New England Region IT EZ [Archive] - Improved Touring Racing Forums

dickita15

12-16-2013, 05:02 PM

New England Region Club Racing is adding a new class for regional racing in 2014.
2014 New England Region Rules
Improved Touring – EZ
The purpose of IT‐EZ is to create a regional class where cars built for ChumpCar or Lemons racing, or for cars that could be ITE legal but do not belong in the fast race group, to have a place to race on an SCCA Regional race weekend. As opposed to any other class of SCCA road racing, IT‐EZ competition is designed as a “fun run” class, without any promise of intent of performance equitability. IT‐EZ is designed to provide a way for drivers to earn an SCCA racing license and race in regional competition, with the absolute lowest cost vehicle. In no way will any waivers be considered or granted in areas regarding safety of vehicle or driver.
IT‐EZ vehicles may race with prior accident damage, as long as that prior damage does not create a danger to the driver of that vehicle or fellow competitors.
Non‐functional additions to vehicles, whose primary purpose is to express creativity, theme, are allowed only if do not create a potential safety hazard to the driver or fellow competitors
IT‐EZ eligible vehicles
Must be a “mass produced,” gas or diesel powered, four wheel passenger car.
Minimum weight of 1800 pounds and a maximum weight of 4000 pounds and a production‐based engine.
Tires must conform to applicable Improved Touring rules, i.e., must be DOT rated tires, and sizes must be consistent with allowable dimensions per the GCR. 190 wear‐dated tires are not mandated, but they may be used if the racer prefers.
Preparation regarding brakes, suspension, and engine must meet either Chumpcar rules or SCCA Improved Touring rules

Ed Funk

12-16-2013, 05:50 PM

And what group are these rolling shit boxes going to be running in?

pfcs

12-16-2013, 06:09 PM

Your rapier witted posts will be "publishers quality"

Knestis

12-16-2013, 06:21 PM

Just in the interest of consistency, it might be good to look at what they are doing with the enduro rules in New Jersey to include LeChump cars. A good idea.

K

dickita15

12-16-2013, 06:26 PM

And what group are these rolling shit boxes going to be running in?

Wow Ed, judgmental much.

Last I heard the group was SSM,SM2, STU, STL, ITC,ITEZ but that is subject to change. We also are trying to design this class so the stewards have some discretion as to where they fit best. We started talking about a second IT catch all class because there are a few cars out there that are really not right for the normal IT classes but are too slow of ITE. This progressed into making a home for some of the crap can or lemons guys who want to try our style of racing. There are some talented drivers and some good cars in those series and I think it would be good for us to give them an opportunity to race with us.

dickita15

12-16-2013, 06:28 PM

Just in the interest of consistency, it might be good to look at what they are doing with the enduro rules in New Jersey to include LeChump cars. A good idea.

K

well yes someday maybe but they have too many classes (3 I think) for us right now. if this catches on and we need to set competition levels that would be a logical place to start.

dtanthon

12-16-2013, 06:32 PM

Rules (http://www.njrrs.com/LeChump-Rules.pdf) from NJRRS site. (No Animal House themes :( )

The purpose of these LeChump rules is to create an opportunity for cars built for ChumpCar World Series (ChumpCar) or the 24 Hours of LeMons (LeMons) to compete safely in SCCA regional races. They are intended to provide low-pressure classes without the necessity of extensive modifications to existing cars. Multiple classes are provided to foster competition, however, there is no guarantee that any specific make, model or car will be competitive.

All drivers must fully conform to SCCA driver licensing requirements. Prior LeChump racing experience may be considered for SCCA licensing but automatic license exchange is not guaranteed or contemplated. Each situation is considered on its individual merits. All driver safety gear must comply with the GCR requirements.

On my note - I attended 2 Lemons races earlier this year, at NJMP and NHMS. Quite a variety of cars and talent. But some would fit into IT without any problem.

tom91ita

12-16-2013, 07:26 PM

Dick

I like the idea and LOVE the class name.

Our LeMons "shitbox" runs ITB times on street tires and could run competitive ITA times with Hoosiers. And this car started its race career as a SCCA ITC car.

Others mileage and speed would vary.

Tom

Flyinglizard

12-16-2013, 07:42 PM

great scott!!
Good start Dick.

Please use 180 as the tread wear rule.
That is the standard for the SCCA PNW ITJ. , CC- lemons, the new World Racing League and many others. Keep the horse in the barn.
I would add that any tire designed to circumvent the 180 street tire "aura", will be excluded.
Lets Keep "those cars" on the slow tires, please.
The last thing I want to see is my 210Hp, 1800#,TurboJett,(shitbox) rolling on purple crack. It makes 1.5+ G on Hoes.

Pretty sure that is not what we want.
Yeah we want to be grouped in whatever group that ed is in,, :)
MM

tom91ita

12-16-2013, 07:59 PM

Instead of IT-EZ on the door, we could install TP dispensers in the side of the door.....

I want to take our LeMons car to one of these events just to run faster than some of the others "regular" cars.

Flyinglizard

12-16-2013, 08:07 PM

gennus.. A few wraps around my open main hoop..

tom91ita

12-16-2013, 08:17 PM

I am thinking of something like this

http://www.periodbath.com/pdshop/shop/item.aspx?itemid=2713

How many wraps of TP to meet SFI impact protection?

Seriously, Dick, any program like this to get racers into scca is a step in the right direction.

Ed Funk

12-16-2013, 08:23 PM

Just not interested in having some of the oh-so-unique "decoration" falling off in front of me.

RSTPerformance

12-16-2013, 08:26 PM

This is fantastic news! Working on getting three people signed up for the school in April... Not ure they will do it but I am going to hound them!

I do agree with the street tire rule though... It's what they use now, keep it that way before it is to late!

Raymond

Knestis

12-16-2013, 09:23 PM

well yes someday maybe but they have too many classes (3 I think) for us right now. if this catches on and we need to set competition levels that would be a logical place to start.

Makes the rules process even easier:

"All entries in NER's 'IT EZ' class will conform to rules published for any one of the Jersey Racing Board's LCC1, LCC2, or LCC3 classes, as published in 'LeChump Regional Classes - Rules and Specifications' dated 9/13/13."

Soup.

I recommend that you give a hard think about what will happen when an idea like this is successful and future-proof it to the greatest extent possible right out of the gate. We know what the rules are intended to accomplish but there is absolutely nothing preventing some enterprising nutjob - like we have lots of here - from optimizing a car to a set of extremely loose rules.

Or you end up with a bunch of cars wanting to run next year, people start agitating for separate classes, but everyone has their own tweak that they want incorporated in the plan. You could just wave the wand and have three classes without upsetting anyone with changes.

Regardless, that's details. It's still a good idea.

K

adamjabaay

12-16-2013, 11:38 PM

tom-.......I'm in. Lets load the trailer and doit

gran racing

12-17-2013, 08:55 AM

I agree with K but think this is great. Also think now would be the time for street tires. Why not?

Thanks for getting this going Dick and others who may have been involved.

georgethefierce

12-17-2013, 09:01 AM

Just not interested in having some of the oh-so-unique "decoration" falling off in front of me.

most if not all of them can be "de-themed" to run in the EZ class, I see no need to keep the 30lbs of paper mache dog crap duct taped to the top of a car for an SCCA weekend... and Ed's complaint is the biggest one i hear from the "regulars" Lechump guys are people too and most have a semblance of common sense.

Greg Amy

12-17-2013, 09:35 AM

most if not all of them can be "de-themed" to run in the EZ class...
Note a sentence in Dick's original post:

Non‐functional additions to vehicles, whose primary purpose is to express creativity, theme, are allowed only if do not create a potential safety hazard to the driver or fellow competitors.

There's a lot of subjectivity in that statement, and a lot of flexibility for the stewards (and Tech). I won't issue a logbook to a car that appears to have something that can create a safety hazard, and I'm sure the stewards will ask competitors to simply unscrew the Lowe's sheet metal screws and remove the chicken head.

Open the mind, let's give it a shot. We have the administrative ability to say "no"; let's start with "yes" and see how it goes.

- GA

StephenB

12-17-2013, 10:13 AM

Open the mind, let's give it a shot. We have the administrative ability to say "no"; let's start with "yes" and see how it goes.

- GA

I agree with what greg said above.

I can see why people like the idea of the NJ classing but I can also see why we wouldn't do that. The class is called EZ so lets make it EZ for anyone to do it without worrying about to many rules to follow. If it works out then just add in those other classes and eventually eliminate this class... if it is what the competitors decide they want. for know EZ button is my opinion!

georgethefierce

12-17-2013, 10:25 AM

Note a sentence in Dick's original post:

There's a lot of subjectivity in that statement, and a lot of flexibility for the stewards (and Tech). I won't issue a logbook to a car that appears to have something that can create a safety hazard, and I'm sure the stewards will ask competitors to simply unscrew the Lowe's sheet metal screws and remove the chicken head.

Open the mind, let's give it a shot. We have the administrative ability to say "no"; let's start with "yes" and see how it goes.

- GA

indeed!

JLawton

12-17-2013, 10:37 AM

I think it's a great idea!! I also think it may catch on and that grouping with the Miata's might become too big.........?? Maybe make it ITEZ and Ed? Especially if he's driving his ITA car!! :D

In regards to comments on implementing the 180 rules, this is a place for them to play, not set-up to become an ultra competitive class.............

This may also give the opportunitiy for NASA cars that don;t slot into an SCCA class a place to run.

One area I always have to give NER race organizers credit for is their flexibility and creativity. (amoung other things! :023: )

Flyinglizard

12-17-2013, 10:44 AM

The class name is very good. Many wont run in a class called "crap can" . They just think too much of their cars and self image. ( whippersnappers).

Edit for Stephen, the nice thing about "Crapcan" is that it gets free coverage in "Grassroots" and comes up well in the search engines. It is a good tool for advancing economical racing . Of which we need more of to stay alive.

IMHO the themes and crap stuck on cars, is a self solving non problem. The goofy theme guys are "lemonheads" and counter serious racing . Those guys and cars wont show up.
CC has no themes. The only hanger-on is one Infiniti with a shark fin outline on the roof. They are also in FL. and have some interest running the SCCA races.
I have never run over or had anything fall off of a Chumpcar that was not a racing part, exhaust, splitter etc. That has been very seldom considering the amount of laps and cars.

