that is funny. A friend of mine who runs Spec Racer at the Glen where they run together refers to that inevitable mid race full course yellow as British Half Time.
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Smarty gives away used tires for free...period. Maybe beer if he doesn't like you. He has to pay to load, unload, and discard them.
The only times I've seen him charge for tires is when the Spec Miata "high-falutin' crowd" decides that three heat cycles are enough to completely destroy Hoosiers. And that's very, very, very rare in Regional racing (all he covers). - GA
Edit: Smarty's favorite event is the Fall one where all the Cub Scouts come down from the mountain and want a free race tire. He's all about making those go away....free.
I know, I just didn't want to post "for" him. I think we should let people know they could potentially get free ones so they can give racing tires a try. Used or not they will still see (lap times) and feel a difference.
Stephen
i too think that the potential of using "race" tires is a good thing. let them see how much more fun/competitive R tires can be if they want.
i applaud the effort of getting non SCCA types SCCA licenses and running with at SCCA events. if they try purple crack and get hooked, so much the better.
"IT‐EZ competition is designed as a “fun run” class, without any promise of intent of performance equitability."
Run on Snow tires! No one cares!:shrug:
My best un educated guess is.
Lime Rock in a used IT7 car that he found under a rock. He will sel the Miata and pocket 10,000 Pesos in the deal.
Or he might show up at Thompson.
Only the Shadow Knows
GA, please explain the logic of ; inviting a successful class to come and race with SCCA and then changing one costly parameter of that class, one that is a large part responsible for that success.
Copy success, dont EFit up.
I see no reason to repeat past mistakes. Keep it simple and cheap.
The R tires have no good rewards other than a little G load. You also slide through the grass faster and hit the wall harder. Please tell me one benefit of R tires other than maybe you get them for free.
It would make the most sense to start this class on the 20 tires that most Chumpemons have in the garage . Once the horse is out of the barn, you cant go back. ( You could loosen the rule up later to meet demand) but once some new guy's wife buys him a set of Hoes. it 's over.
Chumps spend more on fuel than tires!!
There are maybe 12-15 "R tire" classes that are already weak. Allowing R tires to this class would just add to the weakness. The R guys can run someplace else.
Having a dedicated group on streets makes a lot of sense.
180 Tires would indeed allow double dipping for the rest of the IT cars and some of the Prod cars. 400$ per set of tires is like free for most of you. One set of wheels and tires are about the same $ as 4 Hoes and can last 50 sessions.
Chumps went Chump for a few reasons. Hassle, cost, track time.
You comment makes no sense and is rude.
MM
Yeah, sorry, guys - I'm totally drinking the street tire koolaid on this one.
(And yes, I have raced on them, so nyah!)
The primary purpose of the idea is to capture the Chump/Lemons crowd. Even if it's framed as a "fun run" class initially, you KNOW it's a racing class and racers gonna race - particularly if it catches on even a little. Messing up a key aspect of what makes those formulae work seems like a bad idea. The class can't be everything to everyone so there's no sense dorking up a key aspect of the draw for the target market.
Unless I misunderstand and the class is really supposed to target existing SCCA class-eligible cars...?
K
Easy:
1) It's not inviting "a" class, it's inviting a category - a mindset - of significantly disparate vehicles from multiple, disparate, disorganized "organizations". NER is inviting "crapcan" cars to come play in, and experience, a different culture, and not to a specific set of regs from any specific other orgs; and
2) They're not changing any costly parameter; they're saying "come run with us, whatever your configuration, whatever you got, as long as it meets our minimum safety regulations."
Herein lies the major difference between how you see this and how I see this (and this is *NOT* a personal attack): you see possibilities of competition, I see possibilities of access. You're thinking in terms of how you can be competitive in a particular class at a minimum of cost; I'm seeing how we can get someone who's not raced with SCCA to come race with SCCA.
And you can race on street tires if you want to. We don't care. Just give everyone else the right to choose what they want to do, too.
A lot of people just gloss right over that whole "no guarantee of competitiveness" thing (the whole basic concept of Improved Touring - the original crapcan series back in 1984!). Some will see that and think "oh cool, a place to play" while others see that and think "oh good, I can be competitive 'cause no one else will try to be". When it comes to ITEZ, I'm the former ("hey, go play and have fun") and you're the latter ("I'm'a gonna win that race!") I could be wrong, but I suggest that ITEZ's intent is "go play" and that means "by whatever means you choose to do, but keep in mind someone else is gonna spend more money than you".
THIS is why I keep teasing you about the "jumping the shark" thing with crapcan racing. It's gone beyond the "let's go have fun stage" and is well past the "I'm'a gonna win that race!" stage. Right now, NER SCCA is all about "go play". That may change later, but for now...
