SCCA Club Racing for people who have turned 14 years of age...........

There's one I hadn't thought of...age in a car and age on the track. Picture this...a 14 yr old driver's car becomes disabled and arrives at a corner station. As a person who's under age for working the race, he cannot get out of his car where he is of legal age. He must drive his car to grid and not get out of it...even to pee...because he's too young to be in the pit or grid area, but not too young to drive a race car. As someone who's under age in most states, he can not be allowed to walk through the paddock at many race tracks without adult supervision.

Did anyone making the rules think this one through?

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I have to say that I'm not all that comfortable with the idea of potentially racing against 14 or 15 year olds, much less teenagers of any age. There is a reason that the military recruits teenagers. They think that they are invincible, that nothing bad can happen to them, so they will obey orders without thinking, taking chances that someone older and wiser would not take.
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That comment alone means you and I wouldn't agree on a lot of things... I started racing every automotive sport I could once I met the age requirement, so I was once a teenager that raced.


I only bring up this name because it was mentioned earlier... and I know A LOT of you old timers love Paul Newman and think he is gods gift to racing but... He is probably one of the beggest offenders of all the stuff you think that a 14 yr old will make. I have never seen the guy race and NOT make contact with someone whom he is bullying out of the way. He is far more of a danger at his old age with his slow reactions than some champion shiftercart driver (who has probably been around the same track faster than you on a cart). Another example is the 40+ yr old who is in a mid life crisis and thinks that he can race... somehow gets through the school in and gets on track and can't even race anyone in his/her class... instead ruins some other persons race in a slower class (We ahve all seen it).

Point is as long as the driver young, old or middle aged is held to the same standards, licencing requirements, and "rules of the road" then I see nothing wrong with that person (young, old or middleaged) compeating with me... Remember they still have to pass the school, and we/you can be an instructor if you are worried that a safe level of driver skills is not being met!!!

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So at 14 they can get a novice permit, but they cannot work a corner until they are 16? Doesn't the club lack workers more than drivers, or am I missing something?

You still need to be 17 min to enter the military and Nascar won't let you in the top series until you are 18.

I agree with the comment about levels of responsibilities. If we can't "trust" them to handle the flags, how can we race 100+ MPH with them at our door? We are not a feeder series, we are amateur racers.
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I do think that Jason has a VERY VALID point... If they can't work a corner then they absolutely should not be racing.

Raymond "Teenagers are bad really iritates me, even though I am getting old :( " Blethen

I am not so sure about that. While racing takes requires some good decision to be made in a timely manner, I would argue that working a corner or driving on the street takes a higher maturity level. I think I would trust a kid for a half hour race more than 8 hours on station. I know I am less scared by a 14 year old in a race car than if he was driving the tow vehicle. I have had a few 16 year old students and was impressed with their seriousness and ability. I wish I could say the same for every adult.
In my mind if our insurance company is okay with it so am I.

Wow,,,I am shocked at the amount of generalizion going on here. tch tch. :018:

On the track, I've been hit by morons of ALL ages. I am confident that age has little to do with it.

Deciding WHO races on the track is up to US....as we are the instructors and the judges of skill and talent and judgement.

If WE do our job correctly, this is not an issue. If we don't do our job correctly, we have far bigger problems than worrying about silly numbers and generalizations.

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Wow,,,I am shocked at the amount of generalizion going on here. tch tch. :018:

On the track, I've been hit by morons of ALL ages. I am confident that age has little to do with it.[/b]

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Agreed. Maturity occurs at all ages.

I went to skip barber race school when I was 16, raced a season with them and then moved to a slower car (ITB) that was my own at 17, almost 18. When at Skip Barber there was a 14 year old brazilian kid that broke Road Americas track record 3 times in one weekend. I think if they are trained and have the money, let them race!

Earlier on in this argument someone mentioned we are NOT a feeder series, but remember the days when we were? When open wheel and sports car drivers came out of the SCCA ranks to go on to great things and were ambasadors for the club? Sure, there are many reasons that isn't still the case but one of them is that the major series are looking for 18-24 year olds to sign. If you expect a kid to wait until 16 (or 18) to get behind the wheel in SCCA then the real talent is going to continue to skip racing with us. Does anyone know how old the kids in the open wheel feeder series in Europe are?

As Jake says, we have instructors, stewards and a process that is designed to keep people of the track who don't belong there. Yes, we have all seen instances where that has failed but that isn't related to the age of the driver. We need to police ourselves in that respect. There are 14 year olds that are mature enough and capable of racing better than most of discussing this and if they want to race with us I welcome the competition as well as the future exposure. Who wouldn't like to say they raced with future Lewis Hamilton (and kicked his butt that one time at track X) For the ones that aren't ready the people at the schools need to stand up and say "wait a year."

I knew I could not stay out of this one. I have a 16 year old who participated alongside of me this March at a driver's school. As his car (ITA RX-7) was not ready we rented another ITA ride for him. I had complete confidence in his abilities and decision making, also he had no pretensions about his driver skill. He made every effort to monitor his mirrors and allow faster, more experienced drivers all the room they needed. He sucessfully completed the school and first race!

