The Current State of Improved Touring [Archive] - Improved Touring Racing Forums

JeffYoung

01-13-2014, 11:34 AM

I am (slowly) working on the "declining entries" perception, which appears to be that. Since 2010, entries appear to have been slightly up across the country and up dramatically at some individual tracks.

The perception of "IT is dying" appears to be the result of three things:

1. Actual, real declining entries at some tracks, and in particular in the Atlanta Region and with the ARRC.

2. The vocal presence of Atlanta Region members on internet forums.

3. The switching of some competitors to STL.

Hope to get these numbers over to Ron sometime in the next week, but the gist of it seems to be this:

ITS and ITA remain the non-spec classes with the highest participation nationwide, after SRF and SM.

ITS participation in the SEDiv and NEDiv remains strong, and decent in the DC Region. Struggling elsewhere. ITA is strong in Florida and the NEDiv, and reasonably strong elsewhere primarily due to SM double dipping (with triple dipping in STL driving STL numbers).

IT participation took a hit after 2008, but so too did all club racing classes. IT has rebounded and, relative to other classes, retains its popularity despite STL, etc.

seckerich

01-13-2014, 11:56 AM

Saved me a post Jeff, I was just getting all those numbers together. IT is strong compared to most classes and many new cars are being built, old cars put in new owners hands, and many drivers getting enough money together to race again after some very tough years on the home front.

Common sense changes like the washer bottle and letting drivers fix a real wiring harness are good change, just keep the core items left alone.

We will lose some drivers in the next year or 2 with runoffs coming to Daytona, but it will level out.

JeffYoung

01-13-2014, 01:49 PM

Totally agree.

The numbers are very interesting. The area that has taken the biggest hit in terms of IT participation is Atlanta, by a LONG shot.

I think that, and the declining numbers at the ARRC, drive the perception that IT car counts are down. They aren't. Big, stable fields at Sebring and Daytona. Actually increasing at VIR and CMP. CMS up and down a bit. In our area, only Roebling is down some. Lime Rock steady. Pocono steady. NHIS steady. DC Region down some but the highs there were really high, and the numbers still strong.

I think the Atlanta folks are more visible and "louder" (I mean that in a good way), so declining entries at the ARRC is perceived as declining participation in IT when in fact that is not the case.

seckerich

01-13-2014, 02:38 PM

Atlanta IT has not recovered from the mass defection of drivers and shops to SM. Add to that the tender, forgiving nature of the walls at Road Atlanta and it is hard to see why. :rolleyes:

Xian

01-13-2014, 03:05 PM

Steve makes a great point about SM... any idea how much/many of the ITA entries are double dipped out of SM? I'm guessing that would be just about impossible to figure out barring a ton of extra entrant info and parsing.

JeffYoung

01-13-2014, 03:09 PM

For stuff on mylaps, I can't get it. FOr stuff at VIR and other places where I can get actual pdfs of results sheets, I can get car makes.

Even in ITS, SM double dipping helps fill the field. 3 double dipped SMs in last October's VIR ITS race with a 15 car field.

My guess is the numbers with ITA are similar or even more SMs.

But they are still IT entries and what I've found is that double dipped cars are usually guys trying IT because they are tired of something in SM and looking to come over.

Knestis

01-13-2014, 03:12 PM

A fair point about perceptions. I'm guilty of using the ARRC as a bellwether.

It's no question that ITA is benefiting from some SM crossover, just as STL does. Jeff's right that it's not possible to tell "spec" from entry lists but the ITNT results show A numbers profit from the presence of a lot of Miatae.

http://itnationaltour.com/images/downloads/2013itntpoints.pdf

K

EDIT - and +1 on the idea that those crossover SMs can honestly be counted as "IT cars." In some ways, I'll bet a lot of those cars are a throwback to the Old School, low-tech IT ideal that some folks really like.

Ron Earp

01-14-2014, 11:10 AM

Topic too important to let flounder on a washer bottle thread.

Perception is extremely important to the life of a category or series. If potential racers perceive a class to be waning then they're likely to seek other venues in which to participate.

I feel that ST is on the rise and believe other racers think the same. But to what extent is ST(L) actually waxing if non-ST cars are eliminated from the car count? Remove the RX cars and the ITA/SM Miatas, then perform a count of ST cars that remain. It'll be interesting to see how that shakes out.

I'll be interested to have a look at the participation numbers for IT once gathered up. Be happy to make graphs, perform statistical comparisons, and so on as needed.

ShelbyRacer

01-14-2014, 11:28 AM

I see that Jeff has some numbers and stats, but I anticipate some discussion on this on the next ITAC (Mon 1/27).

Shoot me a PM with real specifics of what you'd like to compare, and I'll see what info I can gather. The more specific, the better the chance of getting it. You can also ask JeffY, but I didn't want to volunteer him without offering myself.

almskidd

01-14-2014, 11:31 AM

http://www.scca.com/assets/2013_Regional_Participation_FINAL.pdf

This tells you a lot of the information you are looking for. After exporting it to excel and dividing each attendance number by the number of races in the division, you will start to see why IT looks like its on the decline when you just randomly arrive at a race. A lot of the races at Sebring and Daytona have between 10-15 ITB cars at each race, however the overall SEDIV average for ITB is 2.5 per race, that is 5th best in the division. So that tells me a huge number of the 74 SEDIV races goes unattended in ITB. Same is true about ITA and ITS but with a better overall attendance (average 6.7 and 6.3 per race). For reference SRF averages 7.4 and SM averages 20.2 per race.

ShelbyRacer

01-14-2014, 11:52 AM

And here is 2012-

http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/assets/2012_Regional_Participation_FINAL.pdf

I tried to get 2011 and earlier, but couldn't easily find it. I am interested to know car types as well, and that's not on those sheets...

TomL

01-14-2014, 12:49 PM

I have the car count numbers for SARRC all the way back to 1996. There has been an overall decline in IT numbers since the late 1990s, but that doesn't tell the whole story. The big drop took place in the 2003-5 time period, when SM appeared. All the classes took a hit then, dropping by maybe a quarter. Since that time, ITA and ITS have remained about stable, with ITA entries up a bit (probably due to double-dipping SMs.) ITB and IT7 have steadily declined to about half the entries from 2004. ITC has taken the worst hit, going down by over half until this year, when it dropped off to less than a third of what they were ten years earlier. ITR was introduced in 2007, but its numbers aren't enough to offset the drop of even one of those three classes.

So parts of IT aren't looking great, but overall IT is doing better than most classes. I think a majority of classes are down by 50% or so in the same time period. But the strength of the best attended classes (SM, SRF, ITS and ITA), plus the addition of new classes like ST have kept the overall numbers fairly stable in the last few years. There was about a 20% drop in entries in the couple years after 2007, but things have been fairly stable since then. And regardless of the ups and downs, four of the top six classes this year are still IT (A/S/B/7).

I suspect that part of the perception that IT numbers are down in SEDiv is driven by the fact that per race numbers are substantially down. The number of SARRC races has grown from 24-25 ten years ago to 36 this year. Total IT entries are down around 20%. but per race entries are down by nearly half. The issue of the number of SARRC races is a problem to me, but I know the people who actually have to put on races feel differently. And all classes have lower per race entries for the same reason, so it's not an IT-specific issue.

gran racing

01-14-2014, 01:53 PM

I agree there is a perception that IT is declining. I bought an ITA car last year and have questioned the decision as the fields that I've seen haven't been significant compared to the past. Hopefully I'm wrong. (Tracks I am talking about are primarly LRP and the Glen.)

I also fall into the ARRC trap. I mean the ITB attendance was pathetic.

Matt93SE

01-14-2014, 02:03 PM

In the last 4 years here in SW-Div, I have only seen one ITS car entered, and that's a guy that moved to Dallas from Sebring with an ITS Mustang build already underway. (FLATKITTY on here when he posts)

There's another ITS 240Z that's come out a couple times, but only because it was in ITS trim when it was purchased by the current owner and the current round of required maintenance is going to push it out of ITS-trim because OEM parts are becoming unavailable and there are cheaper & stronger go-fast parts available.

ITA and ITB have regular entries, but the vast majority of ITA are again the SM double-dippers. I think 2 or 3 cars are real ITA cars and the rest are SM.

8 or 10 years ago, IT was quite strong in the area, but they have essentially disappeared. It's not just the drivers moving to different classes, but drivers leaving SCCA altogether. I knew several of the ITS guys that raced here in the past and they had to sell/retire due to personal reasons (health, lack of money to race, etc), but they're still leaving.

Edit.. My first edit was intended to mention that we have a pretty significant SRF and SM following around here- each gets their own run group and we routinely have 30+ of each class at each national-level race. calling them a national-level since I don't know WTF they're calling them yet this year.

almskidd

01-14-2014, 02:03 PM

I suspect that part of the perception that IT numbers are down in SEDiv is driven by the fact that per race numbers are substantially down. The number of SARRC races has grown from 24-25 ten years ago to 36 this year. Total IT entries are down around 20%. but per race entries are down by nearly half. The issue of the number of SARRC races is a problem to me, but I know the people who actually have to put on races feel differently. And all classes have lower per race entries for the same reason, so it's not an IT-specific issue.

+1

In the SEDIV during 2013 for ITB there were 9 SARRC races out of 35, with only 1 racer, and 2 more with zero ITB entries, but 10 races with more than 4 and Sebring in Feb had 16 entries.

For ITA there are 10 SARRC races with 3 or less entries, however
ITS seems to be more evenly spread out.

jjjanos

01-14-2014, 02:51 PM

I think the Atlanta folks are more visible and "louder" (I mean that in a good way), so declining entries at the ARRC is perceived as declining participation in IT when in fact that is not the case.

Did the ARRC entries take a drop when the August event at Mid-O started?.....

Andy Bettencourt

01-14-2014, 02:51 PM

Where are the Atlanta entries going? All SM or all they declining as a whole?

Jeremy Billiel

01-14-2014, 03:24 PM

Ron Earp

01-14-2014, 04:14 PM

Here are the SCCA total country car counts from 2004, 2007 and 2008. I don't recall why national did not have car counts in 2005 and 2006

2004 2007 2008
ITR 0 1.06 1.35
ITS 9.78 6.01 5.84
ITA 9.66 9.98 8.53
ITB 7.07 5.05 3.88
ITC 4.51 2.30 2.02

Looking at the current entry counts I don't know how we can say that IT has not seen a meaningful decline in car counts. The question of why is what you are after!

What are those numbers, average cars per event for each year? If that is the average number of cars per event each year then it does not tell you the total number of entries per class.

ITS entries could remain constant from 2004 to 2008. And, if the number of sanctioned races increased as Tom pointed out, then the average cars per race would decrease which some would view as a decline of interest in the category. However that would be an improper conclusion.

The number of SARRC races has grown from 24-25 ten years ago to 36 this year.

quadzjr

01-14-2014, 04:29 PM

never been to the ARRC but there are some big name events close to the ARRC as well as halloween. I thought about doing the ARRC this year, but when I saw there was only one ITB car and it was a car that due to classing had no chance of beating it there.. I figured save my money and go run against bigger fields else where.

as for SARRC in general We have alot of tracks and alot of races.. I think that plays a role in total numbers.. I.E. not all races at sebring and Daytona have high counts. This last year a few of the sebring races and the last race at daytona before the SIC pulled less than 4 cars, atleast in ITB.

ShelbyRacer

01-14-2014, 04:43 PM

Ron,

It is entry in that class per event, averaged. Repeated cars are counted each time they enter.

In an ideal world where there are 25 ITB car averages, 10 events would total 250 entries, while 12 would total 300, even if it's the same 25 cars in each event. Now, if you're concerned that each of those 25 racers would only run 10 events a year for a total of 250 entries over 12 events, averaging 21 cars, I understand. However, I think many other factors have a greater effect, and unless we really item-analyze attendance patterns, I think the variances will null out enough to give us some kind of data to work conclusions from.

By other factors, ponder this-
There is a distinct decrease in ITS entries over the 04-08 time period. At the same time, ITR entries go up (since it wasn't even a class in 04). Is the ITS drop due to movement to ITR, due to the BMW guys getting pissed and leaving? How about economic factors? Gas prices? Bovine flatulence? In those same years, ITA goes up, then down, and ITB and ITC drop significantly. Spec Miata also is ramping up at the same time, the Great Realignment happened, the ECU rule changed, AND, the Colts won the Superbowl (contributed by a coworker looking over my shoulder- I have NO CLUE about football).

I'd just like to see the numbers we have at this point. I do agree with you Ron- I'd like to see raw numbers, not just averages. I just don't think we're going to be able to draw any real conclusions from them, given the number of variables involved.

Jeremy Billiel

01-14-2014, 04:45 PM

What are those numbers, average cars per event for each year? If that is the average number of cars per event each year then it does not tell you the total number of entries per class.

ITS entries could remain constant from 2004 to 2008. And, if the number of sanctioned races increased as Tom pointed out, then the average cars per race would decrease which some would view as a decline of interest in the category. However that would be an improper conclusion.

Ron - If you are gathering all the data PM me your email and I can send you the backup files that I have.

240zdave

01-14-2014, 04:50 PM

The question of why is what you are after!

Because big ass recession.