I think that the most important part of the initial statement was about the driver ,"IT‐EZ is designed to provide a way for drivers to earn an SCCA racing license and race in regional ".
Is this an evolution of the CRX? Can Crap canners run with out a prior school? On a novice permit?
How can we get this into the SE area?
Well done. MM

pfcs

12-17-2013, 10:50 AM

Don't tread on me, you effete snobs!! I spit in your general direction!! (with heavy French accent)
I've been nursing a resentment since tech gave me a very hard time over "neat and clean" bodywork at the 94 ARRC and told me not to come back without pretty/straight/monochromatic!

WOW!! I thought I'd wait before expressing an opinion. It's deja vu all over again
and it's great.
How simply refreshing.
Simple, sensible, and pregnant with great possibility

StephenB

12-17-2013, 11:12 AM

The class name is very good. Many wont run in a class called "crap can" . They just think too much of their cars and self image. ( whippersnappers).

To be honest I always felt the name crapcan was snoby and kind of an insult. I am GLAD we did not follow in that footstep, its not inviting at all.

IMHO the themes and crap stuck on cars, is a self solving non problem. The goofy theme guys are "lemonheads" and counter serious racing . Those guys and cars wont show up.

In the NER area I don't think Chump is very big. Lemons has two well attended events at NHMS though so we need to cater to them a bit if we can. We should also try and get some of the NH circle track guys in as well. They actually have an endurance series that travels to Lee, Star, Manadnock and even races at loudon on the road course at least once a year. I met a guy at a test day last year...

I think that the most important part of the initial statement was about the driver ,"IT‐EZ is designed to provide a way for drivers to earn an SCCA racing license and race in regional ".
Is this an evolution of the CRX? Can Crap canners run with out a prior school? On a novice permit?

I am interested to hear more on this as well. :)

Stephen

Greg Amy

12-17-2013, 11:19 AM

To be honest I always felt the name crapcan was snoby and kind of an insult.

"ChumpCar"

"LeMons"

"Used Car Racing"

Are the terms only 'racist' if you're not of the same race....?

;)

GA, who knows that only a coon-ass can call a coon-ass a coon-ass...

georgethefierce

12-17-2013, 11:20 AM

In the NER area I don't think Chump is very big. Lemons has two well attended events at NHMS though so we need to cater to them a bit if we can. We should also try and get some of the NH circle track guys in as well. They actually have an endurance series that travels to Lee, Star, Manadnock and even races at loudon on the road course at least once a year. I met a guy at a test day last year...

it is a prime time to take advantage of this as a region, Lemons lost a NHMS date and Chump has a Thompson date...there will be lechumps looking for seat time locally...I think the series you are talking about is the Northeast Ministock Tour and while it would be great to try to pick them up most of those cars wont pass SCCA tech.

dickita15

12-17-2013, 11:59 AM

I think that the most important part of the initial statement was about the driver ,"IT‐EZ is designed to provide a way for drivers to earn an SCCA racing license and race in regional ".
Is this an evolution of the CRX? Can Crap canners run with out a prior school? On a novice permit?
How can we get this into the SE area?
Well done. MM

With regard to licensees, now this is important, this class is a club racing class. This is an opportunity to race with NER SCCA in cars that do not meet the normal rule set. You still need a license and all personal safety gear. This is because these cars run in regular club racing run groups.
If someone has a car available and no license they have a couple of choices. They can enter the NHMS driver school the Friday of Memorial Day weekend or if they have previous racing experience they can ask the NE Div licensing guy Pete Smith if he will waive the requirement. NER is also working on alternative schools on test days before other events though out the year.
I have to say the NER driver’s schools is a hell of a good value, lots of track time, good coaching and a ton of fun. If someone can do it I would say they will have a great time.
So take your Lechump and have some fun and end up with a SCCA license. Then you have lots of options.
The other program in the pipeline is a SCCA CRE or club racing experience. This is the pilot program that ran a few events last year at the Glen, St Louis, and others. CRE does not require a license but is a separate run group with 13/13 rules and performance limited to around ITA/SM levels. I tentatively have permission to run one at the August NHMS weekend. This requires less paperwork so it is a little easier to get into but because it is a separate rune group it is higher financial risk for the region to do. I strongly recommend if you have a car available and want to race do the IT EZ path as you will have a lot more opportunities.

as to what you can do in the SE talk it up to the people in the regions running races.

Abhi

12-17-2013, 12:12 PM

it is a prime time to take advantage of this as a region, Lemons lost a NHMS date and Chump has a Thompson date...there will be lechumps looking for seat time locally...I think the series you are talking about is the Northeast Ministock Tour and while it would be great to try to pick them up most of those cars wont pass SCCA tech.

I did the last Lemons race at NHMS. There were 142 entries. I could see at least a third of the cars fitting into this new category.

We could run them with the "Wings & Things" run group so they get the track to themselves. :D

Abhi

Ed Funk

12-17-2013, 01:05 PM

Apparently it's more socially acceptable to put your crap in a can than it is to put your shit in a box.

jwasilko

12-17-2013, 01:16 PM

Greg Amy

12-17-2013, 01:23 PM

I think Ed is not amused....

http://forum.purseblog.com/attachments/premier-designers/hermes/1831184-which-scarf-pointu-pochette-are-you-wearing-today-mckayla-not-impressed-template.jpg

dickita15

12-17-2013, 01:55 PM

I'd also suggest sticking to the street tire rule for the ITEZ/lemons class.

A less-sticky tire will help keep speeds down, which is one of the main reasons that Lemons/Chump requires it.

-jeff (who in theory has a Lemons car)

Guys this is easy if we 5 or 6 guys who show up with street tires and want a street tire class I will work to get it for you. First I have to prove to the powers to be that this is a good idea and that you all are not yahoos who are going to crash into Ed.

Flyinglizard

12-17-2013, 02:17 PM

Street tires please. This would open the door to the IT cars that want to double dip, the NASA IT cars with lexan widows, the Chupers that are setuo for ST.

and of course for ED that must from here on, race on street tires, with a piece of TP inside the car.

mossaidis

12-17-2013, 02:20 PM

Greg Amy

12-17-2013, 02:27 PM

Street tires please. This would open the door to the IT cars that want to double dip, the NASA IT cars with lexan widows, the Chupers that are setuo for ST.
There's nothing in the proposed ITEZ regs that would stop any of that.

Please stop with the street tire religion. Pretty please? All of about TWO of you have even put your money where your mouth is and run them in any SCCA race. The rest of you have demonstrated absolutely nothing other than your religion's capability of being annoying as hell about this issue.

- GA

ShelbyRacer

12-17-2013, 02:28 PM

Guys this is easy if we 5 or 6 guys who show up with street tires and want a street tire class I will work to get it for you. First I have to prove to the powers to be that this is a good idea and that you all are not yahoos who are going to crash into Ed.

If I *do* run street tires, am I *allowed* to crash into Ed?

tom91ita

12-17-2013, 02:29 PM

snip.........I have never run over or had anything fall off of a Chumpcar that was not a racing part, exhaust, splitter etc. That has been very seldom considering the amount of laps and cars.

I think that the most important part of the initial statement was about the driver ,"IT‐EZ is designed to provide a way for drivers to earn an SCCA racing license and race in regional ".
Is this an evolution of the CRX? Can Crap canners run with out a prior school? On a novice permit?
How can we get this into the SE area?
Well done. MM

i have had more "issues" running with Prod cars at National/Major events with oil being dumped on the track. i think they should be referred to as "Oil Can" racing and subject to banning.

regarding licensing, i know of at least one fellow LeMons racer that applied for and got a full license (not a novice license) based on his LeMons racing, his status as a Honda event instructor and recommendations from SCCA driver/members. he went the alternate licensing route through Atlanta region and went to IT Fest this past year and loved it.

it is my understanding that without the SCCA member recommendation, he would have received a Novice permit. all i know is that with his ~100 track days as a driver and instructor and his ~ 12 hours of actual wheel to wheel LeMons racing, his level of experience vastly exceeded mine (two classic driver school weekends) prior to going wheel to whell in SCCA.

georgethefierce

12-17-2013, 02:38 PM

First I have to prove to the powers to be that this is a good idea and that you all are not yahoos who are going to crash into Ed.

who's gonna keep Ed from crashing into them!!?

Terry Hanushek

12-17-2013, 02:41 PM

It seems like the substantial part of the target audience is ChumpCar and LeMons competitors. Since both groups are already on 180 TW tires, it would make sense to include those tires as part of the class rules. LeChumpers already have experience with these street tires and probably an inventory of Rivals or Direzzas. Not having a tire rule will force them to go the rcomp route to be competitive -- and if they are racing they will want to be competitive. This seems to be more a barrier to entry than a 180 TW tire rule.

Terry

dickita15

12-17-2013, 02:42 PM

i have had more "issues" running with Prod cars at National/Major events with oil being dumped on the track. i think they should be referred to as "Oil Can" racing and subject to banning.

that is funny. A friend of mine who runs Spec Racer at the Glen where they run together refers to that inevitable mid race full course yellow as British Half Time.

Greg Amy

12-17-2013, 02:43 PM

...it would make sense to include those tires as part of the class rules...
....and would exclude 100% of all other vehicles currently within SCCA from participating in that class (i.e., double dippers). - GA

StephenB

12-17-2013, 03:11 PM

There's nothing in the proposed ITEZ regs that would stop any of that.

Please stop with the street tire religion. Pretty please? All of about TWO of you have even put your money where your mouth is and run them in any SCCA race. The rest of you have demonstrated absolutely nothing other than your religion's capability of being annoying as hell about this issue.

- GA

Agree, I also think that allowing R-comps might actually be a good thing. I bet smarty would give away used tires for free if you pay him to mount them...

Stephen

Greg Amy

12-17-2013, 03:25 PM

I bet smarty would give away used tires for free if you pay him to mount them...
Smarty gives away used tires for free...period. Maybe beer if he doesn't like you. He has to pay to load, unload, and discard them.

The only times I've seen him charge for tires is when the Spec Miata "high-falutin' crowd" decides that three heat cycles are enough to completely destroy Hoosiers. And that's very, very, very rare in Regional racing (all he covers). - GA

Edit: Smarty's favorite event is the Fall one where all the Cub Scouts come down from the mountain and want a free race tire. He's all about making those go away....free.

StephenB

12-17-2013, 04:07 PM

I know, I just didn't want to post "for" him. I think we should let people know they could potentially get free ones so they can give racing tires a try. Used or not they will still see (lap times) and feel a difference.

Stephen

tom91ita

12-17-2013, 04:17 PM

Agree, I also think that allowing R-comps might actually be a good thing. I bet smarty would give away used tires for free if you pay him to mount them...

