April 2014 Fastrack

[pfrichardson]

The prelims are posted:

http://www.scca.com/clubracing/content.cfm?cid=44472

Please also review Racing Memo 14-06 located on the same web page.

[tom91ita]

looks like my car just gained 42.3 pounds. :shrug:

Q. regarding the waving white flag for the last lap. How do they know if it is the last lap for a timed event? (thinking about the green after race was over for the SM group at Sebring).

[Butch Kummer]

When to show the "1 to Go" signal continues to be a collaborative effort involving Start, T&S, and the Operating Stewards. Procedures are in place and education is ongoing.

All we're doing here is defining a standard "1 to Go" signal for all SCCA events as being the same one that's used for every racing event in the world short of F-1.

[Greg Amy]

Tom, which car?

Interesting: you "finish" if you take the green flag, but don't get points unless you go halfway...what was the drive for that change?

Edit: Tom, are you talking about the B16A engine in STL? That's a JDM engine. Are you not using a US-spec engine?

[tom91ita]

Tom, which car?....

sorry. STL. The B16A is now "Chart + 2%."

is a B16A considered the equivalent of a "mini" ITR?



3. #13514 (Edmond Lo) Japanese Engine swap
In STL Table A, classify the Honda B16A as follows:
STL
Maximum Displacement
Minimum Weight
Notes
Honda/Acura B16A
Chart +2%
Must meet all STL engine regulations

[Greg Amy]

sorry. STL. The B16A is now "Chart + 2%."

is a B16A considered the equivalent of a "mini" ITR?
See my edit above. The "B16A" engine is a JDM engine, which is now approved for STL with a +2% weight (which all JDM engines are now getting). Since you were running at the Runoffs last year, you could not have possibly been running a non-compliant JDM engine...I'm assuming you're running a US-spec engine.

GA

[Chip42]

Since it is no different in STL prep, you would be a fool to claim a B16A vs. An A2 or 3. Stamping on the block is irrelevant So long as the part matches USDM specs.

Or am I missing something?

[tom91ita]

See my edit above. The "B16A" engine is a JDM engine, which is now approved for STL with a +2% weight (which all JDM engines are now getting). Since you were running at the Runoffs last year, you could not have possibly been running a non-compliant JDM engine...I'm assuming you're running a US-spec engine.

GA

that's right!

i forgot that i bought a B16A block and had it overbored 1 mm and moved the rest of the B16A2 internals over to the freshened block!

whatever....

just curious why someone asked a question when we already had an answer.

[Greg Amy]

Since it is no different in STL prep, you would be a fool to claim a B16A vs. An A2 or 3. Stamping on the block is irrelevant So long as the part matches USDM specs.
I can neither confirm nor deny the existence of your premise.


just curious why someone asked a question when we already had an answer.
Guess they never talked to Chip...

[tom91ita]

the frustrating part is if I submit something to get this straightened out and say "but they are the same in STL...." then it may result in the B16A2 getting a 2% adder as well.

is there a ST advisory committee? and if so, do they see these rules before the CRB rules on these rules?

[Greg Amy]

First, I'm on the STAC. The STAC reviews and makes recommendations to the CRB.

Second, don't send in a request for clarification. It has already been discussed. Nothing will change.

Third, there is nothing to straighten out. All non-US-market engines are getting a 2% adder. The B16A is a non-US-market engine. Period, no debate. Thus, it gets a 2% adder.

Fourth, the STAC - and by extension, the CRB - cannot simply go on record and declare "hey, you can use this engine freely because it's exactly the same thing" because it would take about 1.32 nanoseconds before someone shows up with some wild-assed Portugese-only-spec engine and claims it's the same thing as the one that came in their Us market car.

Fifth, we've discussed this here before: the STCS - and even the ITCS - states, paraphrased, that alternate parts are allowed as long as they are duplicates of the original parts. So, make sure the parts are the same, to the satisfaction of your competitors and the Scrutineers. Just don't expect a carte-blanche CRB approval for your alternate parts, as you will not get it.

GA

[lawtonglenn]

I can neither confirm nor deny the existence of your premise.


I can certainly confirm the existence of his premise ... but the accuracy of it???

:D

[Greg Amy]

I can certainly confirm the existence of his premise ... but the accuracy of it???

:D
You've been Glomar'd...