Jeremy Billiel

01-14-2014, 05:52 PM

Because big ass recession.

Peronally - I don't think its that simple of an answer. Even if you were able to somehow normalize for the recession I think the entries are down.

Again my opinion, but I think as National has pulled their heads out of their rear and are making Nationals easier to participate in, licenses getting moved to one, The Runoff changes, etc people are moving to National racing.

I also think that BIG money ruled IT in the mid 2000's. Those massive build costs put IT cars in the same ballpark as many National groups and people migrated.

Just my .02

Knestis

01-14-2014, 08:11 PM

... I feel that ST is on the rise and believe other racers think the same. But to what extent is ST(L) actually waxing if non-ST cars are eliminated from the car count? Remove the RX cars and the ITA/SM Miatas, then perform a count of ST cars that remain. It'll be interesting to see how that shakes out. ...

SM crossover ITA cars should be counted as IT entries, and SM/ITA crossover cars to STL should as well. This isn't about orthodoxy. It's about entries and whatever it takes to get them is probably fair game.

Note that I've changed my opinion on this in the past few months, mostly because I've shifted my focus to the less-prepared end of any grid as the growth opportunity, rather than the pointy end.

K

JeffYoung

01-14-2014, 09:06 PM

Tom Lyttle's post is an excellent one.

Look at one of his key points. IT entries have INCREASED 20% but the number of races has increased 50% in the SARRC. So the per race average is down but overall numbers up.

Talk about perception trumping reality.

Jeremy, I'm collecting the numbers. Send what you have to me if you could. THanks man.

TomL

01-14-2014, 09:26 PM

Better re-read that Jeff. Total IT numbers are DOWN by 20%. Things aren't as bad as perceived, but they aren't THAT good.

Ron Earp

01-14-2014, 09:28 PM

Again my opinion, but I think as National has pulled their heads out of their rear and are making Nationals easier to participate in, licenses getting moved to one, The Runoff changes, etc people are moving to National racing.

Send the numbers over to Jeff, I planned to look through what he collected.

National growing - perception? Or reality?

I posted earlier I felt ST was growing. But that might not be the case. Remove IT crossovers from the car counts; SM, ITA Miatas, RX7s, RX8s, and then what do you have?

And what Tom pointed to earlier with more SARRCs, but fewer average racers per race class, well, that's most likely a natural consequence if the number of racer entries remains the same or even increases slightly. There are a hell of a lot of races in the SEDiv.

Knestis

01-14-2014, 10:08 PM

Again, I just don't think it's legit to remove "crossover" cars from any class counts. Would we not count an old-school, unprepared, trunk-kit-and-a-bolt-in-cage NEON in ITA...?

K

Ron Earp

01-14-2014, 11:31 PM

Maybe we should if there were any of them around. But I'm willing to bet of we don't factor in the trunk kit Neons in ITA we won't induce much error in our measurement. Ain't a whole lot of crossover to IT SCCA, at least in practice.

On the other hand, should we count SM and ITA Miatas in STL because someone decided to take advantage of a National Weekend? Can't blame them for adding a race weekend, but those cars aren't exactly the norm for the <2L FWD class. And they will definitely induce a much larger statistical anomaly in STL national numbers when compared the "ITA trunk kit Neons" in regional ITA participation.

tom91ita

01-15-2014, 12:15 AM

Flyinglizard

01-15-2014, 12:38 AM

The SCCA racer numbers have not increased. The racers that we have, have moved to the Miata. Better car with better racing. The 1.6 cars can be bought for 6K and raced against similar cars. When you get done with it, it is still worth 6K. They eat very little at midpack levels.
The It class offer a lot fewer cars in class and more maintenance, while just a bigger hole to poor cash.
Any younger guys that rent or build cars are going SM.
The market has moved away from the old IT cars. ITB and C cars can be bought for sub 2K. Great value, fair racing. Many older cheaper IT cars have moved to prod or Chumpemons.

Z3_GoCar

01-15-2014, 01:25 AM

gran racing

01-15-2014, 09:11 AM

Miatas have hurt IT. I bought one since it was proven it can run at the front, it was something different for me (RWD), and parts can easily be found. For the record, I do not think it's an overdog by anymeans. I just think it's one of several good ITA choices.

What really made me to make the decision isn't just me, but the shop that I use have really focused on Miatas (Kessler Engineering). When I was doing my ITB Honda Prelude focus, he'd study the factory manual, need to figure out ways to improve it, we'd need to hunt for parts, and so forth. His shop focusing on Miata? Oh, those parts I needed when he inspected the car and I had an event the next day? No worries, got it. Development efforts? Now it will be used on many engines and cars; not just one random ITx car.

While I see shops still doing occassional other IT cars, it seems like Miata is the easy button. FlatOut, Advanced Autosports, Kessler, Savings Auto, OPM, and the list goes on.

What this also leads to, I think, is some people who like driving something everyone else isn't gravitating towards other categories. Or deciding to try the Koolaid and go into SM.

If I think about where the greatest competition is, the top drivers who also have strong funding to run at the front, it's SM.

OUBob

01-15-2014, 12:31 PM

A ton of ITC cars came to the Central Ohio area and call M-O home. A bunch more are sitting in barns cuz someone didn't feel like rebuilding a blown Pinto/Fiesta/pick any other crapbox engine. If someone finds me an 83-87 Crx/Civic caged shell w/logbook, there will be one more.

Ed Funk

01-15-2014, 12:59 PM

jumbojimbo

01-15-2014, 02:11 PM

OUBob

01-15-2014, 02:22 PM

Ed, Jim, maybe you should send me details of your chassis. This isn't gonna be a project I have done in 3 months, but it would be nice to have a place to store parts...

Matt93SE

01-15-2014, 04:05 PM

Miatas have hurt IT.

BUT.. Did they hurt IT as a cost of helping the club as a whole? Gotta think about all of the contingency Mazda pays and the number of these little cars running around.
It's a small, light, agile, reliable car. Perfect for cheap racing. They run in T, IT, ST, GT, and Prod.

Don't shoot the messenger, but what was bad for one class of 25 yr old cars certainly has helped the club as a whole. Times change and the car-to-have changes with it.

gran racing

01-15-2014, 05:00 PM

I really do think it's helped the Club as a whole.

StephenB

01-15-2014, 05:23 PM

And it helped all of us keep our entry fees down!! :-)

Wreckerboy

01-15-2014, 09:44 PM

Miatas haven't been bad for IT, IT has been bad for IT.

Think about where the Miata started life - as a SSB/SSC car that was aging out of the category. Suddenly all of these race cars are looking for homes. At that time (early to mid 90s) the 1.6 was NOT competitive in ITA. People were looking for places to race the car and *presto*, Spec Miata came to be. Originally it was as a subset within IT. The class used to be the home of "affordable racing." Notwithstanding the farce that statement is, SM took off in large part because it was a low barrier to entry class. Easy button racing, if you will. One suspension package, one reasonably durable tire, wrapped in a fairly inexpensive and somewhat bulletproof package. Not a lot of R&D required - the legwork had been done for you. The fact that it was a semi-common car, and something that the casual person could could relate to didn't hurt it none.

So how did IT hurt itself? IT is a hugely competitive class. Several here have top flight builds and driving skills to match. When the Miata thing was starting to gather speed is about when the really big, high quality builds took off in IT. As a competitor who was returning to W2W in that timeframe I took a look at IT and rapidly realized that it was beyond my skill set to build a reasonable car. I'm not an engineer, I don't have the time or inclination to develop a competitive package from the ground up. I just want to race (that whole barrier to entry thing). I also looked and saw that many of the cars racing in IT at that were already getting older and parts were less common (note: previously I owned a ITA RX7, so digging up parts for old cars was something I was familiar with). Contrast that with a Miata, and the easy button nature of a competitive build, and it was a no brainer for me.

Yes, a front running SM car on the level of a Steyn, Drago, or Landy build will go dollar for dollar with anything IT can offer. It ain't cheap. But for comparatively minimal investment I can buy or build a Miata and have a good time racing really hard for 17th place in a field of 30 cars. Many of the SM crowd watch the IT guys and think "what a huge amount of work goes into prepping that 1975 Borgward*. Parts can't be easy to find for that old crock, and look at those 8 car fields. Sorry, got to go get in the traffic jam on grid and race now."

IT's own success hurt it. Do I work hard to get on track, or do I press the easy button?

* besides, we all know that the ITAC and the CRB hate the Borgward :)

Jeremy Billiel

01-15-2014, 10:16 PM

rob- I agree with you. I think mega dollar builds during the great realignment which triggered thoughts of being uncompetitive after weight adjustments pushed people to other classes. The ITS BMW mess didn't help either...

RSTPerformance

01-16-2014, 12:10 AM

IMO SCCA making all these new classes to "attract" other racers has hurt the class and possibly the long term success of the club... This includes the three Miata classes, the SP classes and the ST classes, not to mention all the other classes I am missing because honestly I would bet a drink 99% of our members could never list off every class that exists in their reguon of SCCA.

It was simple in the 90's... SS, IT, Prod, GT. a few side classes like SM and some catch sll classes (when I was a kid I think I called it lebra) are good but add in all the rest and it gets way to complicated. Right now we are in transition I think and there isn't much direction or focus, give it 5 or do more years and lets see where the demand shifts!

Raymond

Wreckerboy

01-16-2014, 08:47 AM

Raymond, you are right. There are about eleventy seven classes right now, each with it's own requirements. Using the Evile Miata as an example, there are at least three four five a whole buttload of classes mine fits in on any given weekend - SSM, SM, ITA, FP, and STL. To a casual observer/enthusiast trying to figure out the differences between what they are watching is difficult. "Mom, why has that Miata got all those letters written on it?"

The SCCA model is a rules driven classing one. The NASA (and before it, to a lesser degree, EMRA), is a car driven one. Essentially it is "Show us what you've got and we'll find a place for it." This is a wonderful way of lowering an entry barrier. Face it, today's new entrant builds a car first and asks questions later. They've often got their HPDE monster and have done lapping days and now they wanna race. Right now. The SCCA says "Sure, just change x, and y, and z and then come play."

Both sides have their strengths and weaknesses, and I am not saying that one is better or worse than the other for the committed racer. But for the causal fan, the fresh blood, the classing thing is one part of the problem that the SCCA faces.

pukka

01-16-2014, 01:49 PM

With online registrations like motorsportsreg you might want to consider adding a field for log book number.

With that info you would see that although I raced in three classes this year, ITB, ITA & STL, there were only two cars involved.

We (MotorsportReg.com) do have this field as part of the vehicle profile and it can be optionally required by the event organizer (just FYI). We have other ways of distilling out participation numbers if that's the goal.

Flyinglizard

01-16-2014, 02:04 PM

The Miata is the Sprite of 1963. Times change.

ShelbyRacer

01-16-2014, 03:48 PM

The Miata is the Sprite of 1963. Times change.

Interesting comparison.

That said, I still giggle when people walk up to one of our local hillclimbers that has a beautiful Lotus Elan (yes, he actively runs hillclimbs with it) and say, "Wow, that's the weirdest looking Miata I've ever seen!" or something like that.

From an SCCA participation standpoint though, I see the Sprite parallel somewhat.

DavidM

01-16-2014, 03:59 PM

Numbers can be twisted lots of ways so make sure whatever analysis is done is done as objectively as possible. I think you count crossover cars. An entry is an entry and if they're on track in my class then it doesn't really matter when I'm racing them if they also have SM on the side. I also think the target for new entries is midfield like Kirk said. There's been several mentions in this thread of the cost of a top build IT car. WE (those of us in IT) know that it's possible to build a midfield IT car fairly cheaply, but perception outside the class is that you need to invest lots of $$$ to be competitive.

The Miata has been good for car counts overall, but has hurt IT classes. People look at SM and see that they can get a decent car relatively cheap and have lots of other people to race. That used to be IT. I think a lot of people that might have ended up in IT in the past now go into SM. The saving grace for ITA is that several of those people double dip. ITS and ITR offer a higher performance than SM so I think you have people still in those classes because they want a faster car.

I'm not sure there's a solution. I think IT needs new cars classed so that it's not just a class of 20 year old cars, but classing new cars is difficult and many times new cars don't fit in existing IT classes. Attracting folks doing LeChump is a tough sell money wise, but there are some things that could be done to make IT more attractive to them. IT needs better marketing, but even with that the other classes available can still look better.

David

Andy Bettencourt

01-16-2014, 06:09 PM

IT got popular. The money came. It scared away the 'simple' times from the early days.

It's ok. ITB and ITC are still there for ya'll.

Spa67

01-16-2014, 06:53 PM

If there is a problem with IT numbers it's just a symptom of a bigger problem.

When you're going after a niche market like weirdos that want to race old cars and turn their own wrenches to keep it affordable you have to be VERY targeted. We do a horrible job marketing club racing to the best targets- Auto-x racers, track day participants, car show folks, smaller marque clubs, car salesmen, dealership owners, mechanics and others.

I tried to just get a free PDX for the owner of the local Hyundai dealership, who also is the Chair of the DC auto show and the idea died in committee.

Racing is addictive, we all know that. Pushers get people to become addicts by giving free tastes.

