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I respect you also and this is just a healthy debate. I just like to see more cars that can have a chance. That and the fact that it's a Honda doesn't hurt. Ok, the 80lbs isn't by any scientific method. It needs a weight break due to the front tire/brake problems it has. I realize to keep with fairness that it can't be too much because then it will outpower the RX7, which isn't fair. So, 100lbs is too much. I don't think 30-40lbs will do much for the front tire/brake issue. Maybe 50lbs on the low end would help. I dunno, all things aside how much of a weight break do you think a car would need to remedy the problem? It's not a loaded question. But how would you figure that out? I figured somewhere between 50-100lbs would help it. Right in the middle? How about 75lbs? There isn't much of a scientific method for this.[/b]
OK, so we can agree that these are just your thoughts. What you are proposing is a comp adjustment.
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On paper yes, it SHOULD. But, in reality it just doesn't. No, I don't have a dyno sheet in front of me to prove it. But, that 1.8 motor would be hard pressed to make 180WHP tops. It would never hit 185WHP. Like Jeremy pointed out. The cylinder head is very optimized for breathing and could put out more, but the cams and manifold are going to limit it. Especially with the secondary butterflies in there, I don't think they're helping and they can't be removed legally. [/b]
Jeremy did submit dyno sheets - and we thank him for it, but they prove nothing. The motor is far from built. Nicely tuned for what it is but come on, the data is irellevant, no?
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Ok, so 212.5 at the crank. What do you guys use for a correction for FWD cars? 12% loss seems to be typical for the hondas. So, 212.5 * 0.88 = 187hp to the wheels. A good 7hp too high. Again though, I can't prove it. But, i don't have a GSR nor do I race in ITS. I am just a fan of competition and also the Honda marque and would just like to see this car have a chance. [/b]
I use 14% but it's not germaine to the process as it operates on crank numbers. If you want to use 180 as the pinnacle and 14% correction - guess what??? 209.3 crank hp. Smack dab in the wheelhouse of the process. :happy204:
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Ok, so here's my numbers. RX7 - 50/50 weight distribution. GSR - 60/40 weight distribution. At 2700lbs, that's 270lbs more on the front end! With the same front tire size and the same sized brakes! Oh, and the GSR has the crappiest 5th gear ever! Those are my arguments. Yes, it's all based on the RX7 but I think it's a great argument given how close the specs are on paper. How much of a weight break to give? I dunno. But I think it needs to be at least 50lbs less than the RX7, and since the GSR is spec'd at 10lbs higher currently. I say a 60lb weight drop would be a good start. Though I think it would need to be more for the point of the weight break to be effective.[/b]
The issue over the course of the race (how long is too long?). The Integra is also one of the best handling FWD car on the planet. On to the brakes. Do you know what was a very competitive ITS car before the E36 325i/is obsoleted it? The E30 325i/is. Same sized front brakes, 2750lbs. You are gonna find a LOT of cars at a higher weight with the same sized or smaller brakes. Yes, the car is FWD but how can we quantify the issues? And your 5th gear comment holds no water. Take a look at the RX-7 5th gear. WORSE. RX-7 is .76 and GSR is .79. 15 cars in ITS have a equal or worse fifth gear.
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Ok, so ASSuming dyno sheets could be provided that a fult tilt motor only gets 180 to the ground. The weight numbers get tweaked a little based on that. So, less weight based on less HP potential, FWD is a minus, double wishbone a plus. Crappy 5th gear, a minus. Shitty weight distribution, another minus. What's that get us to?
s [/b]
We don't count FWD and weight distribution twice (unless it's something OBSCENE), your 5th gear is moot, and the crank hp is equal to 180whp already...so we have the original two - do they cancel out? I don't think so. But if you subtract 50lbs for a net loss, you get within 1lb of it's spec weight.
Class dismissed... :P Just kidding Dog!
And AGAIN, curb weight has little to NOTHING to do with spec weight...only a sanity check to make sure someting can GET to spec weight.
In the interest of full disclosure, Steve called me on his way home from work and we busted each others chops - and he knows all of this is here. Good debate - like I said, the system may not be perfect for everyones car but it is the SAME imperfect system.
AB