Order of cars going out for qualifying

[gran racing]

In order to eliminate cars showing up along side the grid fence a qualifying session or two before their time to qualify, would it be possible for other solutions? Some other regions base it upon previous qualifying times or just by pulling a number out of a hat.

What are peoples' thoughts about doing this? How difficult would it be to make happen?

[Greg Amy]

I like what MARRS does - a lot. It avoids congestion before the grid and allows reduction in stress in trying to fight for a preferred spot on the grid.

Can someone obtain their procedures? Maybe it's something we can discuss here in NER.

[MMiskoe]

Anyone lined up along the road leading to grid prior to grid being emptied for the previous session gets sent to pit lane to be started after the session is green by the mercy of pit out.

After being told "get over yourself, you're racing for an ashtray."

[gran racing]

The it just becomes a race to grid once it opens up. Yes, it's an ashtray but it's an ashtray many of us spend a lot of money and time to get.


GRID: Grids for Saturday morning qualifying will be set in advance by the Driver Representatives and will be posted at Registration. The Saturday afternoon race grids will be set by Saturday morning qualifying. Sunday's race grids (including the bonus race) will be set by the fastest lap from either Saturday session.

I'll reach out to the region to get a better understanding of this.

[lawtonglenn]

...After being told "get over yourself, you're racing for an ashtray."


LOL that line should be used much more often!

[Wreckerboy]

MARRS has done it both by points and by (historical) times. I believe the process is chosen by the individual class reps, and not by sweeping edict, thus each run group may differ. Reach out to Dave Parker and/or Matt Yip for details.

SAARC/MARRS at VIR is done by the host regions rules, and thus a land rush. Some less attentive MARRS regulars were caught out by that last year.

[dickita15]

how big a problem is this. I have not noticed it in my race group much. is it just an SM thing?

[ner88]

Its a problem??? for who??? Never heard anyone complain until now:shrug:
Do we really need another rule :D

[Greg Amy]

how big a problem is this. I have not noticed it in my race group much. is it just an SM thing?
SM and any class where SMs run. So, yeah.

Go watch the grid entrance at any NER event (e.g., NHMS, LRP, WGI). You need to be there at the beginning of the prior race group to be anywhere except the way back in your own group*.

I personally don't feel the compulsion to be at the front; you're going to run into Miata traffic no matter where you are (and in fact, a lot of Miata and Miata-like drivers are starting to run side-by-side up front to keep the 'out' lap extremely slow and back up the whole field). My only beef with being Tail End Charlie is that I lose a lap of practice each time (mostly because when I finally get out, everybody is running at 40mph because of the imposed congestion at the front).

GA

* If you're perpetually late to the grid, you probably never noticed it... ;)

[quadzjr]

I have never had that problem.

I assume they are doing this so they can be infront of the line when quali starts? Is this just to get clean track? I usually wait till 2nd call or so.. drive down there.. get back out of the car. hop in once the previous group gets the checker, get ready under the 5 and ready by the 1.

I race in the South East.. so sitting in my car not moving for any more time than necessary sounds like a bad idea.

I often in quali find myself in traffic.. that is okay. I will slow up.. cool myself and the car down, get a gap to the cars ahead and make another go at a lap. Does this not work for others?

In reference to the Miatae slowing people down.. can you not pass them?

[tom91ita]

I only get to grid early enuf to get a short nap.

[gran racing]

Guess you haven't seen the pre-race Lawton and Bettencourt had getting to the fence first? LOL! I have since spoken with the WDCR and much of how this is handled depends upon the class reps. Some do it on historical lap times, they know typically who the fast drivers are, or by pick of the hat selection.


Is this just to get clean track?

Oh hell yeah. In the NER where Lime Rock produces just over a min a lap, there's absolutely an advantage to getting out first. I tell the drivers right behind me that I'm going relatively slow the first 1/2 lap, then am on it. Normally I'm just fine getting it done the first or second flying lap and often pit early. Also wonder if this will be the case with Thompson.


Does this not work for others?

I'm with ya and one of those guys where people often come up to me after wondering if I had a mechanical issue as I'm pointing them by driving off line. Yet on the short tracks, it seems that there's often some darn Bug Eye or other car which makes things more challenging.

