Fine, but who proposed it? That is often, if not always, included in FasTrack.
Let's keep it simple: Is this another case of SFI executives/dealers proposing SCCA force members to buy more SFI stuff?
Printable View
Fine, but who proposed it? That is often, if not always, included in FasTrack.
Let's keep it simple: Is this another case of SFI executives/dealers proposing SCCA force members to buy more SFI stuff?
Wow,
All I can say is that If I have to replace my one year old suit because of a nonsensical wording issue with the rules, I will cut up my scca membership and go run with the other crowd.
Its no wonder theres hardly anyone my age running with the scca. (26)
Us "youngsters" arent interested in politics, only racing.
Yeah, well, you'd think it'd be a :018: to not outlaw perfectly fine fire suits overnight because the club has gotten into bed with an organization.Quote:
I think alot of us were thinking something similar. I have an old racequip suit with an SFI patch on it too... :018:
db
[/b]
And you are actually a young one! When I look around the paddock at the ripe age of 38 I know that I'm sometimes one of the younger guys around. Not good for the SCCA.Quote:
Wow,
All I can say is that If I have to replace my one year old suit because of a nonsensical wording issue with the rules, I will cut up my scca membership and go run with the other crowd.
Its no wonder theres hardly anyone my age running with the scca. (26)
Us "youngsters" arent interested in politics, only racing.
[/b]
I believe the ebay search of "cheap used race suit with easily removed SFI label stitched on" may become very popular.... :(
Nah...Just get Ron's HK knockoff patches!!!Quote:
I believe the ebay search of "cheap used race suit with easily removed SFI label stitched on" may become very popular.... :(
[/b]
While I think the new rule incredibly ill advised, upon advice of his legal counsel, there will be no Earp Knock Off patches.
So it doesn't have a FIA cert on it either?Quote:
When it is an OMP three layer suit conforming to FIA (WORLD STANDARDS, I CAN USE IT EVERYWHERE TO RACE, BUT NOT SCCA) standard that are higher than the SFI standards.
Ron [/b]
andy stop playing stupid... OMP suits are FIA approved. Within the last couple years they went from the 1986 spec to the 2000 spec so you won't find them on the Internet still for sale with the 1986 spec... But many of us budgeted racers that feel safety is important and bought an expensive suite a few years ago now find ourselves yet again throwing away more safe equipment that we cannot afford to replace. Many of these suites do exist without SFI flameproof patches. I have no idea where it can be proven that the suite is safer than some $100.00 piece of crap suit but I bet it can be proven if it needs to be.. I have e-mailed Bob Introne, and I am sure as the head of the BOD and as my area rep that he will get back to me. Let's hope this gets resolved before more members get turned off from SCCA.
Raymond
Ray, settle down. Andy's not being stupid, he's asking (me and Ron) a question - what FIA cert does the OMP suit (I used to have a Trend, Ron does now) carry?
The rule allows for the SFI cert AND one FIA cert. I believe -- Andy correct me if I am wrong -- Andy was simply asking if the OMP suit carries the allowed FIA cert and is, ergo, legal.
I'm going to check mine now.
They are now 8856-2000... A few years ago they were 1986/1986. I am guessing that was probably the maximum FIA spec at the time. Anyone know when the specs were changed with FIA?
2001
Raymond, here's the rule:
All suits shall bear an SFI 3.2A/1 or higher certification label or FIA 8856-2000 homologation.
My OMP Trend was manufactured in 2002 and carries teh FIA 8856-2000 homologation. While I have replaced it with a newer SFI rated Sparco, it would be good to go this year...but for the hole in the ass.
Raymond, your suit -- what FIA cert does it carry?
Maybe the sky is not falling.
mine is a FIA NORME 1986/1986... I think that you will find it is what most people whom have the issue have.
It looks like the FIA made it a regulation on 6/30/05 when I do a search of the regulations on the FIA website. I can not fing any info on the 1986/1986 requirements. What I really think is important is to find the actual data on the different specs. Bob and or the CRB has to have them if they made the rule and I am sure that they will share the specs... I will e-mail them rather than search for hours and come up emptyhanded....
