Toyo vs Hoosier

A thread on spec tires for SM here on the IT site reminds me that I've been meaning to ask a question about Toyo tires. Always looking to cut costs, I'm considering the Toyo RA1's for my ITB car. Everything I've read says the Toyos last longer than Hoosiers, but they are slower. But I can't seem to find the answer to the obvious question... exactly how much slower are they? Does anyone know of available hard data that will give me the difference in these two tires (RA1 vs R3S04), in terms of lap times on a typical IT car? And while I'm at it, I'll ask the other obvious question... how much longer do they last?

Please... no guesses, no generalizations, no second hand stories. Just good data. :)

Gary L.

My data is from a 2560 lb RWD ITS car with gobs of torque, ok horsepower.

I get about 2 full race weekends out of a set of Hoosiers. That means at least 8 heat cycles. After that, they REALLY drop off.

The last set of Toyos I had was in the 2003 season. They lasted all of 03 (4 race weekends), plus the first two events of 04.

The main difference in "speed" that I see is that Hoosiers tend to be a bit quicker when brand new, maybe a 1 second on my car, and then are more consistent as they get hot.

New Toyos feel good too, but you can overheat them and then grip goes way away.

Don't get me wrong, I like Toyos. Good tires. Hoosiers do "feel" quite a bit better until they give up the ghost, to the tune of a second or so when brand new and maybe a few more if the Toyos get too hot.

Gary-

I think that everyones thoughts that Hoosiers don't last long is not always what it seams... We ran my ITB Audi in the 3 hour Enduro at Watkins Glen long course last weekend with Hoosiers on it. We pushed as hard as we could without huge risks and the tires are not even close to half worn after the full 3 hours. The entire 3 hours the car was running close to Lap Record times (The 2 hour 50 minute mark was the fastes lap). I am planning on running those tires for the whole weekend at the NARRC Runoffs this weekend at Lime Rock as well.

A few things to note about the car... total weight 2500 lbs with 1,700 lbs being on the front wheels!!! The rear tires only have 800lbs on them and have been on the car for well over a full seasons worth, and still have just about full tread + a lot of "pickup" from the track.

The car used to burn through front tires in 8-9 laps at Lime Rock and NHIS. Obviosly we have figured out the suspension as the tires last just about as long as you want them to. Effectiveness I can't mention on... We run the tires till we get cords showing.. till then I can't tell when they "die off" and are "slower."

Raymond "Never ran the Toyo's and until they have track support like Hoosier then I think I will stay with the Winning tire :smilie_pokal: " Blethen

Raymond, good points.

One additional point, as someone made clear to me. It's not treadwear with Hoosiers (or any race tire), it is heat cycles. Your 3 hr Enduro was effectively ONE heatcycle.

I do think Hoosiers stay more consistent over their life, but when they go, they go. This happens, for me in a 2560 lb car, at about 8-10 heat cycles. The Toyos I ran in 2003 on my car, and the Toyos I have run the last two years on Spec Miatas, last many more heat cycles -- 15? 20? They just lose grip if they get hot.

If you like sacrificing about a second a lap (maybe even a bit more) enjoy your Toyos. Also, if you like some "greasiness" at times, enjoy your Toyos.

The Toyos do wear like iron, however. If your budget is real tight, however, consider the Kumho Victoracer.

The real question is what is the difference between the S04 and S05 Hoosiers and can they be mixed?

Data from last years' arrc...

The new Hoosiers last about 6 hours of single weekend running with some drop-off. About 1 sec from new to cord.

Toyos on same car but with different driver seem to last around 10 - 11 hours.

The hoosier data is from the guy who won the ARRC enduro last year. The toyo is my own data. Both spec miatas.

The point is really moot for Spec miata as the spec tire next year will be toyo

Good Point Jeff...


Here is a good question for those that have tested :-P Is a used (worn out) Hoosier still faster than a Toyo?

I think it depends a lot on the car also... For example it seems that most of the more Horsepower RWD cars seem to like Goodyears, while the FWD less HP IT guys seem to like Hoosiers.