After experiencing the WDCR region, I kept thinking how I wish other regions did this. When the random draw happens, in some weird way it adds to the excitement a little even if you don't believe it matters.


so sitting in my car not moving for any more time than necessary sounds like a bad idea.

Who said anything about sitting in the car? :) Park it and get out. Besides, there's a 1/2 hour before qual begins.

Is this a major issue? No. Yet it's something that I and others do consider an easy improvement to the process. I'm not complaining or whining; just offering a possible way to make things better.

[ner88]

Ok, so if there are guys that find it important and no one is complaining :shrug:
why make the change?

[lawtonglenn]

Guess you haven't seen the pre-race Lawton and Bettencourt had getting to the fence first? LOL!


not me ... Jeff Lawton ... no relation!

[Greg Amy]

Ok, so if there are guys that find it important and no one is complaining :shrug:
Sounds like someone is complaining... ;)

I don't like the dash for pre-grid (the JLawton/ABettencourt pre-grid race was a hoot, well worth the North Garage slot just to watch). I love the way WDCR does it. Makes things run a lot smoother with a lot less hassles, stress, and guesswork for the competitor. Drivers have no say in where they grid, just show up right at the "five" and be done with it.

It does require extra effort from Control and Grid; someone will have to determine grid order, and Grid will have to line 'em up like they do for races. Drivers will likely think it's worth the extra effort, but will Control and Grid...? Probably not.

GA

[StephenB]

I think the congestion at LRP could be and probably is a problem. The second we need to get an emergency vehicle through we will need to do something about it. At NHMS I haven't noticed such an issue. But for sure at LRP the ITS/R/B group does the same thing, even me to a certain extent. The only thing I worry about is IF we all wait till 5min then it's a mad stressful dash for he grid workers to get everyone in place.

Stephen

[stevestratton]

Last year in MARRS ITA we went with fastest time and that worked out well for the most part. In the prod/SP/ST/LC run group practice we did the random draw. I was all for the random draw until I noticed I was always in the high 20's. I started to get resentful and then I realized I need driving in traffic practice. By the end of the season I really liked starting practice at the back figuring out how to get by various levels of talent and car prep (Not that I did a lot). Now maintaining fast laps with traffic is a goal for me.

BTW - I am also one of those guys that said I'd rather come in 2,3,4,5,6 in a close race versus run away.

[Wreckerboy]

Qualifying grid slots, at least in WDCR SSM, are huge. It's the difference between qualifying well in a 30+ car field that typically see the top 15 qualified within two seconds on a 1:28 pace and being stuck in "working man's territory" outside of the top five or so. We also have a agreement to take it easy on the out lap, running at reduced pace for approx 3/4 of the first lap to allow the entire field to clear the grid before coming up to full speed. It works for both the front and rear of the field, allowing a clear track for all. It's important enough that last Labor Day when my qualifying slot for Monday was hosed due to a administrative error and I was placed mid-pack instead of up front I buttonholed everybody I could find until it got fixed (thanks Shirley and Gail!).

It's not perfect - more than once I've been caught behind somebody who was asleep at the go point (the field is shown a standing yellow for the out lap) and watched the leaders and my drafting partners disappear into the distance. At Summmit, in SSM, the draft is worth about a half to three quarters of a second.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Guilty. I loved to be first. If I wasn't (maybe 2nd or 3rd) I would tell the people in front of me that I was coming around them in the first few turns so don't 'warm your tires into me' while the track is green.

I had my strategy to be P1 and as long as it doesn't create an issue, I don't see it as such. To me, this is Grid's call. If they feel the congestion is prohibiting proper flow, then a change should be made. Never heard any issues with the 'lines' before.

The MARRS solution sounds great but requires extra volunteer(s) and time. If you can do it, do it!

[Knestis]

If the problem is cars lined up somewhere they shouldn't be, then all that's needed is "Fire Lane" signage or some yellow paint and someone willing to enforce the rule. If someone is speeding in the paddock to get to their session, their penalty should be to sit in their car for 30 minutes to think about the error of their ways.