Tom Blaney

01-16-2014, 06:57 PM

Ok I'll chime in here just to start a fire

One of the things that I find interesting (now compared to the "earier days" is that frankly sitting on the hillside to watch some of the races is flat out boring, and it's is easy to hear "oh I don't know who won, I guess one of those Mazda's"
Granted it's good to see ITA with 10-12 entries, but if they are all identical except for color, who is going to care.

When there are spectators(more than 10)watching a race, it might be possible that one of them (or their child) might say "wow that was interesting, I might give that a try".

Or on the other hand, if all of the cars are the same marque and they are all store bought standard versions, what happens to the weekender who is pretty handy with a wrench and would enjoy building a car, Like a Nissan or Honda (you know something besides a Miata) but if the field is filled with one standard model (some who are cheating their ass's off), why should they come to SCCA, pay bigger entry fees, and have no spectators because all of the young ones got bored with "Spec Racing" and went to see "drifters" and the old ones just gave up because it is just boring to watch.

Andy Bettencourt

01-16-2014, 08:15 PM

webhound

01-16-2014, 08:33 PM

Make it easy, make it fun.

This year's ARRC was my first SCCA race. It was indeed easy and fun. Easy reg, easy test day, easy tech, easy parking, easy for me and a friend to double dip and share lodging and towing expenses. Also, good company and a reasonable entry fee. All these are positives, the ARRC is a great event, would do again.

Now, for the two of us to do our first race next year, we need a waiver to compete because we DNF the enduro, so each only have one race result. Why? It'll be easy for us, but for folks that don't have a good in-region line of communication with a licensing stew, this is a pain. What if I want to do one Chump, a couple ice races, and the ARRC every year? Why do I have to apply for a waiver from SCCA? The other clubs don't do this.

Full circle, what's "wrong" with IT, or what could make it better, is to grease the skids within the SCCA to make it easier and/or more fun. For me, more fun would be more codriver double dip opportunities, more reasonable enduros more often on the schedule. And yes, providing some sort of entry prep level class helps too. Although I wasn't too sad to be a few seconds off the front ITA pace at the ARRC in my $3k crap box. In a bigger field I would have had someone to race with.

Sorry if this is disjointed, iPhone posting owns me. Bottom line, what we have going against us are cheaper and easier alternatives. And some of that is perception.

Will

MMiskoe

01-16-2014, 10:35 PM

This years NARRC Runoffs in ITA was really light with only 7 finishers but there were 4 different kinds of car.

ITR had 9 entries with 5 different kinds of car
ITS had 10 entries with 7 different kinds of car
ITB had 13 entries with 6 different kinds of car

We have diversity here in the Northeast. But Andy, don't take this the wrong way, you're right NE has more diversity than some, but we used to have more.

Dig back in some of the results sheets you have from when you started W2W w/ SCCA. How many IT cars in a regoinal? How many types? In NER ITS and ITB run together and I can remember 35+ car fields for that race, 20+ were ITS cars. And I can remember sitting on the grid and seeing at least 5 different models of ITS cars - RX7, BMW, Nissan, Porsche, Datsun. The ITB fields also had the same diversity - Opel, VW, Audi, Volvo, Saab. And that's what my addled brain can remember.

Sadly, this summer I saw a regional race at the same track where ITS didn't run, it was at the end of the day and with so few cars, those who did enter moved to STL/STU/STO/ITE.

Chip42

01-17-2014, 12:03 AM

IT got popular. The money came. It scared away the 'simple' times from the early days.

It's ok. ITB and ITC are still there for ya'll.

Bzzzzzzzzzzt. not one of our top 5.

ITC might well be affordable, there's no arms race, but ITB is not a place you skimp and do well in. I'm sure it's cheaper than an SN95 V6 mustang or Triumph in S, but look at pablo II, the martin and herbert Brimtek cars, Ulrik's MR2, underwood/strickland civic, etc... $20k + all day long.

and WE foisted this on ourselves. first by not nipping pro level builds when they were novel and it could be done, then by institution of the "build it 10/10ths and come back to me" approach to reclassification. we allowed a hypercompetative environment to develop, then expected everyone to commit to that level or deal with the result of not doing so. yeah - we all know WHY that was done, but the conversations I have with people who are knowledgeable about IT but choose not to run it suggest that they largely do so because of the "pro" level "requirements" as they see them. guys looking to get into ITS might not have a problem with this - fast cars and all that - but the prep level spread to A and B too, and I think the cost of entry to run NEAR the front (or just to keep up in a straight line) is a HUGE barrier to many. old cars, slow cars, etc.. doesn't help attract the kids, but I think the former is worse than the latter. chump car took what made IT popular back in the 90s and ran with it, adjusted to the modern day and with some spin of their own. but at the core it was ease and cost reductions. yes, once something gets popular the will to win will kill the fun and the low-cost reality every time. on that, we agree. might have coulda done something about it way back when but... SCCA needs an entry level class where people aren't scared off by the cost and "difficulty", and right now, IT ain't it. great class with some really good racing and you CAN get in cheap, but you'll be pretty far back in any decently subscribed race

SM is easy. as has been said ad nauseum. and the PERCEPTION is that the ease translates into accessibility. we all know the reality but it's not really relevant. spread the development load around and the cost to get "pretty good" equipment drops like a rock.

the club isn't in trouble, we just moved up market and no one told us. we got ~300 cars for the majors at sebring at >$600 each. THAT, apparently, is your market. we have met the enemy, and they is us.

JeffYoung

01-17-2014, 12:37 AM

Chip makes good points but I still think a lot of that is perception.

I went racing in 2003, right in the middle of the Bimmerworld/Speedsource madness. I was SLOW out of the box, but I did get on track for $7k in prep costs in the car, which were cage, fuel cell, shocks all around, seat, safety stuff, wheels and limited slip (Quaife).

By 2004 without any development other than driver, I was midpack.

By 2007 I had maxed out carb development on the carb motor and was finishing on podiums and occasionally leading races.

I then spent two years developing the FI motor and started to get real competitive in 2010, leading races. 2011, I finally started to win and won a championship.

Point? Yea, I have probably in excess of $70k in the car, BUT it is spread over ten years, and probably $30-40k of it was "put it in and rip it" development shit, and half that was the goddamn motherfucking Haltech. Sorry. Still gives me shivers.

BAck to the point. Even in ITS, you can build or buy a decent car for $6-10k and run mid pack or even close to the front if you buy a good one. Heck, I'd be lucky to get $10k for my car, and I know top flight RX7s that have sold for $8k.

So I don't buy the idea that the development costs on my car or the Earpstangs are the barrier to entry. I think it is the PERCEPTION that you have to go the route I've gone, or Ron and Jeff have gone, or STeve and Chip have gone.

You don't. And you can still run competitively in ITS if you look around and buy wisely.

Andy Bettencourt

01-17-2014, 08:56 AM

But Andy, don't take this the wrong way, you're right NE has more diversity than some, but we used to have more.

Dig back in some of the results sheets you have from when you started W2W w/ SCCA. How many IT cars in a regoinal? How many types? In NER ITS and ITB run together and I can remember 35+ car fields for that race, 20+ were ITS cars. And I can remember sitting on the grid and seeing at least 5 different models of ITS cars - RX7, BMW, Nissan, Porsche, Datsun. The ITB fields also had the same diversity - Opel, VW, Audi, Volvo, Saab. And that's what my addled brain can remember.

Sadly, this summer I saw a regional race at the same track where ITS didn't run, it was at the end of the day and with so few cars, those who did enter moved to STL/STU/STO/ITE.

While you are right about the size and diversity, I would hardly call out the 'Miata in IT' as the culprit. I call out the economy and the level of prep at the pointy end due to popularity.

Now if we want to argue that the Miata in SM is the issue, then fine. People like spec classes. They are the most popular in all of SCCA.

Andy Bettencourt

01-17-2014, 09:01 AM

... yes, once something gets popular the will to win will kill the fun and the low-cost reality every time. on that, we agree.

As long as we agree here.

You can not legislate cost unless you do so via Chump or Lemons. And if that is your ticket, so be it.

gran racing

01-17-2014, 09:05 AM

Holy crap Jeff!!

Granted it's good to see ITA with 10-12 entries, but if they are all identical except for color, who is going to care.
The most fun races to watch are SM; by far.
But it's always been the fact SCCA spectators are family and friends of drivers. tGA has a good saying that SCCA is where the fans don't know the drivers; the drivers know the fans (or something like that).

And you can still run competitively in ITS if you look around and buy wisely.
Now more than ever. My ITB car sold for under $8k and while there was still development to be had, it was pretty darn good and could run with any other ITB car. Lots of good options out there for modest dollars. Heck, what did Tristian get for his B car?

Wreckerboy

01-17-2014, 09:34 AM

Jeff, perhaps you are too close to the situation to realize the inherent contradictions in much of what you are saying. You "think it is the PERCEPTION that you have to go the route (that I and others have gone)." Your caps, not mine. Remember, perception trumps reality. Each. And. Every. Time. See also: Spec Miata as low cost, affordable racing.

You say that you spent "probably in excess of $70k in the car" and that "probably $30-40k of it was "put it in and rip it (out) development shit." I remember how long you suffered to get a brake package that lasted longer than pulling the car off the trailer. That is exactly what scares people off about IT. It is not hard for anybody, not just British ox cart drivers, to spend that kind of money building a competitive jalopy. Just going on what AB has posted in this forum concerning the build of his ITA Miata - the endless dyno sessions for exhaust development, the time spent getting his engine management right, and on and on, he could easily be into it for that much. It's not just the money - look at tJU's Honda. He did some insane amount of that work with his own hands and built a world beater. "His skills," as was said elsewhere, "make the rest of us look like hacks." Or the Earpstangs, which are marvels of development. All that money, and perhaps more importantly, all that time, and what do you have, the most perfectly assembled Hondawagenstang ever assembled? Right, so Joey Flatbrim can spend a lot less, buy some pimpin' brakes and exhaust for his Hondawagenstang (which we all know attracts teh honeyz) and go have fun.

And how about the time? You've been racing the TR-8 for 10 seasons now, and it took five seasons to get to the point where you were "finishing on podiums and occasionally leading races." In today's instant gratification society, five years is an eternity.

You know now, hell we all know, that you buy a built car for $peanuts on the development dollar. But most people new to the sport DON'T know that, and many are attracted to track events because they already have a car that they've tossed a few bits and pieces at and now they want to race it. But wait, there are all these RULES. And in Improved Touring all those rules mean that Joey has got to take off his already purchased go fast bits to make some OE piece of carp work. Gone are those pimpy brakes, the fancy suspension parts, et. al. Add back in the time to make that stuff work. Not everybody is up to, or even wants to take on that challenge. "I just wanna race!"

Please don't get me wrong - I love Improved Touring, I respect the hell out of the effort that is put into some of the top flight builds I've seen. If I ever have the ability to properly develop a car (or if I start running out of Miata fenders), I'd come back to the category quicker than I would go to STL or something like that - it trips my triggers. But that's an anomaly, not the norm. I look around a WDCR paddock and where do I see the youngest drivers? SSM. Why? Ease of access.

Chip makes good points but I still think a lot of that is perception.

I went racing in 2003, right in the middle of the Bimmerworld/Speedsource madness. I was SLOW out of the box, but I did get on track for $7k in prep costs in the car, which were cage, fuel cell, shocks all around, seat, safety stuff, wheels and limited slip (Quaife).

By 2004 without any development other than driver, I was midpack.

By 2007 I had maxed out carb development on the carb motor and was finishing on podiums and occasionally leading races.

I then spent two years developing the FI motor and started to get real competitive in 2010, leading races. 2011, I finally started to win and won a championship.

Point? Yea, I have probably in excess of $70k in the car, BUT it is spread over ten years, and probably $30-40k of it was "put it in and rip it" development shit, and half that was the goddamn motherfucking Haltech. Sorry. Still gives me shivers.

BAck to the point. Even in ITS, you can build or buy a decent car for $6-10k and run mid pack or even close to the front if you buy a good one. Heck, I'd be lucky to get $10k for my car, and I know top flight RX7s that have sold for $8k.

So I don't buy the idea that the development costs on my car or the Earpstangs are the barrier to entry. I think it is the PERCEPTION that you have to go the route I've gone, or Ron and Jeff have gone, or STeve and Chip have gone.

You don't. And you can still run competitively in ITS if you look around and buy wisely.

Jeremy Billiel

01-17-2014, 10:08 AM

Racing takes insane amounts of money. We know that...The development requirements to win is HUGE. tGA has also said numbers like $60k in development in his NX2000. Newbies only *think* they want to race. "Just get me out there". Then after they are no longer green, they go Holy shit... Look at Ulfelders S2000, Andy's Miata, Greg's NX2000, Jeff Youngs Triumpth, Anthony Serra's Integra (remember when he sold that car for like 30k and we all gasped?), The bimmerworld/speedsource cars.

I would also point out the pits. When was the last time you saw some minivan pulling a tiny trailer with the race car on it. NOW we have 60-70k in trucks, trailers, etc alone before the car is even purchased.

The runoffs I hear are even worse. Toters only... Very few open trailers, etc

Bottom line is SCCA's attraction is big dollar builds with like minded people who have lots of money who want top of the line safety and organizational rules, etc. SCCA needs to understand that as America has gotten more wealthly everything else moves up with it.

