Never heard of this

Going over the scales at the Sebring
National the tech inspector sticks his
head in my car and tells me that I should
have my pin pulled on my 2.5lbs hand held.
He then proceeds to tell to not even keep
the pin in the car but to throw it away.
The tech guy then tells me that he will
let it slide this time but next event he
will throw me out. Feeling all exicited
about a killer drive and finish I respond
with a ok and let it drop. Now my question
to the rule gods here is can anyone tell
me where it says this in the gcr. I looked
with no such luck.

Kolin

That's another great example of something that an over-reaching, back-channel bulletin got applied to...

17.22.1.E says that the pin shall be removed from all "on-board fire systems" under the section about them. The section about "hand-held extinguishers" makes no mention of the requirement.

K

[This message has been edited by Knestis (edited January 20, 2005).]

I'd be afraid that the thing would go off on it's own under typical racing treatment without the pin in. I'd rather run an empty extenguisher than one without the pin.

Grafton

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Kolin Aspegren:


Going over the scales at the Sebring
National the tech inspector sticks his
head in my car and tells me that I should
have my pin pulled on my 2.5lbs hand held.
He then proceeds to tell to not even keep
the pin in the car but to throw it away.
The tech guy then tells me that he will
let it slide this time but next event he
will throw me out. Feeling all exicited
about a killer drive and finish I respond
with a ok and let it drop. Now my question
to the rule gods here is can anyone tell
me where it says this in the gcr. I looked
with no such luck.

Kolin

---

Kolin,
My understanding is that your pin should be pulled (and hopefully hanging from a lanyard for replacing after the session)on the false grid so that anytime during the session you can pop the handle in the event of a fire.

He was probably upset because he assumed you had the pin in during the session when in order to fire the thing you must have the pin out. My understanding is that the pin is supposed to be pulled during a session. But, you may have pointed out to him that hand-helds (still allowed in IT) at least must be unlatced before they can be used which would be a great deal more difficult than pulling your pin. So your minor infraction was just that. And as far as throwing away the pin, ask him if he is willing to clean up your car in case of an inadvertant discharge without an emergency.

Just my understanding of the way things are, you may hear more informed responses.
G. Robert Jones

Sorry C
Kolin, I thought you had an onboard system. Disregard all after "Kolin."
Another lesson in failing to read closely.


[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited January 20, 2005).]

Yes Kirk I read that ten times over
and thought system does not apply to
hand held. If said car has no system
is the hand held considered the system.
I guess to the tech guy it was. Of course
impound was no place to play name that
rule with our friendly tech inspector.

Kolin

(warning...I'm long-winded on this subject)

A little knowledge is a bad thing. The Scrutineer you encountered had not bothered to read the entire section on fire systems and extinguishers. This is not the first time that this has happened.

Last winter, I wrote to the CRB, the Club Racing Office and the National Administrator of Scrutineering about just this sort of thing (letter below). The response I got back was "well, WE understand what it means...what is the problem ?".

This has happened waaaay too many times to just be a 'single time freak occurance' by one Scrutineer. You need to email the CRB and the Club Racing office.


My letter of last year
March 24, 2004

To: Nat'l Admin Scrutineers
CRB
Club Racing Office
From: John Walsh
Re: Membership advisory on Fire System Safety Pins in May 2004 Fastrack


I read with interest the May 2004 Fastrack, and have a comment/concern about the "Member Advisory" regarding fires system safety pins, and GCR section 17.22.1.E

It is my understanding that this advisory refers only to "On-Board Fire Systems", as described in the GCR section 17.22.1, and not to "Hand-Held Fire Extinguishers" described in GCR section 17.22.2.

Several times in the past season, I know of Grid workers instructing drivers in Showroom Stock, Touring and Improved Touring classes to remove the seal and safety pins from their hand-held fire extinguishers before they would be allowed to enter the track for their session. It is my understanding that these Grid workers were instructed to do this by Club Racing Scrutineers.