Stephen

i too think that the potential of using "race" tires is a good thing. let them see how much more fun/competitive R tires can be if they want.

i applaud the effort of getting non SCCA types SCCA licenses and running with at SCCA events. if they try purple crack and get hooked, so much the better.

ner88

12-17-2013, 04:53 PM

"IT‐EZ competition is designed as a “fun run” class, without any promise of intent of performance equitability."

Run on Snow tires! No one cares!:shrug:

Greg Amy

12-17-2013, 05:08 PM

"IT‐EZ competition is designed as a “fun run” class, without any promise of intent of performance equitability."

Run on Snow tires! No one cares!:shrug:
No, they want a MANDATE that everyone HAS to run on those tires in "EZ".

Sorry, "EZ" is run whatcha brung...including tires. If someone wants to buy Hoosiers for that class, I'm pretty confident they'll get laughed at. Hysterically. - GA

mossaidis

12-17-2013, 05:27 PM

that is funny. A friend of mine who runs Spec Racer at the Glen where they run together refers to that inevitable mid race full course yellow as British Half Time.

LMAO!!

I love the off-season. I love the off-season. I love the off-season.

Now, who is placing bets on where and when Jeff Lawton's next SCCA will be? :biggrinsanta:

Dano77

12-17-2013, 06:08 PM

My best un educated guess is.

Lime Rock in a used IT7 car that he found under a rock. He will sel the Miata and pocket 10,000 Pesos in the deal.

Or he might show up at Thompson.

Only the Shadow Knows

Flyinglizard

12-17-2013, 10:46 PM

GA, please explain the logic of ; inviting a successful class to come and race with SCCA and then changing one costly parameter of that class, one that is a large part responsible for that success.
Copy success, dont EFit up.

I see no reason to repeat past mistakes. Keep it simple and cheap.
The R tires have no good rewards other than a little G load. You also slide through the grass faster and hit the wall harder. Please tell me one benefit of R tires other than maybe you get them for free.
It would make the most sense to start this class on the 20 tires that most Chumpemons have in the garage . Once the horse is out of the barn, you cant go back. ( You could loosen the rule up later to meet demand) but once some new guy's wife buys him a set of Hoes. it 's over.
Chumps spend more on fuel than tires!!
There are maybe 12-15 "R tire" classes that are already weak. Allowing R tires to this class would just add to the weakness. The R guys can run someplace else.
Having a dedicated group on streets makes a lot of sense.
180 Tires would indeed allow double dipping for the rest of the IT cars and some of the Prod cars. 400$ per set of tires is like free for most of you. One set of wheels and tires are about the same $ as 4 Hoes and can last 50 sessions.

Chumps went Chump for a few reasons. Hassle, cost, track time.
You comment makes no sense and is rude.
MM

Knestis

12-17-2013, 11:12 PM

Yeah, sorry, guys - I'm totally drinking the street tire koolaid on this one.

(And yes, I have raced on them, so nyah!)

The primary purpose of the idea is to capture the Chump/Lemons crowd. Even if it's framed as a "fun run" class initially, you KNOW it's a racing class and racers gonna race - particularly if it catches on even a little. Messing up a key aspect of what makes those formulae work seems like a bad idea. The class can't be everything to everyone so there's no sense dorking up a key aspect of the draw for the target market.

Unless I misunderstand and the class is really supposed to target existing SCCA class-eligible cars...?

K

Greg Amy

12-17-2013, 11:24 PM

GA, please explain the logic of ; inviting a successful class to come and race with SCCA and then changing one costly parameter of that class...

Easy:

1) It's not inviting "a" class, it's inviting a category - a mindset - of significantly disparate vehicles from multiple, disparate, disorganized "organizations". NER is inviting "crapcan" cars to come play in, and experience, a different culture, and not to a specific set of regs from any specific other orgs; and

2) They're not changing any costly parameter; they're saying "come run with us, whatever your configuration, whatever you got, as long as it meets our minimum safety regulations."

Herein lies the major difference between how you see this and how I see this (and this is *NOT* a personal attack): you see possibilities of competition, I see possibilities of access. You're thinking in terms of how you can be competitive in a particular class at a minimum of cost; I'm seeing how we can get someone who's not raced with SCCA to come race with SCCA.

And you can race on street tires if you want to. We don't care. Just give everyone else the right to choose what they want to do, too.

A lot of people just gloss right over that whole "no guarantee of competitiveness" thing (the whole basic concept of Improved Touring - the original crapcan series back in 1984!). Some will see that and think "oh cool, a place to play" while others see that and think "oh good, I can be competitive 'cause no one else will try to be". When it comes to ITEZ, I'm the former ("hey, go play and have fun") and you're the latter ("I'm'a gonna win that race!") I could be wrong, but I suggest that ITEZ's intent is "go play" and that means "by whatever means you choose to do, but keep in mind someone else is gonna spend more money than you".

THIS is why I keep teasing you about the "jumping the shark" thing with crapcan racing. It's gone beyond the "let's go have fun stage" and is well past the "I'm'a gonna win that race!" stage. Right now, NER SCCA is all about "go play". That may change later, but for now...

Greg

P.S., Non sequitor, I'm still trying to decide what to do about Sebring and PBR - still trying to find a hitchhike space for my Integra - and I'd really like to get a couple STL finishes under my belt. If you have a car that'll run two weekends without issue, might need to meet up.

RSTPerformance

12-18-2013, 01:39 AM

Anyone want to run an ex ITB VW schirocco? I know where you can get one cheep... I think all it needs a front shock, transmission and some safety stuff like belts. If you are interested contact me!

Raymond Blethen
603-738-6686

JLawton

12-18-2013, 08:38 AM

LMAO!!

Now, who is placing bets on where and when Jeff Lawton's next SCCA will be? :biggrinsanta:

???

Easy:

1) It's not inviting "a" class, it's inviting a category - a mindset - of significantly disparate vehicles from multiple, disparate, disorganized "organizations".

Yes!!

Making street tires mandatory so everyone is competitive makes no sense. You've got a '79 Ford LTD with a 250K suspension running against forced induction '93 Miata............ Is being on street tires going to make that equal??? :blink:

Run what ya brung............

And everyone forgets the first page of the IT rules in the GCR: No guarantee of competitiveness...........

gran racing

12-18-2013, 09:15 AM

The point of this, I believe, isn't to be a catch-all to other existing SCCA racecars. We have enough of those already. I too feel this should be on street tires. Get a lot of complaints, open it up. Much easier to do than the opposite.

It's not necessarily about being competitive. When I was running an under prepped car, I knew that I wasn't going to be near the front. I was okay with that. But if the street tire deal can make cars run a bit closer and encourages the less expensive culture, great!

If the goal is to attract some chump cars, why not ask they what they'd prefer? Is there a place where many potential candidates could be reached other than the ChumpCar forum?

Greg Amy

12-18-2013, 09:47 AM

The point of this, I believe, isn't to be a catch-all to other existing SCCA racecars. We have enough of those already.
I disagree, Dave; it's most assuredly intended to be a catch-all for cars that cannot fit anywhere else. A lot of these crapcan cars simply will not fit into anything else, especially given non-standard modifications. I know this because it has been a point of discussion among some hierarchy for some time on how to incorporate "crapcan" racing into the stodgy SCCA structure.

Couple this to the whole Racing Experience program and a street tire "mandate" is completely misplaced within the philosophy and intent of these programs, which are all about everything but mandates; they're the anti-mandates.

- GA

Flyinglizard

12-18-2013, 12:32 PM

Chumpemons has very few rules. One is safety the other is tires.
Racing is all about applied HP. If you are not matted on the gas , the 400Hp does you no good. Shitty tires wont let you mat the pedal as soon.
Low grip tires do even up the pack by limiting applied HP.. both accelerating and stopping. The big power cars take a much longer time to get past a faster exiting lighter car. Shitty tires also stop longer but the overall pack is pretty similar. Lower grip= better racing for a lot of reasons. Spring rates are lower, shocks less important, blah blah ..
More grip simply cost more to run, brakes, fuel, tires, suspension all cost more at higher G loads.
The extreme example of this is ice racing where many cars are door to door for many laps with a huge sample of HP levels.

As noted if the 180TW is not popular, it is easy to change. But very hard to change to a 180 Rule if anyone has R tires.

Every venue that has gone to a faster, more expensive tire has seen a decrease in racers. (SM has new well funded blood) but many SM guys are also running STL or EP to get away from the crack.

AS far as SCCA Chumpemons,promotion goes. You will get banned from the CC forum for discussing any other venue. FB is pretty good, "Grassroots" is best. Print ad in Road and track, grassroots. a nice little PR sent someplaces.

The real issue I see is that we have very few races with any lead time to get the word out. CC post their schedule on their web site in NOV. for the next year.
I was trying to gather some dates but you have to look all over the net to find any SCCA dates.

Compare the Chumpcar site to any site that SCCA has. Right on the home page is the schedule for all to see. There is no easy access to our SCCA schedule.
We need a "SCCA Touring Car"( or EZ Touring car") home site that is simple with 10 doors or less, with a nationwide schedule on the front page. A 1 click page for the overview of our racing program.
I think that each category should have it's own official site, promoting their own agenda. Prod, GT, Touring, EZTC?
WE have so many people/regions involved it just gets sloppy to find anything. Look at the NASA 25 hr? good coverage , big ads.

When I posted my "crap can rules". My hits went to over 100 per day on that page. Why? google up "crapcan racing". Now google up IT racing. next try IT EZ ,
Google "FWD racing".
"SCCA touring car" comes up with terry 's jersey challenge.
You will see why I push for the "crapcan" title , in spite of the down sides to it.

"EZ Touring Car" by SCCA. might be good.

Google is my friend.
FB page might help

WE need google to hit upon a easy to navigate site. We need a nationwide schedule and compatible rules with other sanctions for EZ cross over.

GA ,I will look in the barn for the 300TW tires for the STL car.
Raymond. I am very interested in the Rocco. I called you.
MM

Mike Ogren/ ProtechRacing
1220 Broad St.-US 41
Masaryktown,FL. 34604
352/428/8983
www.fwdracingguide.com

dickita15

12-18-2013, 01:02 PM

Greg is right (god did I just say that). ITEZ is a catch all class. There is absolutely no guarantee of competitiveness. And Dave the only other one we have up here at this prep level is ITE which is very fast and runs with big bore.
IT EZ is an opportunity for LeChump and other orphans to race with NER SCCA. I have no idea how many if any LeChumpers want to race with us. Some say they are not interested in a sprint format. If we actually have a LeChump level cars show up it will be easy to create a class for them but first we need to PROVE that there is a demand.
NER has a pretty good series in 2014. 6 weekends, three tracks, it is going to be a good place to race.
Dave and Mike you both said put the cars of street tires now and it will be easy to change later. Are you guys on crack? Have you not met SCCA? All rule sets get more restrictive as a class matures. Adding a tire rule will be easy (or more likely adding a street tire class) if there is demand. Removing a restriction from the rules shakes the club at its very foundation.
So stop arguing. The rules do not have a street tire restriction. If you want one stop arguing on the internet and show up with a crap box at our events. I will not even consider a street tire class unless racers prove a little demand.

