Piston Ring Options

My plan for my motor is a ring/bearing/valve job, with a new oil pump. I talked to my mechanic, Kevin Macdonald at Mac's Performance, and he recommended the Total Seal Rings. I had considered them untill I heard that they actually reduce hp due to ring drag, this from a guy who found an extra 14 hp in a 2.0ltr FF motor. I might not want to use the rings he choose because they only last for 4 hours, but there have to be several good low-tension options out there other than Total-Seal. If it's something you don't want spread all across the www, I'd appreciate a pm.

James.

As an aside, I enjoyed getting togeather with Dave Gran, and Greg Amy last Wednesday.

I'm not an expert engine builder, but I can't imagine the Total Seal rings robbing too much power. I compete against several well built motors that I know ue TS rings.

I would be more concerned about what your builder is doing to your motor that the rings last only 4 hours.

hoop

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Originally Posted by iambhooper

I would be more concerned about what your builder is doing to your motor that the rings last only 4 hours.
hoop

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I'd second that. I've used Total Seal to good effect.

Look at it this way. If you were only getting four hours out of an engine you care more about absolute horsepower than a few tenths of horsepower lost due to ring tension. However the typical IT car is likely to want more than a weekend or two out of an engine.
At which point I would rather have the improved ring seal over a full season or two of racing between rebuilds.

Now if there were any rules nerds left they would tell me my car isn't fully prepped but those guys are long gone. I sleep fine at night with leak down numbers my motor still shows.

heres a thread from the Prod forum discussing the same thing. Looks like the best thing is to call Total Seal and see what they recommend for your particular engine.

http://prodracing.com/prodcar/viewto...ght=total+seal

I should add not all my rings, and most Z racers, are of the same brand.....

Hey James.

Kevin's a good guy and all, but I would recommend you speak to Chuck Stickley about your motor.
http://www.cssmotorsports.com/index.htm

Chuck built the motor in my ITS/ITR 2 door 325 in 2003 and I'm still running it, It doesn't leak a drop of oil, it's given me no trouble whatsoever. And I'm on my second log book with that car, and that includes mostly double race weekends and one year I ran two run groups on double race weekends. You've seen the car run and you know it's not lacking for horsepower! It's the best money I've ever spent on that car. In fact Chuck's building a motor for my endurance car right now.

I think I've miss typed what I ment about the 4hr rings. The story is a Formula guy, I was told who but I've forgotten, spent hundereds of hours on the dyno, looking for every advantage from his motor, and came up with a low tension ring that produces the more horsepower than any other ring, but only lasts about 4 hours( I doubt these rings are legal in IT as they are non-metallic.) This same racer tested TS rings, and found a drop in hp compared to most others. I know this is second hand, but as my friend will go with this same engine builder that did this work, I'm pretty confident it's only second hand. It would also seem to go with the theory of a bigger gap for the second ring, which I've seen else-where. I realize that the leak-down performance of the TS rings, is a very useful diagnostic to ring sealing. But if they're resulting in more drag too, how useful is it really? Also, this doesn't tell you about out of round cylinders either.

...On second thought maybe 4hr non-metallic piston rings are legal. But I don't want to run them... ( a rebuild after every weekend :eek: ) Besides the motor they went into was tight like a F1 motor. I'd probably need to start with a new motor to get close to those kinds of tolerances.

James

Yeah, part of the fun of IT is the (relatively) low stress motors....man, pulling the motor to re-ring it every 4 hours would not be a lot of fun........

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Originally Posted by NORRIS

I would recommend you speak to Chuck Stickley about your motor.
http://www.cssmotorsports.com/index.htm

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I try not to say anything negative on this forum, but, I have tried to contact Chuck Stickley several times and he has not returned my calls. Maybe he is trying to tell me something:shrug:

I always thought I was a good paying customer...............

I'm still looking for a BMW Engine Builder......

2007 North Carolina Region Driver of the Year
2007 SCCA SEDiv SARRC ITR Champion
Rickey T

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Originally Posted by NORRIS

Hey James.

Kevin's a good guy and all, but I would recommend you speak to Chuck Stickley about your motor.
http://www.cssmotorsports.com/index.htm

Chuck built the motor in my ITS/ITR 2 door 325 in 2003 and I'm still running it, It doesn't leak a drop of oil, it's given me no trouble whatsoever. And I'm on my second log book with that car, and that includes mostly double race weekends and one year I ran two run groups on double race weekends. You've seen the car run and you know it's not lacking for horsepower! It's the best money I've ever spent on that car. In fact Chuck's building a motor for my endurance car right now.

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Hey John,

Thanks for recommending Chuck. Unfortunety, this is going to be a ring, bearing, and valve job because the repair's are almost over budget. It should be ready by the beginning of next year, if we can find a new Chief of Tech. Are you going to show me the line in ITR next year??

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Originally Posted by Hotshoe

I try not to say anything negative on this forum, but, I have tried to contact Chuck Stickley several times and he has not returned my calls. Maybe he is trying to tell me something:shrug:

I always thought I was a good paying customer...............

I'm still looking for a BMW Engine Builder......

2007 North Carolina Region Driver of the Year
2007 SCCA SEDiv SARRC ITR Champion
Rickey T

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Hey Rickey,

Have you tried Sunbelt? They're in your area and are susposed to be the snizzle when it comes to BMW engines. A little further out in Delaware Ohio is Alan Jensen at ARJ racing at (740) 881-5291. He was the original builder of my motor and I think he did a great job with it. Out here in California is Brad at Evo-sport. Several club racers out here really swear by his work. Then in Northern California, Huffaker has been know to build a good motor. Good luck, I hope you find someone.

James

Rickey,

there's always Korman Motors in Greensboro. i think they are known for quality work.

hoop

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Originally Posted by Z3_GoCar

Then in Northern California, Huffaker has been know to build a good motor.

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Actually, I find that up here, Dave Rebello's name comes up more than any other.

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Originally Posted by JoshS

Actually, I find that up here, Dave Rebello's name comes up more than any other.

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Off-Camber Racing? The SM I almost bought belonged to Pete Hsu and was Rebello Powered. Josh, if you want a local guy, I'd recomend Bill Dvorak at Marino's Machine shop in Watsonville. He's slow, steady, and an AR. But that's what you want in an engine builder. I know they do motors for Ramon. Just don't tell him I sent you.

James

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hotshoe

I try not to say anything negative on this forum, but, I have tried to contact Chuck Stickley several times and he has not returned my calls. Maybe he is trying to tell me something:shrug:

I always thought I was a good paying customer...............

I'm still looking for a BMW Engine Builder......

2007 North Carolina Region Driver of the Year
2007 SCCA SEDiv SARRC ITR Champion
Rickey T

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Try just emailing him. He usually responds to email quicker than phone messages.:)

Low tension rings are common in engine performance.
With Low tension you gain top end power but lose the low end and some mid. Engine has to spin fast enough to compensate for extra leakage. The faster you spin, the less % is leaked.

The solution to the 4hrs is use of 4340 rings, Or anything hard. This would increase the wear on cylinder wall. However, the engine would have to be re bored. and walls prepped perfectly. The reason the 2nd ring in regular cars is soft, is to seal. The 2nd ring wears into the groves of the cylinder wall. Hard ring would not be able to do so.

There is larger loss in inertia in the piston and rod that in the rings. Rule 9.1.3.D.1.j prohibits weight reduction. So, low tension rings might get you 2-5HP if your engine spins up to 7K, and 4-8HP if spins to 9K, etc....

Question is: Is it worth the money to get those ~3HP, and sacrifice low end and some mid?