Raymond

I can't give you actual concrete data, as there are too many variables in my racing history. I've run Yokohama's, Toyo's, Comp TA's, Kumho's, and Hoosiers on my Honda. All of the "street-comp" tires are/were excellent in handling and durability. The Hoosiers are so much better in handling, breaking, and acceleration from a turn that I use them almost exclusively. The exception to that is for a 6 hr enduro we run in November. We usually wear out at leat 2 tires (down to cord) during that event, so it's simply more economical to run the Kumhos. We almost never have any competition other than the clock, and it's almost always bad weather.

The shaved Kumhos make an excellent dry to damp to wet weather tire. The price is good, but not cheap, and they last well with proper maintenance. Plus, I can get them in a lower profile than the others.

The Hoosiers and the Kumhos are both really susceptable to heat cycles. Durability isn't really any different. I've run the same set of Hoosiers that were new in March through 8 races this year inclusive of practice sessions and qualifying. At least one of them was a 1.5 hour enduro. They have one race left in them before being replaced. I cross them after each day to keep the wear even, and it seems to work. While they are not as good as new, I have a hard time reaching their limit without doing something stupid.

Biggest difference is price. Are you trying to go fast on a budget, or are you trying to go fast to win? I used to go for the budget, but winning was so much more fun. ;)

Last year when I spoke the Hoosier rep at StL he told me not to mix 04's & 05"s on the same axel. :018: It seems the 05's are suppose to have better grip. You may want to mix them front to rear. If car is loose put the 05's on the back and 04's on the front. If tight go the other way. I don't know if it will work or just make the care EVIL. :119:

Enduro comparisons...

We ran Toyos at the VIR 13 hours (2004) and Hoosiers at the Summit 12 hours (2005). Conditions at Summit were hotter and the race in both cases was dry.

I used to buy into the "Toyos last longer" story but after both events, we actually used less rubber off of the Hoosiers. We had 8 tires in both cases and changed them as they looked like they needed it. I flatspotted one Hoosier badly - they aren't necessarily easier to lock up, they just don't howl about it like the Toyos, I think, so it's an easier mistake to make.

One potentially significant difference is that, while the tires were the same 225 width, they Hoosiers are in fact wider. Putting more rubber on the road makes for lower loads and better mileage, I think.

The Hoosiers sure felt a lot faster - more balanced and you could lean harder on them - but we didn't do any back-to-back testing to know for sure.

K

EDIT - talk to Phil at Phils's Tire Service. He sells both and can probably give you some actual numbers for some cars that he knows.

Thanks to everyone for their input, quite a variety of experiences. It appears the difference in lap times between the 2 tires is not as great as I had imagined, but the difference in longevity may not be as great as I had been led to believe either. If I've extrapolated and interpreted all this correctly, it appears the real difference in wear may be in the number of available heat cycles, with the nod going to the Toyo's.

I do agree with 8 to 10 cycles being the "good" life of an S04... that's been precisely my experience. But I do believe they fall off more than a second per lap; my data would indicate something approaching double that.

I have not used hoosiers, but have lots of experience on toyo.

This is on a 944 134 rwhp and 2600 lbs with driver 225/50 at all 4 corners.

I have gotten somewhere between 35 to 48 heat cycles from my last 4-5 sets of toyos. I typically throw them out when they lose grip. I only have corded tires that I have flat spotted.

I do rotate the 4 tires after each track day (3-4 heat cycles) to keep the wear rate even on the tires. For my car their grip (shave to 4/32 or full depth) starts off pretty piss poor for the first heat cycle. Then they get better over the next 4-8 heat cycles. By this time they really look "worn down" but are just now in their sweet spot and are race ready for the next 25-40 heat cycles.

The as they get closer to cycling out they have 2-3 super cycles. These are sessions where the seem very edgey. Their grip window is very narrow, but very good. So if you can manage to keep the car on track they will put down their best laps. One slight error and you have spun off. This rather odd as most of the time they very progressive. Anyway you get 2-3 of these supercycles and then they just give up and peak is gone and all you get is slip.

Everything I have heard and seen says hoosiers under hard use only last one or two weekends. I have heard of folking getting years out of hoosiers, but it might be because they don't drive them hard. I drive my toyo's very hard inspite of my long life with them.

