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If anyone is looking to get a VWM type (clutch) differential I've posted a special over in the racing retailers section.
http://itforum.improvedtouring.com/forums/...st=0#entry79175
For those who want more info:
http://www.bildon.com/catalog/about/diffs.cfm
Pardon the brash commercialism but as a financial supporter of IT.com ... it's a perk :P
Those are Kaaz 1.5, correct?Quote:
If anyone is looking to get a VWM type (clutch) differential I've posted a special over in the racing retailers section. [/b]
Hi Bill, How much are they??
I like the clutch type a lot better than the Gleason.
Thanks, MM
Please chime in over here...
Quaife / Kaaz / Peloquin / VW Motorsport Diff Discussion
yummy. My biggest problem is where to break it in. MD is not very friendly to breaking it car parts in parking lots, even at low speeds.
As alluded to in the diff discussion, the cost of the diff is just part of the equation. A Quaife will require little to no maintenance, barring an unusual failure, and will be a huge improvement over an open diff. It should last for several seasons without maintenance.
The true limited slips (VWMS, Kaaz, Gemini, Peloquin) WILL be quicker than a quaife in most circumstances but require regular maintenance and replacement parts. So the total cost WILL be higher. You will PAY for that extra speed. :D
In my case, every time my transmission guy cracks the case open it costs me $1000 and goes up from there depending on what needs to be R&R'd.
If you're on a budget, Bill's limited slip is a good deal. The additional discount certainly helps. We just bought one and will be testing it back to back against my VWMS limited slip, the Gemini limited slip, and the Quaife.
MC
True, but again price is equal to the torsen, my problem is breakin. no way I can just tow the B car to a parking lot and do figure 8's without getting in trouble in my area. Breakin on a torsen isn't all that much, which is why its still on my wishlist.
Does the clutch/ramp style work with the inside wheel off of the ground?? Or does it need some load?
The Golf is so high that if it cant run fast on two wheels. it,s backing up. The welded runs quite well tho.
MM
The clutch type (VWMS and Kaaz 1.5) work with one wheel in the air
The Quaife does not
Still not sure about the peloquin. I think thats just like the Quaife.
Pelo and Quaife are identical (Torsen types)
Diff Tech...
http://www.bildon.com/catalog/about/diffs.cfm
To wrap up a few things here....
Yes we sell KAAZ, we also sell Gripper, Ricardo, Drexler and Masario diffs.
We dont list them all separately by name because the above diffs (exception being Masario) are all identical. 020 and 02A may come from supplier A while 02M and 02Q may be from supplier B.
Unless you have a clutch + viscous/hydraulic diff the only real LSD choice for road racing is a tried and true clutch type (Salisbury, ZF, etc etc) racing differential for reasons stated above and elsewhere...
So what's the difference between all the clutch types?
# and type of plates (adjustability), ramps angles, preload springs, cross pin design, weight, machining quality and of course cost.
Here are some things I've learned as we've worked with the various diffs. Some are my observations and some are those of an ex-BTCC team manager who now owns a UK race shop and has run all of the UK made differentials listed above... we discussed the KAAZ vs SOME of the others not long ago:
- KAAZ machining is generally of very high quality. They do make JGTC diffs afterall :o
- the KAAZ plates are all grooved to provide even oiling, whereas some other types (like the BMW OE diffs) have no oiling grooves which create hot spots leading to potential disk wear or warping.
- some diffs named above come with static preload in excess of 140 ft/lbs! This pretty much would result in a locker that isn't really much of an LSD and for rally cars could result in a first corner surprise! The VW diffs we sell are closer to 30 lb/ft. .. we spec them that way.
- some of the diffs use a multi-peice cross pin or pins that are marginal in thickness. This results in non-linear engagement as one "side" engages before the loose side does..also the cross pins being too thin are potential failure points. The KAAZ uses a solid 1 peice cross pin of relatively beefy design.
- In an effort to get more plates into some designs (for more marketable adjustability), the teeth of the planet gears are too close and/or too thin for an optimum design.
So...what's all this mean?
Since we race what we sell, we're only interested in bringing the VW racing community parts that do the job intended. The Quaife and Peloquin are great bits that are machined well and virtually indestructable. But they won't engage evenly (due to gear thrust) and they wont get you around a twisty race circuit faster than a clutch diff. So we're constantly monitoring the industry to see who has the next great widget (diff in this case) and then we test or find others to test them for us.... we pester the manufacturers, sales reps and/or importers until we get the answers we're looking for. We'll tell you what we know and we'll remove products we find to be inferior.
So the current "sweet spot" in affordable 020 and 02A VW road race diffs is the KAAZ with the preload, ramp angles and clutch packs we specify. However there are some other manufacturers on the horizon and we're keeping a look out for new applications...stay tuned...
oh and regarding the break-in...the documented process is optimum but not 100% required.
I have had success running them around a track "lightly" making sure not to "shock" the diff plates as I engaged them under smooth and moderate power application. About 20-30 "slowish" track laps and then an oil change should put you in good shape for a harder run. Again this is only somthing that I have had success with and not the officially recommended method.
Another solution is to run your break-in circles or figure 8s on the racetrack's parking lot or paddock before many others have arrived. Just let the track owners know what you are doing and they will surely oblige.
Dont forget to change your oil! and speaking of oil.... finding a gear oil that is compatible with synronizers AND LSD clutches is not easy. Motul and Silkolene make some while Red Line suggests the MT90 even though it does not mention LSD plate compatibility.
Bill,
I'm trying to get some more funds together for the diff. I'll be in touch soon. Thanks in a big way for stepping up for the GTS Challenge.
Here in the mid-atlantic region its usually just me and John Allen with a VR6 powered A2 GTi representing the VW brand. He is awesome and he usually takes the win over many higher powered cars.
Hope more people get with the program and head over to a NASA event and see what its like running against M3's and the porsches.
/Greg
Greg,
Yup after talking with some of the NASA folks I think that many of the race prepped VWs that run in IT and Production could clean up in GTS. The Porsche and Bimmer boys from what I'm told are usually in PCA or BMWCCA spec and are not maxed out. We all know the Porsche guys are wussies anyway ;-)
Seriously I think that with the mods allowed VWs can be competitive.
I heard VWs did well at Mid Ohio last weekend?
http://mylaps.com/results/newResults.jsp?id=297238
PS - no emails from the PCA guys! I've been a PCA member and my dream car is a GT3 Cup car, so hush!
PS PS - you and John need Bildon decals so you can qualify for the sponsorship program. Send me your addresses.
After two seasons with a Quaffe and three seasons with a Peloquin I switched to a Bildon diff in my 020 for this season and let me tell you this is the diff to have. I have found the wheel spin I had in a couple of turns in the past is all but gone, and the car pulls harder out of the turns than I am use to and the threshold braking has improved dramatically. For those of you that drive A2 chassis cars, you know we need all the help in the brake department we can get. There is also no noticable locking action that my jerk on the wheel that some other people have complained about with other clutch pack diffs.
Now I am not knocking the Quaffe or the Peloquin diff, they are perfect for the use they were intended for, the street. For a race car the Bildon diff is a must have and I do not mind the added service it requires. The car gets its oil changed every other race and now the trans/diff will get the same. I tear apart my trans every season to go through it and will be glad to report back on the wear, but with the fresh gear oil this diff will see I hope to see years of service from the clutch plates.
I want to thank Bill with all the support he gave me with the diff and all the products he offers, truly a first class opperation. Thank you for keeping me up front.
Jon Bonforte
ICSCC E Production 16V Golf
Portland Oregon