It also appears most pro racing overseas requires the new spec while amature series allow what I have...
Raymond
Raymond,
The 6/30/05 date is the date that the current spec was last revised. You can look at the spec and the changes are in bold.
Matt Rowe, said "2001"....not sure how he knows that but the "2000" suffix in the spec would imply that the spec was drafted in 2000. Perhaps the suits became available in 2001.
I have an expensive OMP suit that was manufactured in 2003 it carries the 2000 spec. F--- the SFI, as long as I continue to have the option I will avoid buying products that bear the SFI label.
On another note, you asked in an earilier post on this thread what organization I race with. I race with VARA. Unfortunately (for you) all their events are in California, Nevada and Arizona. They are a Vintage racing group, but not your stereotypical parade, cars are the stars group. They have real wheel to wheel racing. Some run groups are a little more in the vintage spirit with the safety bubble stuff, but only because their cars are almost irreplaceable. The remaining 75% of the run groups are as competitive as anyone else. I'd go as far to say that anyone looking to race competitively in So-Cal with a vintage legal car that is racing with the SCCA is nuts for doing so. NorPac and SFR seem to have a good program with plenty of competition--Cal Club and SoPac, not so much....sure there are exceptions but not many, that is why they are exceptions. If I offend any of the Cal Club or SoPac racers I am sure you are the exception :D Seriously, any Cal Club or SoPac guys think they are going to come out and beat up on bunch of vintage racers come on out. I've got a cold beer and a good battle for you. #66 FProduction.
I got my Sparco in 2003 or 2004 , and it carries the FIA 2000 patch (along with an SFI/5 patch)
If the change over occured as Matt states in 2001, it is possible that the suits carrying the FIA portion of the "Or" part of the rule are all 5 years old, or older.
Okay, finally got back to the race trailer so I can see what I have.
I've got an OMP suit with FIA Certification sewn directly to the collar. IT reads:
"Standard 8856-2000"
RS.004.01
Year of Manufacture 2004
Geez Ray! Just trying to figure out if your FIA cert meets the current rule...
So really what we are talking about here is essentially "outlawing" suits with an FIA rating standard that is more than 21 years old (the 1986 standard), but allowing one that applies to all suits seven years or less old?
What's the shelf life on a suit anyway? I would suspect after time (mine did, although I didn't take that good care of it) you would want to replace the thing anyway due to wear, failing seems, etc.
I'm not so sure the sky is falling..........
Which is not very old for a well cared for suit (and Jake I am not saying you said it was). It is somewhat important to remember that a lot of SCCA drivers only race 2-4 weekends a year.Quote:
I got my Sparco in 2003 or 2004 , and it carries the FIA 2000 patch (along with an SFI/5 patch)
If the change over occured as Matt states in 2001, it is possible that the suits carrying the FIA portion of the "Or" part of the rule are all 5 years old, or older.
[/b]
We have rules to stop poorly cared for suits from being used, the age alone should not be a major factor unless they can show us where performance standards have had a massive change.
I think what annoys me the most is I know of no problem that been caused by suits with no documentation.
I think a key point you dudes are overlooking is NOT whether new stuff is certified; I think you'll find most, if not all, new stuff is either FIA or SFI certified (though I have no doubt there are exceptions).
The REAL point here is that there are a lot of folks, especially first-timers and old-timers, that show up with old(er) fire protections suits, many made prior to these regulations. Trust me: I get to see a lot of these during annual inspections, and I'd estimate that a good 50% or more of the club racers out there are not using pretty new shiny Sparco, OMP, or G-Force suits, instead choosing to use standard undies and older Nomex/Prothane/etc fire protection. Up through 10.31.07 these suits were perfectly legal to use, but with a stroke of the pen today they're all not.
What this means is that a significant portion of the SCCA Club Racing community is now going to have to spend money on fire protection that may or may not be as good as what they had.
Or, more importantly, maybe they won't... - GA
A suit should easily last seven years with good care, no doubt. Good care means not working on the car in it, cleaning it every weekend, etc. Yours lasted four plus years with brutal treatment - so seven plus years should be no problem with care.Quote:
What's the shelf life on a suit anyway? I would suspect after time (mine did, although I didn't take that good care of it) you would want to replace the thing anyway due to wear, failing seems, etc.