But it doesn't sound like those issues are really at the root of the complaint. Some want a policy that lets the fast people start at the front for their qualifying sessions, to help maintain their competitive status quo. Or at least a rule that blunts any perceived advantage for those willing to get their car to the grid area an hour before a session.

If you really want a 4-car drafting package for qualifying, get three friends and roll to the grid together.

What problem are you trying to solve?

At the end of the day, though, P&G has to think it matters because whatever the problem is, you're making it theirs by adding work to their day. It reflects my decades-long perspective on multi-class group racing but I personally don't think that the organizers have any obligation to eliminate the vagaries and confusion of mixed groups. A big part of what should sort the big girls from those tripping over their panties is how well they deal with that stuff.

If parked cars or congestion are a problem, address that directly. Then invoke the ash tray rule...

K

EDIT - Remember that if you grid qualifying by fastest practice session time, you just shove the problem to that session.

[Ed Funk]

$$$$ for your spot....highest bidder wins. Bucks go to worker awards or Racing Against Leukemia. If it's so effin' important, put up or shut up.

[gran racing]

It's not so effn' important; I've done just fine without it. Just don't want to be stuck behind some slow CRX. :o

Obviously many people believe there is a competitive advantage to getting their nice and early hence securing a spot out front. Gotta think about the tracks which is why I posted this in the NER area. Watkins Glen, Road Atlanta, even Summit it's a bit less of an issue. Lime Rock?

I don't think doing a random pick from a hat adds that much extra work. Maybe the grid workers would even find it fun?


It does take a lot of stress out of the weekend, for organizers, volunteers, and drivers.

That's from the folks that actually organize this and do it now. Again, not a big issue but thought it was an idea implemented by other regions that I enjoyed while racing with them. Doesn't hurt to at least look at what other regions are doing when customers are liking the addition to the product.

[Andy Bettencourt]

It's for sure the way I am fastest with the least possibility for damage. Every lap you are out there in traffic is a chance to get caught up in an incident. I go out first, take 3-4 flyers, make sure I am at where I need to be, come in get tire pressures adjusted and find a hole for as many non-traffic laps as I can get. As soon as I hit any traffic after that I am done. Usually on take 6-7 qualifying laps.

Again, not seeing an actual problem until Grid tells us there is one. But if it turns out to be an issue then change it. Just get Grid's buy in because they will have to administer.

[Matt93SE]

So let me get this straight.. nobody wants traffic during qualifying because they gotta get a fast lap in, yet you're going to be on a sub 1:00 track with 30 of your closest friends? How many laps do you get before you're fighting with the also-rans? sure, passing is going to be more difficult while qualifying but it's part of short-track racing, no?

(Yes, I like kicking the beehive.)

[gran racing]

I absolutely love traffic during a race and don't mind it in qualifying when my competitors are facing the same challenge. The reason (I believe) some regions including the WDCR does this is to make things more equitable. Yes, there's an advantage to going out first. If you don't think there is, let me go out in front.

Andy, I just see this as a way for competitors not having to rush to grid or be watching others to ensure they get their earlier. I know that I pay attention as do you.

If I were in SM, I'd be there as early as it took. Same with SSM in WDCR.

[ajmr2]

Years ago the MARRS series tolerated the paddock pre grid thing, but changed to the current procedure due to safety concerns and the need to keep those roads clear and speeds down. I personally find it excellent. Our normal qualifying procedure is that we line up according to the predetermined list, but the grid folks certainly don't mind it since it's the same as their race grid procedure. The ITS guys line up first and the rest of us behind. We are immediately given a green flag as we come out of pit out, and those ITS guys normally come around pretty quickly. I don't waste time scubbing tires since we only need one good lap, which for me usually comes in the 2nd half of the session if I have a little luck and keep an eye in my mirrors. I have rarely heard anyone complain about it.

[MMiskoe]

I don't think doing a random pick from a hat adds that much extra work.

So you'll be taking care of it then. Sounds like the problem is solved - Dave's going to cover it. See you at grid.

[Knestis]

Random observations (of bees, perhaps)...

