2015 NERRC schedule

[team-gpracing]

The 2015 Club Racing schedule has been posted. This upcoming year’s schedule will feature seven race weekends at four different tracks.

While the schedule is only tentative at this time, we should have all of the details sewn up shortly and a final version will be posted if there are any changes.

http://www.ner.org/clubracing-schedule/

[Abhi]

The 2015 Club Racing schedule has been posted. This upcoming year’s schedule will feature seven race weekends at four different tracks.

While the schedule is only tentative at this time, we should have all of the details sewn up shortly and a final version will be posted if there are any changes.

http://www.ner.org/clubracing-schedule/


That looks like a fun and varied schedule. Any idea what the NE Divisional schedule is?

Abhi

[team-gpracing]

Sure do. It's still tentative as well.

http://www.nediv.com/nediv-info/tentative-2014-nediv-schedule

[mossaidis]

Page 5

http://www.mohud-scca.org/ko/2014DecKO.pdf

​"The 2015 NeDiv Divisional ChampionshipThe 2015 Race Schedule is set:

April 11,12 Summit Point
April 23,24 New Hampshire Motor Speedway (might be April 25, 26...)
June 6,7 New Jersey Motorsports Park
June 20,21 Nelson Ledges
July 18,19 Watkins Glen International
August 8,9 Pocono International Speedway
September 19, 20 Pittsburgh International Raceway
October 9,10 Thompson Speedway Motorsports Park

Eight Weekends listed, you must participate in four weekends to be eligible for the championship."

I have my eye on this series as well... forewarned. :)

July 18,19 Watkins Glen International is out for me since T and I are participating in the NYC Tri that weekend. I hope Bruce in his 1.6 Miata runs that weekend and kicks all your ITA a$$es :_) as he does mine at WGI. Championship and friendly banter/"fighting words" aside, this schedule includes 4 new tracks for me and that in itself is a win.

[gran racing]

Oh, we're so scared Mickey! :p

[mossaidis]

Bring a few extra fenders and rims to the track. ;)

So, are we doing this or what?

[gran racing]

You certainly won't have to worry about me. I've never been into following a championship schedule. Palmer, the Glen, LRP, one or two Thompson, Summit Labor Day. That's my hopes for next year. Hopefully some of those will also align with your schedule.

[mossaidis]

I want to worry about you and Ahbi. Winning championships on attendance and top 5 finishes is not exactly fun or exciting, yet still a challenge.

[Abhi]

Bring a few extra fenders and rims to the track. ;)

So, are we doing this or what?

I am in !!

See you at Summit. Bring your A game.

Abhi

[MMiskoe]

No more Cheap Date weekend. I'm sure I am not alone when I say I can remember when the entry was $100 for that weekend. I remember that price because I got to the front of registration line w/o my checkbook (no credit cards or online registration then), but had enough cash to pay the fee.

Pig Roast has been gone for a few years now. All good things do come to an end eventually.

Here's to new traditional weekends at the new tracks.

[lateapex911]

April 11,12 Summit Point
April 23,24 New Hampshire Motor Speedway (might be April 25, 26...)
June 6,7 New Jersey Motorsports Park
June 20,21 Nelson Ledges
July 18,19 Watkins Glen International
August 8,9 Pocono International Speedway
September 19, 20 Pittsburgh International Raceway
October 9,10 Thompson Speedway Motorsports Park

Kind of sad that Lime Rock isn't on the list of a Championship Trail....

[gran racing]

Yes, but there's Nelson!! :) Interesting to see that and Pittsburgh on the schedule. Palmer would have been nice too.

[Terry Hanushek]

Kind of sad that Lime Rock isn't on the list of a Championship Trail....


Palmer would have been nice too.

At the recent MiniCon, the NEDiv Divisional Racing Committee voted to have the Divisional Championship Series series consist of a maximum of eight races at different tracks each year. Since there are currently more than eight active tracks in the division, some track(s) will get bypassed in any given year. A rotation will be set up so that tracks get an equal opportunity over time. Palmer will definitely be in the mix when it comes on line.

Terry

[gran racing]

Terry, I'm obviously out of the loop when it comes to this series but it seems like the focus is on North East based tracks mostly. What is the reasoning for Nelson and Pittsburgh? Just trying to get some other tracks in the mix?

Mickey - this is how a look at the series goes for me, and it's not a knock on it, just my viewpoint. I look at which events are the most fun, which tracks I enjoy, and have good competition. I then base my racing on that. Summit? Fun track, but if I'm going there it'll be for Labor Day weekend which IMO is one of the premier events on the East Coast for IT. April? Eh. Weather there is often not so appealing; even less than 100 degree heat during the summer. lol

Maybe we need to come up with our own gentleman's championship. Both LRP events (the NARRC runoffs should be a part of this), both Palmer events, one Glen (maybe two), one Thompson, Summit Labor Day, hell at that point I'd throw in one of my least favorite tracks, NHMS.

