Question for guys running Hoosier R3S04's

Here is a question I posted on the EMRA site concerning tires for next year...

I am interested in trying a set for next year, but was concerned with the life of the tire. I have been racing on Kumho Victoracers and I like them a lot due to the fact that I was able to get so many events out of them. I raced on a set for 2 seasons...4 races per season. That's 8 races and they were used when I got them! I was impressed that they lasted so long...although they are SHOT now. My racing budget is quite slim with a new baby in the house, so before I dropped my tire fund I wanted see how long the new Hoosiers were lasting for you guys. I have heard wonderful things about the traction...but they do me no good if they only last a few races. I just can't afford to race on new tires every couple of events. As always...thanks for your help and input!!!

Ben Ahrberg
#91 ST-2 RX-7

Unless you are meticulous about rotating them around the car, and your suspension is optimized for Hoosiers, and to a lesser extent with RS304s than 303s you have properly heat cycled them, you will get 2-3 races out of them with great traction and then, at least on my car (2560 lb rwd ITS car), they drop off quickly.

Note that I am not quick, not meticulous about rotating and my suspension is not setup to really make the tire last. I know a few guys I trust who are all of the above, and they say the tire lasts longer than the 303.

If budget is a factor, Kumho/Toyo is the way to go.

I get about 7-8 cycles (each session is a cycle). But when they go off they GO off. Hoosier is hard to beat for speed, but unless you have everything else maximised and a lot to spend on tires I'd say try some Toyos. They drive alot like the Hoosiers (just slower) and they last forever and don't really go away.
John Norris
ITS E36

I bought four brand-new S304s in November '03 at the ARRC. Between those four tires and two more I bought in mid-summer '04, I ran:

- ARRC '03: one test session, one practice session, one qually, and the race
- NHIS driver's school (on-track instructor)
- NHIS Regional
- LRP driver's school (on-track instructor)
- LRP Regional
- Half day test-n-tune, LRP (4 sessions)
- Two-race NASA weekend (two practices, two quallies, two races), Summit Point
- Final '04 weekend: NARRC Runoffs, October, Lime Rock Park. One practice, one qually, race. I set my fastest-ever LRP lap time during the race.

All six tires have discernable tread left and are packed in sealed garbage bags, deep in my basement away from electrical motors, ready to go for the start of '05. My suggestion to you if you buy them is that with only 4 races per year racing tires are much more likely to oxidize and age than wear out. I wholly encourage you to heat-cycle them properly and bag them between races (as I do). - GA

Thanks for the input guys! The more I hear, the more I am leaning toward the Toyo's. I really liked my Kumho's...but people seem to think that the Toyo's last longer. In a head to head comparison between Toyo's and Kumho's what would you pick?

Depends on teh Kumho. If it is the new Hoosier wannabe, I've heard it is fast. Toyos are supposedly the equal of Ecstas and Victos, and last longer.

By the way, see Greg Amy's post above for the CORRECT way to treat your Hos. If you don't, they don't last (i.e. do what I do which is don't rotate, don't bag them after races and have the suspension all fookered up). As Greg indicated, those who care for their Hos get much more life out of them than we who don't. I am unfortunatley with John -- I don't care for the tire and get 6-7 heat cycles (2-3 practice/qual/race cylces) out of them and then they REALLY go away.

Sorry...I should have been more specific. I was talking about the Kumho Victoracers. The Toyo's last longer than these?

Ben,
For year one I used Kumos then decided to try the Toyos. They do feel a bit different (the Toyos squeal a bit more). I found the Toyos to last longer and are faster.

Wow Greg - seems like you've gotten some great life out of them.

As for the Hoosier set-up...what it is? What type of alignment is best for the Hoosier tires?

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Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si

Every tire requires a different chassis setup; tire physical construction is different. This could mean different spring and damper rates, different alignment settings, and certainly different driving styles. All of this needs to be determined by testing and evaluation with the pyrometer, tire pressure gauge, and butt-o-meter; next year we add data aquisition to the toolbox.

There is no "Hoosier setup" per se. You just need to know that swapping tires without evaluating that change can be wasted money and speed.

For comparison, when we switched from Kumho VictorRacers to the old Hoosiers, and again to the new Hoosiers, we needed to change springs, damper rates, camber, toe, and driving styles...those $175 LRP test days come in REAL handy.

At the VERY least, you need to get yourself a tire pyrometer. It's the very best tool for setting up your car.