Why is this not correct for SS, T and IT classed cars with hand-held extinguishers ? Easy: Once the seal/pin is pulled on a hand-held extinguisher, there is no way of determining whether that extinguisher has been partially discharged, even if it has a pressure gauge. The US Coast Guard, OSHA, Underwriters Labs (UL) and every certification & testing authority imaginable will tell you that a hand-held extinguisher without a seal is worthless. No SCCA Scrutineer should allow an unsealed hand-held extinguisher, regardless of what the gauge reading, to pass event tech or annual tech inspection.

Why is this different from an "on-board fire system" ? Virtually all on-board fire systems use a puncture and release valve head, which discharges the entire contents once the system is triggered. Hand-held extinguisher systems use a self-closing valve, which will only fire for as long user pulls the discharge trigger. Hand-held extinguisher manufacturers all will state that the self-closing valve is not a reliable seal, that hand-held extinguishers cannot be 'squirt-tested' and that, once the pin is pulled and the seal is broken, that hand-held extinguisher needs to be tested, refilled, resealed and recertified.

Why is this a big deal ? It's a big deal because there are SCCA race worker specialties who are now mis-interpreting the requirements of GCR 17.22.1.E, and applying that language to cars with systems covered by GCR 17.22.2. While it's a stretch, this could require competitors in the affected classes to replace their hand-held extinguishers for every race.

I urge you to publish and distribute a clarification to the Member Advisory, so that SS, T and IT competitors will not be asked to pull the seals and pins in their hand-held extinguishers.

Thanks,

John Walsh

John, I agree. Hand helds should have the pin in-place while on track.

Grafton, why would you want to race with an empty extinguisher? Safety equipment is the LAST place to skimp. You do wear a helmet, suit, shoes, gloves, etc. don't you?

Sorry, but that's pretty stupid logic. Ah, I answered my own question. With an empty bottle, you can use it to stamp out the flames like with a blanket.

Sorry for the sarcasm, but I just hope you don't actually have to need one down the road.


------------------
Tim Linerud
San Francisco Region SCCA
#95 GP Wabbit
http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/index.html

Edit: Master Walsh covered it quite well. I deleted my wordy response.

To summarize: don't pull the pin on your handheld before each session, and have your appeal fee ready for the next race if the guy won't listen to reason.

Oh, and go buy yourself a good on-board fire extinguisher SYSTEM. - GA


[This message has been edited by GregAmy (edited January 20, 2005).]

I had this problem once....and i agree...these hand held bottles are not designed to have the pin pulled and then bounced around a race track....these recruits (god bless them one and all)need to be told the diff. between a system and a hand held.. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

On a related subject - and the purpose of my personal appeal fee set-aside - I'm waiting with some interest for the time when someone decides that my fire system isn't legal.

I have it plumbed only to the passenger compartment, per the manufacturer's recommendations, in apparent violation of the rule requiring nozzles in two locations.

(Greg and I differ in philosophy on this front, by the way.)

You see, the system is installed in addition to a good, Halon hand-held extinguisher, that meets the IT minimum requirement...

K

What I am about to say I say as a driver and a Tech person..

When anybody in tech or a steward treats you like this in the future nicely ask them to show you the rule they are calling you out on. Even if they are correct you get the opportunity to learn something and if they are wrong you get the opportunity to teach something. If this person can't provide it then pull your car over and find the chief. If the chief can't provide it then find the safety stew. I promise they will only mess with you once when they find out you understand the rules and how the system works. But never is there a time where an official has the right to speak in a disrespectful fashion and I would go above that persons head at that point.

Wow guys great responses and now another
hand held story.Roebling National two
years ago tech fellow fails my hand held
because the pressure gauge reads
overcharged. He was younger like myself
(I have and try to remain very respectful
to the older SCCA guys) so no holding back
today. I ask him to pls reference what
page in the gcr explains this huge
safety oversight by me. To no avail
he starts to mutter some broken english.
He then instructs me to pull out my hand
held pull the pin and release the chemical
to bleed the system to the safety zone
on the gauge. All this mind you is under
the tech shed at Roebling.Of course I
laugh in his face and he writes me up
in my log book about the so called
infraction. Every hand held I have ever
owned comes from the factory overcharged.
Any ideas guys

Kolin

Kolin -

Whenever you encounter something like this, you should ask to see the Tech Steward. Not the Chief of Tech..but the Tech Steward. He'll be a qualified SCCA Steward who happens to be assigned to Tech for the weekend.