Again, I realize the chase for a points championship is appealing to many and respect that.

[Greg Amy]

What is the reasoning for Nelson and Pittsburgh?
They're Northeast Division tracks.

[Aanselm]

The event at pittsburgh international will be on the new 2.9 mile course. So all of the regional class records will be up for grabs.

[Raceman77]

the NHMS date is actually May 23-24. for the NeDiv race.

[Dano77]

Mickey - this is how a look at the series goes for me, and it's not a knock on it, just my viewpoint. I look at which events are the most fun, which tracks I enjoy, and have good competition. I then base my racing on that. Summit? Fun track, but if I'm going there it'll be for Labor Day weekend which IMO is one of the premier events on the East Coast for IT. April? Eh. Weather there is often not so appealing; even less than 100 degree heat during the summer. lol

Maybe we need to come up with our own gentleman's championship. Both LRP events (the NARRC runoffs should be a part of this), both Palmer events, one Glen (maybe two), one Thompson, Summit Labor Day, hell at that point I'd throw in one of my least favorite tracks, NHMS.

Again, I realize the chase for a points championship is appealing to many and respect that.


So let me see if I understand this Dave. You want to start a Championship with your buddies, raceing at select tracks of your choices, for a points structure that you guys come up with.

Next you will say you want a Spec tire, and your own rookie hazing, and your own seperate banquet and year end trophies. What an awesome idea. (NOT SARCASTIC) It does in fact really work and bolster entries. And its a hoot raceing with the same group of Cheatin Bastards every week. Go Ahead....

[Greg Amy]

Ok, I got an LOL out of that...

But Dan, you missed a key part: create extra-regulatory requirements to restrict preparation and choose not to publish them, keeping them only as word-of-mouth so that if anyone else chooses to enter you can SHUN them into retreat...

;)

[Dano77]

Ok, I got an LOL out of that...

But Dan, you missed a key part: create extra-regulatory requirements to restrict preparation and choose not to publish them, keeping them only as word-of-mouth so that if anyone else chooses to enter you can SHUN them into retreat...

;)


It is assimilation, not retreat.

[mossaidis]

updated based on JB



April 11,12 Summit Point
May 23,24 New Hampshire Motor Speedway
June 6,7 New Jersey Motorsports Park
June 20,21 Nelson Ledges
July 18,19 Watkins Glen International
August 8,9 Pocono International Speedway
September 19, 20 Pittsburgh International Raceway
October 9,10 Thompson Speedway Motorsports Park

[ner88]

NERRC series could be great one. 4 tracks/7events
let's get it structured so folks will participate, please!

[Dano77]

NERRC series could be great one. 4 tracks/7events
let's get it structured so folks will participate, please!

How about this, Lower Entry Fees and make it affordable to run more than one event in peoples minds. When its 500.00 before I load a trailer, there is an issue. Lower cost= higher volume. Buisness 101

And yes I have been at this for years. Why do cars that cant/wont double dip need to subsidize cars that can and will double dip. (Miata)

Rant over now.....

[ner88]

Come on Dan, you know the answer!
Expenses are fixed, so the only way to lower entry fees is with more entries.

[gran racing]

You do have a good thing going on there Dan, I won't deny that.

[Dano77]

Come on Dan, you know the answer!
Expenses are fixed, so the only way to lower entry fees is with more entries.

Yes I know the answer.

Lower cost= higher volume. Higher volume = higher income.

If you get 30 cars at 200.00 = 6000

At 150.00 you would need 40 to make the same money, BUT if the 200 is the break point and 150 is reasonable to say another 20 plus the original 30. Thats 50 at 150=7500.00 so 1500 more.

Its simple math, the issue is haveing the balls to try. Cause its a huge gamble. Raising entrys however is a sure bet to lose customers due to cost break point.

Just sayin....

[Greg Amy]

Its simple math, the issue is haveing the balls to try. Cause its a huge gamble.
Dan, can you send NER a list of names that you've talked to who said, directly, they have chosen to not enter an event because of the price? And of those numbers, did you ask them what price they would be willing to pay? I'm quite certain your marketing studies - as well as your experience in microeconomics - would be sincerely appreciated.