JeffYoung

01-17-2014, 10:20 AM

Rob, absolutely perception becomes reality....no question, and it has happened in IT for sure.

But that's exactly what I'm trying to show is wrong in that post. You don't HAVE to do what I did or Ron did or Greg A did or Andy did to get to the front.

Right now, you can buy a top flight ITS car and race at the front in very competitive multi marque racing in the SEDiv. For WAY less than it would take to run up front in an SM in regional SEDiv racing, much less "old" national.

So we agree on all points except one: it's entirely possible to run up front in IT for the same or less money than SM. It's just that a lot of folks -- as you correctly point out - don't see that to be the case or want to spend the time to find out that what I am saying is true.

I will also say with all that time an dmoney spent on the car, the best investment and the biggest leaps in performance came from seat time, and with that SM does have a huge advantage over IT. SMs can double dip, they are reliable and folks get a lot of track time out of them.

Tom Blaney

01-17-2014, 10:24 AM

webhound

01-17-2014, 10:24 AM

Bottom line is SCCA's attraction is big dollar builds with like minded people who have lots of money who want top of the line safety and organizational rules, etc. SCCA needs to understand that as America has gotten more wealthly everything else moves up with it.

Huh? Is this true? And more importantly, is it good?

When I came out to watch club races as an early teen, I swear there were normal working people there, like the plumbers and painters, with their work vans or family wagons towing open rinky dinks with ITB cars on them. A lot of cars were still being driven to the track. It actually did look accessible.

Now I hear from a certain subset that racing is expensive and that they see no reason whatsoever to cater to a lower demographic. If this is seriously the mindset, you will continue to see diminishing fields. Looking at it any other way is delusional. The really really rich guys will either have their Stradale toted to the challenge races, or will continue to go to the private club tracks. The poorer demo will get priced out of the SCCA model and continue to go elsewhere. The people somewhere in the middle, which is a diminishing demo, will have one-man self congratulatory podium celebrations.

It's a club and there is a lot of validity that it should be what the members want. I'd just hate to see it wither because things aren't being looked at realistically.

Will

Andy Bettencourt

01-17-2014, 10:35 AM

Back in the "good old days" of the 80's to late 90's the hillside at Lime Rock would have quite a few spectators. Both at larger club organized regional, and most nationals. At the Narrc'off's there would be a big crowd.

So there use to be quite a few events where you would get all puffed up after a race because there were spectators. But personally once the club brought in "Spec whatever" the idea of cheering for a particular marque faded and so did the excitement.

Now if you look in the pits, there are not as many wives that even come to the events anymore. I think this is still an issue, both for the track that is hoping for some gate money, and the drivers who want to be acknowledged (first or last) by the crowd for putting out a good effort.

Times are-a-changin' Tom. Did you know that the percentage of kids who get their license in the first month they are eligible is down 50% from just 15 years ago? Why? I submit it's because they don't need a car to be 'free' of their parents and 'see' their friends. They text, facetime and they meet up in on-line gaming areas. They don;t need a car to gain that freedom.

My point is that there is way to much going on now that limits the 'track' as a viable entertainment choice. Too much distraction, too much need for instant gratification.

It's not about the cars. It's about the culture.

JeffYoung

01-17-2014, 10:41 AM

Andy speaks truth. Ron and I were talking about this a while back. Not many kids work on cars, or are interested in cars any more. Weird. We were obsessed with them back in high school.

Andy Bettencourt

01-17-2014, 10:44 AM

Now I hear from a certain subset that racing is expensive and that they see no reason whatsoever to cater to a lower demographic.

Will

Did someone really write that or are you just reading into it? The IT rule-set has, at it's core, been similar to itself for decades. Other than coil-overs and ECU's, it doesn't cost any more to build a 10/10th's car now than it did then. The difference is popularity and desire. When I started on my Miata I saw the Serra Integra and the Amy NX2000 as targets. I poured the blood, sweat and bucks into the goal to be the top dog. Same rules, more commitment (- edit: not than Anthony or Greg, than the 'good ole days)

Nothing against the 'plumber' who loaded his RX-3 onto a home-built wooden trailer in 1983 running on a shoestring. The racing was just as good then as it ever was. But until someone wants to take it to the limit of the rules, it's all an illusion of affordability.

IMHO the only thing you can do is what LeMons does and that is institute a claimer clause (or destruction IIRC).

Jeremy Billiel

01-17-2014, 10:57 AM

From first hand experience I can say I *was* the demographic SCCA wanted. I started off with autox, went to HPDE and was racing in my early 20's (in my car that I owned prior). I "raced" for 5 years and struggled to ever even think about getting close to the podium becasue I did not have the funds to test and get the seat time required. Marriage and 2 kids later I am out of racing as the priorities change. I will be back, but as a 40+ year old with MONEY. When I come back I am going to do it right and be 100% in. There is nothing worse than half-assing it.

Now in todays terms, kids don't get there licenses until 20, they aren't interested in cars. They get married, kids, etc and that entire under 30 group is now missing from the club to back fill those who leave.

What is the average SCCA racers age? I bet its north of 40. Why is that? They have MONEY.

RACING IS ALL ABOUT THE MONEY. I am sorry, but "cheap" builds don't exist if you want to win. My personality is not one to just do it "for fun".

IT is feeling these pressures, frankly just as the rest of the club is.

Andy Bettencourt

01-17-2014, 11:11 AM

But you can buy a car that can win in very popular classes like ITS, ITA, ITB and ITC for under $10K.

Some of the illusion of the pointy end is that it's 100% car. It's not. It costs money to develop the driver. It costs money to maintain the car so it stays on the track every week without failure. It costs money to have tires with the fastest amount of heat cycles left in them to fight for those last few tenths.

The money isn't always in the car before it gets on track. It's after it gets on track.

gran racing

01-17-2014, 11:19 AM

Sorry Jeremy, but you just didn't have the drive and commitment to make it happen. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. People can get really cheap track time by instructing at HPDEs. It doesn't take a ton either; just use the time wisely.

The high end builds get a lot of attention, which is expected.

Just going on what AB has posted in this forum concerning the build of his ITA Miata
But that's far from the norm. Andy and the company he's involved in (FlatOut) did an amazing job. He also drove hit butt off. But how much competition did he really have? Not all that much.

You don't HAVE to do what I did or Ron did or Greg A did or Andy did to get to the front.
Absolutely agree. One of the aspects that I like about IT is the diminishing returns. One could take $15k and do a very good ITB build and run at the front. Yes, they’d need to do some [i]basic items[i] themselves and choose where the money is best spent. I’d say about the same for ITA.
There sure are a lot of enclosed trailers out there in paddocks. Keep in mind other factors though. Many families now have SUVs beyond just for racing needs, which are capable of towing an enclosed. Then the trailers just aren’t that crazy expensive - $3k - $4k used. Seeing all of them does change outsiders perspectives though.

gran racing

01-17-2014, 11:27 AM

and that they see no reason whatsoever to cater to a lower demographic

Fortunately that's not the case. As some know, I've spent a lot of time (and money) trying to make information available on how to get into the sport on a modest budget. SCCA has been very supportive of this, which shows they feel it's important.

Tom Blaney

01-17-2014, 11:40 AM

I understand and (being in the computer industry) are well aware that the kids can program a cell phone quickly and are not signing up for "shop class"
However watching the tube, we see quite a few kids will attend a "drifting" event (with their girlfriends and buddies) or will modify their cars to look or act like one.

Why, because "drifting" is more exciting than going to Lime Rock, and watching 7 ITA cars fight for a NARRC title.

Jeremy Billiel

01-17-2014, 11:49 AM

Sorry Jeremy, but you just didn't have the drive and commitment to make it happen. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. People can get really cheap track time by instructing at HPDEs. It doesn't take a ton either; just use the time wisely.

Agreed - 1000%. No insult taken. But why? It's all about the coin. I didn't have it and refused to spend money I did not have. As Andy said, its not just the car. More than anything its the seat time, the test days, new tires, etc... The car is the cheap part!

Jeremy Billiel

01-17-2014, 11:50 AM

webhound

01-17-2014, 11:55 AM

Fortunately that's not the case. As some know, I've spent a lot of time (and money) trying to make information available on how to get into the sport on a modest budget. SCCA has been very supportive of this, which shows they feel it's important.

I know the SCCA as an org supports this, seeing the drive toward ITEZ. Some members don't like it though.

Did someone really write that or are you just reading into it? The IT rule-set has, at it's core, been similar to itself for decades. Other than coil-overs and ECU's, it doesn't cost any more to build a 10/10th's car now than it did then. The difference is popularity and desire. When I started on my Miata I saw the Serra Integra and the Amy NX2000 as targets. I poured the blood, sweat and bucks into the goal to be the top dog. Same rules, more commitment (- edit: not than Anthony or Greg, than the 'good ole days)

Nothing against the 'plumber' who loaded his RX-3 onto a home-built wooden trailer in 1983 running on a shoestring. The racing was just as good then as it ever was. But until someone wants to take it to the limit of the rules, it's all an illusion of affordability.

IMHO the only thing you can do is what LeMons does and that is institute a claimer clause (or destruction IIRC).

I read into Jeremy's statement that I quoted above as saying that SCCA should cater to the higher $ demo. AND, I had a friend say this specific thing in reference to some posts I made that were supportive of ITEZ, it was along the lines of being indicative of a dumbing down of the class or club or something. He's on here at times, still a friend, I respect his viewpoint. I also like that he'd come out and express his viewpoints, as do I. I don't have to agree with a friend.

I also respect what you guys have done with the top prep cars, and don't mean to diminish that in any way. Put very very simply, I feel that the time is ripe to have a lower prep class to cater to a demographic that has shown it will come out. Props for Dick and NER, and Terry with the JRB for doing it. I hope it works out.

One more thing, quickly. I believe the connection is being made between SM not being cheap even though it's low prep/spec, and that not working out for IT. I would beg to differ on this, as it's tantamount to throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Being spec, the smallest gains in HP, grip and weight dist will help differentiate a tight SM field. In a multi marque environment like IT, IMO the gains will be more incremental on track vis tiny fractional gains in prep. So again, IMO, if you cap things like stock r&p and diff, no adj and/or claimer shocks, no ecu work, and gasp street tires, and whatever else, I think the field will necessarily tighten up. Yes, the guy with the KY treated cryo gears, binned balance, shaved and goat peed tires, and blueprinted Monros will still differentiate, he will be within a much smaller delta than what we have now. Further, just because that stuff can still be done, doesn't obviate the good of tightening the prep level a little.

PS, not trying to advocate changing you guys' IT. Something within the ITEZ framework is more my idea.

Xian

01-17-2014, 12:06 PM

Did someone really write that or are you just reading into it? The IT rule-set has, at it's core, been similar to itself for decades. Other than coil-overs and ECU's, it doesn't cost any more to build a 10/10th's car now than it did then. The difference is popularity and desire. When I started on my Miata I saw the Serra Integra and the Amy NX2000 as targets. I poured the blood, sweat and bucks into the goal to be the top dog. Same rules, more commitment (- edit: not than Anthony or Greg, than the 'good ole days)

Similar rules but there's more cost that goes into the development than there used to be. The majority of that is trickle-down technology from pro level racing. Pipemax & Burns + a ton of dyno time for your header/exhaust, more dyno time for the intake design, more dyno time for the ECU, etc. Add onto that the additional safety requirements (H&N, belts aging out, halo race seat, right side net). Add on additional budget for modern short lifecycle tires. Toss in an extra dose of shock valving development then put it all together and it seems to me that there's way more cost/complexity that goes into a current build than would have been seen 25 years ago.

Nothing against the 'plumber' who loaded his RX-3 onto a home-built wooden trailer in 1983 running on a shoestring. The racing was just as good then as it ever was. But until someone wants to take it to the limit of the rules, it's all an illusion of affordability.

IMHO the only thing you can do is what LeMons does and that is institute a claimer clause (or destruction IIRC).

Having been to a couple LeMons races, they don't have a claimer clause or destruction clause. When LeMons first started they destroyed some cars (people's curse) but that went away ages ago as they morphed from a slow carnival/parade style event to legit amateur endure racing.

PS
I've wondered whether IT has also been hurt by the SCCA's efforts not to let cars age out of SS/Touring as quickly as they used to. By allowing these cars to continue running their existing, national class it's dried up some of the "cheap, used racecar" population that would have otherwise been picked up for pennies on the dollar and converted into an IT entry.

gran racing

01-17-2014, 12:24 PM

But why? It's all about the coin.

No doubt money make the process much, MUCH easier. Yet getting out there and doing pretty darn well is quite possible on a modest budget. I also recognize there's a difference between that and winning.

Dave in your honest assessment how successful has that been?

It’s been very interesting and eye opening. Regardless of what I or SCCA national does, most regions still have no clue it exists. When approached, it’s a major process for them to consider embracing it, then even more so to have added to a regions website as a resource for people. I couldn’t even get my own region (NER) to do anything with it. I learned that time and energy spent with the regions could be used in much better ways. In that sense it’s been disappointing; certainly wasn’t expected by myself or SCCA National.

On the flip side though, it’s far exceeded what I initially hoped for in terms of visitors and success stories from people. That mentor program I started and ran for about a year? I had to stop it because it was too popular for me to manage without an automated system. Had a few hundred people register for it.

