BMW 325 SIR with Less Weight???

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06-07-2006, 11:33 AM
RSTPerformance

Nobody has really posted results so we could compair, and I admit I have not got the time to go searching through and reading al the SIR/BMW discussions, however while not a contender now in ITS I am interested in the overall IT community. Thus my thoughts/idea...

The facts that I seem to have taken away from what little I have read, please feel free to correct me if I am wrong:

1) The BMW "lovers" and SIR "haters" seem IMO to think that the BMW should have had extra weight rather than an SIR.

2) The SIR seems to have slowed cars anywhere from 1 second to 3 seconds a lap? (Is that a good range?)

3) Unlike in cars I am familiar with weight makes a huge impact on a BMW and in many peoples view could have compensated for the "performance advantage" if done correctly.

4) The ITAC has a process of reviewing a cars performance each year for the first few years and will make adjustments accordingly.

My idea: After reviewing results why not have the BMW still run a SIR but possibly reduce its weight to compensate for the "lack of performance" it now has with an SIR??? If that is a possibility what would be a good weight with an SIR?

The rules for replies!!!

1) Don't fill up the topic with arguments about how the car can't run with an SIR (you are doing something wrong if it isn't running, I have seen one run with decent power) or how the 325 is dead and we shouldn't bother trying to "help" it. The ITAC/CRB etc. reads this forum, and insulting them doesn't help anything but fustrate them and thier hard work.

2) If this has been discussed someplace else let me know and I will go check it out!!!

Raymond "The car is a great car for ITS and if I can't afford a 944 then I would like to see it still as a feasable option for myself and others in the future (however far away that is ;)" Blethen
06-07-2006, 12:50 PM
Ron Earp

Quote:

My idea: After reviewing results why not have the BMW still run a SIR but possibly reduce its weight to compensate for the "lack of performance" it now has with an SIR??? If that is a possibility what would be a good weight with an SIR?

[/b]

I am not sure, but wasn't slowing it down 1-3 seconds per lap the goal? If so, then your suggestion to remove weight would put the car right back where it started - at the top of ITS.

Hopefully it'll be a mote point and the car can run unrestricted at a lower weight in ITR for 2007.

Ron
06-07-2006, 01:32 PM
RSTPerformance

Ron-

My thought is that if 3 seconds a lap is to much of a restriction (I think the car really only needed a 1 second - 1.5 second restriction), then how I understand "the process" it should be reviewed and a change in weight that might give it back some performance to make it competitive again without backing out of the whole SIR thing.

IMO honestly I am not sure how much weight makes a difference, however most people arguing against the SIR feel that it does, so I was interestaed in what they thought might be a corect weight WITH a SIR.

Basically instead of fighting the SIR, lets get the right weight!!!

Obviosly I support ITR and sent in my letter a long time ago, but I still think that the 325 could be a good car for ITS, I do feel that it was an overdog in ITS, but i think it wasn't enough to completely outlaw its possibility within ITS. If the process does work (the reviewing of cars/classifications) then I think adjustments should be able to be made (If needed - we still havn't seen a ton of results) to make it competitive without being an overdog.

Raymond
06-07-2006, 02:59 PM
Bill Miller

Raymond,

It's my understaning that the SIR was sized based on the current spec. weight. As Ron pointed out, if you decrease the weight, it negates some (all?) of the desired effect of the SIR.
06-07-2006, 03:09 PM
RSTPerformance

After the year is over and the cars performance with an SIR is reviewed maybe "negating some" (not all) of the effect would be a good thing if ITR does not go through, and/or if ITR is not the right place for the BMW 325.

Raymond
06-07-2006, 08:06 PM
Eagle7

If you don't have enough BMWers making a good-faith effort to prep their cars to the max with the SIR, you won't have any info at the end of the year. As others have mentioned, some prophesies are self-fulfilling. This may be one of them. It won't be the SIR that kills the BMW, but the SIR fallout might.
06-13-2006, 04:02 PM
Andy Bettencourt

Ray,

This is not about 1 second or 3 seconds. It's about fitting the process. The 325 was misclassed at 2850 - by a long shot. There is no record of why it was specified at 2850, no backup, nobody can seem to figure it out. In the current IT-classing structure, a car must go through the 'process'.

Stock HP * % increase in IT trim * target power to weight of the class + 'adders'.

Now all this has been explained to death. If you want to run unrestricted (as we all do), then we all have weights that we must adhear to. The CRB decided that the horse was out of the barn on the 2850 and adding 300+ pounds to make it fit was unreasonable. You can then only work the process backwards and limit HP given the weight. Simple.

It's not about slowing anyone down. It's about equitable specs accross the category. And there is NO way there is enough data to change anything yet. Heck, we have guys still winning with the SIR and guys telling us there are DOA. It all comes down to prep level. You can't hide an underprepped BMW on grid anymore with this restriction. It is one of issues at the heart of the debate - some love it and some hate it.
06-13-2006, 04:16 PM
RSTPerformance

Quote:

Ray,

This is not about 1 second or 3 seconds. It's about fitting the process. The 325 was misclassed at 2850 - by a long shot. There is no record of why it was specified at 2850, no backup, nobody can seem to figure it out. In the current IT-classing structure, a car must go through the 'process'.

Stock HP * % increase in IT trim * target power to weight of the class + 'adders'.

Now all this has been explained to death. [/b]

My understanding is that "original" classification is done with:

"stock HP * % increase in IT trim * target power to weight of the class + 'adders'."

Then the cars performance is reviewed and adjustments in the classification are made for 5(?) years? I would guess that these adjustments would be to correct an error in the estimated % increase in IT trim and 'adders'. If I have been mislead could you correct me? (I could be wrong as some days I do not read every post you all make even though I would love to!!! :wacko: )

Now as for the BMW it has been in the class for 5 years now (at least I think) and thus maybe the deffinition of the adjustment period is to late, however with such a drastic or new/creative solution/change was made I would think that a review and change could still be made? If a change was made it could be done with weight rather than a different size SIR to save some of these guys some $$$.

Raymond
06-13-2006, 04:55 PM
Banzai240

Quote:

My understanding is that "original" classification is done with:

"stock HP * % increase in IT trim * target power to weight of the class + 'adders'."

Then the cars performance is reviewed and adjustments in the classification are made for 5(?) years? I would guess that these adjustments would be to correct an error in the estimated % increase in IT trim and 'adders'. If I have been mislead could you correct me? [/b]

OK Ray... I'll correct you....

The "process" you describe was put in place by the CURRENT ITAC over the past two seasons... The BMW was classified "originally" over 7 years ago. Only just this past season did the ITAC have enough information, process, and CRB support to propose a realignment of the whole of IT to fit all of the reviewed IT cars to the newly instituted "process"... (we tried to get them all, but admittedly missed a few along the way, which is why you'll see more adjustments show up in Fastrack from time to time as we get try to get them all...)

So, the correction to the E36 this season, aka: SIR, was done to fit the car into the process which that will from this day forward be used to classify/adjust cars in IT.

The truely original classification was done via the previous method, which was not a documented, consistent, or otherwise "fair" method.

The bottom line of the current process is that we are working with a basic wt/pwr ratio for each IT class, and the restrictor was put on the BMW to reduce it's power to a more appropriate level in relation to it's current weight. The other option would have been to increase it's weight.