Greg
P.S., Non sequitor, I'm still trying to decide what to do about Sebring and PBR - still trying to find a hitchhike space for my Integra - and I'd really like to get a couple STL finishes under my belt. If you have a car that'll run two weekends without issue, might need to meet up.
Anyone want to run an ex ITB VW schirocco? I know where you can get one cheep... I think all it needs a front shock, transmission and some safety stuff like belts. If you are interested contact me!
Raymond Blethen
603-738-6686
???
Yes!!
Making street tires mandatory so everyone is competitive makes no sense. You've got a '79 Ford LTD with a 250K suspension running against forced induction '93 Miata............ Is being on street tires going to make that equal??? :blink:
Run what ya brung............
And everyone forgets the first page of the IT rules in the GCR: No guarantee of competitiveness...........
The point of this, I believe, isn't to be a catch-all to other existing SCCA racecars. We have enough of those already. I too feel this should be on street tires. Get a lot of complaints, open it up. Much easier to do than the opposite.
It's not necessarily about being competitive. When I was running an under prepped car, I knew that I wasn't going to be near the front. I was okay with that. But if the street tire deal can make cars run a bit closer and encourages the less expensive culture, great!
If the goal is to attract some chump cars, why not ask they what they'd prefer? Is there a place where many potential candidates could be reached other than the ChumpCar forum?
I disagree, Dave; it's most assuredly intended to be a catch-all for cars that cannot fit anywhere else. A lot of these crapcan cars simply will not fit into anything else, especially given non-standard modifications. I know this because it has been a point of discussion among some hierarchy for some time on how to incorporate "crapcan" racing into the stodgy SCCA structure.
Couple this to the whole Racing Experience program and a street tire "mandate" is completely misplaced within the philosophy and intent of these programs, which are all about everything but mandates; they're the anti-mandates.
- GA
Chumpemons has very few rules. One is safety the other is tires.
Racing is all about applied HP. If you are not matted on the gas , the 400Hp does you no good. Shitty tires wont let you mat the pedal as soon.
Low grip tires do even up the pack by limiting applied HP.. both accelerating and stopping. The big power cars take a much longer time to get past a faster exiting lighter car. Shitty tires also stop longer but the overall pack is pretty similar. Lower grip= better racing for a lot of reasons. Spring rates are lower, shocks less important, blah blah ..
More grip simply cost more to run, brakes, fuel, tires, suspension all cost more at higher G loads.
The extreme example of this is ice racing where many cars are door to door for many laps with a huge sample of HP levels.
As noted if the 180TW is not popular, it is easy to change. But very hard to change to a 180 Rule if anyone has R tires.
Every venue that has gone to a faster, more expensive tire has seen a decrease in racers. (SM has new well funded blood) but many SM guys are also running STL or EP to get away from the crack.
AS far as SCCA Chumpemons,promotion goes. You will get banned from the CC forum for discussing any other venue. FB is pretty good, "Grassroots" is best. Print ad in Road and track, grassroots. a nice little PR sent someplaces.
The real issue I see is that we have very few races with any lead time to get the word out. CC post their schedule on their web site in NOV. for the next year.
I was trying to gather some dates but you have to look all over the net to find any SCCA dates.
Compare the Chumpcar site to any site that SCCA has. Right on the home page is the schedule for all to see. There is no easy access to our SCCA schedule.
We need a "SCCA Touring Car"( or EZ Touring car") home site that is simple with 10 doors or less, with a nationwide schedule on the front page. A 1 click page for the overview of our racing program.
I think that each category should have it's own official site, promoting their own agenda. Prod, GT, Touring, EZTC?
WE have so many people/regions involved it just gets sloppy to find anything. Look at the NASA 25 hr? good coverage , big ads.
When I posted my "crap can rules". My hits went to over 100 per day on that page. Why? google up "crapcan racing". Now google up IT racing. next try IT EZ ,
Google "FWD racing".
"SCCA touring car" comes up with terry 's jersey challenge.
You will see why I push for the "crapcan" title , in spite of the down sides to it.
"EZ Touring Car" by SCCA. might be good.
Google is my friend.
FB page might help
WE need google to hit upon a easy to navigate site. We need a nationwide schedule and compatible rules with other sanctions for EZ cross over.
GA ,I will look in the barn for the 300TW tires for the STL car.
Raymond. I am very interested in the Rocco. I called you.
MM
Mike Ogren/ ProtechRacing
1220 Broad St.-US 41
Masaryktown,FL. 34604
352/428/8983
www.fwdracingguide.com
Greg is right (god did I just say that). ITEZ is a catch all class. There is absolutely no guarantee of competitiveness. And Dave the only other one we have up here at this prep level is ITE which is very fast and runs with big bore.
IT EZ is an opportunity for LeChump and other orphans to race with NER SCCA. I have no idea how many if any LeChumpers want to race with us. Some say they are not interested in a sprint format. If we actually have a LeChump level cars show up it will be easy to create a class for them but first we need to PROVE that there is a demand.