Of course I’ll never be satisfied and wish I had more money to invest into the site, marketing, and so forth. Haven’t figured out how to make it happen, but there’s a lot of potential for it to be much more effective and valuable with added cash.

matt batson

01-17-2014, 12:43 PM

Agreed - 1000%. No insult taken. But why? It's all about the coin. I didn't have it and refused to spend money I did not have. As Andy said, its not just the car. More than anything its the seat time, the test days, new tires, etc... The car is the cheap part!

I raced ITB from 04 to 08 until our boy came along and the disposable income went into diapers and stuff.
I did it half assed.
I had a basic car with koni yellows, junkyard engine, welded diff because LSD's were expensive, and ran one set of toyo RA-1's per season (and those shaved toyo's were my rain tire too). I might have had 5K in the build, and then maybe another couple grand in development...maybe...after 4 yrs.

But, the car still ran at the pointy end of the field, and even won (and not only when there were two cars in class :rolleyes:)

I sold the car in 08 for 3k dollars.

Sure deuce keanes accord was not in my sights, but 90% of the cars out there in ITB...I could run with.

Unless something has changed drastically since 08, it can be done cheaply while still running up front in ITB.

And anyone can go out and buy a 8K dollar IT car and run midpack or better if they bring the driving skill along with it.

downingracing right now has a ITA civic that you can run up front in for under 8K....just as an example

Peter Olivola

01-17-2014, 12:45 PM

If you will indulge a 47 year SCCA member, and to quote Harry Truman, "The only thing new under the sun is the history you don't know."

The club overall, categories and individual classes have gone through the cheap to costly cycle multiple times. The observation that it's all fun and games until it matters to someone to win is the controlling factor in all of motorsport.

Jeremy Billiel

01-17-2014, 12:49 PM

Ron Earp

01-17-2014, 01:18 PM

IT is still cheap racing. I've seen the posts pointing to Jeff's TR8, or the ITS Mustangs, as being what is wrong with the class but I beg to differ. We built those cars because we wanted to race a certain make and model. And sure, they are more expensive builds when compared to other ITS cars but that's because they're the only examples in the class and we wanted 10/10ths builds.

But you can get a competitive and winning ITS car for under $8k. I sold my 260Z for $7XXX, eight wheels, with a spare tranny, spare rear end, and 100% functional spare engine. Set the car up right, drive it, and you could podium in any SE ITS race. As Matt said, I've seen many other ITS, ITA, and ITB cars on this site that are similar for stupid cheap money.

IT is still the same old IT. Cheap, affordable.

I do think the SCCA could increase IT participation if they weren't trying to cannibalize it to save national/majors, and if they reduced barriers licensing to be more inline with what other clubs offer. I understand they've made strides in the latter, but are only getting worse with the former.

Chip42

01-17-2014, 02:46 PM

top 3 problems as I hear others say I (those who would be racing or racing IT):
1 - the car I have doesn't fit due to either potential or upgrades not in line with IT, and I want to race THIS car.
2 - too restrictive or "stupid" rules.
3 - prep levels are silly and cost too much, much better to throw the car on a dyno and see what you put down, then review the build and group the cars accordingly (NASA PT).

basically - perception and philosophy issues. all the guys IN IT know there are a bunch of GOOD cars for sale for CHEAP. we ALL advise to buy, not build, but people who want to elevate their current car to race often don't WANT to go that route.

the IT rules really don't fit the paradigm of what many people want to do with a car. the ST rules come a lot closer to that and I fully expected ST to blow up with entries from the TT/TA/Tuner/DriftoMod people. and while a few of them came in (James Innes is a good example, coming from a drag background and selling tuner parts and whatnot through his company IPG Parts) it wasnt' the influx many expected. THAT I think is the fuddy duddy SCCA culture or the reputation of such. oh, and a completely crap job of marketing the club and the category outside of our own membership. this is something we all need to improve upon.

the NASA PT thing is bonkers to me, but I understand the "instant gratification" and "participation awards" mentality of the Dr. Spock generation wants to feel they have a shot even if they didn't do the work. as Jeff said, THIS is a cultural problem, not a rules one. that NASA found a half assed way to accommodate it shows that their desire is to get entries, ours is to hold races.

so people stay away. how do we fix it? I submit that CATEGORY protectionism is the LAST thing we need. if the solution means that IT, LP prod and ST roll into one group while level 1 prod and GT and some other stuff rolls into another, fine. that's something that HAS come up in paddock conversations here and there. yup - it means pains for everyone, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be considered. it's like tearing the bandage off rather than peeling it slowly - or in this case more like cauterizing a wound rather than letting it get gangrenous and then amputating piece by piece with a bone saw and no anesthetic.

Ron - your car is far from "the problem" in IT, it's an example of the level of prep and quality of racing ITS enjoys in the south east. but it is something that can be placed on a plinth as a prime example of how IT is not what IT was not that very long ago. back in the day it was get good parts, build it right, maintain it, drive it well, and you will do well. in many places IT is still this, though the counts are down. if you show up to an ITS race in the southeast with a car not prepped to roughly your level (and understood that on something like an RX7 that will be a lower cost undertaking as the development work is largely done, you can buy the parts and get a big chuck of the way toward the pointy end of the curve) then you had best be one hell of a shoe, because that's a tough group.

some people are attracted to that level of competition and refinement. I know you are. and a lot of those people realize the learning curve and development curves will be steep AND EMBRACE THAT CHALLENGE. BUT more and more, I think people want to slap together something good enough and go race. people have less time, relatively less money, and often don't want a project, they want a racecar despite the fact that you cannot have one without the other as WE - the people who have been at it a while- already know. SM answers that question on paper a lot better than IT does now. and that sucks for guys who love IT and hate watching it shrink.

guys who want to do basically whatever the hell they want and not spend an arm and a leg doing it or worrying about fiddly legality issues or prep levels outside of the paradigm they prefer gravitate to chump and NASA PT/TT.

so prep levels definitely have changed, but preferences have changed, too. we as a club have to decide if we want to chase those preferences or just wait for the cycle to come back around to our way, and hope that it does. as has also been pointed out - the kids largely just aren't into it. that part is just sad.

Cluelessmale

01-17-2014, 05:40 PM

3 - prep levels are silly and cost too much, much better to throw the car on a dyno and see what you put down, then review the build and group the cars accordingly (NASA PT).

The dyno only make these classes worse, everyone knows how to make a switch that tell the ECU to pull timing out of the motor thus making it make a lot less power. Last time we had a car tuned the tuner flat out asked it we needed a tune making XXX less power.

Also false dyno sheet are easy to make

Alfa Mike

01-17-2014, 07:36 PM

There's always IT-7:):(

Chip42

01-18-2014, 12:32 AM

The dyno only make these classes worse, everyone knows how to make a switch that tell the ECU to pull timing out of the motor thus making it make a lot less power. Last time we had a car tuned the tuner flat out asked it we needed a tune making XXX less power.

Also false dyno sheet are easy to make

Just to be clear, im relaying comments i hear, not endorsing them. I think classificatiin by dyno is dumb, though i see some merit in "points" or "chump bucks" as a bassis of establishing prep level and in turn, class.

JeffYoung

01-18-2014, 11:18 AM

adamjabaay

01-19-2014, 09:33 PM

Andy and Ron may have said it better, but I still think IT is entry level racing and in many ways no different than Chumpemons.

Two examples:

1. Ron is right (as is Andy). Any one of the drivers at teh front of the field in ITS could go buy a good Z car or RX7 or 325 for $6-8k, do some minimal work to it, and run at the front in SEDiv. It doesn't take a $70k oddball car to do that.

2. I'm quite sure that if you added labor, etc. in, thee are plenty of cars up front at Chump and Lemons that have $50/60/70k in them.

So, Rob Myles remains right: perception is the reality, regardless of what the real reality is.

at first I thought "YEAH RIGHT!" , and then started adding up the hours I have in my lemons crx, and the hours my brother has in it, and if you billed us 40-50$ an hour or so, we'd owe ourselves a crapload of money..

same thing with my "cheap" ITA car, which I have a LOT of time into, and am only starting to develop.

but, that's part of the fun!

lawtonglenn

01-20-2014, 12:12 AM

...if you billed us 40-50$ an hour or so...

my daughter's volvo just had a little work done at an independent shop (Northern European
Automotive in Concord) at $95/hr

I just had to have a Kubota tech from Townline Equipment come replace a broken hydraulic line
If I could have hauled it there it would have been $98/hr but since it was stranded in the
field, it was $115/hr while he was here plus $115/hr travel time

this is why we do all our own work on the RX7s... we have to!

.

Knestis

01-20-2014, 07:51 AM

...and people like me, who simply don't have the time and infrastructure, rent cars. And the people who provide rentals very quickly figure out the "money value of time" (not the same as the time value of money) and their cheap rental - a la LeMons - goes away.

K

Kahl23

01-22-2014, 08:33 PM

I would encourage anyone who thinks that "the kids just aren't into cars anymore" to seriously reconsider that position. Obviously I'm biased since I'm one of those kids, but if you think about car culture in the past decade, the tuner scene grew to be a $5 billion industry before the recession thanks to us kids. There are a lot of us who love cars and are more than happy to spend money on them (just go to the drag strip on a open track night or to an HPDE event and see for yourself).

What you should be asking is why is fresh blood not coming to SCCA? Forget that instant gratification bull: some of us might be spoiled brats when we leave high school, but the real world knocks that out of us very quickly. Personally, I'm here in large part thanks to Dave's book. I also agree with those who say the club has done a piss poor job marketing itself.

Something else that I don't think has been mentioned: most people's first experience with a club is when someone says, "I'll be racing at a NASA/SCCA/Chump event this weekend, you should come check it out." If someone's buddies are racing in NASA, that's most likely where they're going to go as well. If the club made a concerted effort to attract young people, I'd argue it would only take a few before it became self-perpetualizing.

OUBob

01-22-2014, 10:12 PM

^Thats why Im here. Ruck said "I'm racing at M-O this weekend. Wanna go?" I said "Yea." Then I thought "this is tiddies. I wanna do this." But he SCCA never "reached out" to me. I had to seek it out. Hell, I stopped at Autox events put on by the SCCA and STILL had no idea what the hell they were.

lateapex911

01-22-2014, 10:18 PM

Chip. that was a pretty good soap box speech, and hit a few nails on the head.

Kahl, IN GENERAL, (I realize that there are plenty of exceptions) I see non racing "racing" is becoming very popular. Racing , thats another story. I'm talking about competition in a motor vehicle where the car is a tool. I think that more people are gravitating to less real deal competition, and are wanting to 'race', but wink wink, nudge nudge, they prefer a more soft approach.

NASA PT: It SEEMS like its an even up deal, but it's a cheaters paradise if you get serious. Marque clubs are doing big business with 35 classes for 5 models of Porsches or BMWs. 3 cars, 2 trophies....
As pointed out. Dyno racing?? only chumps have one tune.
HPDEs....I instruct for a group, and when I go into town for lunch in my jeans and tshirt I overhear the guys in their drivers suit brag about how they clocked some other dude in a stock Cayman. A $1500 drivers suit, that is. Look sharp, talk big. God only knows what they're telling people that are more gullible! LOL
It's not just 'the youth of today" I'm talking about.

The groups that are doing well are providing people a place to play, but providing a truly level playing field just isn't that important to most. Heck, I bet that to many, a level playing field is something to be avoided!. I've heard many times: "SCCA?? Oh, they're too serious".
That "Stupid rules" comment? 9 times out of 10 it really means: "I'm not reeeeaaaaly interested in level playing field racing to see who's a better driver/builder/racer, I'd rather go someplace looser and not be so 'serious'". That's FINE. but don't cloak it with a criticism about the rules, be honest and say, "It's more about being involved in racing than it is actually racing for the competition"

If people want to REALLY race...to beat other people on a level playing field, they don't whine about some stupid rule about having to have a washer bottle in place. They go find some plastic bottle and strap it in and use it as an overflow, and get on with their program.

I just think that the number of people who really want to compete....and are okay with laying it all out thee...and losing as part of the process of competing, is becoming smaller.

And the pressures of society and disposable income and the changing role of a 'dad' are all part of it as well.

Wreckerboy

01-23-2014, 09:48 AM

Bill Miller

01-23-2014, 10:03 AM

Jake, that comment about the SCCA being too serious is interesting, because it ain't exactly new. 25 years ago when I got involved with EMRA, the recurring theme was always the same - "the SCCA is too serious, EMRA is more laid back, nicer atmosphere, etc." Thats what we always heard from the SCCA types who came to play with us. And to be frank, the few SCCA events I first attended in the late 80s and early 90s (NER events, by the way), bore this out.

Which mirrors my experience as a car obsessed person back then. I went with the group that was more welcoming and stayed with EMRA for the better part of more than 20 years. I did some SCCA stuff, but always found EMRA more welcoming. Note that I am not even getting into the very vocal anti-EMRA sentiment I came across from various NER folks. Suffice it to say "great salesmanship, guys." There's more than one reason I am a WDCR member even though I live in Joisey.