** A random drawing, while "equitable" in the sense that everyone has a chance of getting any givens spot, won't be perceived as equitable when random chance leaves someone feeling like they got screwed (see "I kept ending up in the 20s" earlier).

** A process that puts the historically faster cars in front (like I stepped into at a MARRS weekend) is NOT equitable for the new addition to the grid; instead it helps lock in established IN-equities that favor the frontrunners.

** Some folks may not prefer being up front, so ending up there won't be a "win" for them. In a mixed group (a la ITS/ITB ) I've often found advantages by being tail-end Charlie, giving a lot of room in front of me with a slow first lap, then poaching off of the fast guys' air when they catch and pass me on the straights.

K

[Wreckerboy]

Random observations (of bees, perhaps)...

** A process that puts the historically faster cars in front (like I stepped into at a MARRS weekend) is NOT equitable for the new addition to the grid; instead it helps lock in established IN-equities that favor the frontrunners.

K

K, you make some valid points, but I will take exception to this one. Based upon personal experience as a one time "new addition to (a MARRS) grid" I faced this same issue. The solution wasn't simple, but it was workable - I raced my way to the front. When I first started racing in the MARRS series I was gridded in the wayback portion of the field - often starting a qualifying session 30th or worse. For a few seasons the existence of the pace car was only an ugly rumour perpetuated by the 2% up front. Of course the front runners had the advantage of a clear track, and I had to earn my way there. It meant that as a relative newbie that I needed to work on developing enough racecraft to figure out how to get that flier to at least get me within shouting distance of the sharp edge of the pack.

[Greg Amy]

(If someone wants to start from the back instead their "earned" spot up front - either through speed or lottery - they can simply show up at the grid at the "one"...gives you five more minutes of prep time, too...)

[Knestis]

K, you make some valid points, but I will take exception to this one. Based upon personal experience as a one time "new addition to (a MARRS) grid" I faced this same issue. The solution wasn't simple, but it was workable - I raced my way to the front. When I first started racing in the MARRS series I was gridded in the wayback portion of the field - often starting a qualifying session 30th or worse. For a few seasons the existence of the pace car was only an ugly rumour perpetuated by the 2% up front. Of course the front runners had the advantage of a clear track, and I had to earn my way there. It meant that as a relative newbie that I needed to work on developing enough racecraft to figure out how to get that flier to at least get me within shouting distance of the sharp edge of the pack.

So (recognizing that I'm involved in this really as an academic exercise) why shouldn't it be necessary for EVERYONE to "race their way in" afresh each weekend (a la as would be the case with a randomly assigned qualifying session starting spot)? How about rewarding the kind of racecraft you describe over historical success...?

Kirk (who tends to lean away from established power structures on race weekends in addition to in his politics)

[Dano77]

Not for nothing, but, I always go out as far back as possable. This is mostly due to laziness, I just cant get to grid early. The car is hot, the suit is hot, Im hot. Its just an exercise in dehydration.
With NHMS and LRP haveing giant straights, you can pretty much time the go portion of the session with the mirror. Let all the guys go out and mess each other up racing for the win in practice and slowly reel them in. It only takes a few laps to get a good time by yourself. By then Andy, or whomever is by me and I pick up some pointers and line secrets from them. Also known as learning the weak points of the adversary. Art of war. Cause really, thats what this is.

If it aint broke, Why are we trying to fix it.

[Wreckerboy]

Kirk, upon recognizing an academic exercise when I see one, I would suggest that your Darwinian approach has valid points. And when Darwin gets his comp license we'll address them.

:smilie_pokal:

[ulfelder]

I'm also one of Those Guys. I blame Bettencourt, he's a bad influence. :) At Lime Rock in particular, with 30+ R/S/B cars on track, you get an out lap, one flyer, and then miserable traffic.

[jumbojimbo]

This is GLD dirty laundry but at MO a certain pair of hondas would get to grid super early and be 1-2. Then spend the whole first lap "warming tires" at 30mph to gather everyone behind them literally blocking anyone from passing. Then the primary could would take off while the secondary car would ensure no one else got by, essentially setting a max possible lap time. They get traffic free laps, everyone else is in a gaggle of traffic. They are gone now, but I was prepared to protest them the next time it happened if they blocked me from passing on the out lap.