[/b]
Regardless it basically seems unfair that guys were perfectly legal throughout 2007 and will now be deemed illegal. And illegal based not on logical data, but illegal based on SCCA/Vendor relationships that don't have the safety of the racers as top priority, or doesn't appear to if the SFI specs are more lax than the FIA specs.
Ron
As Jake eluded to earlier, we have an ITAC call tonight and I will make sure we get any info we can from the CRB and publish it here.
Thanks Andy, much appreciated by all I'm sure.
Ron
My "3.5-layer" Design 500 suit is 20 years old and is in essentially perfect condition.
I took a long sabbatical in there of course but Nomex and related aramid fibers are pretty tough and do NOT lose any of their fire/heat resistant qualities unless severely degraded by UV light. Structural integrity is another issue of course - you could mechanically wear through or blow a seam, even with normal use, if you race a LOT. Wash your suit in warm water and don't hang it in the sun.
Maybe we need to revisit the RICO idea. This SFI thing pisses me off even more, every time it raises its ugly head.
K
If the old ones still work, and meet acceptable standards, then this is silly. Let me know what I can do to help get it changed.
Here's a thought: Let's do a little science. Let's compare the performance of old suits to new suits. Seriously, don't throw the old ones out. I have no idea what the test protocols are, but it should not be that difficult to conduct the same test on two suits that vary only by age.Quote:
If the old ones still work, and meet acceptable standards, then this is silly. Let me know what I can do to help get it changed.
[/b]
If this page weren't empty, SCCA may have another option: http://www.racingsafetyinstitute.org/Suits.html
We can either complain about it or do something about it.
Material testing for fire resistance is easy; I had to do it some years ago for some automotive fabrics and vinyls I used in the interior of my airplane. Cost is low, too. Without going into FAA definitions here (which are as clumsy as SCCA's), I wrote a full article on the experience:Quote:
Let's compare the performance of old suits to new suits.[/b]
http://www.avweb.com/news/maint/182839-1.html
It seems to me there is some confusion about the dates on the FIA certification. Mine is the 1986 date and I purchased this suit from a Sparco dealer in 1998. A full 12 years after the standard was set. Now the newer suits marked 2000 have a date 18 years different but many of these suits are nowhere near that age. My suit is going on 10 years old and while a bit snugger than when I bought it you can not tell one bit that it is that age. If it did not have a couple patches you could not tell its used. Taking very good care of it and a seriously reduced number of outings in the last several years while always cleaning it after races are what works for me. Its nuts that ths suit is "bad" while a single layer suit can be marked "good" just because of a label. I've seen more oil soaked nasty single layer suits that you can see thru get raced and usually without the underwear. I just can't fathom this.
And remember next year everybody will need to buy a SFI rated fire system per the new rules as well. I guess I can throw out my plumbed halon system. Maybe SCCA just wants us to throw out our cars too......
db
I'll donate my oldish (2002) OMP with FIA 2000 cert for testing. Let me know.
...and I've got my very first driver's suit, one that was loaned to me over 20 years ago, made of FPT Linea Sport. I'd hate to cut it up; it's still in almost-new shape, but it's of no value in the back of the closet, and it would be interesting to see how something so old stacks up against the current crop of SFI-certified materials... - GAQuote:
I'll donate my oldish (2002) OMP with FIA 2000 cert for testing. Let me know.[/b]
A bit out of my realm here, Greg, but isn't there some generalized bottom line measure called TPP? It seems like the reasonable thing to do is mandate suits that meet a particular TPP level of protection, and just have the manufacturer certify that level of performance, rather than branch off into FIA/SFI labeling.
Not and old-vs-new issue I know, but this whole thing sounds far more complicated than it need be.