Now, to be honest, EMRA hasn't exactly flourished in the last few years either, particularly their wheel to wheel program. But, and this is a big but, their Time Trial program is once again growing and bringing in fresh blood. From what I see at a distance, they are getting a fair mix of complete beginners and some HPDE types. The question is if they are retaining them.

So the problem is not JUST getting new people - the success of various HPDE and LeChump groups says that is possible - but of RETAINING them. A mentoring program has been mentioned. How did/does that work? Those of you who came to the SCCA from areas where there are alternatives, why did you continue to race with the SCCA?

Rob, you and I got into EMRA about the same time (late 80's). And I can confirm what you said. I remember one person saying "I fired the SCCA". And as someone new to the sport, what EMRA had to offer was very appealing. It was friendly, low-cost, racing. As a new racer, I didn't expect to be the fastest guy out there, I was just having a blast being on the track. It was a big change from the Time Trial program to the W2W program, and I was loving it. And they way I found out about EMRA was from reading a small, 3-line classified in the back of AutoWeek that said "Drive your street car on a race track". That event was at Pocono, and I will never forget it. It's what sealed the deal for me. Not to mention that there were some really great people that I met. Cally Kruger was the best!!! I haven't followed them in a few years, so I wasn't sure what they were doing.

ShelbyRacer

01-23-2014, 10:12 AM

As a high school teacher, I'd like to add some info on the "kids" conversation.

I see several factors, summed up as actual quotes I've heard, with added commentary-

"Racing games are so realistic and I don't have to spend all that money."
Not sure how to address this one, or if it can even be done. Many kids claim to enjoy the excitement and risk of being on track, but in actuality, they crave safety and the ability to hit the reset button.

"Why should I pay to join a club when I can belong to an online club for free?"
They feel like they are part of a club because of online forums and social network "clubs", and see no benefit to joining ours. When trying to enter an event, either they can't because they aren't a member, or they are told they must become one. In either case, NO ONE tries to give them any value for their money, other than, "If you want to play you have to pay."

"I always find out about the things after they happen."
We do such an awesome job of telling each other when events are, sometimes. If I have to search for info on an event that I heard about, what chance is there for someone who has no idea it's happening to find it, or at least find it in time?

"My friend went to one of those events and hated it. It was so complicated."
Translated, I saw a post on a forum one time, and that has become a very convenient excuse. It boggles my mind sometimes to hear about the "10 different times this happened," when in actuality it was one instance that was reposted and retold by 10 different people. Sure it happened when we were younger, but it didn't happen so fast, AND it didn't show up in a search engine...

Other than the first one, the solution is simple, and it's something that many of us have said before. People come and get involved when someone takes them by the hand and gets them out to an event, and MAKES them have a great time in spite of themselves if necessary. How many of us got involved because someone made it so there wasn't any way NOT to go?

I'm sure many of us have posted event info on our favorite forums, but how many have gone back and looked for those interested and directly messaged them privately? Moreso, gotten a phone number and spoke to them? I know I haven't done it lately...

In the end, people who are brought in by someone tend to join and tend to STAY. Why? Because even when the car stuff sucks, the people (for the most part) are awesome, and they have a connection. I know it's why I'm here, and the majority of our locals will probably say the same. If they weren't brought in by family, they were brought in by friends, or worse, friends that are closer than family.

Discuss.

Wreckerboy

01-23-2014, 10:58 AM

Bill, in order to avoid thread drift you have PM.

gran racing

01-23-2014, 11:00 AM

Kahl23 - I am REALLY happy the book helped you. Makes me feel great to know that.

I started off in EMRA as well. The biggest part was the cars overall were realistic builds and the paddock was filled with large enclosed trailers and totters. Much less intimidating. I did EMRA because it was fun. But as I developed, I wanted more competition and bigger fields in my class. There were also aspects of EMRA which completely turned me off and I never attended an event since. It was tooooooo casual. Guy smoking on grid / pit out, a nice touch. Or other person who was directly tied to EMRA saying he had to take a piss, turns around then walks a few steps then begins right in the paved paddock. Several other similiar issues. Bring friends and family? Ummm, no.

A mentoring program has been mentioned. How did/does that work?

On my site, I put up a link to a page where there were questionnaires. One for experienced drivers / mentors, and another for students. The information then went into a database where I was able to pull reports into Excel. I manually attempted to match people based on geography, cars types involved, and so forth. It became extremely time consuming! After about a year, I needed to stop doing it.

There’s software out there which acts somewhat similar to dating sites which would automate the process, but that’s too expensive for me to implement (and time consuming to set-up). This would be the way to do it though.

Wreckerboy

01-23-2014, 11:45 AM

Dave, my point was not a whole EMRA vs. SCCA thing, but just to point out that at one point one group was more welcoming than another, and that Jake's point about the SCCA being so "serious" isn't exactly a new phenomenon.

To be frank, I haven't spent a lot of time in a NASA paddock (NA or MA). What is the attitude there? They still get/got more people than I see in a SCCA paddock. Are they retaining them? If so, how?

As for the mentoring thing, what, if anything are groups doing locally to help their newest recruits have a good time? Or should that even be their responsibility?

(BTW, I know who was smoking. I just hope to god it wasn't me you saw taking a leak!)

Kahl23

01-23-2014, 11:53 AM

Kahl23

01-23-2014, 12:05 PM

One more thought in response to what Matt Green said, because I completely agree with him. If you look back to the last few pages of this thread, you'll notice that there seems to be a general consensus that younger people aren't joining the club and that's a problem. The comments then go on to characterize kids today as obsessed with instant gratification, uninterested in cars, etc.

I would argue that anyone who is seriously interested in joining a sport like racing doesn't have those characteristics, regardless of age. If I were reading through the forums trying to figure out if IT was right for me and found these comments, I'd run the other way. Maybe part of what needs to happen is the membership needs to change how they view the younger generation?

Jeremy Billiel

01-23-2014, 12:55 PM

Jeff - Any update on the data?

pfcs

01-23-2014, 01:33 PM

Around 1975 I had a hot street Sprite with a roll-bar in it. I had been an avid autocrosser and PHA hill climber in my early twenties, but when SCCA raised the bar on roll-bars (pun unintended) in 71 and we needed tires, the cost forced me to give up.
Then I heard about EMRA and time-trials at Bridgehampton (from Harry Schneider's son). I attended, drove on a full road course, and was hooked!
they said "all you need is a diagonal brace, fire extinguisher, and a kill switch, and you could enter races after you're licensed."
I was there for the next race and school (EMRA has a school at every event, how nice!).
For two years I went to almost every event until I realized I needed a bigger pond.
Then came SCCA.
Without EMRA I would never have gotten here.
There is a lesson here. I was young, avidly followed racing, and had little or no money, but EMRA gave me a vehicle. (pun intended)

And regarding EMRA person pissing on paved paddock-I find that extraordinary. The only paved paddock was a strip behind false grid and a 20' pad behind that for scaling that I always tried to occupy, both front and center/highly visible. The EMRA I knew would never accept that behavior, and, since we used SCCA rules, easily addressed if someone objected.
(unless, of course, this happened late saturday night after the beer party; the culture was a little different 40 years ago)

EDIT: PS: there were many great people in EMRA and some are still my friends. There was very little enmity or elitism there and a great sense of camaraderie, a spirit that if all cooperated in this enterprise, we could do what was not individually possible.

240zdave

01-23-2014, 03:50 PM

I started spectating road racing events in the mid-80's, but I did not personally know anyone who actually raced, nor did I have the disposable income to spend on the hobby, until I met a guy named Chuck Early at the company where we worked in Ft. Lauderdale back in 2001. He had been racing for 25 years, so he walked me through finding a race car, getting it legal and through Tech, my Driver's Schools, and my start in SCCA racing in general. Meeting Chuck happened at the opportune time for me. I finally had some $$ to throw at it, and his knowledge and incouragement was the push I needed. I was by no means young, though, 42 years old, I think. If I had tried to start racing on my own with no help, it would have seemed intimidating.

240zdave

01-23-2014, 04:01 PM

I think there are plenty of young people interested in cars and racing. I have not attended an Import Alliance event, but they have had a couple here in Nashville, and I heard that something like 3,000 cars showed up for the 2-3 day event. A lot of these guys are dropping serious $$$ on these cars, but for most of them (I'm guessing), the car is their daily driver. Their only opportunity to race would be with the daily driver hot rod, because they don't have any more money to spend on a race car, and they are not going to strip a bunch of go-fast goodies and turbos off their street cars to make them legal to race with SCCA. I think the biggest obstacle to attracting a substantial number of young people to the SCCA is that they don't make enough money yet to have the extra they will need for a very expensive hobby. I think when you are talking about getting new people into the club, it's going to be guys (and girls) in their 30's or older, for the most part.

Cluelessmale

01-23-2014, 05:02 PM

Greg Amy

01-23-2014, 05:23 PM

I would not say they don't have the money to do it, it is they don't want to have a race only car. Once the cage goes in the car is not really ideal for the street, also the decal get look from the the friendly officers quickly.

Some of them also don't want to chance wrecking there cars.
Pffft! I drove my Showroom Stock car in full regalia and rollcage for years as my only car. Hell, I drove it twice to Road Atlanta for the SCCA Runoffs with tires and a jack stuffed in the back. Uphill, both ways, too.

If you want it, you'll do it.

http://www.kakashiracing.com/images/misc/shelby_small.jpg

Cluelessmale

01-23-2014, 05:33 PM

Greg I complete understand, we drive the ITS and ITE car all the time, well when there is no snow.

But not everyone does.

Wreckerboy

01-23-2014, 05:36 PM

Phil, you are describing The Bridge. From a previous conversation with Dave, IIRC he is talking about an event at The Glen. And the smoker was the inimitable Bob Hill, who doubtlessly asked for a cigarette when he arrived at the Pearly Gates a few years ago.

Chip42

01-23-2014, 06:56 PM

Jake, I agree to a point.

Try to put yourself in the mindset of someone who is just starting out. You don't know if you actually will enjoy the experience of racing, you just know that it sounds intriguing. With the SCCA, the only way to "test the waters" is to buy, build or rent a car and go to school. All of those options cost at least four figures, which is a lot of money to spend for something that you might try and hate. Contrast this with NASA, BMWCCA, etc., where you can spend a few hundred bucks and get a day on track with your car with an instructor teaching you. Which option would you choose?

I think that there are certainly people who like the looser rule sets because it allows cheating. However, I think that especially for people who are just starting out, it appeals because it's less intimidating. Again, thinking like someone new to the world, how daunting would it be to be handed the GCR and told "good luck"?

The looser rulesets certainly encourage cheating and I am not advocating a switch to something like that at all. Personally, one of the reasons I chose the SCCA is because I was told it was the most serious club racing out there. What I am saying is that the SCCA needs to find a way to ease people into the world of racing. Run what you've brung is the gateway drug of the racing world and right now the only thing the SCCA is selling is the hardcore stuff.

good points here - but I do want to remind everyone that SCCA solo is damn near free and can be run in just about any jalopy you happen to own/borrow/rent/steal/build/wake up in. AutoX is one of if not THE lowest barrier to entry motorsports activities in the world. again - we don't advertise ourselves well, we aren't always welcoming, and we have a grumpy old man reputation and occasionally that's true, but AX tends to be a younger, more excited crowd who tend to have a lot of fun. it is "supposed" to be the gateway to SCCA, and for many is the destination. we do not have a national-level time trials program established and that is a real shame. we have started some PDX, SCCA for "HPDE" but they aren't well subscribed, nor well advertised, and often are held exclusive of race weekends by a very different core group of people.

so yeah, we have issues as a club well before we have issues in IT specifically.

and yes, I think I and some others may have been overly harsh on the kids, and I think Matt makes a great point about taking some kids (or hell, grown ups, just new members) under your wing and helping to motivate and guide them in SCCA. it's hard, we all have very busy lives and it can seem like a huge undertaking, but it's worth it.

if we can convince the club and the regions to make the organization more navigable that would really help, too. there's a lot of personalities and politics involved in that, though.

Greg Amy

01-23-2014, 06:59 PM

...SCCA solo is damn near free and can be run in just about any jalopy you happen to own/borrow/rent/steal/build/wake up in.

Why You Should Run Autocross Even If Your Car Is A Hunk Of Crap (http://jalopnik.com/why-you-should-run-autocross-even-if-your-car-is-a-hunk-1505397108)

http://jalopnik.com/why-you-should-run-autocross-even-if-your-car-is-a-hunk-1505397108

lateapex911

01-23-2014, 10:00 PM

I too drove my racecar to the track for my first year of racing, and to this day, it was the best year I had. While I drove it TO every race, twice I had to find other means of getting it, and me, home. I managed.
In my first event/school a guy made a mistake on the banking at Pocono, and I was the lucky guy in the wrong place. My front right tire dented my roof. With the strut attached. They signed my license though! Borrowed a trailer to drag the hulk home.

Got another body, transferred the stuff and was at my first real race 2 weekends later. Freshly painted and all.

I loaded me and my GF and a tent, a jack, and all the tools I could cram in and thats how we rolled that summer. Couldn't put more than 7 gallons in the tank, because the car rode too low and rubbed the tires. The RACE rubber tires...which I drove to 7 different events on.