Greg makes excellent points. Its all about temperature. I have used one set of Hoosiers for a season, for four consectutive years. I run 5 double regionals a year. My car is a CRX. After every session we check tire pressures, look at wear, and take into account ambient and track temps. I bag my tires between races. We constantly check alignment on the car between race weekends and scale the car. All of this helps our tire wear. I will admit I'm not the fastest shoe, but we are competative at every race. Our basic set up is sound, so we can adjust from there.
--Bill

Greg,

I store my Hoosiers but don't bag them. This is the first I've heard of bagging tires or keeping them away from electrical motors. What's that do?

Tom

Tom, oxygen from the air causes oxidation (sorry for the apparent circular logic) and ozone is emitted from electrical motors. Both cause degradation of the rubber compound. The former is very easy to see after a couple of days sitting on the trailer; ever notice the edges of your tires turn blue? That's oxidation. Further, being exposed to UV light causes rubber degradation; ever see the crazing and cracking of older street tires? That's UV-light damage.

Ever notice that your tires are very hard after sitting around all winter? Rubber degradation. Even if you think they feel soft after the first session of re-use, a durometer would confirm that they're not the same tires you "put away" last Fall.

Remember that a race tire's rubber compound is as important as its physical construction. As rubber ages and degrades it becomes harder, and hard rubber is not as grippy. By placing the tires in opaque heavy-wall garbage bags (I use "contracter-grade" bags from Home Depot) and keeping them at room temperature (the garage, or the basement in the winter time) and away from electrical motors you will go a long way towards increasing the usable life of your race tire.

To go even further, I use nitrogen exclusively to fill my tires (no moisture, no oxygen, and the N2 molecules don't slip through the rubber compound as easily helping to maintain long-term storage pressure) and I even purge the air from the garbage bags when I store them for the winter.

Finally, by removing the tires from my car they are not subjected to constant asymmetrical loads and tread impressions for long term. No out-of-round flat spots and no stretched-steel marks on the tread face.

Basically, my tire care regiment can be summarized as follows:

- New tires are purged and filled with nitrogen. All subsequent top offs are with nitrogen.
- I follow Hoosier's break-in procedures to the "T". That basically means heat-cycling them in a specific manner and letting them sit for 24 hours before pushing them hard.
- Tires are removed from the car after each weekend (optimally, before putting it back on the trailer) and placed in opaque heavy-duty garbage bags, stored in a near-room-temperature environment away from electrical motors.
- For longer-term storage (greater than 3-4 weeks) those garbage bags are purged of air as much as possible and left with only nitrogen. For extreme lengths, like over the winter, I move them to my basement (I don't have a temperature-controlled garage and I'm too lazy to carry them down there between races.)

Am I taking it to the idiotic extreme? Dunno. But take a look at how many sessions I'm getting out of them and you tell me if it's worth the time, effort, and money (for nitrogen and garbage bags)... GA

FYI - The only types of motors that generate ozone are brush type motors like those found in a hand drill, hand circular saw or a dremel tool. The ozone is created by the arcing from the brushes. Regular 'squirrel cage' induction motors (like those found in most fans, blowers, compressors, drill presses or table saws, and other higher horsepower loads) do not cause arcing and therefor don't create ozone.

Tirerack has some decent storage advice.
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/gen...toringtires.jsp


[This message has been edited by Greg Gauper (edited December 29, 2004).]

greg--I use those HOME Depot bags too for tire storage.

Don't purge with Nitogen, though.

Cheers.

Store them in a large Mayo jar because they don't like being alone, as you are screwing the top on sing Purple Haze, skip and flap your arms like a chicken, squawking is optional, close the blinds but leave the lights on since they are afraid of the dark.
http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

If the squawking and mayo jars got one more session out of my tires, it'd be worth it.

Thanks Greg, I store mine in the basement, off the floor, purged of air. The basement is cool and dry.

"All Along the Watchtower" is superior to "Purple Haze", even if Jimi didn't write it. Even Dylan thought the Hendrix version was better. (Don't know if my tires like it)

Tom Donnelly

One thing that will bring back a tire is to buff the tread surface with a 40 grit buffing wheel or a coarse wire wheel will also work. Dirt late model guys have done this for years and the pavement oval track guys have done this for the past couple. It stinks and is messy but it could get you another weekend or two out of the tires. The Hoosier guys even recommended this at a test session I was at a couple of years ago.

Has anybody tried the Avon Tyre? It's a little cheaper than the Hooiser, but is it any good?

timo

Quote:

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Originally posted by dj10:
Store them in a large Mayo jar because they don't like being alone, as you are screwing the top on sing Purple Haze, skip and flap your arms like a chicken, squawking is optional, close the blinds but leave the lights on since they are afraid of the dark.
http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

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Oh My God! You just figured out how I store my drivers! Don't forget to poke some holes in the lid.

katman
3 time ITS ARRC Winning Crew Chief

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katman

[This message has been edited by kthomas (edited January 07, 2005).]