Alternatively, how about you cut a deal with the region where they agree to reduce the entries $xxx if you cover the revenue shortfalls (assuming there are any, which you seem to think there will not be)? But there's the kicker: they could agree to give you the increased revenues in return for your risks. That way you're risking your money instead of someone else's, and you could publicly prove yourself correct!

Assuming you have the balls to try... ;)

Greg

[Dano77]

Only 3 posts to incur the wrath of tGA


I love silly season

[Greg Amy]

"Wrath"?!? I was agreeing with you! You said you had the answers!

Sheesh, so sensitive...

[Dano77]

I didnt actually read your post. Just saw your name and decided it didnt have pictures or charts to look at and was to long for my redneck micro econimical rotard brain to comprehend

[Greg Amy]

I didnt actually read your post. Just saw your name and decided it didnt have pictures or charts to look at and was to long for my redneck micro econimical rotard brain to comprehend
Ah, gotcha.

[Dano77]

BUT since we are on the subject.

This is a good discussion that shouldn't get brushed under the rug. What is the actual price point that creates a barrier to entry. If the general consensus is that most racers only do 2 weekends a year due to cost, what would make them do 3 or 4 in terms of cost.

And yes, I know the costs are fixed. This is a perfect world discussion in regards to the question at hand. We are wondering why the club is graying, is the cost a reason or are we all just rich old guys and the club will disappear when we die.

[Greg Amy]

As you know, that requires marketing studies, ones that the club/region is not prepared to make. Hell, instead of "30 cars at 200.00 = 6000", how do we know it might not be better to raise the entry fee to $1000 and we'll get eight entrants? More revenue, fewer workers needed, less collateral (food, beer, etc) expense?

Answer is, we don't know, and we don't possess the tools and knowledge to figure it out. So we rely on the leadership to WAG/POOMA what they think the market will bear, given known costs thus necessary revenue to break even. If someone does have that expertise and could bring it to bear, I think we'd find very little resistance toward adjusting the price to either maximize the revenue or maximize entries (which aren't the same).

Casually speaking, if we sense there is a large latent number of people out there waiting for a $50 (or whatever) decrease in entry fees, then we should answer to that. But I'd be kinda surprised if that was the case. - GA

[StephenB]

I do think we should make every effort to try some NEW ideas. For example last year we had some big money maker weekends and a weekend that we lost a bunch of money on. Historically we have the data so with little effort we can tell the trends on where we lose money. (Autocross... Haha jk) anyway here is an idea...

Let's say entries are fixed at $375 (terrible new trend we have the last few years) then the double dippers save about 1/2 of that at $200 I think. Why don't we open up the double dip to another NER weekend that had low attendance so everyone can take advantage of it? The double dippers may still double dip and the other drivers that only come to one or two weekends may double dip on another weekend. Kinda like how cranmore mt sells ski tickets... get your lift ticket 1/2 price for the second day every day but Saturday. Maybe we open this up to participants at a highly attended event?

How about if we rent our cars to people from other sanctioning bodies for the CRE we provide a discount?

Our how about like the pro guys do with a "season" pass?

Stephen

I assume we all race for free at Palmer anyway this year :-)

[StephenB]

I also think we need to focus on more entries not more money because bigger entries breed more entries... for example see Dave grand post...

Long term we will continue to shrink if we don't have more "racing" and more competition.

Stephen

[ner88]

ITEZ, barriers to entry (what ever it was called??) , Chump cars or Lemonds are not the answer.
Because the costs to continue are too high!
As Stephen said, lower entry fees will bring cars.
We need to make a bigger deal of our events.
Promote our, one of a kind, series NERRC.
make racers want to attend!

Sebring's Turkey Trot (regional) had 340+ entries @ $230.

[StephenB]

I think lower entries that encourage participation are key to drawing more cars, that's why I like the multi race discount approach. I also still think that anyone that travels more than 500 miles to race in our region should get to race for free. And before we think that is all complicated I think it's easy. Whatever your home address is that you used to register with SCCA is what we use for our Google maps start and the track we are racing at is our destination. I don't think we will lose money on this at all... all we are doing is inviting people from far away to see how fun it is to race with us. And that increases our participation which increases the want to attend for the locals when we have bigger fields...

Stephen

[Dano77]

Because the costs to continue are too high!
As Stephen said, lower entry fees will bring cars.
We need to make a bigger deal of our events.
Promote our, one of a kind, series NERRC.
make racers want to attend!

Sebring's Turkey Trot (regional) had 340+ entries @ $230.

What a great idea!!!!! Lower entry fees will bring more cars. Glad someone smarter than me was thinking about it.

[team-gpracing]

We are wondering why the club is graying, is the cost a reason or are we all just rich old guys and the club will disappear when we die.