At the second race in April we decided to share my POS318i ITB car for the weekend to complete our license requirements. During qualifying he dove under an SM at Gateway's turn three but made the mistake of the other driver not seeing him. The other driver chopped down on him pretty hard. His decision making at this point was ABSOLUTELY CORRECT given his limited racing and driving experience. He chose NOT TO force the pass as this would have resulted in car to car contact and a real big mess considering the traffic. He took to the outside curbing but did not realize fully what that would do. At that point on the track there is very little margin for error and he made contact with the wall ending our weekend. Even though his decision messed up the car a bit he was fully aware of what car to car contact meant for him and about ten other cars close in trail. Pretty heads up for a teenager I think in this situation. He did realize exactly what got him there in the first place though.

Now for some soapbox talk. My son obtained his learner's permit at the first opportunity in Missouri at 15. I had him autocrossing the first weekend after that. He also participated with me as a rider at track days for those organizations allowing it. On his 16th birthday I had him participate in the BMW Club's Street Survival School. He also continued autocrossing. He has clearly stated he wants to race and be respected by other racers. I did have plenty of discussions with him over how youthful agression may be a real issue in club racing. As far as his car goes, you wreck, you pay, you fix. This has tempered his driving on the track and the street, especially the street. He understands and knows the dangers of street racing and mommies in minivans/SUVs and Spec Miatas. I have complete trust in him behind the wheel on the track or the street.

Would I feel the same way if he was 14? Probably not, even if karting was on his driving resume. I do not believe there is enough "life" experience there to get in a real sedan or formula car and duke it out on a modern racetrack. I know a lot of karts are much higher performing machines than what our normal club racing has to offer. However I do not feel the risks are the same. Yes, you can die in a kart same as a sedan or formula car but my experience has shown that you can take chances in a kart that would be disastrous in a club race. I guess I am waffling a bit on how I really think. I am sure I would trust a younger driver, as long as the individual could get through an SCCA driver's school then why not. Us old farts are supposed to be the judges and peer group for all those youngsters anyway aren't we?

There are exceptions to EVERYTHING!!

There are many adults that are immature idiots (you know them, we race against them every weekend!)

There are many teenagers that are are mature, level headed and are great racers.

I do remember when I was 14-16.............Trust me, you wouldn't have wanted to be racing door to door with me........I wasn't mature enough to make some of the decisions (especially the life and death ones) that we make every second we are on the track.

Yes, there is the kid that's been running karts since he was 8. But just like our concerns with a student in his first school coming to the track with NO PREVIOUS TRACK EXPERIENCE (remember, you don't need any previous tracK experience to go to an SCCA school). You can't tell me a 14 YO will make as good as decisions as a 30 YO........

No offense to any teens!! :)


I had to edit, I accidentally clicked the "drinking beer" icon!! Hmmmmm, not appropriate!! :lol:

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I had to edit, I accidentally clicked the "drinking beer" icon!! Hmmmmm, not appropriate!! :lol:
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lol

Raymond " Aw Heck :birra: " Blethen

So, do we think the guy in F1 that was nearly in the points last weekend (filling in for Kubica) has about 2 yrs racing experience? He just turned 19

Here is my take on this matter.
My son ( 14 now )who drives a kart and has been at the track since he was 3 months old is ready to race. He would be 15 when he takes a driver school in my IT car next spring ( if the rule is passed by the BOD) .
He is the deal I made him: You can get your state drivers license and pay the $150.00-$200.00 per month our insurance will go up and drive around with your friends or take that money that would be spent on insurance and go race a car ( and still drive around with your friends only has a passenger). That would mean no state drivers license for a couple of years. What would you do? I think it is a very fair deal. I can't afford for both of us to race and for him to drive on the road too.
He has a vested interest in the car and has helped me work on it since he could. He torques the wheels,changes brakes,he has helped change motors,trans,etc. He also is a big part of our national race program doing crew work. Thoughts?

Bob Clark
#76 Cen-Div GTL 89 Honda CRX Si
#76 Cen-Div ITB 86 Honda CRX Si
2006 GTL National Champion's Crew Chief

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Here is my take on this matter.
My son ( 14 now )who drives a kart and has been at the track since he was 3 months old is ready to race. He would be 15 when he takes a driver school in my IT car next spring ( if the rule is passed by the BOD) .
He is the deal I made him: You can get your state drivers license and pay the $150.00-$200.00 per month our insurance will go up and drive around with your friends or take that money that would be spent on insurance and go race a car ( and still drive around with your friends only has a passenger). That would mean no state drivers license for a couple of years. What would you do? I think it is a very fair deal. I can't afford for both of us to race and for him to drive on the road too.
He has a vested interest in the car and has helped me work on it since he could. He torques the wheels,changes brakes,he has helped change motors,trans,etc. He also is a big part of our national race program doing crew work. Thoughts?