ITC69

12-18-2013, 01:45 PM

mossaidis

12-18-2013, 01:48 PM

ITC69 - Do you mean "Fast Reply"? Random post btw.

Dick, think of the SCCA as a party host who organizes crack parties at various crack houses where crack addicts show up with their devices, buy crack from a dealer (smarty) and have at it. Before new addicts show up and partake, we'll need to advertise a little and do some pushing.

What's the plan?

webhound

12-18-2013, 02:27 PM

I have emailed this thread to the new Area 12 Director; Chief Steward for the Roebling Road Driver's School, and the new Atlanta Region RE, with a suggestion that the SEDIV adopt the NER's IT-EZ class. I'm only one voice out in the wilderness, so if you are interested in seeing this happen in SEDIV add your voice to the proposal by contacting your Area Director, RE, etc.

I think that Atlanta already has something like this with their ITX class. Not sure all the details, as it's not really my place to know. But what I do know is that a couple of cars have shown up for the past couple years, including the ARRC, to run this class. The guys that do it have been having a lot of fun. The one team has a couple past ARRC winners on it, then they have another team mate or two multi-dip the car in different races and the PDX. That's sort of the idea behind the Chump cars, they get used among a team. Whether it's in sprints or enduros, I think the plan is sound.

My car is sort of on the border between an IT car and a Chump, and I've run it in both venues. My fun also comes from sharing it with friends. It also runs on the ice in winter and the occasional autocross, and almost always has a different guest driver or three.

As Mickey is alluding to, I think it would be a good idea to try to advertise this a little. Even if it's just banners on the race cars like what Chip was pitching. When the cars move around to different venues, as mine does, it may generate some interest.

I don't care about the tires at the end of the day. Run what you want. If they are Chump cars, they will want to stay on streets probably, just because the Chumpy setup will be better on the lower grip tires. If not, then they'll run what they had.

Will

dickita15

12-18-2013, 02:34 PM

What's the plan?

the plan is to come up with a catch all class that welcomes alternate prep cars to race with NER SCCA and start a conversation on a few web boards hoping that those of you who are younger and more social media savvy than I will talk about it and some cars will show up and find out we have fun.

Then depending on what kind of cars show up if any see if we need to do some additional classing to make them want to come back.

so far I am on Plan

gran racing

12-19-2013, 09:08 AM

catch-all to other existing SCCA racecars.
What I had really said was for car with current log books that have a home, I didn't feel SCCA should take into consideration those cars when developing the rules. As you said, it's about the crapcan type cars.
There have been enough instances where rules are opened up rather than vice versa. Since we're talking IT, a rather significant one was the ECU. Some might aruge it was really the washer bottle though.
I've always thought it's easier to give people something more in the future than take it away. Oh well.

zchris

12-19-2013, 11:08 AM

I have built a fair number of cages for the Chump/Lemons guys as of late. One recent one is a couple of local to me guys. Very nice guys. But there view on how to make a fast lap is very different from your average club racer. They are putting a V6 that they hope to make 350hp in a under 2000lb MR2. And they feel its all about straight line speed. Now if you mix this type of thinking in with your regular IT momentum type cars, it may not end well. And I cannot imagine with all the "we have to many classes/race group thinking, that you would want to add another race group to accomodate this class. I know thinking "outside the box" to attract more(younger) racers is the goal and its a good concept, but..... Oh and a the fact that most of the guys I have worked with are digruntled ex club racers does not bode well for them coming our way. But time will tell and I hope it helps the club. God knows are numbers are dropping fast.
Chris

gran racing

12-19-2013, 11:13 AM

ITC69

12-19-2013, 11:56 AM

[QUOTE=mossaidis;352362]ITC69 - Do you mean "Fast Reply"? Random post btw.

woops, was caused by fat fingering of keyboard:(
comment was deleted - please see my other comment.

dickita15

12-19-2013, 01:53 PM

dickita15

12-19-2013, 01:56 PM

Dick or others involved in this -

I realize this is an NER region deal. Will other regions who host races at tracks within the NER owned tracks also allow this regional class as well? Many (most?) racers never really care or think all that much which region is hosting the event at the tracks within that region.

Well you are only describing two events. Mo Hud is working with NER at Thompson and I am sure they will run our classes. As to the Narrc off the New York does in October at Lime Rock I have no idea, I have not spoken to them, but they have 10 months to decide.

Dano77

12-19-2013, 05:25 PM

georgethefierce

12-19-2013, 05:30 PM

could also be a nice place for IT7's to double dip :shrug:

Dano77

12-19-2013, 05:44 PM

Exactly!!!!!!!!

But I already have a Crap Can with Class.

Greg Amy

12-19-2013, 05:55 PM

could also be a nice place for IT7's to double dip :shrug:
"I know we have softened on the whole appearance thing for the ITEZ cars, but those over there are just way out of bounds. We have to maintain some acceptable level of standards!"

"That's the IT7 crowd, sir."

dtanthon

12-19-2013, 06:00 PM

IMPROVED TOURING ENDURO (Class designation = ITE)
The purpose of the ITE class is to allow vehicles from other professional race
Series, Pro-Rally, Showroom Stock (those not otherwise eligible for IT or SS) and equivalent marquee club classes to compete at a regional level. No guarantee of competitiveness or equality is expressed or implied.
To that end, the ITE rules and guidelines are that ALL VEHICLES MUST:
- Meet (at minimum) current Improved Touring safety specifications.
- Run DOT approved street radials; tire brand is free. However, wheel and tire Specifications must be per the original series rules. Original series (except Pro-Rally) must have run exclusively on DOT tires.
- Compete in their declared series specification, except for tire brand & modifications, to meet SCCA safety specs.
- Display current SCCA Club racing decals; all other sanctioning bodies' Identification must be removed or covered.
- Posses an SCCA (only) vehicle logbook and roll cage number.
- Meet the current SCCA sound requirements.
ALL COMPETITORS MUST conform to current SCCA General Competition Rules.
ALL ENTRANTS MUST have in their possession, and available to tech personnel or the Chief Steward, the "Series Rulebooks and specification sheets" (IMSA Rulebook, SCCA Pro-Racing rulebook, Pro-Rally rulebook, etc.) and an official manufacturer’s shop manual(s) to authenticate the vehicle in its state / condition of preparation.

Greg Amy

12-19-2013, 06:05 PM

The purpose of the ITE class is to allow vehicles from other professional race series, Pro-Rally, Showroom Stock (those not otherwise eligible for IT or SS) and equivalent marquee club classes to compete at a regional level.
That right there kinda kills off the crapcan cars.... ;)

Besides, ITE is typically dropped into the biger bore groups, such as AS, STU/STO, etc. not really appropriate for the class of cars we're talking about. - GA

dickita15

12-19-2013, 06:54 PM

So Ive been reading this and am kind of perplexed. Where does it say its for Lemons and Chump cars only????

Seems to me there are plenty of other organizations that have cars that will meet the SCCA Safty and not quite fit other classes. BMWCCA, PCA, SCCNH,New England Hillclimb Association, Rally America, NASA Performance Touring, EMRA ST.

We dont want to say "Hey Subaru Rally Team USA, you should call Team ONiel and bring some 2wd rally cars and get the Hillclimb BMWs to show up and dont forget the NASA/EMRA Guys too and get some Wheel To wheel racing and Tarmac Practice" Oh wait you need 180tw Dunlopstonegoodriches or you cant run. This is a class for Crap Cans. Your not invited.

Or did I read the rule wrong and its not a class for Cars that don't fit into any individual SCCA class but meet SCCA Safety and dont fit in the Fast Group. Its really a class for Lechump cars only and the rules are misleading.

Just food for thought, there are other organizations that would have cars for this as well.

well that is the whole point. the conversation is focused on LeChump type cars but the reason this got traction is we see cars now and they that are basically IT cars but not really legal. With our current rules you either have to put them in ITE which as said runs with bog bore or look the other way about legality.

hence IT EZ is born. if you show up with an ITB cars with the wrong wheels no problem, if you show up with a car with a fiberglass hood, no problem we have a place to put you that it is a safe group to race. So as long as we are doing this why not open it up to other cars that also might want race at our great events. Now we have a way.

so lets day a bunch of folks show up and run in this class that are of similar prep and want fairer racing. well that is easy. we have already demonstrated to the old guard that the cars and drivers are safe, we can easily create a class.

so that is the deal. you and five of your buddies have an idea for a great new rule set, NER is giving you a place to come and race your cars and if you all are as smart as you think you are and people like your idea you get your own class just like you want it.

now get out in the garage and build your car.

tom91ita

12-19-2013, 07:10 PM

"I know we have softened on the whole appearance thing for the ITEZ cars, but those over there are just way out of bounds. We have to maintain some acceptable level of standards!"

"That's the IT7 crowd, sir."

LOL!

Dick, I think you are doing this exactly right. There are also quite a few HPDE type cars that folks have built that have engine swaps etc.

and you guys are providing them a place/class to race and experience SCCA and it is up to the rest of us at the rack to make the experience worth returning to.

dickita15

12-19-2013, 08:03 PM

LOL!

Dick, I think you are doing this exactly right. There are also quite a few HPDE type cars that folks have built that have engine swaps etc.

and you guys are providing them a place/class to race and experience SCCA and it is up to the rest of us at the rack to make the experience worth returning to.

Amen Brother Tom

Flyinglizard

12-20-2013, 11:13 AM

The ITEZ rule is the same as the ITE rule. ??
Last years NE ITE winner was the Turbo VW?? Why not run the R cars in the ITE class designation and the 180 cars in the ITEZ class , same group? Solves all of our issues.. And keeps the ITEZ inside of the rule set for the cars interested. The other (R tire) double dippers can simply run ITE in the same group and get another race.

FOR SCCA to gain some of the orphan cars, we need to address this market with a big picture plan. Somewhat similar to the Chumpemons marketing.
We need some sort of nationwide rules agreement. The 180 tires and SCCA safety were the standard minimum parameters. The engine size or power is used some places depending on local interest and cars.