I haven't been at this as long as some of you, and I'm sure there are stats to determine the truth of this statement, but if you ask me, the club has always been gray. Is it really getting grayer? I know this seems to be the case with workers. But drivers? I don't know.

As far as decreasing entry fees goes, the only realistic way to do so is to find more entries. I agree with Stephen that we need publicity in order to do so. (IMO) The only people that know about the SCCA are already racers and family/friends of those racers. Those people already know what we're about and either race with us, or don't (whether that's because they can't afford it or don't like us). If we get more people to the track, we get more exposure. With more exposure, we get more interest. With more interest, we get more participants.

Now who wants to make some flyers and put them up at Autozone? :114:

[gran racing]

they have chosen to not enter an event because of the price?

For me, anything over $300 makes me take a much closer look at what product I'll be getting. The near $400 LRP entry fees (and I'm a "LRP fanboy") makes me gasp, think how my wife is going to kick my butt for that stupid expenditure, and I question it too. If there were more than two events there, no way I'd be going there for more.


Now who wants to make some flyers and put them up at Autozone?

That's actually a great idea! But instead of wondering who else will do it, time to step up to the plate. ;) Hell, I've put my money where my mouth was time for more people to do it and be a bigger part of the solution.

[StephenB]

I think we need to continue to make efforts to be inclusive of cars built to other sanctioning bodies. Those cars and people exist. Chump, lemons, nasa, bmw club, Porsche club. Heck Will Turner who has a huge customer base races in BMW club, grand am, now WC, and even the lemons race all at our tracks, but has he ever raced with us? How can we get companies like his involved with us? Why doesn't he race with us! We need to partner with people like him. Heck I would be 100% supportive of letting him race with us for free if he advertised our organization... but I bet others here and in our region wouldn't support that free advertising...

Stephen

[Greg Amy]

I think we need to continue to make efforts to be inclusive of cars built to other sanctioning bodies. Those cars and people exist. Chump, lemons...
ITEZ


...nasa, bmw club, Porsche club.
ITE.


Heck Will Turner who has a huge customer base...
STU has invited his recently-created Spec E46 to race in STU.

Any others?

[StephenB]

We invited him? Or we have a ruleset that allows him to race? BIG difference...

[Greg Amy]

We invited him? Or we have a ruleset that allows him to race? BIG difference...

We specifically list the Spec E46 cars as eligible for STU, because the class has deviations that make them ineligible to the basic STU ruleset (weight, I think?). We added the class a couple of months ago on his request (and Eric Heinrich's lobbying).

You can do this, too, but "it's never been done" in IT. In fact, the idea has been explicitly rejected (see: Spec Miatas in ITA).

GA

[craigs]

Will has been to the runoffs at least once and as I recall made a great showing on RA-1s that he was "contracted" to run at the time.

1. We have too many events competing for a limited number of drivers. Northeast Division July 10 - August 23 has at least one race EVERY weekend and sometimes three!
2. Allow people to pay up from for a discount. Buy 5 nonrefundable race weekends and get a 6th free if you pay before March 1st.
3. Cut the number of classes.
4. Remove the Major and Regional distinction.
5. One series at the divisional level.

Dave - you talk about LRPs high cost making you pause. No calling you out specifically because I hear it all the time, but I think LRP gets a bad rap for the entry fee which is only about $20 higher than NHMS. LRP is no longer way over priced in comparison.

[gran racing]

Do you see me at NHMS? :) It's not just about cost, it's about perceived value.

For example, I'd MUCH prefer to attend Summit Point's Labor Day Friday - Monday events even though it'll cost me more a fair amount more due to travel. Yet I totally feel my family and I get an awesome product. Maybe not a great example... From what I've seen of Palmer, I'd rather head there for a Friday - Sunday race weekend for more money and a lot more racing. LRP often has a waste of a vacation day Friday qualifying, some wonky qualifying sprint which isn't a race cause that noise would be louder or something like that, and so forth.

Ask tGA if I'm a guy who typically defends LRP, has emotional ties to it since I grew up going there with my father watching races, and so on. Gesh Greg, you proud of me? lol

[Greg Amy]

;) I do find it ironic that you're complaining about entry fee cost, yet you prefer to tow 7 hours (versus 5)..the difference just in fuel cost is more (ignoring the relative value of the tracks...I know you're not a fan of NHMS).

But I think that illustrates a bigger picture than just entry fees. I think entry fees certainly give us pause, but they don't guide our behavior as much as we think they do. I bitched about the entry fees for the Majors last year ($650, was it?) and for the Runoffs ($950?) but I still did the events because they were races I wanted to run, at venues I wanted to race, and competition I wanted to race against. Provide events at attractive venues with full fields and the rest follows.