I like to go out early because I use that out lap as practice for lap 1 of the race. Plus, I like getting an extra lap, especially at Nelson where qualifying can be as short as 10 minutes. Nothing worse than having no clean laps and seeing the checker 5 seconds before you get to the line.

Here's a question, if it's not broken, why is it a problem if someone comes up with a lower stress solution?

[Knestis]

So how's that rule going to be worded to assure that a-holes are at the back of the qualifying grid? Or is there a chance the new plan would just reinforce their "right" to be there?

We can't legislated away misbehavior. If someone is going to pull crap like that, it's going to take enforcement - starting with the rules they are already breaking.

Crashing into someone's camera-equipped car on the straight under a green flag is going to be a little hard to explain away, particularly if that same camera captures your crew person letting them know on the grid that you anticipate passing them if they aren't fully up to speed when you're ready to rock...

K

[Ed Funk]

After we get this pressing issue sorted out, I'd really like the group to give some serious thought to the problem of reserved paddock areas. It's so stressful to arrive at the track without knowing in advance where I'm going to be paddocked. Perhaps a system based on years in the sport and/or age of the driver and proximity to the men's room (or latrine in the case of Nelson Ledges).

The method of lining up on the road with trucks and trailers and having an "Oklahoma Land Rush" when the gaits are opened just doesn't seem safe...tho it does provide a way of getting rid of Miatae without damaging my race car.

[Greg Amy]

Sarcasm aside, WDCR does it...and I love it.

But apparently NER's attitude is "if it ain't broke, why fix it?"

Just sayin'. Well, actually, they're sayin'... ;)

[Ed Funk]

How 'bout Time Trial style....cars released individually, 15 sec gaps, 3 laps max? Might take "a bit" longer to run a qualifying session, but everyone gets to have a "flyer" without that pesky traffic.

[Greg Amy]

I don't mind traffic. In fact, I use traffic to my advantage. I don't like the qually "land rush" because:

- I don't want to sit on the grid for 30 minutes, so I'm usually in the back;
- Which usually results in my losing at least one lap of practice/qually (I always use the whole session for add'l butt time and learning, guess I'm not as good as others in that regard); and
- Those that do wait for 30 minutes to be at the front of the grid - and let's be honest, it's almost always Miatas - will intentionally block traffic behind them to bunch up the field, causing significant and unnecessary congestion at the back for everyone else (so they can get in a flyer or two before encountering - and bitching about - the very traffic congestion that they themselves caused).

We can either get these drivers to stop engaging in such selfish behavior, or we can implement a top-down process to diffuse the effects of such behavior, or we can just say there's not actually a problem that needs to be fixed and everyone can deal with that non-problem in their own ways.

Doesn't sound like the first two options are really options.

GA

P.S. and to be honest, pre-arranged parking is not a terrible idea, thanks for bringing it up...

[stevestratton]

After we get this pressing issue sorted out, I'd really like the group to give some serious thought to the problem of reserved paddock areas. It's so stressful to arrive at the track without knowing in advance where I'm going to be paddocked. Perhaps a system based on years in the sport and/or age of the driver and proximity to the men's room (or latrine in the case of Nelson Ledges).

The method of lining up on the road with trucks and trailers and having an "Oklahoma Land Rush" when the gaits are opened just doesn't seem safe...tho it does provide a way of getting rid of Miatae without damaging my race car.

Ed, WDCR club racing uses a reserved area paddock map that is part of every supps package. No land rush, per say, everyone knows where to go. Prod and IT are next to the restrooms and grid!:D

[Wreckerboy]

It should be noted that Steve paddocks with Bret and the RP Performance group, who somehow manages to pack about 17 cars in the space others require for just two or three.

The rest of the DC regulars have paddock spots that many have been using for years, but they are always welcoming to strangers. We used to park with the SM field until we got tired of camping in Lake Summit Point and now tend to park up front near the ITA crowd, who has always been friendly and accommodating. Most of the ITB guys are out in the woods where they can't hurt anybody, the GT Pintos are off in a corner where they can't scare anybody off, the open wheel and SRF folks tend to park on the pavement near the IT7s (I guess they are deaf enough to sleep through that noise), and then there's always the Free Turn Five crowd...

