More punishment please - Lotus Esprit S2/1-Class?

Because I clearly need more punishment for my sins of fooling with Brit cars, if I build a Lotus Esprit S1 or S2 where would it be classed?

The car uses my favorite engine I love to hate, the Lotus 907 which, incidentally, is used in the Jensen. In the S1 it is rated at 130hp and in the S2 it is rated at 160hp. Weights are in the mid to upper 2000lb range.

Maybe I shouldn't sit around and drink and come up with more crazy race car ideas. But, at the airport where my flying club is there is a S2 Esprit in pieces and a Mini rally car, both are in need of a home. And I'm a sucker for an unloved British car.

Before the ITAC gets overwhelmed drive an Esprit. I've owned one and driven a few and they don't handle as well as you think they will. Think heavy MR2 with wider footprint but lots of quirky British parts bin engineered bits like suspension arms and brakes - it ain't pretty. I'm thinking ITA for the S1 for sure (probably where my JH needs to be), ITS for the S2.

R

Ron - step away from the Guinness! You can do it. We're here to help you through this difficult time.

K

Ron, I am amazed at your ability to forge ahead with so many coool projects. I wish I lived closer so some of your capabilities could wear off on me! (Ok, renovating an old Victorian might have some effect on my race car prep time, LOL)

Anyway, I would LOVE to see you out in that car.

Tell me more..is it a well documented car? Did it come with the same parts for an entire model year? Are the specs realistic?

If so, send in a proposal!

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Originally posted by lateapex911@Nov 8 2005, 11:32 PM
Ron, I am amazed at your ability to forge ahead with so many coool projects. I wish I lived closer so some of your capabilities could wear off on me! (Ok, renovating an old Victorian might have some effect on my race car prep time, LOL)

Anyway, I would LOVE to see you out in that car.

Tell me more..is it a well documented car? Did it come with the same parts for an entire model year? Are the specs realistic?

If so, send in a proposal!

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Looks like Jake bypassed the mandatory drug test before joining the ITAC. :P

first ron, I want to be you when i grow up. and on top of that it would be cool to watch the lotus in IT, but the success of IT demands that the cars that are compeitive are easy to come by donors. It would kill the class if a hard to find car was percieved as the car to have for a IT class. so while I have no proplem with the club classing a semi exotic the car to have can not be a lotus or a jensen or a TR8.

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Originally posted by dickita15@Nov 9 2005, 12:35 PM
. so while I have no proplem with the club classing a semi exotic the car to have can not be a lotus or a jensen or a TR8.

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But Dick, we're getting on with our development and we're working toward that goal! All you guys will have to drive Brit cars to run upfront, that is the final solution! :smilie_pokal:

Heck, it is cheaper to procure a JH or TR8 and build compared to a $40k BMW. Of course, you run upfront in the $40k BMW and don't run much in the TR8 or JH. But that doesn't build character, it just empties your wallet. Anyone can build a BMW, it takes a special sucker to attempt a JH, TR8, or Lotus.

The TR8 is coming along and the motor is probably done with development and it is now time to concentrate on handling. We got to to make over 185 ft/lbs of torque at the rear wheel with two plug wires, 5/7, crossed. Imagine when the dummies behind the wheel don't cross plug wires.....probably around 200-210 ft/lbs I'd imagine, maybe more.

The JH is going back in for minor surgery on the head but should be back out for Jan timeframe. If the head had been good, and the dummy (me) hadn't buttoned it up without checking it, the car would have run in August. But, then a Miata was found for cheap and car #43 was born from August 1st to October 3rd and she actually ran in the 13 hour enduro this past weekend. We've been busy!

http://www.gt40s.com/images/miata/Mi...ishedsmall.jpg

http://forum.specmiata.com/cgi-bin/ultimat...=1;t=001842;p=0

Now, as far as building these things, guys, you got to quit messing with those houses and restoring them. All you can do is live in a house, that isn't much good. You can live in a garage AND build cars in one, so which one is better?

R

Ron, you'll be happy to know I shoveled snow OUT of my attic (soon to be 3rd floor) last winter...but my garage/shop VCT flloring remained snow free..

If I didn't know better, I'd swear you were a bachelor!

On the Lotus, I will admit that sentimentaly, I want it on the track, but we have to be careful in the classing. Dick is right, that we can't flub it up and have it become the car to have.