Hell, I bet you could probably charge $750 for the first 2015 Palmer Regional and I bet the place still fills up. Yes, people will bitch, but if this were a purely economic discussion, that's what we'd do... - GA

[craigs]

When you mentioned dollar amounts I mistakenly interpreted that as cost and not value. My bad.

[georgethefierce]

;) I do find it ironic that you're complaining about entry fee cost, yet you prefer to tow 7 hours (versus 5)..the difference just in fuel cost is more (ignoring the relative value of the tracks...I know you're not a fan of NHMS).

But I think that illustrates a bigger picture than just entry fees. I think entry fees certainly give us pause, but they don't guide our behavior as much as we think they do. I bitched about the entry fees for the Majors last year ($650, was it?) and for the Runoffs ($950?) but I still did the events because they were races I wanted to run, at venues I wanted to race, and competition I wanted to race against. Provide events at attractive venues with full fields and the rest follows.

Hell, I bet you could probably charge $750 for the first 2015 Palmer Regional and I bet the place still fills up. Yes, people will bitch, but if this were a purely economic discussion, that's what we'd do... - GA


I agree, and as a super low budget racer I wish I didn't...I WISH $300 entry fees would make a real difference, I just don't see it being the reason people only run a couple events a year. Now $750 for Palmer...that's a different story.

[gran racing]

Jake G. has often mentioned one of the reasons why Club Racing has declined is due to how the family structure has changed over the years. A while back, in more families the father would simply state he's going racing, had more control of the financial state of the family, and that would be that. His role was more of a provider in the family. There were less expectations for dad to be as involved in the kids extra curricular activities. Times have changes and I don't disagree with his theory.


I do find it ironic that you're complaining about entry fee cost, yet you prefer to tow 7 hours (versus 5)..the difference just in fuel cost is more

There are multiple factors in that decision. My perceived value being one and overall experience the family has. It's easier for me to sell an event where my wife recognizes the "value".

Greg, you're looking it at a different way than many of us who have kids do. To be honest, your calculation is the accurate way. I won't disagree with that. Mine and many other people especially who have kids need to market it / sell it differently. This is no different than 95% of products sold to consumers. The entry fee is highly visible and right there in our face.

Pay to the Order of: Lime Rock Park
Amount: Three hundred eighty five dollars and 00/100.

Ut oh! Many of our wives are NOT going to like seeing that. And by all means, I'm not saying our wives are dumb and don't recognize other costs involved. Yet at more incremental and spread out spending, we find a way to rationalize or ignore it. This plays on most peoples' human nature. Just like building a racecar where we make several trips to Home Depot and ignore those costs the best we can.

This happens on a sliding scale of sorts where fuel costs begin to factor in the further away. The Glen 5 hour tow? Yes, but not a huge factor. Summit - 7 hours? Yeah, but hey, it's an amazing event. Road Atlanta where it's a $1,000 fuel bill; that scale tipped too much.

I am not expecting this to make sense to people who are rational and/or don't need to sell our Club Racing habbit this way. Yet I know it's a reality for many.

[ner88]

First off, the number of classes have nothing to do with car counts.
We are and will be forever the greying car club ("m not going into my reasoning)
The future of SCCA is not the 15 year old up and coming star, Once daddy stops paying its over!
All of our attention should be on who we are.

Call it regional or local racing that's what makes us successful.
There are plenty of us out there, we are just spread out to thin with so many different opportunities.
Go to any of these tracks on a weekday and there is some club with cars on track.

[Dave Patten]

IMO the number of classes does have an effect on entries. The more classes that get forced into club racing from top down, the more it decreases in-class completion by separating the current driver supply into smaller groups.

I have a GTL car. I am not interested in Majors/Runoffs participation, so I raced by myself at Regionals. Not much fun, so in the middle of the 2014 season I bought an IT7 car after a couple guest drives in 2013.

Why did I leave GT for IT, simple, competition. And that competition brought me out to the track more in 2014 than 2012 & 2013 combined.

If you do add classes (IT7 is a great example) let it come from the bottom up. If it grows great, if not kick it to the side (ie the now defunct, Classic GT).

Solid competition increases entries, participation trophies don't.

[ner88]

Dave, You're one of the few willing to change.
I would bet the majority would just quit if their class went away.
SCCA, As a club, should have a place for everyone to play.
If not we become NASA :-)

[lateapex911]

First off, the number of classes have nothing to do with car counts.
We are and will be forever the greying car club ("m not going into my reasoning)
The future of SCCA is not the 15 year old up and coming star, Once daddy stops paying its over!
All of our attention should be on who we are.

