Street tires in IT? My Review [Archive] - Improved Touring Racing Forums

Chip42

12-02-2013, 12:59 PM

As promised, I ran a set of 205/50R15 Dunlop Direzza ZIIs at Sebring for the traditional Thanksgiving weekend "Turkey Trot" races 11/30-12/1. My car is a mild prep ITB MR2 at 2335 min weight, about 2340-2380# as raced depending on fuel load.

the rain gods were unhappy with us, and every time our group was headed to grid the skies would start to spit on us - just enough to make everything slick, not enough water to exploit the treads on the Dunlops. oh well. so I didn't really develop a feel for the tires until the races on sunday, the later of which started dry.

My impressions:
little to no noise. none of that 1982 showroom stock tire howl many people seemed to expect.

amazing braking feel. I could lock them up but it wasn't like I was constantly feeling for that line. 9/10ths driving there was no issue, 10/10s it was still impressive how much brake I could use.

Cornering grip is certainly less than a hoosier, but I think the marked difference is a slightly slower response time to inputs on the wheel. I wasn't logging actual Gs but I didn't feel wanting. slip angles were obviously higher, and I found myself throwing a lot more at the wheel than I would normally with hoosiers. simple to get used to, and it was fun chucking the car around a bit. optimizing the suspension and alignment for these tires would help, with near zero toe the car was a bit floaty. shaving the tread might help response but goes contrary to my experiment to evaluate the tires as delivered.

They are very linear - breakaway is not sharp, though it is still sudden. recovery is easier than on a hoosier for this reason.

speed - I'm no SARRC champ but I was able to keep up with the same pack of cars I usually run with, and actually made up ground in the corners as usual for my rather underpowered car. I honestly don't think I was more than 2s off my personal Hoosier pace.

overall I really enjoyed them. more forgiving, require a bit more input, handle great, and feel very racy. At roughly half the price of a set of R6s in the same size... I'm a convert.

I ran Street Tire Challenge livery on my hood that will match the decals I'll be offering for IT racers in the CFR, or other divisional/regional series that wish to make use of them, to run a race within a race for IT cars - 100% optional, scored separately by volunteers, not the local SCCA event organizers, so it's invisible to the T&S folks and thus easier to implement on the fly. 100% IT rules with an added 180+ tread wear minimum to the tire rules. sign up, slap on a sticker, go have fun.

current offerings in popular IT sizes that fit the bill are the ZII I ran along with the BFG Rival, Hankook RS3, and Yokohama AD08R. there are some others in fewer sizes and I'll bet more are on the way.

stay tuned for more on the Street Tire Challenge series. I urge everyone to try these out, I think you'll be surprised how good they are. I think they are likely to be farther off the pace as the class speeds go up, so ITS might be 5-6s a lap off, where ITB is maybe 2-3s.

anyhow, I'd like to hear other's impressions. I think these have the potential to make for a lot of fun, lower cost racing.

Knestis

12-02-2013, 01:14 PM

Good feedback here. I'm looking forward to seeing how the Challenge works out!

K

quadzjr

12-02-2013, 07:52 PM

This same weekend I pulled the older 195/60x14 dunlop Z1 tires off my street car. They were a lot of fun. I was unable to get any real comparable data as the runs were in the damp and the reat was on new 225 R6. I hope more regions think about it. There was a decent group of people that came by and was interested. Ranging from ITS to ITC. Not many ITR cars there.

I plan on getting a set of Z2s or rivals and run cfr races. Hoosiers are great but if you are not getting contingency (finishing position or lack of competitors) then this is a great solution.

Flyinglizard

12-02-2013, 08:19 PM

Congrats on your win!!

I have a pile(20+) of 205/50/15 Dunlops. Z1, 160$ for 4. some are very nice. The new Z2 are supposed to grease up more than the last version. I dont know for sure tho.
The new Chumper needs some 265x 17s.

Add the HP class to the ITA cars and I'll bring a Golf. It wont keep up with the ITA cars tho but I can try.