Joe - More good info, thanks. I do have one question... Can I assume you're running the 225/50's on 7 inch wide wheels?

"I have gotten somewhere between 35 to 48 heat cycles from my last 4-5 sets of toyos."

Joe, are you saying a total of 35-48 on 4-5 sets or 35-48 on each set? If the latter, which the rest of your post suggests, that is the most astonishing thing I have heard in all my years of racing. :119: I used to run Toyos on my ITS RX-7 but I don't think I ever went past a dozen sessions. Please clarify.

I know this poster wanted numbers, direct experiences, and no rumours or innuendo...so thats what I'll add, LOL!

Actually, we've run this question up the IT.com flagpole before, and....

The data points seemed to fall like this:

Hoosiers drove better and felt better...they are a "real" racing tire, so to speak, although they tend to flat spot more easily

Toyos are great, but re not in the same league "Feelwise".

The actual problem with the tires is rarely running out of tread, except in enduros, but rather running out of fast laps. Heat cycling determines the "life" of these tires.

Toyos have been reported to be a tad greasy at the start, but then settle in to consistant times for about 20-25 heat cycles, often getting marginally faster for the leter cycles.

(I think the term "heat cycle" can be defined as anytime the tire gets to it's designed temp...so if you have a 3 lap race that gets red flagged, it's considered a heat cycle", and represents the same amount of life gone as a 40 lap race would. Most consider the tire to be "gone" when it starts losing a second and a half per lap or so)

Hoosiers are generally thought to have about 7 - 10 heat cycles in them.

Caveats include: Exceptional care and feeding of Hoosiers is reported to extend their life to as much as 12 heat cycles. Hoosiers are wider than their size number suggests, so they can perform better, or you can stress them less and run the same times extending their enduro life, as Kirk pointed out above.

So, my understanding, going in, was Hoosiers, 7-10 cycles, 1.25 seconds or so faster than Toyos on a 1:30 track. Toyos, 20-25 heatcycles, slow at the start, fastest at the end.

great thread. It was the determining factor for my second tire purchase of my racing career. I had the kumho victoracer 700's for about 30 heat cycles before they corded. Went ahead and ordered up some Toyo's. Might as well go with the cheaper and longer lasting tire until I'm within a second or so of the leaders.

I have raced all three in the last 2 years, hoosiers, toyos and kumhos in that order on an ITC scirocco. Hoosiers seem to to be in all of our books close to second a lap faster than the toyos. We bought the toyos to cuts costs as well, and I have to be honest that I was not impressed with the toyo life. It was my understanding that toyo changed the compound sometime in the last year to a softer compound, I am not saying they are not the longest lasting tire, just not as much as they use to be a couple years back. I really do not think that the toyos are as slow as people make them out to be, I think they just feel different than the hoosiers, so you are use to driving hoosiers and then you put on toyos your immediate reaction would be, "whoa these dont grip". Like all tires most are driven differently and require different setups.

We have since moved to the kumhos 710s because of the contingency mostly, but in our first few races, I think the first 3 heat cycles are faster than the toyo or the hoosier. After the 3 heat cycles kumhos still have plent of tread but they drop off dramatically about 1.5 second slower.

For the money the toyo is a great tire, it is very consistent, and it does offer a longer tread life. We still have a set and probably will use them at certain tracks.


Derek Ketchie

I've done the Toyo and Hoosier thing. Only autocrossed of the Kumhos so I'll leave them out.

IMO the Hoosier isn't as much as a full second faster than a well shaved Toyo (3/32ish, but the lower the better). Its more like .3 to .5 seconds. And at some tracks, the Toyo seems to be faster. I was faster at Roebling Road (same car, same day) on Toyos than I was on Hoosiers. Lots of people also run Toyos at places like Lowes and Daytona due to less rolling resistance.

To me, the thing about the Hoosier is the feel and the confidence. I feel I don't have to hustle the car as much to get it to do what I want it to do, it just kind of does it. Hard to explain really unless you are talking to an experienced Hoosier guy, they are likely to say "yeah, i know what you mean."