Call it regional or local racing that's what makes us successful.
There are plenty of us out there, we are just spread out to thin with so many different opportunities.
Go to any of these tracks on a weekday and there is some club with cars on track.

It's certainly interesting to look at the car counts that HPDEs like Ian Prouts bring to places like Watkins Glen on a Monday! Dudes in Porsche 911s, Lotuses, Caddy V cars, Honda S2000s, and so on. They gather at the Subway for lunch...wearing $1000 Sparco driving suits.
I instructed with Ian for a few years, and got to know the crowd. I asked a bunch if club racing held any attraction. Most had the money, if their $60000 street /track cars and $1000 driver suits (for a HPDE!) were an indication. And they had an interest for driving around tracks fast. And they were willing to take weekdays off from work.

But, most said no. Why? Reasons like: Kills the weekends with the kids, wife won't stand for that. - Too dangerous. - Gotta get a truck and trailer AND race car & this track toy goes to work too. - Not enough room for all the stuff. Then there were reasons that were being cloaked, I suspect, such as while it looks cool to be parading around Watkins Gleen with a fancy racing suit on, the cold reality of competing ...and getting your ass handed to you....is enough to cause pause: fighting and working up the ladder to a win is not worth the embarrassment to get there.

Of course, tht's not all of them, but I do think that all the new on track choices for motorsports entusiasts have resulted in more people getting on the track, yet less racing with the SCCA. I think thats because before the other options existed, people ran with the Club because it was the best- errrrr, the ONLY option.

[StephenB]

And far as the NERRC CHAMPIONSHIP is concerned....


Any feedback to drive participation?
I am looking into a few sponsors for the series to disperse to those that win year end trophies. Any ideas, or takers?
Any feedback on the points system?
Anything at all?

Stephen

[team-gpracing]

What were you thinking?

Looks like we'll have at least 16 races, depending on how the double/triple weekends shake out. Minimum 8 races to be crowned?

I always thought that point systems were backwards. I know we as humans think that bigger is better, but it's so much easier to do things backwards...and with less digits.

How about this: One point for each position. Points are bad. Lowest at the end of the season wins. Example - First place gets one point, 12th place gets 12. A theoretic perfect season would be 16 points.

Using the above points system, maybe you get a point or two added for each race that you don't start. So if you attend 12 of 16 races, you get 4 points added to your score. This system could work even with the existing points system.

[lawtonglenn]

...So if you attend 12 of 16 races, you get 4 points added to your score...

actually you'd have to add alot of points for a DNS ... one idea would be the number of finishers in the race
you missed plus 1, making it equivalent to you finishing DFL in each missed race ... and... I'd give the winner
a bonus for winning... or maybe how about this:

pos 1 points 0
pos 2 points 2
pos 3 points 3
pos 4 points 4
pos 5 points 5
:
pos 12 points 12
pos 13 points 13
:
DNF points (finishers + 1)
DNS points (finishers + 2)
DSU* points (finishers + 3)

* DSU = Didn't Show Up




.

[gran racing]

So you could have a really weak but large field made up of cars not even built for the class, and it could kill your chances by DSU (not showing up). Ugh.

[Dano77]

IT and SM/STL crossovers is gonna bring havoc to this system. Depending on the weekend there would be 2 ITA cars and 17 SM running ITA and Kill the guy that didnt show cause his kid has a ballet/horse/birthday thing going on.

Whats actually wrong with the system we have?

As far as publicity for the series, Come up with a name, and do the gorilla marketing for your team/series/class. Any skiers in the northeast should be looking at chairlift poles this year for something.. Muhahahahahaha

[Serge]

It's certainly interesting to look at the car counts that HPDEs like Ian Prouts bring to places like Watkins Glen on a Monday! Dudes in Porsche 911s, Lotuses, Caddy V cars, Honda S2000s, and so on. They gather at the Subway for lunch...wearing $1000 Sparco driving suits.
I instructed with Ian for a few years, and got to know the crowd. I asked a bunch if club racing held any attraction. Most had the money, if their $60000 street /track cars and $1000 driver suits (for a HPDE!) were an indication. And they had an interest for driving around tracks fast. And they were willing to take weekdays off from work.

But, most said no. Why? Reasons like: Kills the weekends with the kids, wife won't stand for that. - Too dangerous. - Gotta get a truck and trailer AND race car & this track toy goes to work too. - Not enough room for all the stuff. Then there were reasons that were being cloaked, I suspect, such as while it looks cool to be parading around Watkins Gleen with a fancy racing suit on, the cold reality of competing ...and getting your ass handed to you....is enough to cause pause: fighting and working up the ladder to a win is not worth the embarrassment to get there.