[tom91ita]

Greg,

Thanks for the clarification.

about all i really know about this motor is that it was an abandoned CRX swap project in a barn in southern Minnesota.

i dragged it out of some kid's grandfather's barn and onto Jabaay's borrowed trailer and gave the kid $1500 for the signed title. i sold the shell for $1100 and gave Jabaay $100 for helping me find the B16 and for pulling the motor and finding a buyer for the shell.

then i put it into my car the week before the runoffs. the whole alphabet soup of A vs. A2 vs. A3 and OBD0, OBDI, OBDII i am still trying to sort out. most of what i learned/forgot is from WIKI.

i am going to convert it to OBDI(?) so i will at least know what distributor to buy if i have a failure.

[Greg Amy]

about all i really know about this motor is that it was an abandoned CRX swap project in a barn in southern Minnesota.
If I were not on the STAC, I would recommend that you research the engine to the best of your ability to ensure its compliance to the specs as found in the workshop manual for the Honda B16A2 or A3 ('99 Civic Si, Del Sol.)

Then I'd suggest taking a grinder and grinding off the engine block identification such that there is no question (though its absence may cause some questions, to which you'll respond "let's toss some paper and measure some parts".)

But I am on the committee, so I probably shouldn't suggest that publicly (http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showpost.php?p=351711&postcount=46)...

GA

[jjjanos]

Tom, which car?

Interesting: you "finish" if you take the green flag, but don't get points unless you go halfway...what was the drive for that change?

Still need to finish a certain # of races to keep your license?
Need a number of finishes to get to the dumboffs?

:shrug:

[TomL]

The way I read it, they have simply renamed "starters" as "finishers", and renamed "DNF" as "doesn't get points". Not sure why they did it, but the obvious effect is that it is now easier to meet "number of finishes" requirements for things such as Runoffs qualification.

Its sort of like what happened to SARRC a few years back where the requirement for running the SIC was changed from 3 finishes to 3 starts. The given reason was to not penalize those who supported the series but had the misfortune to drop out.

[Z3_GoCar]

looks like my car just gained 42.3 pounds. :shrug:

Q. regarding the waving white flag for the last lap. How do they know if it is the last lap for a timed event? (thinking about the green after race was over for the SM group at Sebring).

So if Start/Finish waves the white flag for the last lap, how do you know that it's not for a slow car/tow/fire on track? Or said another way, what does Start/Finish wave for a slow car/tow/fire on course on the second to last lap. You could get two white flags at S/F in a row with two different meanings, talk about confusing and causing a protest.

I prefer the simple [1] sign as there's no other meaning.

[jjjanos]

So if Start/Finish waves the white flag for the last lap, how do you know that it's not for a slow car/tow/fire on track? Or said another way, what does Start/Finish wave for a slow car/tow/fire on course on the second to last lap. You could get two white flags at S/F in a row with two different meanings, talk about confusing and causing a protest.

I prefer the simple [1] sign as there's no other meaning.

Flag for a slow car isn't waved. It is simply displayed.

[Chip42]

Greg,

Thanks for the clarification.

about all i really know about this motor is that it was an abandoned CRX swap project in a barn in southern Minnesota.

i dragged it out of some kid's grandfather's barn and onto Jabaay's borrowed trailer and gave the kid $1500 for the signed title. i sold the shell for $1100 and gave Jabaay $100 for helping me find the B16 and for pulling the motor and finding a buyer for the shell.

then i put it into my car the week before the runoffs. the whole alphabet soup of A vs. A2 vs. A3 and OBD0, OBDI, OBDII i am still trying to sort out. most of what i learned/forgot is from WIKI.

i am going to convert it to OBDI(?) so i will at least know what distributor to buy if i have a failure.

tom - if you have the old B16A intake, the one that looks like a ~93 integra's with a PGM-FI badge on it, that will have to go in favor of a A2 or A3 manifold, which should be better anyhow. to the best of my knowledge, the motors are otherwise identical in all STCS relevant ways.

and tGA - I'm not trying to be a pain, just kinda scratching my head here. will the listed VW EDM motor be getting a 2% bump, too?

[Greg Amy]

will the listed VW EDM motor be getting a 2% bump, too?
Not unless you ask for it...it snuck in before CRB started adding adders...

[mossaidis]

A GT2 EG Honda Civic HB with a K20A at 1830 lbs... interesting.

[Andy Bettencourt]

If I were not on the STAC, I would recommend that you research the engine to the best of your ability to ensure its compliance to the specs as found in the workshop manual for the Honda B16A2 or A3 ('99 Civic Si, Del Sol.)