[gran racing]

P.S. and to be honest, pre-arranged parking is not a terrible idea, thanks for bringing it up...:) At some of the Labor Day MARRS events I've attended where there were over 300 entrants, it was nice. "Fortunately" we don't have that issue in the N.E. lately.
So you'll be taking care of it then. Sounds like the problem is solved - Dave's going to cover it. See you at grid.I've never had an issue with stepping up, have you? ;) IF it were a concept that my run group were interested in trying, I wouldn't have an issue helping to cover it.

[ajmr2]

Most of the ITB guys are out in the woods where they can't hurt anybody

:happy204:

[ner88]

Paddock space or early grid are never a problem at NHMS, but how would Dave know? :shrug::D
One trip/event a year at LRP for NER and no one complaining, well accept for one!
hardly requires a new rule:(
and....Thompson is an unknown right now!

[gran racing]

I do hate NHMS! LOL

I also never said paddock space is an issue in the N.E.

How was my first post complaining? Merely an idea to discuss something other regions do to determing if regions running races at LRP and other tracks could benefit from this. And I'm not the only one here who likes what the WDCR does. That's fine that many think it isn't a good idea and is a part of this discussion.

And yes, people do complain about this at the track. Absolutely. Not a huge deal to me but it would be one additional item which could reduce stress even just a bit on a race weekend.

[JeffYoung]

SEDiv tracks this matters a lot. You go out first in a tight group at CMP or Roebling or VIR and you are likely to ensure the all important first few clean laps on HoHos.

So yeah, we "fight" for pole position in qualifying by lining up early. Basically when the group before you GOES to grid, you go line up outside teh grid.

[ShelbyRacer]

We should do it in reverse order of lap times, like Driver's School. Actually, there's no spectating at Summit T1 anymore, so nevermind...

Seriously though-
One of the issues I had at Labor Day last year was the ITS/ITB gridded by MARRS points. I had run previously in the year and gotten a 2nd and a 3rd, so I figured I'd be in good shape. Apparently though, my points were never counted, so it didn't help me. Combine that with the fact that my car # is 96 (I think that's how they ordered the no-points crowd), and I was near the back. Keep in mind, the real problem here was not the methodology, but the implementation. Also, I guess if I'd have been more vigilant, I'd have noticed that my points weren't on the list (though I swear that they were at one point).

Aside from that one incident, I'm mostly in favor of it. It's certainly much better than the mad rush I experienced at MidO at ITFest a few years back.

[Wreckerboy]

Matt, your points may or may not have actually been there at various points last year. I know that I had to contact Heidi two or three times to get my points corrected. Each time she was gracious and and corrected things quickly. I don't know what issue they were experiencing last year with points, but I seemed to fall into some sort of (uncharacteristic) black hole in their registration system as well.

Two or three times my registration was so spectacularly hosed that it took Gail to straighten it out. It got to the point where she would see me coming and just tell somebody to "register him how he tells you to do so, I'll fix it later." Not to knock the fine folks in Registration - in fact, just the opposite. I am certain my issues were in the minority, and the people there worked quickly and efficiently to resolve them each time, after time, after time, after time... :D

That's one of those things that keeps me racing with WDCR. Unlike other regions in my recent experience, they know customer service. Problems are few and far between, and when they do crop up the path to resolution clear. And the drivers (I hope) appreciate how good we have it.

Rob, who knows he has just invoked Mr. Murphy in a large way.

[jumbojimbo]

Also GLD bitching, but last year we had an occurrence where we lined up along the road waiting to get to the false grid. The group before us pulled out and just before the false grid was opened a group of about 5 Miatas just drove by us to the front. Pre-grid opens and in they go. But what are you going to do, protest someone for passing in the paddock?

Seems like about 1 out of 5 races there is at least modest discomfort in pre-grid about qualifying order.

[ajmr2]

One of the issues I had at Labor Day last year was the ITS/ITB gridded by MARRS points. I had run previously in the year and gotten a 2nd and a 3rd, so I figured I'd be in good shape. Apparently though, my points were never counted, so it didn't help me. Combine that with the fact that my car # is 96 (I think that's how they ordered the no-points crowd), and I was near the back.