That said, NO car should be the car to have, LOL.

Anyway, get the specs together and lets talk.

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Originally posted by lateapex911@Nov 10 2005, 12:52 AM
Ron, you'll be happy to know I shoveled snow OUT of my attic (soon to be 3rd floor) last winter...but my garage/shop VCT flloring remained snow free..

If I didn't know better, I'd swear you were a bachelor!
Anyway, get the specs together and lets talk.

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Nope, I'm not a bachelor, just quite focused and efficient in the garage. I don't have huge blocks of time, generally, but if you go and chip away 30 minutes at a time you can get things done.

Snow, what's that? It was 78F here today. You guys are quite silly and persistent to live up there in those snowy climates.

It'd be cool to have the Lotus on track, but it sort of highlights something I'd thought whilst looking through SportsCar tonight.

The SCCA is not, at all, catering to young people. I'm 37 and am a relatively young SCCA racer except for the really young guys racing spec racer Ford and a few others. Look through the pictures of cars that win - old, old, old cars that guys in their 20s can't even identify. Hell, I can't identify some of them and I'm decidedly more English car friendly than the average person.

And the winners aren't youngsters either. There are some exceptions in T classes and AS, but by and large, it is a club for old cars. Not sure I want to contribute to that image but here I am with a 30+ year old JH, considering a Lotus, and wrench on a TR8 regularly. For now I'll just focus on the JH and *think* about a Lotus, the one I know isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

I've mentioned it before, but I often try to recruit members into the SCCA. Jeff and I have been successful getting three new guys interested in racing next year as we're going to pool and build them a (another build!) Miata. They managed our crew for two cars in the just completed 13 hour enduro with #43 and #39. But, they are 45, 46, and 42 respectively - they aren't youngsters. I've tried to get a couple of young mechanics at two shops I frequent and have dropped Sportscar there as well as a GCR. But, the cars do not really interest them. One was interested in a AS Camaro (possible) and the other running a Supra late model NA (not possible, at least, not possible in a popular and competitive class).

Jeff went to a NASA event recently to get track time to debug the TR8. I couldn't go so I missed it, but he indicated the average age is probably up to 10 years younger. Much more, well I don't know a better word, "import" culture friendly as far as rules go thus they attract the younger racers. Unfortunately, it sounds as if NASA has too many classes to the extent that it is very specific "Red 944 Cup" and "White 944 Cup" or "Honduh w/Wing" and "Honduh w/o Wing". Just kidding, but you get the concept, at least as explained to me. I'll have to try one sometime.

Sorry for the rant and off topic. It is just I see and meet lots of car people who do have the money to race, but they don't know how nor do they get attracted. I was exactly the same 1.5 years ago until I met an SCCA racer who took the time to explain it to me. Wish I'd known that when I was 25, but a bunch of spridgets, sprites, etc. in production that I saw pictures of in magazines didn't do it for me so I never pursued it. Wish I would have, I'd have been here much earlier.

Anyhow, I'll leave the Lotus on the side due to general principles for the moment. Got to get my butt in the garage and pull my Jensen Wheezy motor. Besides, the GT40 will be back before long requiring money infusion to get her running and those two Jag V12s I picked up for an XJ13 project (The Sports Car Factory) need some work too - Rich will have chassis and bodies produced in the spring!

R

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Originally posted by dickita15@Nov 9 2005, 08:35 AM
first ron, I want to be you when i grow up. and on top of that it would be cool to watch the lotus in IT, but the success of IT demands that the cars that are compeitive are easy to come by donors. It would kill the class if a hard to find car was percieved as the car to have for a IT class. so while I have no proplem with the club classing a semi exotic the car to have can not be a lotus or a jensen or a TR8.

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And it appears Dick has been drinking the Cool-Aid...

:)

AB

Ron,

I for one appreciate your observations. If you will, let me add a few of my own. To some it may sound like excuses or whatever, but they are not meant to be. I think most in the SCCA really would like to attract younger members.

As it relates to older cars, one of issues is a conundrum of sorts. Fairly newer cars are much more expensive to source as a basis for a race car. This does not lend itself to younger drivers unless their disposable income is way out of wack with the typical 20 somthing. Shoot, a less than 5 year old car would put racing out of reach for me and I have no kids and have a good job (controller for company performing services for oil and gas drilling). I am not against newish (< 5 years old) cars in the SCCA, but I&#39;m against them in IT because of the above.