Chip42

12-02-2013, 10:45 PM

I'm not getting into class mix n' match. if you want to run the HP car on 180s, we can work a group for that, but it'd an ITX or SPU, not an ITCS class.

they really were impressive though. to bad I wasn't as much, but cobwebs and all that.

Matt93SE

12-02-2013, 11:18 PM

FWIW we run the Rivals on our crapcan Miata, and I'm happier with them than I am Z1s in the same size. we ran a full 24hr event and used up maybe 25% of the tire. I never ran that car with DOT-Rs, but I was quite happy with how it handles on the Rivals and was keeping up with well-known SM builders & racers in their 'cheater SM car'. (they were also on Rivals).

StephenB

12-03-2013, 12:53 AM

This is great to hear! I am glad someone else has given this try and realizes how great this type of tire can be especially on IT cars. I still think it is hard to get off the purple crack when you have a car that you know can win, but if you can get enough people to race with you'll have a ton of fun!

Stephen

StephenB

12-03-2013, 01:00 AM

I also don't think ITS or ITR cars would be 6+ seconds slower. If that was the case I could get people crack and get a lot of track records! We have found 2-3 seconds the norm (for us) and we are running under 4 seconds off the track record. With our ITR car we are running about a second faster than a SM track record. not sure if that helps in your comparison. I find the biggest loss in time (using our data, not a hunch) is actually getting the power down at exit. On Hoosiers you can get on the throttle sooner and harder making up time all the way down the straight.

Stephen

Ron Earp

12-03-2013, 07:58 AM

I also don't think ITS or ITR cars would be 6+ seconds slower.

You're in ITR though and can get properly sized street tires. Without changes in the wheel rule for ITS, ITS times are going to be quite a bit slower. 205-15 street tires are smaller than what most of us in ITS use. I use 245-15 tires on all four corners, and will be experimenting with a larger size this spring. A couple other ITS cars use larger than 225 as well.

StephenB

12-03-2013, 08:09 AM

That makes sense. We are running 245 17

Stephen

gran racing

12-03-2013, 09:05 AM

What size street tires and you fit and work well on 7" wide rims. I was using Hoosier 225s on 6" wide wheels, and the Hoosiers are known to be on the larger variance of the 225 specs.

AE86ITA

12-03-2013, 10:16 AM

Here in PR in an attemp to lower competition costs and attract more competitor we decided to go with street tires. After receiving different proposals we decided to go(for 2 years) with the Kumho XS as the local distributor offered them in 205/50-15 at $100ea with monting and balancing for racers.

Many people criticized the decision, but when everybody got to the track, the club started receiving complements on the decision and now everyone love them. To the point that some of the GT3 racers are considering it. As racers setup their suspension I am certain times will continue to drop and so far we're getting two full weekend out a new set.

There are other very good options like the Hankook RS3, Dunlop ZII, Toyo R1R.

Chip42

12-03-2013, 11:05 AM

the hoosiers fit smaller wheels better than most street tires due to the real street tires having real street carcasses where the DOT-"R" tires have just enough to get by. a 225 street will fit a 7" rim no worries, and should fit a 6" wheel but you'd need to test for diminishing and negative returns from flexing the tire to the wheel. there are no 245 15's though. that's true. but at least everyone is in the same situation so it's not as much a detriment if you look at it that way. there are 225's from BFG and some others.

Stephen - you and your brother's experience, as well as that of a bunch of guys named Rob who have driven the RX8 is of huge importance to me. your team sort of pioneered the Street Tire IT thing and have the most experience with it that I'm aware of. I know we are taking different approaches to getting people interested, but I'd like our efforts to help each others with data and contacts.

webhound

12-03-2013, 12:40 PM

I find the biggest loss in time (using our data, not a hunch) is actually getting the power down at exit. On Hoosiers you can get on the throttle sooner and harder making up time all the way down the straight.