I put in a special request to have you put in the back... Cost me $50. Now THAT'S customer service!

:024:

[ShelbyRacer]

I put in a special request to have you put in the back... Cost me $50. Now THAT'S customer service!

:024:

I wish you'd have told me. I'd have gone to the back on my own for $25...

[ajmr2]

I'll take up a collection next time and don't forget your MARRS stickers. :023:

[Matt Rowe]

Wow - 3 pages in a day on the "race" to get into the race. You can tell it's been a long winter.

Having raced in WDCR I can say having a procedure is great in taking the uncertainty out of the process but it did have it's downside. Notably out of region guys (or those that only make the trip a couple times a year like me) get consistently shuffled to the back and it's one of the reasons I don't race there anymore. I expect the same would happen in NEDIV where people from outside the division would not find any system to be particularly fair.

Second, maybe it's me but I've never had a problem making it into the front of the group in NEDIV just by getting in a driving up after 2nd call. My position on grid for qualifying is less of a concern than the people that block the track on the out lap. I'm more of a heat up the tires by putting them under real load kind of guy. If you want to spend half of the track weaving side to side please keep an eye on your mirrors to make sure you aren't holding people up.

[mlytle]

I like what MARRS does - a lot. It avoids congestion before the grid and allows reduction in stress in trying to fight for a preferred spot on the grid.

Can someone obtain their procedures? Maybe it's something we can discuss here in NER.


MARRS has done it both by points and by (historical) times. I believe the process is chosen by the individual class reps, and not by sweeping edict, thus each run group may differ. Reach out to Dave Parker and/or Matt Yip for details.


WDCR MARRS event pre-grid for the first qual session each weekend is entirely up to the desires of the individual run group. the drivers reps in that group tell grid how they want to be set up at the beginning of the season. options used include, but are not limited to:

random (small bore)

random by class (this is how ITS/ITB does it. fast class in front)

fastest lap time of the season to date (big bore)

MARRS points to date (miata?)

no matter what group you are in, the lack of a pre-grid traffic jam is wonderful.

MARRS has used a reserved paddock area process for many years at summit point (I am the guy that does the reservation map). the amount of space a class gets is based on the average participation of the class in the previous years races. out-of-towners are welcome! as it says in the supps, just call the drivers rep of the group you are in a week or so before the race, tell them what you have for car/trailer and they will try to find you space either in the reserved area for their class or nearby if possible. we routinely "trade" space with adjacent classes as need be.

the goals of both grid and paddock space processes are to reduce stress and chaos on race weekends. more focus on FUN!


Marshall
ex-ITR, now ITS/STU

[JLawton]

I think that now Dave is in ITA, he's a little worried he's gonna lose the race to grid for qualifying!

I am one of those that likes to be out in the front for qualifying. Many times you can get 3 plus laps of clear track. And I've never seen it congested or heard anyone complain. But I've NEVER blocked anyone on the out lap and have NEVER seen that happen except at the first IT Fest race at Mid Ohio. Apparently there was an unspoken rule about the regulars there dictating the out lap pace......... but it would have been nice if they let the rest of the grid know........... it created some VERY dangerous situations.......

Hmmmmmmm, isnt there some video of qualifying at the Run Offs where there was an incident <he says, stirring the pot> :D

I dont see it as a problem in NER......... But maybe because 3/4 of the ITA/IT7 group are a bunch of slackers and can barely get to grid before the one minute................. Man, I crack myself up!!

I cant wait for the season to start...........


.

[gran racing]

Not too worried buddy, the Kessler engine is coming along nicely!!! :D I figure the easiest way is just to paddock near you and when you start getting ready, I'll know it's time.

But yes, looking forward to the race season! I am glad it's still a bit off for me to get some funds together.

[Knestis]

To be clear, if a session is released under the green - as opposed to being FCY for the "first lap" - I'ma gonna be passin' some folks up in heah.