I know there are a lot of youngsters who have spent a small fortune on their cars. But those are their road cars and I dare say, most of them are into the bling or like being pretend racers. Real racers may ball up their cars. The "pretend" racers want their cars to be show cars.

How this relates to NASA (purely IMHO)...

I think NASA has tapped well into two distinct markets. The first is they will basically add any class you can provide a few cars for. All you have to do it to get a few buddies together and agree to race and NASA will make a class for you. YOU do all the work creating the rules and policing them and they are happy to give you a place to run. I know this is how SE-R Cup, 944 Cup, and Spec 944 were created. I know because I either personally know the people who created those classes or have spoken with them about these classes. For sure this is was an untapped market, especially the way IT was headed where there were huge mis-matches within the class and no way to correct it. I think with the changes already made in IT and those proposed, we will see dramatically less participation in spec racing (although I doubt it will ever go away).

My observation is that NASA doesn&#39;t really have much in the way of truly national classes. OK, they will run any class anywhere in the country, but with a few exceptions, participation in their classes tends to be a localized thing. I mean shoot, they even have 944 Cup and Spec 944. They are on opposite coasts and this supports my belief that they will just create any class for any group willing to run.

The other distinct market they have tapped into is the DE market. OK, yes, there are many DE groups out there. But NASA is not dedicated to a single marque and they run their races along with DEs and that is attractive to the "pretend" racer. I&#39;ve been to a couple of NASA events here in TX and this is what I observed and it meshes with things I&#39;ve read in several places.

I&#39;m not in any way trying to diss NASA. They are doing a great job with what they do and with the creation of their own national championships they will either take a HUGE step forward or they will step on their Johnson and fall on their face. I&#39;m very interested in seeing what happens at Mid-O next year. If NASA is able to use this as a springboard to truly national classes they will become a forece to be be reckoned with in amateur racing. If not, they will probably just be a national organization that really only has a few regoins where they have some strength.

Back to how this relates to the younger potential racer. I don&#39;t think there is much of anything we can do to capture the guy/gal who wants to be a "pretend" racer short of starting a national DE program which in and of itself would be a great thing, but probably would tax already thin resources. The "pretend" racer is happy with what they are doing. I think creating classes for newish cars will not attract the younger racer. Most of those who have the money will continue to be satisfied with the "pretend" bit. Those without the money just won&#39;t have the money. Oh yeah, and the "pretend" racer won&#39;t want to give up money from their car to buy a suitable tow beast and trailer.

So, that leaves us the folks who are participating in the various NASA spec classes. I think the ITAC is on the right track to make IT a suitable alternative again. At least I sure hope we are. It is this issue that changed my mind on where IT needed to go from where it was 2-3 years ago.

I am always intersted however in ways we can attract the 20 something who would like to race. As always we need to do a better job of it.

BTW, my discussion of the "pretend" racer should in NO WAY be seen as dissing DE programs. They are great and serve a purpose and certainly are all some people desire. However, think about how many people you may know who refer to their DE car as a race car and/or refer to DE as racing to their friends. That is the group I&#39;m referring to.

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Originally posted by rlearp@Nov 11 2005, 10:33 AM
The SCCA is not, at all, catering to young people. I&#39;m 37 and am a relatively young SCCA racer except for the really young guys racing spec racer Ford and a few others. Look through the pictures of cars that win - old, old, old cars that guys in their 20s can&#39;t even identify. Hell, I can&#39;t identify some of them and I&#39;m decidedly more English car friendly than the average person.

And the winners aren&#39;t youngsters either. There are some exceptions in T classes and AS, but by and large, it is a club for old cars. Not sure I want to contribute to that image but here I am with a 30+ year old JH, considering a Lotus, and wrench on a TR8 regularly. For now I&#39;ll just focus on the JH and *think* about a Lotus, the one I know isn&#39;t going anywhere anytime soon.