Bob Clark
#76 Cen-Div GTL 89 Honda CRX Si
#76 Cen-Div ITB 86 Honda CRX Si
2006 GTL National Champion's Crew Chief
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Good plan, let him race. But again, I think he is the exception not the rule. As somone said, it's the kid whose daddy just plunked down xx bazzillion dollars for a car and has that youthful "no fear" attitude that could make this interesting......

Jeff, "who hopes his son will some day show a "little" interest in racing...." Wanna trade?? :D

Bob, you're doing things the right way. There are many parents out there that will not.

I'm still not sure how I feel about this whole thing, and it most certainly depends on a case by case basis. I will say that there are some 14 year olds who I'd feel more comfortable racing with than some of the people I currently do.

As others have mentioned, the 14 (or whatever age) still needs to go through the SCCA licensing process and be tested to ensure they are race worthy.

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Bob, you're doing things the right way. There are many parents out there that will not.

I'm still not sure how I feel about this whole thing, and it most certainly depends on a case by case basis. I will say that there are some 14 year olds who I'd feel more comfortable racing with than some of the people I currently do.

As others have mentioned, the 14 (or whatever age) still needs to go through the SCCA licensing process and be tested to ensure they are race worthy.
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I'll add this: Since I am the Cen-Div licensing chairman I, will make sure that if a 14/15 year old asks for a waiver right to a license I will look at it VERY closley before I would even consider it ( hell I do this for every waiver request anyway,checking references,etc ). My personally feeling is if they want to race, they go to a SCCA school or two. The wrench in the works is the Pro schools that can get you a regional license after going through their schools. They would still have to go through Topeka to get the license ( anyone under 18 does) so I think there will be some checks and balances. Thoughts?

Jeff, I would not trade my 14 year old for anything! He is too much fun at the track. Sorry.

Bob

I can see the merits of a lot of different sides to this story. Bottom line is that I see advantages to allowing youngsters to race with the proper checks and balances. But I am not sure how I explain to my daughter who is seventeen, why she can't be with my wife in the pits at Mid-Ohio and someone three years younger can be out on the track.

One of the unintended consequences is the increased need to make sure that we have current cars for them to race. How many kids want to race a car that was thirty years old when they were born!!!

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On the track, I've been hit by morons of ALL ages. I am confident that age has little to do with it.

Deciding WHO races on the track is up to US....as we are the instructors and the judges of skill and talent and judgement.

If WE do our job correctly, this is not an issue. If we don't do our job correctly, we have far bigger problems than worrying about silly numbers and generalizations.
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This is the best I've seen so far.

Instead of the blanket change to 14, why don't we move the age AND ADD ADDITIONAL SCHOOL/HPDE EXPERIENCE requirement. Honestly, I am disappointed in how easy it is to get a racing license anyway. At my school hardly anybody had even done an HPDE, yet bought race cars and that weekend were racing -- slow, but racing.

Since I'm in Kansas, kids at 14 get a permit, 15 can drive by themselves to school/work, and 16 it's open season. I would love to get my son to HPDEs and eventually move forward if he is interested. He already does a great job helping me as crew chief...escorted around the track at age 11.

It's really no different than anything else - training & support = success. Morons will be morons whether they are 14 or 60. :rolleyes:

By the way one thing I ran into this spring in that you cannot waive a second school for minors regardless of prior experience without the signature of the VP of club racing. There are already rules so they do not shortcut the process.

I'm not looking for an arguement with my following words. :D Someone please answer why the following happened because as many of you have stated the SCCA has written rules for a Novice permit & the SCCA has driver instructors to be sure the rules are followed.

There have been two kids doing their SCCA schools in the South East within the past 5 or so years IIRC that crashed their cars (dads car) one even rolled the car in his (father is a past National Champ in a Production car) school & the both received their Novice permit. WHY did these two kids receive their Novice permit ? WRONG...................... (Please don't anyone tell me about extenuating circumstances, it's a friken SCHOOL.)

What the hell do ALL of the do gooders who are promoting 14 year old kids doing SCCA Club racing think is going to happen if (when) some driving instructor fails dad's little kid at an SCCA drivers school. Keep in mind this is a good ol daddy $$$'s who can't wait untill his kid turns 16 years old or else it's the SCCA being afraid they'll miss a free meal ticket. There will be more WRONG..............

I understand the skills & lack of skills of Karters therefore don't go there. Daddy $$$'s will take care of the kid with out skills. I Karted at the local level, the WKA Regional & the WKA National level in the early 90's. Most of the Karters in the class I raced were between 16 & 25 years of age while the fact is I was older than most of their fathers which the kids & fathers all got a kick out of.

David, you are talking about a failure of the system.

It has little to do with age. A failure is a failure, period.

It is up to US to choose WHO we allow on the track to race with us.

When I instruct, I ask myself, "Will I be comfortable racing with this person?" I answer that for myself, and I err on the conservative side.

If people are out there who don't belong, it is our OWN fault, not their Dads, or their age. Period.