Then I'd suggest taking a grinder and grinding off the engine block identification such that there is no question (though its absence may cause some questions, to which you'll respond "let's toss some paper and measure some parts".)

But I am on the committee, so I probably shouldn't suggest that publicly (http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showpost.php?p=351711&postcount=46)...

GA

What an awesome rule!!!! Now I have no visual evidence of what you claim is in the car and what your weight is based off of. I effectively have to throw paper and tear you down just to know. Ugh.

Edit: Make JDM stuff illegal unless approved on a spec line, period. Are JDM blocks that much easier to find or something? What's the point in sourcing something from overseas if it's the 'same' as the local sauce?

[mossaidis]

Are JDM blocks that much easier to find or something?

Assembled, low mileage JDM motors which meet the USDM-spec rule and are compliant with the STL regs are plentiful in the US. Here's one example:

http://www.jspecauto.com/

[Andy Bettencourt]

Assembled, low mileage JDM motors which meet the USDM-spec rule and are compliant with the STL regs are plentiful in the US. Here's one example:

http://www.jspecauto.com/

Are they cheaper and more 'available' than US spec units?

[Chip42]

To the extent that they are sold to swap, used as swaps, and often wind up in stillborn projects vs pulled from the few cars sold stateside with that engine, yeah, they are.

[mossaidis]

Are they cheaper and more 'available' than US spec units?

More available yes. In better shape yes. Cheaper... maybe in the 3rd hand market. Chip is correct as well.

[Greg Amy]

Andy, we've already argumentated this, many times (see the link you quoted for the thread for the last time you complained about this). The number that's on the block is irrelevant, as it is absolutely no evidence of compliance, nor is it required on the block for it to be compliant.

If you think seeing the number stamped on the block is sufficient evidence that someone is not cheating in Super Touring - and Improved Touring, too, since it's the same exact reg - you're not using your imagination.

GA

[tom91ita]

To the extent that they are sold to swap, used as swaps, and often wind up in stillborn projects vs pulled from the few cars sold stateside with that engine, yeah, they are.

I have seen swaps that were well cared for babies and others that were outright abortions.

But stillborn best describes the car I pulled mine from.....

[Andy Bettencourt]

More available yes. In better shape yes. Cheaper... maybe in the 3rd hand market. Chip is correct as well.

OK, just trying to justify to myself that the JDM flow of some of these engines is a source that can actually benefit the average racer. If they are more plentiful, in better condition and in most cases cheaper than USDM products, then it is worth it to not single them out as problem children by their JDM designation, even if they are potentially the 'same' as their cousins.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Andy, we've already argumentated this, many times (see the link you quoted for the thread for the last time you complained about this). The number that's on the block is irrelevant, as it is absolutely no evidence of compliance, nor is it required on the block for it to be compliant.

If you think seeing the number stamped on the block is sufficient evidence that someone is not cheating in Super Touring - and Improved Touring, too, since it's the same exact reg - you're not using your imagination.

GA

Of course that is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that in a class that is based in the cc's of the motor, fostering a 'need' of grinding off the identification numbers that tell people at the very least what that lump started life out as, is ridiculous. Help the competitors by specifically allowing non-USDM motors in the STCS that have been submitted and verified as 'equal' to their USDM counterparts.

And it's NOT the same reg. We have arguedmentotured that too. No place in the ITCS does it specifically disallow part 'X' but then say that if part 'X' is the same as part 'Y' it's legal. The ITCS says that both parts 'Y' AND anything exactly the same as part 'Y', are legal regardless of origin...certainly not necessitating the need to 'hide' the original origin. It may be symantics but I am hung up on it. So be it.

[Greg Amy]

And it's NOT the same reg.
Yes it is.


No place in the ITCS does it specifically disallow part 'X'...ITCS 9.1.3.A: "...cars will be models, as offered for sale in the United States."


...but then say that if part 'X' is the same as part 'Y' it's legal.ITCS 9.1.3.C: "Stock replacement parts may be obtained from sources other than the manufacturer provided they are the exact equivalent of the original parts."

And leaving the block number on doesn't make it non-compliant; grinding it off just stops the bitching.

Oh, wait a sec... ;)

[Greg Amy]

Full version is up...

http://www.scca.com/assets/14-fastrack-april.pdf

[CRallo]

So no shake up in B yet? Or did I miss something along the way?

[Chip42]

So no shake up in B yet? Or did I miss something along the way?

you haven't missed anything. we've stopped the blockade on new classifications and "easy" corrections just to keep things moving, but the class-wide update is not complete.