Of course, tht's not all of them, but I do think that all the new on track choices for motorsports entusiasts have resulted in more people getting on the track, yet less racing with the SCCA. I think thats because before the other options existed, people ran with the Club because it was the best- errrrr, the ONLY option.

Jake, you hit the nail on the head. I agree 100%

[ner88]

Jake I can agree but not all fit your description and I think its Road racings best source for new blood.

What's kind of funny is when I asked to change the LRP schedule making Friday qualifying actually count, I was told no one will come Friday because they have to work.
And if they can't make Friday they wont come on Saturday.......My how things have changed :-)

Now we will be racing on Friday/Saturday at Thompson and practicing on Thursday!

[StephenB]

I agree with dan and think if we did change points keep it as the more points the better... I do agree with the others though and make it benefit participation with extra points for every car you beat that takes the start. Then we could even have an overall NERRC champion, which would be cool! I also think we should continue drops since that keeps this affordable and not a budget wins all championship. Based on the results the drop system we have works well in most every class that I can see.

Stephen

[StephenB]

20 points for first
18 for second
16 for third
14 for fourth
Then 13,12,11,10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1,0 respectively after that.

Then 1 bonus point for every car you beat that took the start.
Count your best 10 finishes. In the event if a tie you add your 11th finish then 12 and so on till a winner is decided. It is highly unlikely but possible to still have a tie, at that point they thumb wrestle at the banquet.

Stephen

[team-gpracing]

I meant to add that the "bonus" points would be added to the last car in your class. So if you miss a race and there were 12 cars that finished in your class, you would get 13 points (although I like Glenn's idea of different points for different levels of not finishing). Maybe in order to keep large classes from suffering, you can only get a maximum of 10 points, plus bonuses. Kinda like F1 with only the top finishers getting points.

Meh, it was just an idea. Stephen asked for comments...I gave them.

[lawtonglenn]

...Meh, it was just an idea. Stephen asked for comments...I gave them.

3870

[Dano77]

As Stephen said, lower entry fees will bring cars.
We need to make a bigger deal of our events.
Promote our, one of a kind, series NERRC.
make racers want to attend!

Sebring's Turkey Trot (regional) had 340+ entries @ $230.

We have gone from trying to get more entries to discussing a fix for something that isnt broken. Points structure isnt going to draw entries.

Now 3 tracks south of NH might draw some guys from NY/NJ/CT Lime Rock only guys. How doi we attratct them to the series and get them excited about running with us. Like it says, more entries lower costs. Lime Rock draws cars, Palmer is going to attract some as well. Thompson is still fresh. NHMS is long in the tooth and has issues that dont need to be discussed. We know that already. BUT the road to the Championship goes through NH.

This does not need to be a big long disertation on costs and structure. Just Ideas as simple as Challange guys in your class to a race, North VS South who knows. Call the NJRRS guys out and see if they show up. We did to the Canadians and they showed up for years. Maybe event tee shirts to draw attention to a race or series. Its going to be tough to attract a Large sponsor to do every class. BUT Maybe the NERRC SM Championship by Flatout, The NERRC IT7 Championship by it7racing.com, The NERRC F2000 Championship by Widgets INC.

The worst any one can say is no, every no is one step closer to a yes. Try asking for a little support for your class. Promote our series and MAKE racers want to attend.

Any Ideas??????

[StephenB]

Dan, Got your VM, Will call a little later...

I think sometimes we can look within aka points. What if the points battle was super close in your class heading into the last race at Thompson, could you convince that buddy to show up?

How about if you knew you could earn just enough points to make you overall champion in nerrc but you need to beat 5guys in that last race? Would you try super hard to get 5 guys to show up? Again just an idea to toss around, most people are not going after the championship and don't attend a majority of the races.

I am working on an awesome sponser for every champion... more to come on that soon, @ the banquet... :-)

[Dano77]

I agree a close points battle is a sure way to get entries. Look at IT7 last season, second and third were up for grabs and I know some showed up just to try and get the next position. Jason entered purly due to trying to bet Gregs big Dick.

But the points system used is not the reason cars dont go to NHMS, lets leave it alone until its an issue. Lets work on attracting teams and cars to the series.

Talk to you later

[gran racing]

Have you lost ALL respect? How dare you leave out Hairy.

Is there a general feel for how many people truly pursue the championship, versus happen to be included in the points since they happened to be at that event?

[georgethefierce]

Everyone wants a chance to beat Greg's Big Hairy Dick.

