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I am currently considering converting my VW GTI from a Performance Rally car to an ITB car. I was wondering if anyone on the list has done this (recently) and what are some of the rule differances, specifically the cage, that I may have to consider.
If you would prefer to contact me off list my e-mail is:
[email protected]
Thanks,
Josh Scott
The key issues are going to be that in IT (a) the cage is limited in the number of connections to the shell, (B) it will have to be seamless DOM tubing to get a new road racing logbook, and © it must conform to the dimension rules.
Generally speaking, a rally cage is going to have - if anything - more than the minimum requirements for an IT car.
It'd be a good idea to spend the bucks necessary and buy a GCR (road racing rulebook) before you do anything that costs $$.
Have fun!
K
What Kirk's trying to say, is that the cage can only "touch" the car in 8 places. Since most rally cars add all kinds of gussett's and things to the cage, it might not pass the 8 point cage requirements.
I just sent you an e-mail.
Welcome to the group.
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Tim Linerud
San Francisco Region SCCA
#95 GP Wabbit (Bent)
http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/index.html
I know what you were trying to say racer_tim, but for a newbie that might be reading this, the cage can touch as many places as it wants, it can only be attached (welded or bolted) to the body/shell at 8 points.
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Scott
It's not what you build...
it's how you build it
Izzy's Custom Cages
http://www.angelfire.com/mo3/rudder_...sRX/SRsRX7.jpg
Josh,
Is your Rally car seam welded? If so, no bueno. Start with something else.
Quickshoe is correct. Many Rally cars are seam welded. Another thing to watch out for is cage tubes going through the firewall to the strut towers, another big no no in IT.
Beefed up control arms (plates wellded on for strength, etc. would have to be replaced.
The cross-over is usually not very feasible.
First off, thanks for all the input from everyone.
All good info. I will be joining and buying the GCR's, and I am currently only "vaguely" familiar with the rules.
1. The cage is attached (welded) to the chassis in more than 8 points. I will have to detach it in a few points.
2. The car is not seam welded.
3. The cage does not go thru the firewall.
I was lead to belevive that there is a maximum area that is allowed for cage mounting plates. Is this correct?
Is any one familiar with some of the basic differences in the required cross bracing? i.e. diagonals in the main hoop, door bars, behind the seats, etc...
Thanks
Josh
Indeed. The mounting plates may be a maximum of 100 sq in. They may have a maximum dimension of 12" to a side and a minimum of 2".Quote:
Originally posted by JoshScott:
I was lead to belevive that there is a maximum area that is allowed for cage mounting plates. Is this correct?
I have tried to get a clarification whether a mounting plate may be cut and welded to form a plate or if they must be a single contiguous piece.
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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
Josh, I wholly encourage you to grab the GCR and read the details rollcage rules yourself. It's really too large a subject to discuss reasonably without an understanding of the basics...
George, I can't give you an official clarification of the rules regarding your mounting plates concern, but I've seen far too many multiple-plate mounting points to think that it must be required to be a contiguous piece. For example, how many car have you seen out there with "boxes" built onto which the legs are mounted? Further, how about compound curves - such as at the firewall - that are handled with multiple plates welded together?
Finally, consider this: if two separate plates are welded together and the seams ground flush to where you can't see the weld, are they now considered contiguous? If you say yes, then what if the welds were not ground off so you can see them; still contiguous? If no, then why not, being the only difference is the perception of the reality?
Remember: cheating is still cheating, even if you can't see it.
Realistically speaking, I would place my bets on the "not required to be one big bent piece" argument. Plates that are properly welded together ARE contiguous by all definitions of the term. Just because they did not start out life as one big bent piece is irrelevant.
Hopefully so, I might add, since mine - and most of my competitors - did not.
GA
That's the way I see the issue. I mean, a proper weld goes through the material and forms a single piece. It's not like gluing. http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif But, my local tech guy couldn't give me an answer (scary in and of itself).Quote:
Originally posted by grega:
Plates that are properly welded together ARE contiguous by all definitions of the term.
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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
Oooo! Lotsa cars out there with 'multi' peice plates, could be some protests flying....I hope not though, as I'd be in the line of fire as well!
I can't see how it could be illegal, as it's in the interest of safety to create better connections (that won't 'punch through' between the cage and the car.
And I agree with GregA regarding the origin of metal (it becomes a plate via a melting procedure, no?), and we're, in esssence, replicating that.
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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
If this VW has more than one rally on it, DON'T DO IT!
You might as well try to convert a demo derby car.
Its not worth it. If you want to run IT, buy an IT car.
I'm assuming its a Group 2 car and basically everything that has been done to it would be illegal in IT.
If you've ever jumped the car, it isn't structually sound anymore.
I am betting it isn't close to straight. Rally cars like to hit trees. All of your suspension settings would be odd compared to everyone elses. You'd have a common car and be on your own for setup.
Do not attempt to convert it to IT.
Jamie
Greg and Jake:
Thanks for the feedback re: plates. I'll make piecemeal plates. That will make life simpler.
Have the main hoop and front downtubes bent. Installing 220 in the garage this weekend. Cage should be done soon. http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif
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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
Thanks for the warnings regarding the conversion and the "abuse" that rally cars take. I will consider this as part of the big picture.
Atta boy Geo!! Remember, 220, 221, .....whatever it takes!Quote:
Originally posted by Geo:
Greg and Jake:
... Installing 220 in the garage this weekend. Cage should be done soon. http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif
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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
Josh-
You are new and looking to have fun... don't worry about the car being abused before. We have "rallied" our Audi's several times. well I guess not rallied but ran the MT. Washington Hillclimb several times. Not to mention the cars have been "totaled" a few times. My car actually has been cut in half behind the firewall and a new front clip grafted on after an incident with a rather large pipe that held together the edge of the road at Mt Washington. I think our results last season show that these incidents did not ruin the car.
Back in the day it was not worth it to fix a car that was totaled but in todays world I feel that it is feasable with new technology, prodcts, and talent. The car might not be "perfect" as in may have once been but none the less it will work fine for your "first" car. Just make sure you give it a look over to make sure that the car is streight. The most important thing is that you will be able to alighn the car properly. Structually if the car has hit a few trees (or done a few large jumps) then it might be more prone to damage in an accident. Will it be less safe? Not in my opinion. Good luck with your project, and I agree with others that the cage is probably the only part you will have difficulty converting. Find someone in your area to come over and make suggestions BEFORE you start hacking. Their are IT cage builders all over the country who would be more than willing to help you. As a "newbie" no matter how much you look at the GCR you will still end up going " I should have done that" but it will be to late, the cage is the hardest thing to change.
Raymond Blethen
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http://rstperformance.bizland.com/rstsignature.jpg
RST Performance Racing
www.rstperformance.com
1st and 2nd 2003 ITB NARRC Championship
1st and 6th 2003 ITB NERRC Championship
3rd 2003 ITB ARRC Sprint Race
4th 2003 ITB ARRC Endoro
1st 2003 AS NERRC and NARRC Championships