Stephen

**Hodge-podge post to follow**

1. On the other forum, there was a thread posted about a test with an autox Vette comparing street tires and A6s. Very similar DATA was found: the peak g-loading between the tires were similar, both laterally and longitudinally. The streets were nowhere near as good at doing two things at once. You could see it pretty starkly in the g-meter scatter plots that read like a friction circle.

2. The available sizes are probably an issue. I think there would be some that would argue that the bigger problem would be with the B and C cars, not as much the S cars, because in the little cars the diametrical difference is more, street vs R. Hell, for them, it would be a bigger setup change, because even ride height is grossly effected. Counter to that argument could be that **most** cars in the same class run on similar diameter wheels/tires. So you could say that it would effect everyone evenly, for the most part.

3. On a 15X7, you can run a 225/45-15, which is available in the Rival. There was a test in the last GRM of this tire. It was faster on the 8 and 9, but whatever.

4. On the ME front. I run all sorts of tires on my car. For pdx, I've run a 13" V710, a 205 Ecsta XS on a 15X7, and a Azenis 615K on a 15X6. I also ran the ARRC on a combo of the Azenis on the 6 for a rain quali session, and an SM6 take-off on a 15X7. I'm not married to any of the above. They all "feel good." Right now, what I'm planning on doing next year is to run at least one SCCA endurance race on the Rival, a Chump on the Rival on 8s, and a Major which will probably be on some sort of R6 take off, to better keep up in the STL/FProd groups.

Unfortunately because my car has been through tons of changes, I don't have comparative data, but I ran high 1:45s at the ARRC on the SM6s, and at a late season pdx at Lime Rock I ran a high 1:05 on the Ecta XS. ITA car, VERY light prep. Honestly, I felt 1:05s at LRP on streets was very strong, I'm pretty sure with even just a smidge of development in the car, and newer streets, I'd be able to find someone to race with in even a mid sized field.

5. Why does the data matter {Devil's Advocate}? If you have a group on streets, how they compare to a class on rcomps is immaterial. I think the Blethen's experience, and from what I've seen from #4, even in a mixed group, a street tire shod car won't be dangerous or in the way. The guy or girl inside it will just be retaining a few more of his/her earned dollars.

6. Chip: I'd like to see a pic of your car with the STC livery. And maybe info on where to get me some. Or maybe just make the graphics files available? I'm borderline agnostic on the whole thing, as running the SM6 take-offs was frickin cheap for me too. But otoh, they were trash after only the ARRC weekend, and it would be easier to not have to put new tires on all the time, no matter the cost of them.

Good discussion. I have no interest in changing anyone's mind at this point, or pushing for rules changes. The organic movement that could come out of Chip's idea is compelling, though.

Will

mossaidis

12-03-2013, 01:05 PM

Rival 225/45/R15... $121 from tirerack. wow

Xian

12-03-2013, 02:58 PM

Rival 225/45/R15... $121 from tirerack. wow

Up until a week or so ago, they were also offering a $50 rebate when you buy 4... then there's the Dunlop Z2 at $109 each... and Bridgestone with the RE-11A and a $70 rebate. :D

Like I've said before: the current crop of street tires don't have the same absolute limits as R-comps but they're a crap ton cheaper as long as you have a tire that doesn't need or benefit greatly from shaving.

gran racing

12-03-2013, 03:07 PM

and so far we're getting two full weekend out a new set.

I'm surprised you're not getting more out of them. I thought street tires have a much longer life span?

Greg Amy

12-03-2013, 03:11 PM

I think this is a really cool idea. I'd like to encourage any and all of my STL competitors to try out these tires, too.

Chip42

12-03-2013, 03:12 PM

The livery as. Run on my car:

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa89/chipperpunk/street%20tire%20challenge/IMG_20131124_164531.jpg

Decals will be red where this is green. "Racing for fun" is a placeholder. I'm accepting alternate suggestions for that. Right now I'm thinking a play on words about the tread like. "race with depth" or simply "groovy".

I'll share the art on the website which is forthcoming. I hope to have it all up and running by 1/1/14

and thanks to Marc Dana (MazMarc) for the design and vinyl work. he makes my bad ideas look good.

webhound

12-03-2013, 03:24 PM

I'm surprised you're not getting more out of them. I thought street tires have a much longer life span?