At the Glen, (The longest drive by far) the motor done blown up. Rented a car to get home, then the next weekend rented a bumper hitch and 'borrowed' the work van. Bossman says, "You're not towing your car to Watkins Glen with the van are you????". No siree, sir, I am certainly NOT towing to the Glen. From the Glen? hells yea, LOL. It was a shaky run home. Made it fine though. Had to put new brakes on the van, though (shhh)

Last event was at Lime Rock. My Mom came up to watch, her first (and last) race ever. Poor GF had to hold her hand the entire day, LOL.
Finished in the trophys in a 20 car ITA field, against Kurt Weiss and Chuck Noonan. (Some may recognize those names. Kurt held the LRP lap record, and was the CRB chair for the SCCA) I was pretty proud of that accomplishment...the ONLY car driven there, (In ITA) and on tires that had an easy 3000 street miles on them and 2 schools, 7 races, and a test day on them. Beat a Corvair too!

So, yea, if you really want to race, you can do it.

gran racing

01-24-2014, 08:59 AM

After I got tired of driving it to the track, I upgraded to a tow dolly behing a 4 cyl Jeep Wrangler. Damn some of those hills near Lime Rock are huge!

Rob and Phil, the big point I was making between EMRA and SCCA (and several other clubs compared to SCCA) is the difference in professionalism. I felt like others were fun, but SCCA was "the real deal" at least in the North East. I know many younger people won't look at this but even consider corner workers. SCCA has multiple in each station. Many other clubs? Hopefully one who may or may not have training.

A real eye opener for me was watching a car go off track, hit a tree, and it took a Loooooong time for anyone to reach the car (at LRP). I was tempted to jump the damn fence myself.

JLawton

01-24-2014, 09:10 AM

I think we need to understand that we can't be EVERYTHING to EVERYONE. I don't think be can we the casual, laid back type of atmosphere yet be the most competitive non pro racing venue. I like being part of the SCCA because everyone takes it serious, from a competitive stand point as well as safety. I like that there is a strict rule set.

On the New England Region website I am listed as the "New Driver Ambassador" (what ever the hell that means) with my contact info. I only get contacted maybe 6 times a year?? And I go out of my way to walk people through the process, answer all their questions and connect them to people who can help them with stuff I can't and BEG them to contact me if they have further questions or problems............... So the help is out there, people unfortunately arent taking advantage of it.........

I don't know if there is a silver bullet for this......

Edit: I hate to sound like the "old guy" but having two teenagers I think it makes me some what of an expert.......... but I also don't think the younger generation (in general) is willing to put in the effort to get out there. When I started I had no money, no experience and knew no one who raced. I had to bust my ass to get started. Very few youngsters have rich parents that will hand this experience to them on a silver platter. If you want it bad enough you'll make it happen.

gran racing

01-24-2014, 11:08 AM

Jeff – I’m almost surprised you get contacted that often from the NER website. If I’m new and go to 90% of the regions sites (at least the numerous ones I’ve seen), it’s doesn’t make it easy for the new person to figure things out.

I first went to see how you are listed and went to Regional Contacts. Nope, not there. Instead you’re on the Club Racing Board. I didn’t expect to fine information about how to get into racing on that page.

Then you are simply listed on the page in a column of many other names with s title of New Driver Ambassador. Okay, what’s that says new person.

Want to volunteer? The volunteer page talks about the different duties but I didn’t see who I actually can contact about it.
Sure, people can dig through the site but maybe they were really initially trying to get an idea of what’s involved – looking for that bait. Overall regions are not making it easy. I am not picking on the NER website, but you had me curious if anything had changed and know from looking at many others they are in a similar position. Before I get the “why not make suggestions to them” – I have. I recognize it’s run by volunteers yet since we’re looking for solutions, I believe this is one of the many.

The process of getting information and getting started is too hard! Jeff mentions that many younger people are not willing to make the effort to get out there but we're certainly not helping matters.

Wreckerboy

01-24-2014, 01:49 PM

We most certainly are not. Several of the HPDE groups that I instruct with send the registrant an entire package with all the things they need to know for the day. They then give the registrant a package that has all of that information again when they show up at the track. The best I saw was a checklist that included everything from basic car prep steps through bringing food and water with you to who to see at the track and what you would be doing when. Many of them even make their home pages simple - "Press this button to be on track with us!" and the rest happens by FM*. Conversely, I've seen some groups where I can't figure out what is going on with their web site (Hooked On Driving, I'm looking at you.).

We need to make it simple. Jeff's "New Driver Ambassador" information needs to be front and center, for example. The class reps need to identify the newbies and do a little hand holding. I've done it more than once at a WDCR event, answering questions that are simple to me but can be overwhelming to a beginner.

*effing magic. It's a technical term. Sorry if I'm speaking over people's heads.

erlrich

01-24-2014, 03:35 PM

I've done it more than once at a WDCR event, answering questions that are simple to me but can be overwhelming to a beginner.

And yet, when I ask you how your little Barbie's dream car can turn laps faster than my Nismo-truck-powered son-of-Godzilla, you just shrug your shoulders and smile...

...that's just wrong, man.

Wreckerboy

01-24-2014, 04:24 PM

And yet, when I ask you how your little Barbie's dream car can turn laps faster than my Nismo-truck-powered son-of-Godzilla, you just shrug your shoulders and smile...

...that's just wrong, man.

(walks off whistling into the night)

Andy Bettencourt

01-24-2014, 05:13 PM

I think we can agree that this stuff is cyclical.

SCCA starts way-back-when and it's casual and fun. There are not many other organizations
SCCA grows and becomes more and more popular
More popular = more money
More money = more competition
More competition = tighter regulations, safety and racing
Tighter R, S and R = means barriers to entry are higher and a less casual and 'fun' atmosphere is available
Barriers and more fun needed means other casual and fun clubs pop up to fill a need
New clubs go to #2 if they are successful

FWIW, the 2013 NASA Championships just happened and the following cars showed up in PT:

PTB: 3
PTC: 5
PTD: 10
PTE: 7

'Casual and fun' or 'Popular and successful'?

Ron Earp

01-24-2014, 08:23 PM

FWIW, the 2013 NASA Championships just happened and the following cars showed up in PT:

PTB: 3
PTC: 5
PTD: 10
PTE: 7

'Casual and fun' or 'Popular and successful'?

At least PT was invited to the NASA Championship. IT has no National Championship. The closest thing to a SCCA IT Championship is a SARRC/NARRC series win. And the SARRC/NARRC championship numbers are about the same as those PT participation numbers.

Andy Bettencourt

01-25-2014, 09:29 AM

At least PT was invited to the NASA Championship. IT has no National Championship. The closest thing to a SCCA IT Championship is a SARRC/NARRC series win. And the SARRC/NARRC championship numbers are about the same as those PT participation numbers.

Apples and oranges. My point is that I have yet to see any real data that PT is putting a visible dent in SCCA's entries.

And the point also is that there is a place for NASA's PT under the 'more casual, more 'fun'' scenario. Once it becomes really popular, money and restrictions will come.

gran racing

01-25-2014, 09:40 AM

If I were to look at PTs numbers, I'd be more curious about participation in NASA's regular events. That's at least assuming we're talking about a place that's more affordable or perceived easier to get in. Maybe it's doing better where people are local to events? I have to imagine the stats are accessible.

Flyinglizard

01-25-2014, 12:10 PM

NASA TT and the PDX are doing very well. The racer group is small( 60 ish here in FL). The cost is 1.5 - 2X SCCA prices. It is much harder to get a NASA comp license than it is SCCA license.

Summery; NASA cost more and less accessible than SCCA.
There are very few lower class PT cars, maybe no ITB or ITC level cars. Most are BMW, E 30- 36, Miata Vetts. ITS level and faster .
The TT group is big and growing. The rules are loose with lots of street- track cars running.

MM, severly ADD, and yeah I flunked English in my Engineering school. A product of Rochester NY gifted education. yeah I will change my sig when I get time. :)

gran racing

01-25-2014, 12:36 PM

I believe that really depends on the region though Mike.

Spa67

01-25-2014, 04:40 PM

The car counts for PT racing in the Mid Atlantic is tiny compared to the IT car counts.

However I don't know what the 5-10 year trends are. I know that locally, here in DC, we are a little down from the boom days of the late '90s and mid '00s but general economic conditions are more likely the culprit. What I don't know at all is if the PT classes have been growing.

In any activity trend is at least as important as the current state.

Once again I must point out that much of the appeal of IT is the LACK of a national championship and national level racing. There are plenty of other classes for that. I don't want to compete with national level budgets and talent at this point in my "career".

Andy Bettencourt

01-25-2014, 05:27 PM

I don't want to compete with national level budgets and talent at this point in my "career".

I submit you have been lucky thus far. :)

Greg Amy

01-25-2014, 05:50 PM

I submit you have been lucky thus far. :)
Amen.

Easiest way to keep going that direction is to find a class that's not so popular...ITC could use a little CPR...

Spa67

01-26-2014, 02:04 PM

I submit you have been lucky thus far. :)

I'm sorry. I don't mean to be rude, but I have no idea what you mean by this. Is it a sarcastic comment or a comment specifically referencing some particular racer in my region?

I really do not know. I'm sorry I've only been doing this for two years. I really enjoy the racing and the folks I race with. Yes, we've had a few "out-of-of-towners" that appear to play by their own rules, but for the most part I've found my competitors to be kind and fair people who fight like hell on the track and help each other just as much as they can in the pits.

I find the sarcasm, negativity, and vitriol on this board terribly uncomfortable and unwelcoming. I strongly believe that it does not help the sharing of information that is the purpose of this board. In fact this board is probably part of the problem.

Take a step back and imagine you are thinking about racing in IT. You've just found this board through Google. You poke around and read some threads. How would you feel about the group of folks you are considering competing and spending time with? Would you want to spend thousands to join this lot?

downingracing

01-26-2014, 02:54 PM

I won't speak for Andy, but I took that comment to mean that you have been mucky so far to not run into the big budget team running in IT. There are plenty of cars running with 'national level' prep and budgets. And the more you do this, the more you will find there are plenty of very talented drivers running in the IT classes. Every pocket of the country is different. One IT class may be heavily subscribed in your area while anothe class is almost dead.

The winter time on every board leads to fun discussions that would probably turn off any newb. Hopefully people coming here to check us out will take in everything and weed out the crazy (like we all do) before forming an opinion about the group as a whole. :)

Wreckerboy

01-26-2014, 05:43 PM

I can't speak Andy either, except - exactly what he said.

You've been lucky in that some major league Type A type and a budget to match hasn't shown up in your neck of the woods and done the sort of 11/10ths build that many here have done and many others have watched. Somebody hasn't spent the time to do build on the level of the Earpstangs (build thread detailed in the Ford section, it's an excellent read), or tGA's old NX, or Andy Bettancourt's Miata, or Jeff's TR8, just to cite a few examples, and there are many others. Because when somebody shows up with that kind of effort in a build everybody else is going to have to up their game if they want to remain competitive.

Let me reiterate that last part for you - IF THEY WANT TO REMAIN COMPETITIVE. Nothing is forcing you to do so, nothing at all. By all means continue to drive your car as is and have fun. But you will get in all likelyhood get stomped by a 11/10ths car, all other things being equal. There is always somebody out there who wants it more and is willing to devote the resources to do so.

That's not meant to be negative, petty, or mean spirited. It's more like a basic truth of racing. There is no sarcasm directed at you here (at each other is another story, but that's how we show our love), no vitriol. I, and probably everybody else in this thread are glad you are having a good time racing amongst your friends, and in hope that continues. But all it takes is one person to ruin your party, and you're deluding yourself if you think otherwise. That's what he's saying.

Knestis

01-26-2014, 08:25 PM

With respect, Hayes, your current competitive situation is an accident of timing. Things were relatively quiet in the MARRS series in ITB this past year, frankly without a lot of competitive pressure. Wayback Machine yourself to 2011, or 2010 when Jeff Underwood set the ITB lap record - a low 1:28 - and your experience would be very different.

This is probably going to get me on the negativity and vitriol list but frankly, chasing those guys (Tristan Herbert, Dave Gran, et al.) who were banging down the sub 1:30s week after week was an example of the whole reason we race. I got substantially faster because of it.

Fighting for a win because the fast - and yes, well-funded and well-developed - entrants don't show up isn't making a very compelling argument for what the "state of IT" should be.

K

Andy Bettencourt

01-27-2014, 11:19 AM

I'm sorry. I don't mean to be rude, but I have no idea what you mean by this. Is it a sarcastic comment or a comment specifically referencing some particular racer in my region?

I really do not know. I'm sorry I've only been doing this for two years. I really enjoy the racing and the folks I race with. Yes, we've had a few "out-of-of-towners" that appear to play by their own rules, but for the most part I've found my competitors to be kind and fair people who fight like hell on the track and help each other just as much as they can in the pits.

I find the sarcasm, negativity, and vitriol on this board terribly uncomfortable and unwelcoming. I strongly believe that it does not help the sharing of information that is the purpose of this board. In fact this board is probably part of the problem.

Take a step back and imagine you are thinking about racing in IT. You've just found this board through Google. You poke around and read some threads. How would you feel about the group of folks you are considering competing and spending time with? Would you want to spend thousands to join this lot?