We need a " ITEZ coordinator" to take all of this data and post it on a site that "Google" can find.

We need to have a nationwide schedule posted in an easy access fashion . dedicated website to the ITEZ??

We need a PR person to put out PR to relative points of interest. face Book, "Grassroots", " Racer" etc. With lead time!!
Not 60days.

Face it , posting " we want Chumpcars" on the SCCA site and in the SCCA regional papers, just bites us in the ass. ( many comments drive away outsiders).

We need to find the demographic and hit it. The few Chumps that read these boards are already SCCA memebers. (waste of time as is most of this.)
Doing little blurbs here and there , waste of time.

How can one get all of the races, rules, etc and post them in one place?

Greg Amy

12-20-2013, 12:17 PM

I give up.

JLawton

12-20-2013, 12:36 PM

Dick, I appreciate all the effort you have put into this. Fortunately I know you have a thick skin and wont take all of this personally..........

georgethefierce

12-20-2013, 12:44 PM

i give up.

:026:

mossaidis

12-20-2013, 01:01 PM

teehee

gran racing

12-20-2013, 01:11 PM

It's certainly not up to Dick but I do agree it'll need som exposure if anything is going to come from it. This is what I was planning on posting on my site with a couple of pictures of cars that would fit. Only part I wasn't sure about is the section related to the brakes and suspension where it listed ChumpCar and not Lemons. I added Lemons in it. Maybe that's not correct but whatever.

Title: New SCCA Race Class with Minimal Cost and Preparation

Improved Touring – EZ

The purpose of IT‐EZ is to be an SCCA regional class where car preparation can be kept to a minimum. Cars that are built using ChumpCar or Lemons rules are welcome. As opposed to any other class of SCCA road racing, IT‐EZ competition is designed as a “fun run” class, without any promise or intent of performance equitability. IT‐EZ is designed to provide a way for drivers to earn an SCCA racing license and race in regional competition, with the absolute lowest cost vehicle. In no way will any waivers be considered or granted in areas regarding safety of the vehicle or driver.

IT‐EZ vehicles may race with prior accident damage, as long as that prior damage does not create a danger to the driver of that vehicle or fellow competitors.

Non‐functional additions to vehicles, whose primary purpose is to express a creativity theme, are allowed only if do not create a potential safety hazard to the driver or fellow competitors.

IT‐EZ Eligible Vehicles

Must be a “mass produced” gas or diesel powered, four wheel passenger car.

Minimum weight of 1,800 pounds and a maximum weight of 4,000 pounds and a production‐based engine.

Tires must conform to applicable Improved Touring rules, i.e., must be DOT rated tires, and sizes must be consistent with allowable dimensions per the GCR. 190 wear‐dated street tires are not mandated, but they may be used if the racer prefers.

Preparation regarding brakes, suspension, and engine must meet SCCA Improved Touring, ChumpCar, or Lemons rules.

Currently this is being introduced in SCCA’s New England Region, but several other regions are also moving forward with this or similar initiatives. If you are interested in seeing this done in regions where you want to race, please contact the Regional Executive and Race Chair / Competition Director of your SCCA region. To find your region, click here. http://www.scca.com/about/?cid=44433 (http://www.scca.com/about/?cid=44433)

Add link to the Improved Touring Rules
Include links to ChumpCar and Lemons rules?

Flyinglizard

12-20-2013, 01:37 PM

Dave, The TW is 180 not 190. makes a big difference.

How many of you have actually raced or seen a Chumpemons event?

While you guys are laughing;
Some other considerations for success; We could use a "welcome committee " Maybe the RE, maybe a few of the IT pole sitters. to walk around and say hi to the new guys or out of region guys. give a few track pointers etc, bleed the brakes whatever.
A large part of the SCCA problem is attitude. We should do our best to improve the perception, and make new guys feel truly welcome. All of us could be a part of this.

Chumpemons also flourishes in large part do to track timeand lack of sit around time.. It would be wise to listen to the racers and get a feel for splitting the groups into one day each.

gran racing

12-20-2013, 02:21 PM

Dave, The TW is 180 not 190. makes a big difference.

I didn't write it and since tires are totally open, it really doesn't matter anyways.

I've raced with Chump at Nelson. I believe that wasn't a good representation of how their events typically go. BIGGEST crash fest I've ever seen. They even stopped it mid day to have a meeting to get drivers in shape.

dickita15

12-20-2013, 03:10 PM

This is what I was planning on posting on my site with a couple of pictures of cars that would fit. Only part I wasn't sure about is the section related to the brakes and suspension where it listed ChumpCar and not Lemons. I added Lemons in it. Maybe that's not correct but whatever.

Thank you Dave, you certainly have my blessing.

gran racing

12-20-2013, 04:04 PM

Just posted it in the featured articles section of the Go Ahead - Take the Wheel site linked here (http://goaheadtakethewheel.com/rwrt/new-scca-race-class-with-minimal-cost-and-preparation/).

I'd love to see this grow well beyond the New England Region and few other regions that are doing something similar. Only way to do that is to make people aware it exists.

If you have a Facebook account, take a minute to go to that article and share it with your friends. Post a link to it on forums. (I don't get paid per visitor or anything like that. I do want to get more people involved in SCCA racing though.) I also linked people back to this forum to dicuss it further.

Mike - just for you, I even changed the tire wear rating to 180. :)

Here's the URL for the link: http://goaheadtakethewheel.com/rwrt/new-scca-race-class-with-minimal-cost-and-preparation/

georgethefierce

12-20-2013, 04:21 PM

took all of about 30 seconds before potential candidates commented on the book of faces....let's hope this pays off :023:

gran racing

12-20-2013, 04:26 PM

Nice!!!

jumbojimbo

12-20-2013, 07:30 PM

First question I got asked: What dates are the races? I don't seem to be able to answer that.

mossaidis

12-20-2013, 07:51 PM

I reposted to Mohud SCCA FB site, SCCA members FB site, Patroon BMWCCA and NARRC FB sites. Thank you both.

dickita15

12-20-2013, 08:01 PM

First question I got asked: What dates are the races? I don't seem to be able to answer that.
NER SCCA 2014 Race Schedule

May 23, 24,&25 NHMS NERRC Triple
23rd is a NER test day and driver's school

June 20&21 Lime Rock Park NARRC/NERRC double

July 11, 12 &13 Thompson Speedway Motorsports Park NERRC double
11th is a NER test day

August 9 & 10 NHMS “ Race Against Leukemia” NERRC Triple
Club Race Experience

September 6 & 7 NHMS NERRC triple

October 3, 4 & 5 Thompson NERRC Triple
3rd is a NER test day

ner88

12-21-2013, 11:57 AM

I give up.

LOL :dead_horse:

vicktorvolpe

12-28-2013, 09:40 PM

getting folks into racing is good.

I hate to sound like a willie nillie but one safety concern.....the roll cage in my spec miata (that I run in SM2 as well) was designed by rules to be hit by other spec miatas. I actually went with .120 thick in case I got hit by a BMW in a NASA race.

What happens if I get hit by a 3500 lb smokey and the bandit camaro?

Also Limerock could get to be a very busy place in what will be a very "mixed class" scenario. Not quite as extreme as how ALMS ran there, but pretty busy. Brings a whole new level of strategy to trying to lap/pass people in the downhill.

It's definitely going to be a "learn as we go" process, but one of the nice things about this is I have no doubt people like Dick or Greg will change the rules/cars in run groups on the fly to make sure things are better for all involved.

Flyinglizard

01-03-2014, 11:10 AM

Most F bods are under 3000# RTR.
The big cars wont show up. The IT style cars may.
The EX 1.6 SM cars may.
The car to car interaction has been surprising low damage. I think that the higher closing speeds reduces the hard car to car racing and gives more room to avoid stopped cars. The harder tires also helps the spinners to slip further offline.
All of the cages MOL have done a good job.
The distance from driver to cage bars is the biggest safety margin. Any Miata cage with 3 door bars into the door panel and sil plates will be fine IMHO.
The door opening is small , the bars are short, plenty of lateral crush value IMHO. Use the good padding on the tubes.

FWIW; Cages; Here is our crush box pic;http://www.ogren-engineering.com/patent-pending-and-inventions.html
MM

slopok

01-08-2014, 10:29 AM

Dick it's all about the track time that you don't get in scca compared with these other series. Lime Rock has an event this year that will be 8hrs long. How do you get that at Lime Rock with scca and all the classes ? What is the scca expierence that everyone is talking about ? sitting , waiting for your 15 min session to happen and then race for 20 min. How do you sell the lack of track to to these people ?

Knestis

01-08-2014, 11:20 AM

This proposal isn't trying to address that need. There's been interest expressed by folks wanting to sprint race their LeMons/Chump cars; NER is trying to find a way to help that happen.

K

georgethefierce

01-08-2014, 11:22 AM

Knestis

01-08-2014, 11:28 AM

LOL - If you haven't tried the latter, you should. It's NOT "real racing" but it can be a hell of a lot of fun.

K

ner88

01-08-2014, 11:33 AM

georgethefierce

01-08-2014, 11:35 AM

LOL - If you haven't tried the latter, you should. It's NOT "real racing" but it can be a hell of a lot of fun.

K

Yep, I ran lemons, I enjoyed it.

slopok

01-08-2014, 12:04 PM

one very important thing we(NER) do is give everyone an opportunity to play.
So, whether you drive a FV, GT1 or IT car, you will get track time.
If we were to run...say a Miata only event we could give you 8 hours of track time as well........:shrug: but....how much are you willing to pay :D

Entry fee at Lime Rock for 8 hrs is $500. How much is a regional costing this year at that track ? I guess it all depends on what someone is looking to get out of the sport.

I competed in the 24hr. at VIR in August in a miata. Cost of rental $700 everything included, 5 drivers, I drove 10.5 hrs (race) & 1hr practice. To rent a car is very cost effective. Finished top 20, in a 100 car field. We completed all 24 hrs with no damage or breakage. Never got hit or hit another car. Like I said some like sprints and some enduros

slopok

01-08-2014, 12:07 PM

This proposal isn't trying to address that need. There's been interest expressed by folks wanting to sprint race their LeMons/Chump cars; NER is trying to find a way to help that happen.

K

Chump Car does have a sprint series & drifting.

gran racing

01-08-2014, 01:46 PM

Entry fee at Lime Rock for 8 hrs is $500.

Where is this? There's a new enduro series which will be hosting an event at LRP in March (bleh!) which the entry fee will be $1,500 for 9 hours.

