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We plan to run some enduro's with co-driver's next year. I have two driver's in mind that I trust in the car. And by trust I mean that they are very accomplished driver's and could pay for the car if they wadded it up. Anyway, I just wondered what kind of deal everyone else is doing as far as sharing expenses. Do you charge a flat fee, calculate the costs of the weekend and split it up, etc... I've been asked to provide a price and I'm not sure what would be fair to charge for an ECR race in an ITS car on Hoosiers.
Thanks for any suggestions.
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Jesse rented out his 944 E/P car for the production fest at VIR for $800.00. he provided nothing at all. dropped the car off and hung out with the guy in case he needed us but paid for nothing. It ran on old tires too. good tires but not new ones.
there are a lot of people renting out cars and many different systems of getting paid. the first and most important thing is to rent it to people who can pay for a crash. lots of people who can pay for a crash wont and its the same outcome. good luck on the rental business,some people love it and some have a bad taste after a few rentals.
Lawrence
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Some folks have suggested that our enduro rental seats are more expensive than others. To the extent that this might be true, I blame car owners who don't recognize the real costs that they incur by putting something on the track.
I total up anticipated direct costs (consummables, entry fees, travel) but don't stop there, as do some. I also apply a per-track-time-hour amortization of the cost of building and maintaining the car, over an estimated life of 3 years. (Yeah - feel free to question THAT assumption any way you want!) This accounts for engine rebuilds, safety equipment, and other expenses that are VERY real but not related directly to any one event.
Of course, all deals are "you break it, you buy it" for incidental damage, although we don't charge rental drivers for component failures (like our busted gearbox at the VIR 13) unless DL1 data indicates abuse as a proximate cause.
If you can score an enduro seat for 1/4 (or whatever portion) of the entry, fuel, tires, and other immediate expenses, GO FOR IT. If you are charging renters using that kind of math, call me: I'll rent out my seat in the Golf and come drive your car, the extra $$ in my pocket made possible by your subsidizing me putting wear and tear on your ride. :)
Because we use a preordinate formula, I'm not shy about sharing prices - figure about $2000 for 1/4 of a 12-hour enduro, with other options being more-or-less proportional based on track time.
K
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What about insurance???? what if the car breaks and breaks your renter from the neck down? now your friends wife wants money!! You have to prove in court that your system is typical for this type of business. Stress fracture that you COULD HAVE SEEN. one that no one could have seen. What is in place to protect you from this? Need something or at least talk to the correct people to make sure it cant come back to bite you. not trying to be the devil here just things i have thought about before renting out a car.
I had considered it several times and know others do it a lot i just got the :( every time i went over all that was at risk. I know i am making your day here <_< . But someone has addressed this before and you should talk to them as well as the others.
The 944 is a good platform for this kind of work and if you can fix the thing yourself you just may be able to drive for free. Making money is another thing. You need ten of the cars busy every weekend somewhere. Kind of like a tractor trailer if it anint working all the time its costing you money. :birra:
Lawrence
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"What about insurance???? what if the car breaks and breaks your renter from the neck down? now your friends wife wants money!!"
Lawrence, I could be wrong but I believe that when we submit an entry/sign the waiver we are waiving any claims against the SCCA, the sponsoring Region, the track, and competitors for anything arising out of the conduct of the event. However, I question whether that waiver would stand up in the face of gross negligence or intentional acts. I just read where a QB is suing a team because the team mascot hit him prior to the game in golf cart. I believe that players have been sued or even prosecuted for assault on the field - e.g. taking off your helmet and pounding the other guy. If another driver intentionally puts you in a wall and you are seriously injured, I'd talk to a lawyer before assuming you had no case. As to the lessor of a car, I'm pretty confident that our ins. would cover simple negligence. But I would put a waiver in the contract anyway. And I would ALWAYS have a written contract.
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I am not really sure how much help the waiver is in such a court case. I am sure some, but suing in violation of the waiver turns you into persona non-graita at any future SCCA function. Unfortunately that may not be too much of a disincentive to a widow.
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Insurance and waivers aside...
At $2000 per 1/4 of 12hr. enduro (3hrs.) that would be $667/hour. Would it be safe to assume then that $500 per 1/2 of 90 min enduro is reasonable for both parties?
This would be with the car owner paying entry fees and providing a race ready car.
Again... this is assuming a known qualified driver as opposed to renting it out to the general public.
Thanks for all the feedback so far!
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Good Thread! All questions I've had since I have a car that I've considered renting/sharing. I've tried to run a lot of these numbers before and have come to similar conclusions. From what I've seen, and having met Kirk, I would expect his numbers so be very good. I don't, however, think there is a linear correlation with the length of the event. Some of the costs are per event or per calender time, not track time (ie oil/filter, amortization).
I would think that $500 for 1/2 of a 90 minute enduro is about the bare minimum, and that would NOT include the entry fee and would assume no appreciable travel expenses.
Just my .02.
I would be interested to know what actions those who actively rent their cars (Kirk?) do to limit their liability or protect themselves and their assets. As stated earlier, you can pick a renter with some care, but once you are dealing with a widow I'm not sure that prudence will have much value.
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Shorter races cost more per hour than longer ones using my formula, since travel costs are the same for a 3 hour race at VIR as they are for a 13 hour race at the same track. Entry fees are not proportional, either.
At the end of the day, it's really about what the market will bear but $500 "feels" okay to me, if that is any indication.
K
EDIT - actually, I need to do this math for the ECRs, so I'll provide an update.
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I think more importantley are to get renters who you trust (trust not to be stupid on the track, trust to pay up if they damage the car) and who'll you'll have fun with. You are going to spend a lot of time with these people and everyone will be suffering from lack of sleep, so you don't want to be dealing with an ass hole.
I've done a few enduros with Kirk and always had a blast, when we were wining, when we were losing and when we were tired. That's the situation that will make this a positive experience for you. I've seen teams that didn't have this chemistry and it was ugly!!!
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One other thing to consider..
Have a dollar amount figured in just in case the worst happens. If the renter totals the car, he pays you X dollars, and you get to keep what's left of the car. God forbid that happens, but you want that in your rental contract. Stranger things have happened.
Mark
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To do an honest evaluation of rental costs for an ECR Weekend, look up last year's receipts for travel to and from each Racetrack, include a reasonable fudge factor for rising fuel costs. Add the price of a set of tires for the weekend; Costs of a replacement set of brake pads and rotors, add in other consumables used on a race weekend. Then come up with a number, see previous comments on this thread. Co-driver and I split the cost of entry fees, 1/2 of race fuel bill for the weekend and he pays an additional flat rental fee for the weekend. For the first year we raced togather, before he got into the car, he gave me a check for $XXXX.XX, which was an agreed upon price for the race care if he wadded it up -- and I got to keep the pieces to build a new car - Hasn't happened yet (thank-god). I was in the seat when the Motor Blew up last and was driving at the ARRC Enduro when I became the meat in a Miata sandwich. I always supply co-driver with a copy of the incar camera tapes after each race weekend & he keeps the trophies for the first 6 months after each race. Co-driver has become a friend & we have fun at the track. :rolleyes:
Yes we won :smilie_pokal: the ECR Series in class again this year. and yes we do go to florida for ECR's.