K

[chuck baader]

In SEDIV they are generally shown a white flag on the out lap....react accordingly, but if you are the first 5 or so cars and take it easy for half a lap, you get the couple of clean laps needed.

[jumbojimbo]

To be clear, if a session is released under the green - as opposed to being FCY for the "first lap" - I'ma gonna be passin' some folks up in heah.

K

You mean you think you are going to pass some folks. I'll dig up my video. You tell me if you'd have not backed down. I have no idea why I didn't throw paper.

[Dano77]

Why cant Jeff wait for the race season, Hes not gonna finish his car. Hes a slacker just like the IT7 group he is trying desperatly to make fun of.

And let me re state the obvious, Its Hot outside, and I own one of the Hottest Cars known to man wearing the Hottest Outfit I can find. Im not getting to grid any earlier than I need too.

[Tristan Smith]

Yes, but I believe Chuck and I got called to the stewards office once when we didn't notice the double yellows displayed on our out lap. ooops.

So actually take a look.


In SEDIV they are generally shown a white flag on the out lap....react accordingly, but if you are the first 5 or so cars and take it easy for half a lap, you get the couple of clean laps needed.

[Knestis]

You mean you think you are going to pass some folks. I'll dig up my video. You tell me if you'd have not backed down. I have no idea why I didn't throw paper.

Post it up. I'd love to see the guys who are going to have to explain why they drove into the side of a competitor's car on the straight. :)

K

[RSTPerformance]

Didn't get through all three pages but though I would throw in my .02... Personally at first thought I like the idea of grossing based on points for the first session. Grid order is given out at registration as an "entry list." Anyone who misses early registration is at the back. Ties go by entry order. All of the rest of the sessions are gridded based on results from other sessions as most are now in the northeast with the multi race weekends.

On second thought though, I like going early to see my friends working grid and my fellow competitors. I also enjoy grid ding up with my brother and other close friends so we can spend at least a couple turns together... We do generally try to get up towards the front.

Raymond. "At this point I don't mind how it is done..." Blethen

[dickita15]

I dont see it as a problem in NER......... But maybe because 3/4 of the ITA/IT7 group are a bunch of slackers and can barely get to grid before the one minute................. Man, I crack myself up!!

.

Jeff that is because we were mostly all racing in that group in the hay day of ITA back when you and Joe and Greg and Andy and others had cut throat competition.

we slackers all learned that keeping away from the man drama made for better times. :D

[gran racing]

Im not getting to grid any earlier than I need too.

You're assuming we'll be inside the car waiting. And to clairify, I'm talking outside the grid next to the fence as the group before us is still on grid.

I do see how there are pros and cons to all of this.

[Abhi]

Not too worried buddy, the Kessler engine is coming along nicely!!! :D I figure the easiest way is just to paddock near you and when you start getting ready, I'll know it's time.

But yes, looking forward to the race season! I am glad it's still a bit off for me to get some funds together.

Dave... Could you come and get me when Lawton starts for the grid. Last year I missed most of qualifying at LRP because I was taking a nap and nobody woke me up to go qualify.

Thanks in advance

Abhi

[jimmy p]

WDCR MARRS event pre-grid for the first qual session each weekend is entirely up to the desires of the individual run group. the drivers reps in that group tell grid how they want to be set up at the beginning of the season. options used include, but are not limited to:

random (small bore)

random by class (this is how ITS/ITB does it. fast class in front)

fastest lap time of the season to date (big bore)

MARRS points to date (miata?)

no matter what group you are in, the lack of a pre-grid traffic jam is wonderful.

MARRS has used a reserved paddock area process for many years at summit point (I am the guy that does the reservation map). the amount of space a class gets is based on the average participation of the class in the previous years races. out-of-towners are welcome! as it says in the supps, just call the drivers rep of the group you are in a week or so before the race, tell them what you have for car/trailer and they will try to find you space either in the reserved area for their class or nearby if possible. we routinely "trade" space with adjacent classes as need be.

the goals of both grid and paddock space processes are to reduce stress and chaos on race weekends. more focus on FUN!


Marshall
ex-ITR, now ITS/STU

^ This is the way to go ^
WDCR / MARRS gets my vote for race weekend perfection on all fronts.