[StephenB]

Well we will see how many go to the banquet... maybe a few more actually care as well but I bet out of everyone that participates it's a low percentage. As with anything unless your in the position to place you tend not to care as much especially when at our level many race weekend to Weekend.

[ner88]

Have you lost ALL respect? How dare you leave out Hairy.

Is there a general feel for how many people truly pursue the championship, versus happen to be included in the points since they happened to be at that event?

Dave, that's a question I have asked for years at meetings. How do you measure success??

They say the divisional championship was a success because (my numbers may be off a bit) 135 racers ran 5 or more races.
Well, that's 2 1/2 events out of 8 events???
Would you or should we consider that a success??
Heck, SM didn't have a champion because no one ran the minimum events to qualify!

I don't believe the majority of racers care to or can afford to chase traveling series today.

Look at the NARRC results, how many racers actually chased points???

Pro IT, great series but how many guys actually follow it????

Why we race has gone in a different direction over the last few years, Regions, Divisions and National need to recognize this!

Ok, I'm done!

[gran racing]

Why we race has gone in a different direction over the last few years, Regions, Divisions and National need to recognize this!

Absolutely agree. I don't even know who won in my own class! LOL That's pretty crazy about SM; didn't know that.

[jwasilko]

Well we will see how many go to the banquet... maybe a few more actually care as well but I bet out of everyone that participates it's a low percentage. As with anything unless your in the position to place you tend not to care as much especially when at our level many race weekend to Weekend.

I wish I could make the banquet, but it's the same weekend as my wife's company Christmas party.

[Greg Amy]

Jason entered purly due to trying to [beat] Gregs big Dick.

Jason's welcome to give that a shot any time he wants.

Sorry, wrong forum...

[georgethefierce]

Jason's welcome to give that a shot any time he wants.

Sorry, wrong forum...


see post #70

[Greg Amy]

see post #70

Dammit! Late to my own joke...

[lateapex911]

Jerry- my one opinion on championships....
One year, when my program was running reliably, I looked at the schedule and chose the races that I wanted to compete for the win in. IIRC, I couldn't go to the ARRC that year due to a conflict, and after looking at the schedule, I saw that if i added a few races, I could compete for the NARRC. (This was '08) As I recall there had been some rules changes, that made the concept more palatable. I think the changes made the series less "Run every race and finish" and more "Run a moderate amount of select races, but you'll have to do WELL".
I'm glad I did it, and the Championship came down to the last race at Lime Rock..the NARRC Runoffs, in the rain, and a 3rd overall/first in class clinched it for me. (IT7, ran with ITA that year)

But....I had little desire to go for a repeat. I had to go to Pocono. (Yeccch), and NH was repeated twice (yechh) ...I had to skip the spring race there, putting me in a big hole.
And the Pocono race resulted in damage that affected my performance at the IT-Fest in Mid Ohio which followed closely.

So, it's cool, and all, but, I like the freedom of heading to the race and track that fit my schedule, and racing goals better.
It was fun, glad I did it and proved to myself that if I applied myself that I could do it, but once was enough!

Before I decided to take a crack, I was turned off by how it was run. Too many weak drivers won it, with their highest finish being a 5th in fields of 12. Thats just a trophy for entering and finishing the most races. The changes to a more compact "count X number of races" was the impetus for my run....I had to win most races to get the trophy.

Again, thats just my opinion.

[ner88]

There were people on the NARRC committee that would always push for the "all races count"
I would always argue against.
Towards the end, oh wait, did I say end??, I was able to win out and have throwaways.

[gran racing]

I think the biggest challenge is we have too many events and tracks luring entrants, which is a good problem to have. If someone doesn't like one track, why go there just for a "championship" when they have another more attractive option to them on the same weekend? I think a series works much better in geographic areas where there is one primary track, then they dabble in a couple others such as done in the WDCR.

Maybe there's a way to make it more attractive to people; just not sure how.

[mossaidis]

There were people on the NARRC committee that would always push for the "all races count"

I would always argue against.
Towards the end, oh wait, did I say end??, I was able to win out and have throwaways.

me too but just one throwaway. Granted my NARRC win has in 2013 and NARRC ITA has been was on the slow decline for while, so basically I have lots more room for improvement. Anyways, I checked with the past ITA NARRC wins before 2013 and overall, regardless of rules variation, to win NARRC on average you needed to finish top 3 in every race. Since participation was lower in 2013, I clinched ITA before NARRCoffs. My point, NARRC points rules worked well, at least in ITA. It rewarded commitment, reliability and you had a strong chance if you had a top 3 finish at every race.