Cost of rental $700 everything included, 5 drivers, I drove 10.5 hrs (race) & 1hr practice.

Name of rental? That's insane. Sign me up!

You drove 10.5 hours and others only a total of about 3?

Flyinglizard

01-08-2014, 02:23 PM

http://www.chumpcar.com/endurance/events.php

WGI, May 23-25, 6-8-6 hrs for 1300$
LRP, July 21, 8hr @ 500$
Typical rental is $700-900 per driver with 2 stints per race.

Our Nissan 300 is 900, the Golf is 800.
( Idont run the Turbo anymore for the races just for track days :)

georgethefierce

01-08-2014, 02:30 PM

Where is this? There's a new enduro series which will be hosting an event at LRP in March (bleh!) which the entry fee will be $1,500 for 9 hours.

Name of rental? That's insane. Sign me up!

You drove 10.5 hours and others only a total of about 3?

10.5 has to be for the whole car....I got (2) 2 hour stints in a rental for around $700 at a Lemons race...

gran racing

01-08-2014, 03:09 PM

He said it was for the VIR 24 hr enduro.

Too bad the Glen event doesn't during the evening. I'd be all over that.

That LRP event is temping to do just as a test and tune event. What's the max stint a person can do? Although with the number of cars probably being entered and how short LRP is, it'll probably just be one major traffic jam?

Flyinglizard

01-08-2014, 03:30 PM

The Chumpcar races have been very "racable" and not overly busy after the first hour or so.
Put yourself in smart places and it goes pretty well.
I have good faith in The eastern Guy, Mike Chisek,( and crew), to run a good race.

I dont remember anyone running WGI in the dark.
Might be a sound thing or Nascar deal .
Daytona, Road Atlanta and many more run dark. The younger drivers can pick up extra stints in the dark and rain as us old critters cant see .
Regardless; it is a pretty good deal and tough to compete with.

SCCA has to have a good product , enjoyable and fill a market gap.

Flyinglizard

01-08-2014, 04:03 PM

Include the Crapcan forum and maybe the IT cars also running Prod..
The active count is way low here now, tough to get much lower. Add the new markets and see what happens.

Figure out the add price and let me know.

Thanks, MM

Greg Amy

01-08-2014, 04:13 PM

I dont remember anyone running WGI in the dark. Might be a sound thing or Nascar deal.
We used to run the IMSA Firehawk 24 Hours there ("real" 24 hours, no breaks), back in the late-80s/early-90s. - GA

Matt93SE

01-08-2014, 04:38 PM

Adding those forums to the existing list doesn't cost any additional money- it's about the riff-raff we'll be attracting if we do that...

gran racing

01-08-2014, 04:59 PM

I'm trying to figure out how they can host an 8 hour enduro for $500 per car at LRP. Is the max car count set by LRP or the hosting club? And what will the max amount of cars be for this event?

Greg Amy

01-08-2014, 05:02 PM

Include the Crapcan forum and maybe the IT cars also running Prod..
Aren't there already crapcan forums out there? How would adding another one be of any value? It would be like someone else adding an IT forum to theirs.

The active count is way low here now, tough to get much lower. Add the new markets and see what happens.
This is not a for-profit business; it exists solely to service the IT community. And in fact, increasing the user count is a significant DISincentive, as it would require more work for the volunteer staff...

Surely the Internet already services the CrapCan community...?

Greg Amy

01-08-2014, 05:05 PM

I'm trying to figure out how they can host an 8 hour enduro for $500 per car at LRP.
LRP charges NER something like $57k per weekend, and that doesn't cover costs such as worker food.

40 cars (SCCA's limit at LRP) at $500/car is $20k revenue.

Doing it on Monday helps, I guess, as does being one day instead of two.

Can't think of any other way it could happen. Maybe LRP feels sorry for the "special needs" racing groups...? :shrug:

- GA

georgethefierce

01-08-2014, 05:25 PM

Ron Earp

01-08-2014, 06:30 PM

Agreed. There are lots of crapcan forums out there. If this forum is about SCCA IT racing, and I believe that is what we all want it to be save a few, then let's stay on point. Put the NASA stuff on NASA forums, crapcan stuff on crapcan forums.

lateapex911

01-08-2014, 08:37 PM

Agreed, and there are general forums for those that want to debate the virtues among a mixed group. While it would be NICE to have an active forum of lots of IT racers, I think it's more important to keep the signal to noise ratio up, and keeping the boards focus aimed at it's goals of servicing the IT community is a good way to do that.

slopok

01-08-2014, 08:51 PM

Where is this? There's a new enduro series which will be hosting an event at LRP in March (bleh!) which the entry fee will be $1,500 for 9 hours.

Name of rental? That's insane. Sign me up!

You drove 10.5 hours and others only a total of about 3?

Never mentioned March. 1 driver did not want to drive at night, He got sick anyways so it didn't much matter he put in 2.5 hrs. I took his slots. The 3 other drivers drove the remaining 11 hrs. This was just the second race for this team so the 4 other drivers really did not know what to expect. Given the temperature was a high of 106 and low of 88 these guys all did a great job for their first real 24 hr.

slopok

01-08-2014, 08:56 PM

ner88

01-08-2014, 09:01 PM

Must be a muffled day/event that lowers the costs
or
a weekday

but, I don't believe you can rent one day on an un-muffled weekend

slopok

01-08-2014, 09:25 PM

I just checked out their site and man do they have some cheap dates....no idea how they pull that off.

I have a little knowledge of that. Want the truth or lie ?

lateapex911

01-09-2014, 03:17 AM

I'm trying to figure out how they can host an 8 hour enduro for $500 per car at LRP. Is the max car count set by LRP or the hosting club? And what will the max amount of cars be for this event?
Chumps difficult if you're not registered with them to figure out costs, and even then, I can't figure out some additional fees..
But, they charge for overcrew.
And the cars allowed on track is set at 38 for SCCA, BY SCCA. In the past, HQ has granted waivers up to 42, but it's a car per mile deal.

I'm guessing Chump is fine allowing 50 on track.
Also, I'm betting the insurance coverage isn't apples to oranges.
So, there are some savings Cost of event to Chump) possible there.
And Monday is far cheaper than a Fri/Sat at Lime Rock.
No supps up at Chump for the LRP event, but July 21st has GOT to be muffled, I'd think. Unmuffled days at LRP are fiercely protected by the covenant or decree or whatever the agreement they have cast in stone with the locals..
So, figure the track for the day is more like $17K? $500 x 50 is $25,000. Add in a bunch of passes and other fees and they are up to $30K?

Now, there's costs to getting people there from Morgan Hill CA, I'd think. Somebody has to do timing and tech, team wrangling and race officiating. Corners have to be stationed (Maybe less than SCCA does?)
And it's a business that needs to operate in the black.

So, yea, I'd love to hear how it's done.

ShelbyRacer

01-09-2014, 08:41 AM

Event Sponsorship?

georgethefierce

01-09-2014, 10:26 AM

I have a little knowledge of that. Want the truth or lie ?

yes.

Flyinglizard

01-09-2014, 10:49 AM

Both lemons and Chump have a 92db sound limit. It is very nice and I have to add it to my rule set. I use the thrush #17655 with 10-30 in of pipe post muff.
Not sure how many cars will be on track. I can find out later today.
At small tracks , there is often a waiting list. Cars come and wait for others to blow shit up and leave the track.
The flaggers are the same , Chump pays them and feeds them .
The teams will pay about 600$ per car for LRP.

Flyinglizard

01-09-2014, 11:03 AM

So ,5 of the 20 active posters want to discourage any bleed over from any other source.
We have regions all over the country looking for more entries and inviting new racers to join SCCA.

Add the crap can forum , nobody says that you have to look at it!
pretty simple.
Call it ITEZ maybe ??
Any new trollers are good .
If google can lead new racers here than how is that a bad thing?

The new faces may take a look at their cars ,, schedules etc and consider the IT classes or prod or STL.
Any new interest should be encouraged, not shunned.

This reminds me of the original IT discussions. The prod guys went crazy about the Bondo falling off of the cars etc.

gran racing

01-09-2014, 11:10 AM

The ITEZ sections sounds reasonable to me.

Greg Amy

01-09-2014, 11:22 AM

As of right now, ITEZ is a New England Region initiative. We already have an ITEZ thread in the Northeast Division sub-forum (http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32744). If ITEZ goes national, and needs to have a separate sub-forum to service multiple discussion threads, then that can be a consideration for the future.

But now? ITEZ has generated all of four pages of discussion. In a regional sub-forum.

If needed, I can move the ITEZ thread from the "Northeast Division" sub-forum to "Rules & Regs" or "General Discussion". Or even "Endurance Racing." Just let me know where you'd like it to be.

- GA

P.S. How would you IT guys feel if someone in an existing crapcan forum started a completely separate Improved Touring sub-forum within their forum? Wouldn't your first reaction be "why are they trying to fraction off IT-related discussion to a different place???" I certainly would. So, given that, why should be try to create a CrapCan sub-forum to fraction off their discussion to here...?

Accommodating crapcan within the SCCA IT group is one thing; trying to co-opt their movement is something totally different.

Flyinglizard

01-09-2014, 11:52 AM

Endurance racing
ITEZ has been posted on the CC forum already. The PNW has also been talked about( ITJ.) Many cars can cross over.
BTW I was banned from the forum there for posting the rules on my site. That has passed and The headdick/guy in charge has moved on.

Understand that many new racers have not heard of the SCCA at all . That is why we need to bait them with a crap can , ITEZ forum . The cars and people are not that dissimilar.
Simple marketing- get hits -sell product/ generate interest.
The highest priority of any website is to promote your product to new eyes. For that to happen in our case, is to expose our products to the other racers . To do this well in modern times, it has to generate google hits .Meta tags/ headings etc.
More hits= better .

Greg Amy

01-09-2014, 12:07 PM

The highest priority of any website is to promote your product to new eyes.
I think you're missing the entire point of this web site/forum.

gran racing

01-09-2014, 12:33 PM

:lol: Says Mr. STL and how we have a Super Touring sub forum which exists on Improved Touring's chat forum. Besides, CrapCan is not run by SCCA. Not the same discussion here.

The hope with ITEZ if for it to expand beyond just the NER. After posting the announcement on my site, I was contacted by multiple regions stating they are doing something very similar. I've also spoken with SCCA national and will be again about it. Besides, that at least is a subset of IT.

Greg Amy

01-09-2014, 12:51 PM

Says Mr. STL and how we have a Super Touring sub forum which exists on Improved Touring's chat forum.
So? What's your point?