Gregg, I know absolutely nothing about firesuit certification, so I bow to your dealing-with-industry-certification greatness... ;)
Ha! We're all going down in flames now. :)Quote:
Gregg, I know absolutely nothing about firesuit certification, so I bow to your dealing-with-industry-certification greatness... ;)
[/b]
Hmm. Not a bad start: Clickity-click
It's pretty amazing that every vender that sells OMP, finds it absolutely hysterical the choice scca has made. I have a few of them trying to get me the documentation for the 1986 spec line as far as burn transfer rates and such. scca, where busines comes before safety
"The rules for 2008 require a suit carrying an SFI 3.2A/1 or FIA 8856-2000 certification. The SCCA is not in a position to conduct their own suit testing so I am unable to comment on the performance of specific suits and/or materials. I have forwarded your input to the Club Racing Board."
Jeremy
this is what I received from Jeremy Thoennes and John Bauer... at least he replied, but abviously their reasoning is not for safety but sadly for business.....
Let's not go overboard and do the proverbial "throwing of the baby out w/ the bath water". The main problem here, as i see it, is that the new rules have very specifically eliminated the 1986 FIA cert. So, all that is really needed is a determination of whether the 1986 cert is still valid, and if so reinstate it.
Does anyone know the reasoning of why it was eliminated?
Edit: I just did a quick search, and there appears to be very little information on the web about the "FIA 8856-1986" standard. Also, it appears all the good stuff on the FIA Institutes web site are under the "private area". Anyone have access?
As Kirk kind of pointed out...aramid fibers don't lose their effectiveness over time like the chemical treated fabrics (Proban for example). When new, both a proban suit and nomex suit might carry the same sfi patch, but their ability to perform over time versus each other are not linear.
Kirks' 20-ish year old suit (given it's construction materials) will perform better than a brand new off the shelf SFI 3.2A/5 suit with a TPP rating of 19. It may not be as light or comfortable but it will protect.
I'd be MUCH happier with a rule that required SFI3.2A/5 or better, FIA 1986 or 2000 rating as a MINIMUM with fire retardant underwear as mandatory. No chemically treated fabrics allowed unless date of manufacture can be proven to be less than 5 years old. Protect the ignorant from themselves and let the rest of us make good choices. Kind of like the ISAAC situation :D
Did I miss something, I don't recall reading that. I hope that is tongue in cheek and I didn't miss that in Fastrack.Quote:
And remember next year everybody will need to buy a SFI rated fire system per the new rules as well. I guess I can throw out my plumbed halon system. Maybe SCCA just wants us to throw out our cars too......
db
[/b]
And actually if you want to read the exact way the end of the rule is written:
"Underwear of fire resistant material shall be used except with suits carrying FIA standards of 8856-1986 or 8856-2000 or SFI 3-2A/5 or higher (e.g., /10, /15, /20) Certification Patch."
Unless I missed it already, this would mean I CANNOT wear underwear because my suit is 3-2A/5 (tongue firmly in cheek). :blink:
I *think* Item 2 of the Fastrack is basically grandfathering in all existing systems, including hand held bottles. It states that cars registered after 1/1/09 shall comply.Quote:
Did I miss something, I don't recall reading that. I hope that is tongue in cheek and I didn't miss that in Fastrack.
[/b]
Did I miss where hand-helds are no longer legal?
Not so fast there, Speed. More drivers are likely to be impacted by this because they are using older but still completely serviceable Nomex, PBI, or other suits that don't have any SFI or FIA certification, than are likely to get trapped with only 1986 FIA-spec suits.Quote:
Let's not go overboard and do the proverbial "throwing of the baby out w/ the bath water". The main problem here, as i see it, is that the new rules have very specifically eliminated the 1986 FIA cert. ...[/b]
K
Right, but if you don't put a spec on the suits what requires a suit to be fireproof? And by that I mean new suits as well. Under the current rule you could go out and make your own suit and as long as you use the right material you can use it. even though it may fall apart in a fire.Quote:
Not so fast there, Speed. More drivers are likely to be impacted by this because they are using older but still completely serviceable Nomex, PBI, or other suits that don't have any SFI or FIA certification, than are likely to get trapped with only 1986 FIA-spec suits.[/b]
The entire point of having an SFI or FIA cert on the suit is to demonstrate the suit has been tested. I dislike the SFI "process" as much as the next guy but in this case requiring some testing seems like a good thing to me.