So yes, the esteemed members above have articulated my comment to you. The :) should have helped you understand that, even if you didn't understand, it was not meant as a shot.

This BB can get mired in minutia, in the off season especially, but these things are usually born from legitimate rules-interpretation questions. We are lucky to have numerous members from past and current IT and ST boards who frequent this site. You only get what you want out of reading it. I have said it before and I will say it again...10X the drivers have told me that they get a ton from the rules debates than have said the site stinks. Not so much from a 'resolution' standpoint but from a 'how I should or could be' reading the rulebook.

My point on your original post? You are having fun and have a great group of racers who race hard but apparently don't have 'national' level budget...is just luck so far. Many pockets of IT across the country do have that...and it has been driven by a singular goal of one racer or the classes popularity in general. It's not IT that has you happy, it's the local scene so far...and that's ok!

If I was to take a step back and look at the BB overall, it has what it needs. Some love, some hate, but mostly a real flavor for what it's like to build, race and survive in the often not-so-glamorous and way-to-expensive hobby we call Club Racing.

:)

webhound

01-27-2014, 12:47 PM

Funny thing regarding the above: at this year's ARRC, I can guarantee that the FProd winner had less money in prep, and probably in the car as a whole, than ANY of the IT winners. YMMV, but all that matters is who shows up on any given weekend. Same as it would be in any sort of racing, from pigs at the fair, to the local 5K, to any given club race.

jumbojimbo

01-27-2014, 01:39 PM

I agree and I think to some degree the cynicism of some people is what is makes them think that what Hayes is experiencing is an aberration. What he's experiencing is what club racing (and hog showing and 5k runs) should be about and it is about for the most part.

It has nothing to do with IT rules or the "current state" of IT. Hayes is experiencing fair, clean racing with a nice bunch of people. I can tell you that if I wasn't experiencing that, I would not be around. I don't race to win, I race to enjoy myself.

But this has nothing to do with IT rules or IT as a category. Sure, someone can build a 10/10th car, or even an 11/10th car and run away. But that doesn't have to change the experience. So you get beat, you either up your game if you think that is fun or you continue having the same fun you have now, just 1 position lower on the results. It's only a problem if you make it one. It's only a problem if as individuals and as a group those fun people decide to let it discourage them and drive them away. It's not possible for everyone to finish first, so if that is the only way people will be happy, then people will drift away regardless. Someone will always be 5th if there are 5 cars.

Other potential problems like overaggressive drivers or drivers who people who take it too seriously and aren't able to leave the competition on the track are not an IT problem, they are a racing culture problem. Just as people who cheat or don't compete with good sportsman ship are a culture problem in any activity. There is always going to be some ahole who gets his enjoyment not by winning, but by making other people feel bad about losing. That's life and we see it in volleyball, i've seen it in golf, if I showed pigs I'm sure I'd see it there too.

JeffYoung

01-27-2014, 02:54 PM

Some random thoughts on this thread (just caught up on it).

Kirk - excellent post. Chasing the fast guys was/is the most fun I've had on track.

Jim -- excellent post. Racing with guys you like and have fun with is nearly as important.

Hayes -- welcome to IT! lol...by the way, I do agree with you to an extent about these Boards. Most of us on here know each other, pretty well, and have for a long time. We are probably too clubby and too sarcastic and we probably come off as not being a group you'd want to race with, when in fact the opposite is true. Will try to work on that, on my end.

NASA PT -- to me, sorry, but it's a joke. Mostly crossover cars, small fields, not much competition. At least in the SEDiv and MidAtlanta. I don't see anyone leaving IT for PT, and Andy is right, if it got popular, their rule set would mean HIGH dollar testing and development bills to maximize your allowed mods with points.

chuck baader

01-27-2014, 05:30 PM

Chip42

01-27-2014, 06:31 PM

Sorta, kinda, maybe want to try PT with my ITS RX7...until I tried to understand the rules. I have no frekin clue how my car would be classified. The rules are a complete cluster f""k. And me with a mechanical engineer degree trying to assess my car. That, and fields that are way smaller than ITS make me run from them:026:

yet somehow, to SOME people those rules are seen as more fair - or maybe they only like that they can do less work and be on a more even footing with those that do more. I really don't know how well they work out, and the fields aren't deep enough from what I've seen to really show it anyhow.

saw a not insignificant number of young people (younger than me) at the Rolex24, and a good number with shirts showing car stuff - "hella flush" type stuff more than "racing" but plenty of both, and many more kids whose clothing did not allow me to file them into a car category. whatever the case, they were at a sportscar race and we weren't reaching out as a club in an organized way (we did provide vans with our logo to move our flaggers around and help THEIR race happen, but the outsiders don't know that).

I spoke to one younger (roughly my age, early 30s) guy at the GRM area with a turbo'ed Miata. he runs in the local SCCA alternative AutoX club (Martin) and does track days and whatnot with various organizations. even knows our friend Mark Dana. says he used to run SCCA but every time he goes to an event there's the one guy with the handlebar mustache that makes it a PIA. this is a specific guy, not a generalization. luckily I know the guys who run the show locally and I think I know who he's talking about, so I'll try to find out if handlebar's personality can be adjusted AND I asked the guy with the Miata to give us another shot. not going to race in that car, but still a perfect club member that isn't.

Knestis

01-27-2014, 07:07 PM

I did a NASA PT race at the UTCC weekend in 2007 and had some good racing. It's not happening now in Mid-Atlantic, anyway.

http://www.nasaracing.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/2013-NASA_POINTS_2013.xls

AI, CMC, the GTS classes, Spec e30, and SM are paying the bills. PT is sucking wind. If the system had potential, it would be blossoming by now.

K

JeffYoung

01-28-2014, 01:02 AM

Keyrect. PT turnouts at VIR range from near zero to 4-5 PTE cars and not much else.

The classes you mention carry the weight, and even SpecE30 is showing a down trend.

But at least SM has Cole Trickle!

lateapex911

01-28-2014, 01:24 AM

Chip, I bet Mr Handlebar works in tech. I swear, IF SCCA Regions had any power to control it, they'd put a pretty girl in tech JUST as a 'greeter'. She could do the straightforward run of the mill stuff. (yea, I'm being sexist, here's my defense: Of the 300 racers at any given regional, MAYbe 3 are female. Of the remaining 297, MAYbe 3 have the credentials to work tech effectively. Of the 3 females, .03 have the same capability)

Or, just having a nice guy there is key. That's not to say I haven't met nice tech people. NER has upped their tech game recently, (Mssrs AMy and his Big Dick, come to mind), but Ive also been screwed by tech guys, been treated rudely by tech guys, and watched two tech guys get all crazy infighting mad about my car, resulting in one guy scrawling some impossible to do instructions and throwing my book in my car and storming away, leaving the other guy saying, "I was trying to get you a fix my next weekend on that, figuring the NEXT tech guy would be fine with it". So, a wasted trip, no racing and I had to rip out and redo part of the cage....the part I modeled after a tech guys efforts in THE SAME CAR...which had a logbook. :shrug:

Cliff notes: Other than registration, Tech is THE place where newbies "Meet" SCCA. They don't know AZR from NER from NYR...they just think of it all as SCCA. ANd when an SCCA tech inspector is surly or less than welcoming, it makes the club surly and less than welcoming.

Greg Amy

01-28-2014, 08:04 AM

Tech/Stewards on a power trip like Mr Mustache are not welcome to any SCCA that I'm a part of. And not that I necessarily have much to say about it, but I will actively try to get rid of anyone that gives people crap simply for the sake of it.

On the other hand, I'm sure you've met That Guy, usually having breakfast at the hotel in his driver's suit, that walks into the paddock with this big piece of wood on his shoulder (usually stating something about how he paid his entry fee and demands assistance, blah, blah, blah). Those won't last very long either, if I have anything to say about it.

GA

Chip42

01-28-2014, 01:52 PM

I'm also an occasional scrutineer, more often in the past before my kid was here and the ITB car completed.

I've worked with several overly ambitious tech workers, some stewards who had a chip on their shoulder, and seen many arguments between racers and scrutineers and plenty between 2 or more scrutineers.

it's definitely one of our biggest problems. the balancing act of getting a knowledgeable volunteer to promote safety and take a hard line between legality and illegality while NOT getting on personal quests to address issue X and NOT getting overzealous, and keeping it cordial in that environment is NOT an easy one. that we mostly have "aged out racers" working in that capacity who are tired of excuses doesn't help. I've not seen the Dick and Amy show at work, but I've heard good things. time for some training on customer relations?

Ed Funk

01-28-2014, 02:35 PM

Greg and Dick make it fun to go to tech...they have free beer and hotdogs. Well, OK, it's not fun, but at least it's not a crap shoot. And maybe they don't have beer and 'dogs, but you can bribe them with same. OK, I may have exaggerated a bit....they're above average.

dickita15

01-28-2014, 03:47 PM

Tech is a problem, I have spent plenty of time on both sides of the tech line and I certainly know as much as anyone that the club needs to be user friendly but I got to tell you work Tech all day and it is pretty tough not to let someone get your goat. As a driver you are very careful because these people have the ability to make your life harder and as a tech worker it seems like you are bound to come up against someone who is just not easy to deal with.
I wish I had the answer other than both sides need to understand the end goal for everyone to have fun safely.

Chip42

01-28-2014, 03:52 PM

and rules clarity.

big things like jakes roll cage to simple things like having "OFF" stickers on the side of the car and at the location of the switch, or just on the side of the car...

people get really frustrated when the left hand and the right hand don't agree with one another. when your car is deemed legal one day and illegal the next, with the only thing changing being the day, something is amiss. it's a big rulebook, it's hard for ANYONE to know it inside and out, but the basic safety elements - cage, seat, belts, decals, kill switch, fire system/bottle and the like should be crystal clear. there should not exist the opportunity to have 2 contradicting opinions even when cage design is otherwise open.

Greg Amy

01-28-2014, 03:55 PM

... there should not exist the opportunity to have 2 contradicting opinions even when cage design is otherwise open...

And if there is, I let folks know that $25 and a simple form and you can get it resolved. And unless you're just being an a*****e you'll probably get the $25 back, regardless of the answer.

Dick, I think that time you were just having a bad day...or you allowed "that guy" get under your saddle (which you're very good at avoiding...)

GA

dickita15

01-28-2014, 04:38 PM

And if there is, I let folks know that $25 and a simple form and you can get it resolved. And unless you're just being an a*****e you'll probably get the $25 back, regardless of the answer.

Dick, I think that time you were just having a bad day...or you allowed "that guy" get under your saddle (which you're very good at avoiding...)

GA

on the first point my advice is when you are told something is wrong you do not think is correct try, "i did not know that can you show me in the book where it explains that".

on the second point it is more than a bad day, working tech I often find competitors nervous, defensive and needy. there is a structural problem with the interaction that I wish I had a solution for.

Andy Bettencourt

01-28-2014, 04:56 PM

lateapex911

01-28-2014, 06:33 PM

I especially like Dick, Chip and Greg's opinions here because they are both current tech guys as well as current racers.

I laughed when Greg mentioned 'that' racer. There are dinks on BOTH sides of the isle. We are more lucky than not up here in New England. Great group of tech guys from my experience.

Yes, having Dick, and now Greg in tech, and having them both be active racers, is awesome.
Those who know me know I'm pretty hard to REALLy get pissed off. The thing with my cage happened when i was really new to SCCA. I modeled my cage after the one that the tech guy did in his OWN RX-7, so i was aghast when I was "Non compliant" and sent home to rip out members and place them differently by a guy who literally threw my logbook into the back of my car. Honestly, if I hadn't invested so much into the car at the time, and if the then current CRB chair wasn't a close friend, I think I would have fixed the car and bailed.

If that was my ONLY WTF experience with tech, I'd be fine, writing it off as a one time thing. But I've missed sessions due to things being judged 'inadequate' that were perfectly fine the previous year. ???? And those same solutions were better than other solutions that were signed off by other tech inspectors in the SAME tech session! (When challenged, Mr Tech Inspector says, "I don't have to show you the rule, it's your godamn life I'm saving, now go fix it!". Of course by then it's written in pen in the book, and going 'up the ladder' means finding a Steward, (not knowing who or how to find that guy adds to the fear factor) hoping HE will have time, that be in a good mood, will NOT the best friend of the Tech guy, means probably missing ANOTHER session before it's all resolved, so, the path of least resistance was to source ANOTHER solution ($$$) to the issue, go BACK to tech, (this time getting ANOTHER tech guy who was really confused as to why I was dinked to start with) and ended up missing most of the next session.

Now, that guy I've later found, was deemed by his region to be a 'bad guy', after many many similar complaints, and was asked/told to leave.

So, thats the good news. And the new people are great. I certainly understand us racers are a mix of nice guys and assholes, geniuses who 'know better' and forgetful morons, and dealing with us all day can really sap ones will to smile...but forcign us to miss races and sessions and waste time and money isn't great for our will to continue in a sport where most outside influences (a draining bank account, a semi tolerant wife/family, etc) are pulling us away..

NER has taken a great step forward in having Stewards there just for "contact impound', and they've also been aggressive about staffing the tech area with not just the right people, but enough of them.

I think THATS key. Instead of one guy arguing with a racer over something, bringing a second calmer voice in with a 'fresh take' can help.