The 04s wear alot better than the old 03s and don't fall completely away at cycle 8 like the old tires did. I'm getting a minimum of 12 competitive heat cycles on my Civic, and then start using those tires for practice and test days.
As long as you rotate 2 sets of wheels, and never use the "good" tires for sessions that aren't on the clock or for a trophy, you can make Hoosiers last.

Quote:

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Originally posted by bldn10@Oct 22 2005, 09:55 AM
"I have gotten somewhere between 35 to 48 heat cycles from my last 4-5 sets of toyos."

Joe, are you saying a total of 35-48 on 4-5 sets or 35-48 on each set? If the latter, which the rest of your post suggests, that is the most astonishing thing I have heard in all my years of racing. :119: I used to run Toyos on my ITS RX-7 but I don't think I ever went past a dozen sessions. Please clarify.

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I run these 225/50's on 15x7" wheels.

I meant 35-48 heat cycles on each set of tires.

I checked my tire data base (I record all heat cycles put in to my tires since 2000)

My First toyo's 8/32 - (Nov 02 - July03)
Total 48 Heat cycles, Of those 13 were races (approx 6.5 hrs)

Second Set 8/32 (Feb 03- Feb 04)
Total 39 heat cycles, of those 12 were races (approx 6 hrs)

Third Set 4/32 shaved (Sept 03 - Sept 04)
Total 34 heat cycles, of those 8 were races (approx 7.5hrs)

4th Set - 8/32 (Feb 04 - Current)
Current Heat Cycles Total 24, 7 of those races (3.5hrs)
Driver error induced flat spots on 2 tires. Other two still good

5th St - 4/32 Shave (Feb 05 - Current)
Currnet Heat Cycles 24, 3 of those races (1.5hrs)
Driver induced flat spots on 2 tires. Other two still good.


Note my last 2 sets of Kumho Victoracers lasted my 15 (Sept- Nov 02) and 18 (April -Oct 02) heat cylces (4 races) till they corded.

Toyo has not changed the compoud on their RA-1's They did however change their treadwear marking on the sidewall. It had been 40 and is not 100. No change in the tires at all however.

Lots of great information which mostly correlates with my experiences. I've raced competitively in both a GTI Cup and ITB Capri on Toyos, Kumhos, Hoosier 03s and 04s and Goodyear GSCS tires.

Toyos - approx 1.5 to 2 secs/lap slower on a 2:10 laptime track called Thunderhill. There are quite a few sweeping turns that keep the car at the edge of traction through 90 degrees and the Hoosier/Goodyear just grips so much better. At a technical transition track like Sears Point (Infineon), the difference is closer to 1 to 1.5 seconds. BTW, I've been racing GTI Cup this year and my newest Toyo was manufactured in the year 2000 and they still work great. I don't know how many heat cycles but I got them all used from a retired racer. The grip seems to drop off just before they start to cord.

Hoosiers - 04s work a bit better but I think that is because I have to use a 6 inch wide rim. 03s are just as fast when I put them on 7 inch wide rims. Even with careful tire breakin, I find that the tires are noticeably slower on the 6th heat cycle. By the 8th heat cycle, they are about 2 secs/lap slower and go away pretty early in a race. I might also mention that I notice very little tire wear. After 6 heat cycles, tires are barely worn.

Goodyears - same speed as the Hoosiers and tire wear is more noticeable. Tire life seems to be better than the Hoosiers and they are more resistant to flat spotting. I've run them up to 8 heat cycles when they look pretty worn.

Kumhos - wear seems 25+% faster than the Toyos and lap times are about the same on the Capri. Kumhos seem faster on my FWD GTI but I don't have any hard data. I prefer the Toyos overall as compared to Kumhos.

I'm running the NASA 25 hour enduro in my Capri this year and I will be using up all my 6 heat cycles Hoosiers and Goodyears!

I should also mention that when I say 6th heat cycle, I had already counted the breakin as the 1st heat cycle so these tires are basically finished in one weekend if one wants to win. Of course, they are used for 2 weekends to allow them to cool and properly break in .