I&#39;ve mentioned it before, but I often try to recruit members into the SCCA. Jeff and I have been successful getting three new guys interested in racing next year as we&#39;re going to pool and build them a (another build!) Miata. They managed our crew for two cars in the just completed 13 hour enduro with #43 and #39. But, they are 45, 46, and 42 respectively - they aren&#39;t youngsters. I&#39;ve tried to get a couple of young mechanics at two shops I frequent and have dropped Sportscar there as well as a GCR. But, the cars do not really interest them. One was interested in a AS Camaro (possible) and the other running a Supra late model NA (not possible, at least, not possible in a popular and competitive class).

Jeff went to a NASA event recently to get track time to debug the TR8. I couldn&#39;t go so I missed it, but he indicated the average age is probably up to 10 years younger. Much more, well I don&#39;t know a better word, "import" culture friendly as far as rules go thus they attract the younger racers. Unfortunately, it sounds as if NASA has too many classes to the extent that it is very specific "Red 944 Cup" and "White 944 Cup" or "Honduh w/Wing" and "Honduh w/o Wing". Just kidding, but you get the concept, at least as explained to me. I&#39;ll have to try one sometime.


R

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To follow on Geo&#39;s thoughts, from a different perspective:

I disagree whole-heartedly that the SCCA is not catering to young people. They are just doing it in a more &#39;logical&#39; manner...here is what I mean. Young people for the most part don&#39;t have money. So AutoX is the best form of racing available to them. I was part of a group that saw the need and conceptualized the Street Touring class. It has since exploded to include STSport, STXtreme, STUltra; plus Street Modified 1 and 2. These classes were created to cater to the import croud...

The SCCA has a TON of classes. What other organization can you basically take the car in your back yard and turn it into a semi-competitive racecar? I submit none. Besides, in almost every Region, you can run your winged-ITR-powered Civic in ITE or SPU with the proper safety equipment. Now what NASA has done is carved out some nice niches where, in some cases SCCA has failed (SE-R) and some cases where the car just isn&#39;t the &#39;car to have&#39; (944). Hopefully the direction the SCCA has headed over the past couple years will, at the very least, show the SCCA as a legitimate option.

So what does that mean? It means the SCCA is way more - to way more people than any other amature racing organization in the country. NASA has it&#39;s loyal followers - because it caters to small groups, and from what I can see, does a great job. I think there is - and will always be - room for those two types of organizations to co-exist.

I started with the SCCA 15 years ago this month. I am 35 now. I submit I am the &#39;poster child&#39; for what it&#39;s all about. Local AutoX, National AutoX, then Road Racing - with a little TSD Rally thrown in for S&G here and there. All along the way I have Chaired races, served on local and National committies as well as my Region&#39;s BoD.

In today&#39;s internet age, if you know of something you might like to get into, the info is out there...and with the SCCA, the options are abundant.

AB

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Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Nov 11 2005, 04:23 PM
To follow on Geo&#39;s thoughts, from a different perspective:

I disagree whole-heartedly that the SCCA is not catering to young people. They are just doing it in a more &#39;logical&#39; manner...here is what I mean. Young people for the most part don&#39;t have money. So AutoX is the best form of racing available to them. I was part of a group that saw the need and conceptualized the Street
AB

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Hi Andy,

I think you are right with your thoughts and ideas and definitely agree you&#39;d be a perfect poster child for getting in and staying in. I&#39;m getting ready to go to a car show/swap meet here shortly and I know what I&#39;ll find there, a lot of the crowd that George mentions. Hate to use it, but in the south they are called ricers by the hotrod and muscle car crowd. They have money, no doubt, but they don&#39;t want to wad a car.

But, among them will be a few who would like to road race. The conversations generally go like this:

Them: "Can I race my "Insert Jap Import Car of Choice" with you?"

Me: "I dunno, where is it?"

Them: "Right here. I got the Greddy turbo kit, the Godzilla brake kit, the Zex nitrous kit, and the Mongo wing"

Me: "Well, you could race the car but you couldn&#39;t use all those modifications. The class allows a lot of suspension mods but the engine mods, well, no they&#39;d have to go. However, you could race it in ITE and then you could keep some of the stuff."

Them: "Cool, ITE. How many people would I be racing against?"

Me: "Well, you&#39;d be on track with probably 40. But, here in the Southeast, hmmm...well, you&#39;d be racing, uh, well, you&#39;d be racing by yourself."

Them: "That&#39;s not cool. How about something else?"