However, to counter that rather rude and insulting implication, point out to me one of the "other" numerous Super Touring forums on the Internet...?

The hope with ITEZ if for it to expand beyond just the NER.As I noted above, if and when that happens, it can be a consideration for the future. Right now the number of ITEZ cars that have entered an SCCA race is exactly...zero.

Dave, you own your own web site, domain name(s), and you have the capability and knowledge to build it. Go create your own Crap Can forum, promote and develop it, and make it successful. There is NO ONE stopping you from creating a CrapCan forum...if it's so important, why aren't you? Why isn't Mike (who, you should note, has a deep financial conflict of interest in the success of CrapCan)?

Note I ain't the only one here unhappy about all the BS from the CrapCan and Street Tire cultists. Or the only one that is finding it more than just a little tiring.

- GA

Robbie

01-09-2014, 12:54 PM

Greg Amy

01-09-2014, 12:58 PM

Moved discussion to "General" and stickied.

Ron Earp

01-09-2014, 03:28 PM

Note I ain't the only one here unhappy about all the BS from the CrapCan and Street Tire cultists. Or the only one that is finding it more than just a little tiring.

- GA

Nope, you ain't.

Ron "Who's hoping in the next version of IT.com we kill advertising signatures of members and delete advertising posts"

gran racing

01-10-2014, 09:23 AM

Drink a bit too much coffee yesterday Greg? lol

I don't care about CrapCan but do the the initative that Dick and other regions are doing directly related to IT and the "EZ" aspect. It's not about street tires; that isn't in the required rule set for what many regions have said they're going with. Don't do it? Fine.

P.S. How would you IT guys feel if someone in an existing crapcan forum started a completely separate Improved Touring sub-forum within their forum? Wouldn't your first reaction be "why are they trying to fraction off IT-related discussion to a different place???" I certainly would.

What was my point? Just going based on what you said and maybe, just maybe both Super Touring and ITEZ have their value. If it didn't get used, really not a big deal. I'm not pushing hard for this at all, but don't see the harm in it either.

Flyinglizard

01-15-2014, 10:57 PM

banter .http://forums.24hoursoflemons.com/viewtopic.php?pid=234826#p234826

Greg Amy

01-15-2014, 11:00 PM

banter .
Wait...wut? There's actually other forums out there for crapcan racing? Holy keerist...that changes EVERYTHING!!!!

;)

Flyinglizard

01-15-2014, 11:24 PM

Those guys are looking for info and cant find it. Fix it.
MM

Greg Amy

01-15-2014, 11:26 PM

Those guys are looking for info and cant find it. Fix it.
MM
Uuuum...isn't that your responsibility...?

Flyinglizard

01-16-2014, 09:50 PM

ITEZ will be invited to run the 9T9 races.
Joey/ WRL has option for these.

http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showthread.php?p=352996#post352996
Just for GA. R comps run the fast class.
I stil have not seen the mission statement for this site. TIA, MM

almskidd

01-17-2014, 08:16 AM

BTW I was banned from the forum

Wait... You were banned from a forum. I can't imagine why.

gran racing

01-17-2014, 08:45 AM

You think a forum like this is going to create a mission statement??? :rolleyes:

Ron Earp

01-17-2014, 08:53 AM

I think Mike should visit the Brown Board to discuss crap can.

Flyinglizard

01-17-2014, 11:18 AM

Greg Amy

01-17-2014, 12:34 PM

Mission statement? Mission statement? We don't need no steenkin' MISSION STATEMENT!!!!

"Promotion" is not a good word for how I'd describe this forum. "Promotion" implies active work by someone trying to improve participation within something (like what you're doing with crapcan racing). I don't see that here. While some may have that as their agenda, I see this place as more of a common/paddock bullshit area where we can talk about all-things-IT.

I came from IT (and Showroom Stock). When Super Touring was made an official category - and especially when STL was an announced - I asked Mr Webmaster to create a sub-forum for a similar gathering place for ST-related topic, since ST had no other place already created on the Internet and I didn't want to have to bother with a new forum (I was already heading that direction with my Integra, though it was only a Regional class at the time). After that I found myself volunteered for the committee...

Crapcan may very well find someplace similar here in the future. But right now the guerrilla tactics of its (and street tire) proponents put off a lot of people. Notice that I never ever try to "promote" ST in lieu of participation in IT; I don't lure one from the other. In fact, I personal supported distinct regs changes - such as the weights of the 13B in STL inclusion of IT regs in STL - so as to not create an either/or situation and/or force a competitor to have to do one or the other.

In addition, crapcan already has places on the Internet. For us to create another one would be in direct contrast to the work those folks are already doing and would split the community.

We welcome crapcan into IT, and are now beginning to include them in our ranks, but we do not try to encourage them to give up prior allegiances, nor do we offer to change our regs to make them competitive.

There's distinct differences there that, once realized, will make co-existence a lot more tolerable.

- GA

JLawton

01-20-2014, 10:06 AM

If you say it , mean it.

GA a said to move all of the ITEZ/Crapcan discussion to here. Hassle free, to get on with it. It will be the only place that we will tolerate crapcan discussion. OK , Im good with that.
Now I get same 5 with 50K$ IT crap that are just harassing the low end guy.
Please Get off and go wax your race car. You don't have to read it. I don't want your input, you have gained no respect.
The biggest issue I have is with the mission statement. If it is not to promote IT racing and SCCA touring car racing, what is it?

Comments per above does not promote any of you, your racing venue, or offer a welcoming atmosphere to the casual observer.
Try something new. Thanks. MM

Mike,

You have some great ideas and i appreciate your passion for the crap can racing and promoting it....... but trying to ram it down our throats on an IT forum is not the way to do it. Greg has volunteered to take on this site and make it better for us (IT racers). Stop hasseling him and everyone on this site who disagrees with you........ which seems to be just about everyone. This is an IT site.............

pfcs

01-20-2014, 12:10 PM

Consider that you should not brand as !HERETICS! those that speak of a cheap, entry level, attractive touring car racing on a kind of DOT approved tire (TW180?).

Some of you are in denial of whence you came from

And some of you display behavior a historian might consider to be the arrogance and effetism that was directed at improved touring at it's genesis.

Shame on you!!

Greg Amy

01-20-2014, 01:31 PM

Heretic - noun - a person believing in or practicing religious heresy.

Heresy - noun - a belief or opinion that does not agree with the official belief or opinion of a particular religion

Religion - noun - an interest, a belief, or an activity that is very important to a person or group

Ergo...

Heretic - a person believing in or practicing an interest, a belief, or an activity that is very important to them but does not agree with the official belief.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary

No guidance from the Chicago Manual of Style on if/when the capitalization and leading and trailing exclamation points are required.

;)

pfcs

01-20-2014, 01:42 PM

get a life

Happy to help you with your vocabulary, but concepts may be too much of a learning for you.

seckerich

01-20-2014, 01:44 PM

You need to get a grip Phil, nobody is telling anyone they can not run an IT car at any prep level they like. Nobody is saying 180TW tires are a bad thing.

What gets old is the same person going on every forum they can sign up for and preaching his version of utopia and anyone who disagrees is a jerk? Now if we actually build a nice car over the years we are a waxer? With all due respect Mike, go screw yourself. Your main interest in all of this is to rent more cars, so lets be honest. You want everyone to come around to your business model so your crap can cars are more viable to rent. Every post you make is either advertising your book or your rentals. Greg should charge you for your posts.

ITEZ is a great idea that many region leaders would use including myself. You however make me want to not have anything to do with this whole mess. :023:

Flyinglizard

01-20-2014, 01:56 PM

Modern facts. By discussing crap cans, Chumpcar whatever on these forums. guess what? . The discussion comes up in many search engines regarding said topic.
By increasing visibility of SCCA IT racing and ITEZ racing , we may get one or two new faces to run their cars with SCCA.
By adding visibility and making others aware of SCCA as a possible venue to race their cars, all parties benefit.
By having all of the non welcoming replies, you are cutting off your own noses.
Really if you don't want to race ITEZ, you don't have to reply!! move on. Iget PMs and emails about the Ahole s on the SCCA board, " I guess that they really don't want us hungh"

Oh well, good thing that we have NASA,Lemons, Chumpcar, WRL .
yes, take a look at this http://www.24hoursoflemons.com/events-results/article/139-nasa-we-have-a-problem-2-hour-sprint.

That is all. I have 5 race cars that are rented for many venues/sanctions.

Some new renters, IE Barber, Russell, graduates have never heard of IT racing. But they know about SM and lemons.

I really don't care overall. I have offered my help to promote SCCA racing and believe that SCCA has very poor promotional dept.
I was wrong about the mission statement for this site- and without promotion being P 1, than the site itself has little to live for.
IT racers have moved on, SM has many , vintage has many, prod, Chumps etc.
Racers with opportunity /cash move to venues and situations that make them happy. Racers like to race close and for a reasonable cost . IT racing has moved away from all of those with fewer cars and the same cost as a SM.
Just changing the rule for allowing electric FI for all injected cars and open ECU added 1000-2000$+- for the 3 -4HP return.
I built the first 3 VW ITB cars for 2000$ or less .
I will go back to patent research/writing/racing and leave you 10 guys alone.
MM
PS how is ITEZ racing in the NE going to affect any rentals that I have here in FL?
My book does fine thanks .

pfcs

01-20-2014, 02:15 PM

Greg Amy

01-20-2014, 02:27 PM

pfcs

01-20-2014, 03:07 PM

I think Mr Hunt is missing the smilies at the end of my post...

I truly wish you guys luck. Christianity only started with 11 apostles, but he had to conquer the world; you two only have to conquer one Internet forum. And we don't even have any lions...

;) <---- Just in case you missed it...

Let me amend my replies:
Greg, your obviously dismissive attitude towards anything you don't like is unattractive in the least and in a greater sense, a deterrent to healthy problem solving on this board.
Also, your apparent inability to read and comprehend simple grade school grammar is at question: "However, there are other well respected members of this forum that are expressing more than casual interest in the possibilities of DOT approved TW180 tires" There IS a distinction between singular and plural! I am not a "members". However, Steve Blethem, Chip 42, Dave Gran, Raymond B, and I believe, even myself, are some who have posited the radical possibility of improving the racing and the economy with TW180 tires.
And please don't deign to marry someone you don't know (me) to anyone who I don't know ("Mike often resembles a self-promoting troll. I hope that's not the case")
I will now retire from this bullshit.

seckerich

01-20-2014, 03:14 PM

Perhaps I am over-reacting. Mike often resembles a self-promoting troll. I hope that's not the case.
However, there are other well respected members of this forum that are expressing more than casual interest in the possibilities of DOT approved TW180 tires. They shouldn't be discounted!
"Crapcan may very well find someplace similar here in the future. But right now the guerrilla tactics of its (and street tire) proponents put off a lot of people." Amy
"Mike" is not plural.
Also, some of Greg's comments come off as petty and arrogant-just the sort of behavior that discourages constructive discourse, as exhibited in my prior post. (and thanks for reminding me)
If Mr Amy is going to control this board, he's better learn to leave his ego at the door.

