E36 + 300 pounds

Those of you that have built and/or race E36 325is, in your opinion, how much effect would an additional 300 pounds of weight have on lap times. I realize this is a wide open question, and there are tons of variable that come into play. I've heard this number thrown around and I just want to hear what those of you familiar with the car think. What would the result be on an E36 that runs 1:26s at Summit Point or 1:44 at Mid Ohio. The BMWCCA has recently moved the E36 from KP to JP instead of adding weight to the car. The 300 lbs is the number they were thinking about.

Why 300 lbs? The ballast alone would disqualify any already-built car.

As to your question: my guess (can't be scientific) is that this would put the E36s at the back of the pack (where the E30s are). Maybe add 1.5-2 seconds? Both acceleration and handling would suffer a lot. At Road America it might be 3-4s?

As to adding this much weight, the rules would have to be revised to allow more than 200 lbs of lead. My car weighs 2850 with a passenger seat, full tank of gas (start of the race) and my large but. I don't think I could add that many interior trim pieces to make it up.

The BMW issue is really different (and goes to the politics of the organizers of BMW CR, and protecting their cars--oh maybe this is the same issue as in IT?). Classes were revised up to give/maintain advantages to certain cars.

In revising the CR classes, the breaks were arbitrary (according to the ratios-some are big, others small)...so they made sure the E30M3 was at the very top of J class (J-14.2 lb/hp) and that the E30 325 was at the top of K class (K at 16.7 lb/hp).

I class is tiny (12.5-13.9) to ensure the E30M3 stays in J, which they stretched (14.0-16.6) to ensure the E36-325 now fell into the range, but excluded everything BUT E30-325s(ask yourself why ".6" and not ".5"?). K class then reverts back to a tighter range (16.7-18.9).

On the weights BMWCCA chose to use, they are also the arbitrary #s BMW used, which vary every year (representing an "average" model w/ bundled accesories). Obviously, over time the weight of accessories/stuff (such as sound insulation) has increased dramatically...which should be excluded in comparing cars at "race" weight.

Dan

[This message has been edited by m3ltw (edited February 25, 2003).]

300 pounds would put the car at the back of the pack. Initial lap times would suffer, but there would be part failures and huge brake/tire fade issues. On the other hand, we could probably punt the rest of the competition off the track...

240 pounds in the WC GT Porsches caused a high rate of failures from the added weight. These are racecars, not sleds! WC decided to start using restrictor plates to even up the cars (drivers?) to eliminate excessive ballast.

BMW CR is not a good example. There were very few well prepared E30 cars running in KP, none that would win in SCCA consistently. In JP, the E36 is competitive only because the guys in the M3s haven't done enough development. BMW CR had a lot of E30 cars and I agree with their decision for that organization. It is not fun for the E30 guys with about $15k in their cars to fight for 2nd or 3rd place against the E36 ITS cars that show up fully prepared to win in SCCA with as much as 3x the investment. This promotes the club atmosphere where there are 15+ classes with maybe 30 cars as an average per weekend and the emphasis isn't on winning but having fun. There is no reason to pull the E36 down to be competitive with the E30 which is running midpack and not competitive with the other top cars from other manufacturers.

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James Clay
http://www.bimmerworld.com
Engineered BMW Performance
World Challenge/SCCA/BMWCCA Racecar Rental
Genuine OEM and Used BMW Parts
(540) 639-9648
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Ok, I have to ask.
James, its pretty obvious that the E36 is
dominant if well prepared and well driven. I think 300 pounds is excessive, but it would be nice if there was no 'top dog'.

If you were king, and didn't have a vested interest, what would you suggest?

Tom Donnelly

In ITS....
I think the 944 should lose weight, the 240z should stay the same, as should the RX7.
The E30 might deserve a diet as well.
And I think the E36 should gain some weight or run a restrictor plate or something.

I'd like to see a more diverse field of cars.

[This message has been edited by Tom Donnelly (edited February 25, 2003).]

Hmmmm, if I were king...

Well, I suppose I would probably have performance evaluations every year and make competition adjustments based on these if I had the time and was really interested in making the classes 100% competitive. I would look at the region's championship race and possibly series. This would be results based. I would also investigate and add a little bit of a subjective factor so if the only VW (example) that was running wasn't developed at all, it wouldn't get much weight dropped off.

Unfortunately in the SE, an RX-7 won the SIC race and a 240 won the ARRC. I think an RX-7 won over E36 cars and the rest in the NE and a 240 wins in CA. All this would say the E36 should lose weight in my system. But the Acura, Honda, VW, Triumph, 944, etc will also lose weight and probably more than the E36.

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James Clay
http://www.bimmerworld.com
Engineered BMW Performance
World Challenge/SCCA/BMWCCA Racecar Rental
Genuine OEM and Used BMW Parts
(540) 639-9648
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Unfortunately... a 240 won the ARRC????????

Now you wouldn't be letting any bias enter into your position now would you?? :-)

I think everyone knows the truth is the E-36's were eliminated on a technicality and dominated the ARRC from beginning to end, right?

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Dennis Voss
ITS #4
Porsche 944

No, I am 100% serious and this isn't sour grapes. When you have a system in place like this, you can't come back and say "well x model would have dominated the race if _____ didn't happen." It is racing and all that matters is the final results and unfortunately stuff happens.