And so on. Yep, they can race ITE but they&#39;ll be by themselves. And of course the other classes, with the limitations and so forth, don&#39;t fit their idea of racing. Not saying their idea is right, just saying what we have to offer doesn&#39;t fit with a lot of these folks&#39; ideas.

I can see how the SCCA has expanded to try and net some of the younger crowd at the AutoX level. That is a good thing and will get members involved and might lead to them road racing.

Seems the DE programs from BMW, Porsche, and others would be the perfect place to draw from since I&#39;ve had SCCA racers, naturally, instruct me at these things. But, with Porsche and BMW they have their own closed racing programs that pull racers from the SCCA. And it pulls some young and old alike from the SCCA.

I don&#39;t know. I still feel that despite what we&#39;re doing and trying to do with new people coming in we&#39;re still ripping around track in some very old cars that young people can&#39;t identify. Probably about the best IT cars out there as far as they are concerned will be Integras, BMWs, and the occasional late model Camaro or Mustang although AS doesn&#39;t have the huge numbers like I thought it might.

Hate to say it, but the best car I&#39;ve been able to introduce or bring up to get a fellow interested in racing is a Miata. And, that isn&#39;t such a bad thing of course. I&#39;ve got one too and like driving it but there is something "tame" about it. Good racing though but man, if it keeps growing SM will take over!

R

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Originally posted by rlearp@Nov 11 2005, 12:08 PM
But, among them will be a few who would like to road race. The conversations generally go like this:

Them: "Can I race my "Insert Jap Import Car of Choice" with you?"

Me: "I dunno, where is it?"

Them: "Right here. I got the Greddy turbo kit, the Godzilla brake kit, the Zex nitrous kit, and the Mongo wing"

Me: "Well, you could race the car but you couldn&#39;t use all those modifications. The class allows a lot of suspension mods but the engine mods, well, no they&#39;d have to go. However, you could race it in ITE and then you could keep some of the stuff."

Them: "Cool, ITE. How many people would I be racing against?"

Me: "Well, you&#39;d be on track with probably 40. But, here in the Southeast, hmmm...well, you&#39;d be racing, uh, well, you&#39;d be racing by yourself."

Them: "That&#39;s not cool. How about something else?"

And so on. Yep, they can race ITE but they&#39;ll be by themselves. And of course the other classes, with the limitations and so forth, don&#39;t fit their idea of racing. Not saying their idea is right, just saying what we have to offer doesn&#39;t fit with a lot of these folks&#39; ideas.

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I appreciate your concerns Ron. Relative to the discussion about NASA, they do not have a place for these people either other than perhaps catch-alls like ITE. As you have stated, they are the folks I refer to as the "pretend" racers. That&#39;s not to diss them, but they don&#39;t want to deal with rules and by its very nature, racing requires rules or else the biggest check wins ultimately. Sadly, there is little we or NASA can do to get these people actually racing (not DE). They have to want to race more than they want a racey street car or DE car.

The closest thing for them is WC, but then the price tag is way too high for them and of course the car will come back dented more often than not.

Ron, we all have the same wish. But just as Geo says, the simple fact is that this large demographic that all the sanctioning bodies would love to attract simply does not like the rule set. It&#39;s the whole "lifestyle" thing associated with sport-compacts. Drag racing is so attractive to this group because of the much smaller chance of damaging their "pimpin, yo bling bling" show/street car. Plus they have the bikini contests and blow-your-ear-drum stereo crap. I&#39;m a lot like you and Andy. I&#39;m 37 and just completed my rookie season. I did 8 years of Solo and a couple years of track days before moving up to club racing. It was a combination of financial and family restrictions that had to be met before I could finally convert the car to a race car.
Here in Indy we constantly get suggestions that we need to bring more of the sport-compact crowd in the the club. We have our fair-share of first-timers that show up at a Solo events. Of course they don&#39;t like the fact they have to work the course and then when they get slaughtered by the local hot-shoes in their H-Stock Civics, they usually don&#39;t come back. If we gain a handful of new autocrossers from this group every year, that is a success. Now try and get them to take that next step up to racing. The percentage that can and are willing to do that is tiny. I hate to admit to being "old", but it is a generational gap that has already occured and we are lucky to pluck those few that are not more interested in drag racing of video games.