EDIT-Oh yeah! I apologize and am sorry

No problem Phil. I know your background. I like ITEZ, great to give drivers a place to run with SCCA. I added an IT catch all class to our Charlotte race to accomodate the chump cars in our night enduro.

I just have a problem with getting beat up non stop unless I agree with Mikes view of the world. I disagree that you can not run IT today just as cheaply as you ran it many years ago. Can you win in some of the faster classes with a $2500 dollar car, no. Can you have some fun racing with a good group of drivers, yes. I also disagree with the "perception" that Chump is a $500 dollar class and know full well the dollars that many have in the cars. It is a Pirates Code type of racing where you basically have to be the best at slipping something by the officials to win. I get it, and would run one in a minute and have a blast.

I do disagree with Mike saying he is helping IT racing with his repeated posts, he is not. Search engine or not, all he does is bash the current IT and try to recruit for Chump or Lemons. Non welcome replies are aimed at your views, not Chump, etc. We had a long discussion at our SE divisional meeting this weekend about them and reaction was positive. You see and hear what you want, but reality is different.

Back to waxing now. :D

Greg Amy

01-20-2014, 03:20 PM

Greg, your obviously dismissive attitude towards anything you don't like is unattractive in the least and in a greater sense, a deterrent to healthy problem solving on this board.
Your concerns - and your apparent lack of attraction to me - have been duly noted.

"However, there are other well respected members of this forum that are expressing more than casual interest in the possibilities of DOT approved TW180 tires"
...
"Mike often resembles a self-promoting troll. I hope that's not the case"
I believe you are confusing me with someone else. I did not write these sentences. Nor - until this moment, at least - did I harbor such sentiments.

But keep going.

However, Steve Blethem, Chip 42, Dave Gran, Raymond B, and I believe, even myself, are some who have posited the radical possibility of improving the racing and the economy with TW180 tires.You missed Kirk Knestis; he's a big fan of them, too. And, of course, Mike (how in the heck did you forget about Mike...?)

It's way wicked cool you're trying to "improve the economy" with TW180 tires (is the President aware of this?) but I think you're confusing "opportunity" with "mandate":

"Opportunity" - I can run with TW180 tires in Improved Touring and IT-EZ.

"Mandate" - Since I want to run on TW180 tires, you must change the Improved Touring and IT-EZ regs so that everyone must run on them. It's for the children, after all, and if you don't do it then the terrorists win.

IT-EZ fits "opportunity" quite well. Incredibly well. But you're smoking crack if you think convincing little-ole-me me of that point is going to change a nationwide set of regulations (what's the status on your letter to Topeka for that?)

I'm flattered, however, that you give me that kinda credit.

I will now retire from this bullshit.I kinda doubt that. But I wait in anticipation.

- GA

lateapex911

01-20-2014, 03:25 PM

Man, you guys READ what Mike writes!?

My eyes just glaze over. Grammar something something, not getting the message across.

jumbojimbo

01-20-2014, 03:50 PM

Man, you guys READ what Mike writes!?

My eyes just glaze over. Grammar something something, not getting the message across.

I have a translator that simply replaces with "IT Sux, Chumpcar Rules!" I'm thinking about rewriting it to ITSCCR to save space.

Seriously, I appreciate his enthusiasm, but I consistently see him bash IT and promote Chumpcar. And his only plan to "save" SCCA is by remaking it in the CC image. Any claim that he promotes or helps SCCA in general and IT in particular is simply not true in my opinion.

seckerich

01-20-2014, 04:32 PM

I have a translator that simply replaces with "IT Sux, Crapcan Rules!" I'm thinking about rewriting it to ITSCCR to save space.

Seriously, I appreciate his enthusiasm, but I consistently see him bash IT and promote Crapcan. And his only plan to "save" SCCA is by remaking it in the CC image. Any claim that he promotes or helps SCCA in general and IT in particular is simply not true in my opinion.

Why do you hate VW and front wheel drive?? :D

Dano77

01-20-2014, 05:38 PM

You missed Kirk Knestis; he's a big fan of them, too. And, of course, Mike (how in the heck did you forget about Mike...?)

It's way wicked cool you're trying to "improve the economy" with TW180 tires (is the President aware of this?) but I think you're confusing "opportunity" with "mandate":

But I wait in anticipation.

- GA

Hey, dont forget about the IT7 guys in NER. We obviously havent been vocally offensive enough in the last 9 pages......

You all need to buy RX7 and run on Nittos from Walmart says the crystal ball.... Muhahahahahahahahahahahahahahha

StephF

01-20-2014, 08:54 PM

:blink:
Wow...religious references, street tires, Greg quoting the dictionary, a variety of sand filled manginas, Crapcan, STL, Chump, the economy, poor grammar, sarcastic smilies, and no mission statement for IT.com (mission statement? mission statement? )
Did I miss anything in the Cliff's Note version?
Must be January in New England.
Carry on....

Knestis

01-20-2014, 10:12 PM

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02382/horror_2382351b.jpg

Terry Hanushek

01-20-2014, 10:53 PM

Steph

Must be January in New England.

Nailed it!

T

ner88

01-20-2014, 11:24 PM

The funny part is we in New England get it and are putting it into action:D

Greg Amy

01-21-2014, 08:09 AM

It's winter in New England.

It's snowing today.

Race car's on home lift getting Sebring Maintenance (the amount of broken s**t is fairly impressive).

Mr Webmaster is upgrading us to the 2010's.

I have beer.

What more could one ask for?

JS154

01-21-2014, 04:27 PM

Agree, I also think that allowing R-comps might actually be a good thing. I bet smarty would give away used tires for free if you pay him to mount them...

Stephen

I think the street tire thing would be good for the CrapCans - race tires will put much higher loads on everything on the car and crap *will* break sooner.

Also good to be consistent with another org based ruleset. If it takes off and the racers want Stickies, let them ask for them.

In the meantime street tires is a good idea imho.

dickita15

01-21-2014, 05:23 PM

While I appreciate all the passion and well-reasoned opinions on what NER ITEZ should be with regard to tires and other things the region has chosen to make the class as non-exclusionary as possible in an effort to be inclusive. For 2014 you can run any DOT tire.
I hope those that want to race on street tires come and run with us and I promise if enough show up that want a street tire class we will build a street tire class, but that decision will be made by the region to support racers who race with us and support the region, not opinions on the internet.
You can change the direction of SCCA Club Racing but you have to do it with participation not internet posts.

mossaidis

01-21-2014, 05:36 PM

You can change the direction of SCCA Club Racing but you have to do it with participation not internet posts.

Unbelievable... :D

Greg Amy

01-21-2014, 07:26 PM

Another one of my favorite bars...

Flyinglizard

04-02-2014, 09:09 AM

http://socal.drivenasa.com/2014/03/5000-race-class-launches.html

dickita15

04-02-2014, 09:58 AM

interesting twist on the claimer rule:

9. Claimer Rule
A) Any competitor that finishes 3

rd, or 2nd, in a points race is eligible to “Claim” (buy) another competitors vehicle that
finished ahead AND turned a faster lap time by 3 (three) seconds or more for $5,000.00. The owner of claimed vehicle
will be permitted to remove all safety, instrumentation, and driver comfort gear (seat, aftermarket gauges, radios,
helmet blower, hydration, body temp regulators) other than roll cage. Owner of claimed vehicle has reciprocal option
to buy claimers vehicle for $3,000 if so desired (less permitted removal items above). In the case of multiple claims on
same vehicle, it will be awarded to highest bidder but NASA will keep any funds above $5,000.
Example. I finish 3rd and best lap is 5 seconds slower than 1
st place best lap. I am eligible to submit claim form for 1st
place vehicle. I must immediately pay $5000 cash but claimed owner is permitted to pay me $3000 and take my car.
Therefore, I bought 1
st place vehicle but he/she now owns my car with another $2000 in their pocket.

jumbojimbo

04-02-2014, 11:27 AM

So you can buy a second for about $666? Assuming the 3 seconds are in the car, not the driver.

It's an interesting idea, but it runs counter to the idea of good fellowship. I can imagine the ill will it would generate in my little group of friends if one of us claimed another's car. I doubt we'd be sitting around the campfire drinking beer or going out to Up a Creek.

gran racing

04-02-2014, 01:49 PM

Get good drivers to finish just in 3rd place with lowest build possible. Buy 1st place car. :) But then that will most likely happen again.

I like the idea of somehow limiting builds for performance, but there's so much work to make a car reliable. Will be interesting to follow - from aside.

lawtonglenn

04-03-2014, 07:50 AM

I'd have to think hard about which class to compete in!

3628

Chip42

04-03-2014, 01:07 PM

it's a step in the right direction to mix crapcan enthusiasm with proper racecar building. not sure if it will be successful but I'm watching.

forestdweller37

04-03-2014, 07:28 PM

The claimer rule died an early death in chump. It sounded good on the surface, but people hated the idea that they could lose their car.

Chip42

04-04-2014, 09:22 AM

yes, I think claimers only work well on low-variation series like you see in the circle tracks. with 20+ makes of car to pick from and so many years, sportscars are not the best fit for the rule (spec classes might be able to make it work). I DO like the concept though, insomuch as it is a way to force people to honestly operate under a certain budget cap or risk loosing the "investment."

Flyinglizard

04-04-2014, 10:12 AM

I have been involved with at least three series with claimers. Chumpcar, we simply told John that we would not race our 10,000$ car for a 2000$ claimer. end of deal.
My old stockcar Spencer speedway 1982-83 . 1000$ claimer. some guy came out of the stands to buy my often winning car, 72 Buick, 350, switch pitch glide, F41, rearsteered.,etc for the 1000$. I had a huge red oil light that could be seen from the stands, he asked what was the red light for?/ My answer,¨ low oil pressure". He went back in the stands.
Most of the claimer rules are in name only and not successful.
For a claimer to be successful, the series has to claim the winning car at every race and thus keep the bar low.IMHO