Explain what is happening. Be polite, calm but direct. Explain that you're prepared to protest (it's only $25, and you get it back, even if you lose the first round, as the protest will be considered well-founded), and then ask HIM to review the relevant GCR sections.

Too many people just mumble, bitch and comply with some weird 'regulation' that someone has 'imagined' for the weekend. Make them prove it to you. Have them cite the GCR or the Supps.

I think you need to write a letter addressing both of these issues. Send it to the National Administrator of Scrutineers (Bill Pichardo), the Divisional Exec. Steward (I'll guess that your Exec. Steward is SEDiv's Fred Schmucker), the Divisional Admin. of Scrutineers (Phil Mellor...who I think is also on the Nat'l BOD), the Divisional Safety Admin. (Dave Rollow), the chairman of the Club Racing Safety Committee (Bill Bradshaw - he's a good guy and hearing about this will probably make his hair stand up !) and the Club Racing Office.

Explain each incident. Discuss your understanding of the GCR, and how it conflicts with what you were directed to do. Explain the inherent danger of 'squirt-testing hand-held extinguishers (stupidity, actually). Ask that they issue a bulletin to their Tech staffs about this issue.

And, for your emailing pleasure:

Terry Ozment - Director of Club Racing: [email protected]
Club Racing Board: [email protected]
Fred Schmucker: [email protected]
Dave Rollow: [email protected]
Phil Mellor: [email protected]
Bill Pichardo: [email protected]
(can't find an email for Bill Bradshaw...but I may see him tomorrow night or in the next few weeks, so I'll discuss it with him).

There. The hard part is done. Now just write the letter.

Thanks John, Way better than I could ever say it. The only thing I would as is if you don't go to a tech stew. this guy/girl is gonna hassle every person with the same issue and it maybe because they don't know any better.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by racer_tim:
Grafton, why would you want to race with an empty extinguisher? Safety equipment is the LAST place to skimp. You do wear a helmet, suit, shoes, gloves, etc. don't you?

---

I don't know about you, but if the car is really on fire, I'm not messing around with the extenguisher. It will still be in it's bracket as I climb out, near a corner station if I'm lucky. All a 5lb bottle is only good for is stopping a small fire from turning into a big one.

Personally, I'd rather not find out what it looks like when it goes off inside the car at 100+ mph <edit> because the pin was already out </edit>, which in my opinion is more dangerous than no extenguisher at all.

Grafton



[This message has been edited by GKR_17 (edited January 24, 2005).]

Well nor to get off subject here. But I have had the opportunity to use my fire system twice in 14 years of racing. Both times it put the fire out and saved my bacon. The flash from an oil fire will burn way faster than your gonna get out of the car or reach for a hand held. I would not race a car again without a system now that I have used one.

I'd never even thought about building my car with out a fire system. Just doesn't seem to make sense to me as lots of things could happen to you, or the handheld, that would prevent you from using it. As long as it takes me, a newbie, to get in and out of a car, I'd probably burn up before getting out if there were no fire suppression available. Add in a mild "stun" from a good wreck and it seems sort of silly to race a car with no easily triggered system available when needed.

R

------------------
Ron Earp
http://www.gt40s.com
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey ITS
My electrons don't care if they flow through OEM wires, do yours?

I understand the frustration with tech folks who don't know the rules. At a driver's school in 1988, a notation was made in my car's logbook that it did not have the tow rings painted flouresent orange and that it must be corrected before next event. Nevermind that the GCR did not require tow rings for IT at the time or even mentioned the color for cars that required them. This happened while I was in the classroom session and my wife had taken the car to tech - she didn't know to disagree. At my first race at a different track, the scrutineers got a good laugh out of that one.

The point is that the rules are fairly complex and it's easy to misunderstand one particular rule, especially when your specialty (Tech) is required to work with all of them - not just the ones for your car. It is possible to respectfully disagree and ask that you be shown the rule that backs up the claim. If it escalates further and you believe he/she is wrong, then it's time to let the paper fly.

Bob Hudson
Atlanta Region