The goal if I were working on this would be to take as much objectivity out of it as possible - remember that is what everyone is complaining about in the first place - an objective decision that their car should weigh a certain amount. Unfortuantely, the E36 cars didn't have finishing positions at the ARRC so there is no basis for adding weight to them under this system - they couldn't get the job done last year. And don't forget the other races and regions...

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James Clay
http://www.bimmerworld.com
Engineered BMW Performance
World Challenge/SCCA/BMWCCA Racecar Rental
Genuine OEM and Used BMW Parts
(540) 639-9648
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James,
Are you practicing for a career as a sit-com writer? You're last two post are quite funny.

You see his point, though, right? When Randy Pobst leads the field by a half lap but blows up 500 yards from the finish, he doesnt have any rewards weight added. Micheal Galati gets the rewards weight as he won the race. In fact, Randy may have weight removed as he gets passed by 10 other guys that finished. Ironic, but its results driven. There's the rub. If it was purely subjective, and you have someone saying that car seems to be too fast...slow it down it could get ugly. Especially if it ends up as your car. The e36 probably seems pretty clear to you, but he makes a valid point on how most other series react with comp adjustments.

No, actually I don't see his point. i wasn't talking about lead trophies based on finishing position. I was talking about adding weight to level out the HP:weight ratio. Saying that the E36 isn't a superior car because they mounted their ballast in the wrong spot is ridiculous. I My intent when starting this thread was to see what the additional weight would do to the E36's performance. To take that idea one step farther, what if the wait was added in where ever you wanted to put it?

You can't just talk about the last race you were at - you need to look at general trends. And the competition doesn't need to be leveled between the E36 and the E30, but all cars so why add weight to the E36 to bring it to E30 level. And yes, this needs to be done on finishing position. The ARRC was a fluke and things will work themselves out, but remember if my system was adopted, you would get to shake it up a year later anyway. And BTW, my system won't be adopted and things won't be changed because SCCA has made their intentions perfectly clear about comp adjustments.

I mean absolutely no disrespect and we work on all BMWs, not just E36 cars and I would really love to see an E30 be competitive again. But it isn't now and to try to yank the E36 down to not be competitive with it is absolutely wrong. As an E30 driver, why not jump on the RX-7s, 240s, and Integras that are also faster instead of setting your sights on only the E36?

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James Clay
http://www.bimmerworld.com
Engineered BMW Performance
World Challenge/SCCA/BMWCCA Racecar Rental
Genuine OEM and Used BMW Parts
(540) 639-9648
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My goal isn't to yank the E36 down to the E30. The E36 should have never been classified as an ITS car. So what does the SCCA do now, the classify the 944S as an ITS car. So now we have E30 BMWs and 944 Prsches being out classed by their successors. Why not another IT class? If the SCCA would create another nationally recognized IT class for cars to fast for ITS, that would solve the problem. It would also stop all of the fragmenting into all these differnt classes. I'm sure there are other cars that could be in the same class as a 944S and E36. Heck, you guys could run competitively in AS.

If the E36 should never have been classified in ITS, then what cars should have been? Are only cars that can't win allowed?

At some point, for a series to survive you need to have some recent vehicles (BMW or not) that are competitive. Otherwise, no one will want to join.

If the E36 was never added to ITS, this discussion would be identical, but directed instead at RX-7s (specifically, but not exclusively, Speedsource RX-7s).

Dan

Why don't we argue over other unfortunate realities like how unfair it is that really well prepared no-expense-spared cars from professional shops have a tendancy to be faster than low cost junkyard refugees, or how someone with three laps under their belt should be just as fast as a ten year veteran because of their HUGE talent and years of preparation on Play Station.

OK - just having a bit of fun there, but seriously: I think it is true that E36s and 944S's probably should not have been dropped in the existing ITS structure as they do make most of the cars there instantly obsolete. On the other hand, it's really just hoping that you get lucky and pick right and your competitors pick wrong. There are ALWAYS one or two cars that tend to be dominant in a class, and you have to hope that you are either driving one or have the money to switch if you want to win consistantly. Eliminate the three most dominant models, and then you get to start a thread on how unfair it is that the fouth best car is now dominating the class. Short of ridiculous amounts of season long weight or restrictor adjustment and minute scruitineering this is just NOT going to become IT-IROC any time soon. If you are interested in everyone driving the same car with different paint jobs maybe one of the spec series is more your style.........like, NASCAR maybe. http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

(No offence to anyone - just yappin')

Quote:

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Originally posted by James Clay:
Unfortuantely, the E36 cars didn't have finishing positions at the ARRC so there is no basis for adding weight to them under this system - they couldn't get the job done last year.

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Uuhhh....James, are you forgetting the ARRC enduro? Didn't your car finish 1st by over a lap? How much weight should that win carry in the overall scheme of things?

If your car loses out in a closely contested race at the SIC, but dominates both races at the ARRC (regardless that you couldn't get through tech), are you simply calling it even? That is pretty funny.

Let us also not forget that Kip's car, when owned and driven by Dino Steiner, did mighty damage to the SpeedSource cars way back in '99 and '00. So much so that Mr. Tremblay wanted to send them home in boxes. And that was before a lot of the go-fast goodies were available for the E36 and the ECU rule was also not in effect.

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Chris Wire
Team Wire Racing
ITS Mazda RX7 #35
[email protected]