NER has a pretty good series in 2014. 6 weekends, three tracks, it is going to be a good place to race.
Dave and Mike you both said put the cars of street tires now and it will be easy to change later. Are you guys on crack? Have you not met SCCA? All rule sets get more restrictive as a class matures. Adding a tire rule will be easy (or more likely adding a street tire class) if there is demand. Removing a restriction from the rules shakes the club at its very foundation.
So stop arguing. The rules do not have a street tire restriction. If you want one stop arguing on the internet and show up with a crap box at our events. I will not even consider a street tire class unless racers prove a little demand.
I have emailed this thread to the new Area 12 Director; Chief Steward for the Roebling Road Driver's School, and the new Atlanta Region RE, with a suggestion that the SEDIV adopt the NER's IT-EZ class. I'm only one voice out in the wilderness, so if you are interested in seeing this happen in SEDIV add your voice to the proposal by contacting your Area Director, RE, etc.
ITC69 - Do you mean "Fast Reply"? Random post btw.
Dick, think of the SCCA as a party host who organizes crack parties at various crack houses where crack addicts show up with their devices, buy crack from a dealer (smarty) and have at it. Before new addicts show up and partake, we'll need to advertise a little and do some pushing.
What's the plan?
I think that Atlanta already has something like this with their ITX class. Not sure all the details, as it's not really my place to know. But what I do know is that a couple of cars have shown up for the past couple years, including the ARRC, to run this class. The guys that do it have been having a lot of fun. The one team has a couple past ARRC winners on it, then they have another team mate or two multi-dip the car in different races and the PDX. That's sort of the idea behind the Chump cars, they get used among a team. Whether it's in sprints or enduros, I think the plan is sound.
My car is sort of on the border between an IT car and a Chump, and I've run it in both venues. My fun also comes from sharing it with friends. It also runs on the ice in winter and the occasional autocross, and almost always has a different guest driver or three.
As Mickey is alluding to, I think it would be a good idea to try to advertise this a little. Even if it's just banners on the race cars like what Chip was pitching. When the cars move around to different venues, as mine does, it may generate some interest.
I don't care about the tires at the end of the day. Run what you want. If they are Chump cars, they will want to stay on streets probably, just because the Chumpy setup will be better on the lower grip tires. If not, then they'll run what they had.
Will
the plan is to come up with a catch all class that welcomes alternate prep cars to race with NER SCCA and start a conversation on a few web boards hoping that those of you who are younger and more social media savvy than I will talk about it and some cars will show up and find out we have fun.
Then depending on what kind of cars show up if any see if we need to do some additional classing to make them want to come back.
so far I am on Plan
Quote:
catch-all to other existing SCCA racecars.
What I had really said was for car with current log books that have a home, I didn't feel SCCA should take into consideration those cars when developing the rules. As you said, it's about the crapcan type cars.
There have been enough instances where rules are opened up rather than vice versa. Since we're talking IT, a rather significant one was the ECU. Some might aruge it was really the washer bottle though.
I've always thought it's easier to give people something more in the future than take it away. Oh well.
I have built a fair number of cages for the Chump/Lemons guys as of late. One recent one is a couple of local to me guys. Very nice guys. But there view on how to make a fast lap is very different from your average club racer. They are putting a V6 that they hope to make 350hp in a under 2000lb MR2. And they feel its all about straight line speed. Now if you mix this type of thinking in with your regular IT momentum type cars, it may not end well. And I cannot imagine with all the "we have to many classes/race group thinking, that you would want to add another race group to accomodate this class. I know thinking "outside the box" to attract more(younger) racers is the goal and its a good concept, but..... Oh and a the fact that most of the guys I have worked with are digruntled ex club racers does not bode well for them coming our way. But time will tell and I hope it helps the club. God knows are numbers are dropping fast.
Chris
Dick or others involved in this -
I realize this is an NER region deal. Will other regions who host races at tracks within the NER owned tracks also allow this regional class as well? Many (most?) racers never really care or think all that much which region is hosting the event at the tracks within that region.
[QUOTE=mossaidis;352362]ITC69 - Do you mean "Fast Reply"? Random post btw.
woops, was caused by fat fingering of keyboard:(
comment was deleted - please see my other comment.
the corner straight thing has always been there. I just love racing with 200hp SSB cars.
Once opon a time the solo community was one place club racing attracted guys looking for the next thrill. Way too many of those guys are now going to LeChump. We need to fix that.
Well you are only describing two events. Mo Hud is working with NER at Thompson and I am sure they will run our classes. As to the Narrc off the New York does in October at Lime Rock I have no idea, I have not spoken to them, but they have 10 months to decide.
So Ive been reading this and am kind of perplexed. Where does it say its for Lemons and Chump cars only????
