the wall for the longest time. I talked people on each governing board (BOD, CRB, and 3 different chairs on the ITAC) to try to correct, in theory, simple problem with my car.
I stay racing IT because I like the people and I was not a fan of national racing, and I like the idea that the rules are stable. I dislike the politics and the still a little sour over the effort I had to go through to fix a car compared to other cars that were fixed.
I guess it depends on the definition of attraction. For me attraction was what got me started in IT. At least for me it had nothing to do with stability. However, now that I am a member I think stability is a good thing. Though I think Stagnant is a bad thing and a perfect way to also kill a class. This may be different for you, but at least for the younger crowd that I come from that is what I was looking at. I did not dig up history, or go ask what other IT racers, etc..
I don't think anyone ever said that 200s are "almost as good as Hoosiers," in the sense that they would be competitive head-to-head. That's why I prefaced my question to Raymond with the qualifier that I don't think the difference is even germane to the conversation about the role "street tires" might play in all of this...
I do think that the popular opinion has been that they don't suck so much - qualitatively - that they would be simply awful to use on an IT car. That's a sidebar to the other conversation(s) about entry-level racing, integration of LeChump, and other big topics.
Trying to fold street tires into the existing nationwide IT rule set is a HORRIBLE idea. It shouldn't even be considered. Re: the ITAC "making a place for these guys a place to run," they SHOULD DO NOTHING.
It's already allowed to run them. People who want to do so can. Viola! Place to play offered. Under certain circumstances I might do it today - low-powered car, enduros, multipurpose racer not optimized for pointy-end IT running (a la Pablo I)...
If someone wants to start a class-within-a-class or do a gentleman's agreement or whatever, that should happen at the regional level. The ITAC should monitor such efforts with interest but should not have any official role in decisions or plans.
K
When I started out we had a set of Toyo's for track time, intermediate rain, etc. Then we had a set of Hoosiers for the important stuff. In the ECR series we all ran Toyo just for longevity. That has not changed, and the Rival seems to be a good tire for that. Mount a set and come play.
Hummm.... Caught up on some sleep!!!
Some points to make from all the discussions... Comparing my brother on race tires and Me on street tires is like comparing a field of SM cars with generally equal drivers, all is basically equal. It's good data but you can easily miss something... in IT, not all is equal. The cars are drastically different as are the drivers. You can easily make performance modifications with the savings from running street tires your first couple years that will easily gain you more time than tires. For example a FWD car should choose a diff LONG before tires if you race at NHMS.
Stephens fast lap times were faster than the car that won the ITR race and the overall winner (way to fast lap record breaking ITS car). I think he had the third fastest lap... And it was an average field of 8 ITR cars and 30 something other cars. My fast lap times would have put me in the hunt for a 5th place finish in the class (5th place normal mid to front pack car turned a lap time about .2seconds faster than me). My point is that In a more "rounded" class I could have easily competed mid pack in class (you have to admit in the northeast most ITR cars are well built front runners)
No SCCA shouldn't change the rules, it would turn away some drivers who wouldn't ever think of racing on non-race tires... To some it's like running mufflers ;)
Yes- people should not be afraid to run on street tires... It is just as much fun and you can do other mods to improve your car or you driving to still be able to compete mid pack. Once you reach that point get the sticky stuff and see what you can do but realize you might not go back!
Yes- SCCA should have a group built into at least some weekends that includes crossover cars and IT type cars ALL on street tires. It's an opportunity for newbies to affordably race for the front against new friends and others to double dip on a budget.
Yes- EVERY top dog racer should have some Dunlops for an intermediate tire and enduros!
Raymond "hope this adds more good value/points to the discussion" Blethen
great conversation guys
making me really think of going to 15x7's and rivals next year
the used tire market with 14'' stuff is tough to come by
Yes!!!!
There shouldnt be rules changes to accomodate street tires......... If there is a 3 second difference at Watkins Glen between 200's and Hoosiers, that's awesome in my eyes. In most IT class you may not be running in the top half, but you will be racing!!! (and being off by 3 seconds at WGI and 1 second at Lime Rock will not make you last in any IT class.) Don't use the excuse you can't afford Hoosiers so the rules should be changed. Run 200's and go have fun!!! Do NOT use tire expense as an excuse as to why you can't race.............
You wanna be competitive?? It's gonna be more than just an expensive tire bill to make you a regional champion in most regions. Ask any of the guys who have won championships how much money they spent on developement, testing, dyno time, etc.
Racing is an expensive sport. There is no getting around that but it can be done very inexpensively. I think my first season with my old GTi, running on Kumho's, i spent a total for the season (tires, motel, entry fees, repairs) about $5,500.
I would love to cut my tire bill by 75%. I'm all for giving Chump cars a place to play. I'm all for guys running 200's......................... but changing the rules to make them more competitive??? Nooooooooooooooooo. You wanna run up front you gotta drop the coin!!!