Seems to me there are plenty of other organizations that have cars that will meet the SCCA Safty and not quite fit other classes. BMWCCA, PCA, SCCNH,New England Hillclimb Association, Rally America, NASA Performance Touring, EMRA ST.
We dont want to say "Hey Subaru Rally Team USA, you should call Team ONiel and bring some 2wd rally cars and get the Hillclimb BMWs to show up and dont forget the NASA/EMRA Guys too and get some Wheel To wheel racing and Tarmac Practice" Oh wait you need 180tw Dunlopstonegoodriches or you cant run. This is a class for Crap Cans. Your not invited.
Or did I read the rule wrong and its not a class for Cars that don't fit into any individual SCCA class but meet SCCA Safety and dont fit in the Fast Group. Its really a class for Lechump cars only and the rules are misleading.
Just food for thought, there are other organizations that would have cars for this as well.
could also be a nice place for IT7's to double dip :shrug:
Exactly!!!!!!!!
But I already have a Crap Can with Class.
IMPROVED TOURING ENDURO (Class designation = ITE)
The purpose of the ITE class is to allow vehicles from other professional race
Series, Pro-Rally, Showroom Stock (those not otherwise eligible for IT or SS) and equivalent marquee club classes to compete at a regional level. No guarantee of competitiveness or equality is expressed or implied.
To that end, the ITE rules and guidelines are that ALL VEHICLES MUST:
- Meet (at minimum) current Improved Touring safety specifications.
- Run DOT approved street radials; tire brand is free. However, wheel and tire Specifications must be per the original series rules. Original series (except Pro-Rally) must have run exclusively on DOT tires.
- Compete in their declared series specification, except for tire brand & modifications, to meet SCCA safety specs.
- Display current SCCA Club racing decals; all other sanctioning bodies' Identification must be removed or covered.
- Posses an SCCA (only) vehicle logbook and roll cage number.
- Meet the current SCCA sound requirements.
ALL COMPETITORS MUST conform to current SCCA General Competition Rules.
ALL ENTRANTS MUST have in their possession, and available to tech personnel or the Chief Steward, the "Series Rulebooks and specification sheets" (IMSA Rulebook, SCCA Pro-Racing rulebook, Pro-Rally rulebook, etc.) and an official manufacturer’s shop manual(s) to authenticate the vehicle in its state / condition of preparation.
well that is the whole point. the conversation is focused on LeChump type cars but the reason this got traction is we see cars now and they that are basically IT cars but not really legal. With our current rules you either have to put them in ITE which as said runs with bog bore or look the other way about legality.
hence IT EZ is born. if you show up with an ITB cars with the wrong wheels no problem, if you show up with a car with a fiberglass hood, no problem we have a place to put you that it is a safe group to race. So as long as we are doing this why not open it up to other cars that also might want race at our great events. Now we have a way.
so lets day a bunch of folks show up and run in this class that are of similar prep and want fairer racing. well that is easy. we have already demonstrated to the old guard that the cars and drivers are safe, we can easily create a class.
so that is the deal. you and five of your buddies have an idea for a great new rule set, NER is giving you a place to come and race your cars and if you all are as smart as you think you are and people like your idea you get your own class just like you want it.
now get out in the garage and build your car.
LOL!
Dick, I think you are doing this exactly right. There are also quite a few HPDE type cars that folks have built that have engine swaps etc.
and you guys are providing them a place/class to race and experience SCCA and it is up to the rest of us at the rack to make the experience worth returning to.
The ITEZ rule is the same as the ITE rule. ??
Last years NE ITE winner was the Turbo VW?? Why not run the R cars in the ITE class designation and the 180 cars in the ITEZ class , same group? Solves all of our issues.. And keeps the ITEZ inside of the rule set for the cars interested. The other (R tire) double dippers can simply run ITE in the same group and get another race.
FOR SCCA to gain some of the orphan cars, we need to address this market with a big picture plan. Somewhat similar to the Chumpemons marketing.
We need some sort of nationwide rules agreement. The 180 tires and SCCA safety were the standard minimum parameters. The engine size or power is used some places depending on local interest and cars.
We need a " ITEZ coordinator" to take all of this data and post it on a site that "Google" can find.
We need to have a nationwide schedule posted in an easy access fashion . dedicated website to the ITEZ??
We need a PR person to put out PR to relative points of interest. face Book, "Grassroots", " Racer" etc. With lead time!!
Not 60days.
Face it , posting " we want Chumpcars" on the SCCA site and in the SCCA regional papers, just bites us in the ass. ( many comments drive away outsiders).
We need to find the demographic and hit it. The few Chumps that read these boards are already SCCA memebers. (waste of time as is most of this.)
Doing little blurbs here and there , waste of time.
How can one get all of the races, rules, etc and post them in one place?
I give up.