+1, cheese grater track?

I have ~18 hours on my Azenis 615Ks, other than one that's sort of flat spotted, they have at least another half that left, or more.

I have probably 20+ hours on my Ecsta XS (which don't meet the 200tw requirements for most street tire series, but ARE streets), and they came to me as a completely unknown quantity. I'd use them another 2 pdx days, AT LEAST. A novice or inter PDX driver could probably go another 10-12 hours on them with no trouble.

I did a Lemons with another team on the Dunlop Z1s, 14 hours and they had at least another 6+ hours on them with no issues, E30 BMW.

I'm pretty sure others are seeing the same numbers out of the Z2s and the Rivals. IE if you're somewhat diligent with them re flat spotting (to which streets are pretty resistant) and rotation, 24 hard track hours are not out of the qustion for a set.

Notable with at least the ones I've had direct experience with, the 615k, XS and Z1, the tires are very very consistent along it's life. Example, the Z1 on the E30 was at Lightning. I ran my fastest laps of the event in the cool on the second day after the tires had been run for ~9-10 hours. And that was well into my stint.

AE86ITA

12-03-2013, 03:36 PM

I'm surprised you're not getting more out of them. I thought street tires have a much longer life span?

Don't get me wrong there is thread left on them but grip is 50% gone. Mind you we have 2 20min practice, 1 20min qualiy on Saturday + 1 20min practice + 2 30 min races on sunday. Our average track temp fluctuate from 90(winter) to 120(summer).

StephenB

12-03-2013, 03:37 PM

Chip, I love what your doing with this!

Greg, I would have but you kicked me out of your sand box :(

Next year we are thinking of doing this as a double dip in STL/STU. Tim and I did it last year at the last race and just started last. Had a lot of fun but caught the miatas faster than we thought we would.

We will post up a video from VIR soon. Tires lasted way better at that track than NJ. But at both tracks they lasted 13+hrs and I would still use them.

tim240z

12-03-2013, 04:00 PM

I'll let Chris chime in with our experience with the Rivals at PBIR a few weeks ago. We came out with a class win through attrition, and times weren't too far off the HoHos.

Greg Amy

12-03-2013, 04:09 PM

Greg, I would have but you kicked me out of your sand box :(
No we didn't: we never let you in to begin with! ;)

gran racing

12-03-2013, 04:14 PM

Greg, do you want others in your class to use them since you're planning on using them or just trying to gain another advantage?

Right now I'm thinking a play on words about the tread like. "race with depth" or simply "groovy".

Wonder what else could be thought of? Something pertaining to the low cost and longevity of the tires. Inexpensive and lasts! Okay, probably not that...

Greg Amy

12-03-2013, 04:28 PM

Greg, do you want others in your class to use them since you're planning on using them or just trying to gain another advantage?
Yes.

ShelbyRacer

12-03-2013, 04:47 PM

Decals will be red where this is green. "Racing for fun" is a placeholder. I'm accepting alternate suggestions for that. Right now I'm thinking a play on words about the tread like. "race with depth" or simply "groovy".

I'll share the art on the website which is forthcoming. I hope to have it all up and running by 1/1/14

and thanks to Marc Dana (MazMarc) for the design and vinyl work. he makes my bad ideas look good.

Wonder what else could be thought of? Something pertaining to the low cost and longevity of the tires. Inexpensive and lasts! Okay, probably not that...

Several quick ideas-

TREADS- not just for F1 anymore...

RIBBED, for my wallet's pleasure.

The most fun you can have with more than 6/32s...

webhound

12-04-2013, 10:38 AM

Don't get me wrong there is thread left on them but grip is 50% gone. Mind you we have 2 20min practice, 1 20min qualiy on Saturday + 1 20min practice + 2 30 min races on sunday. Our average track temp fluctuate from 90(winter) to 120(summer).

Maybe it's the heat, but this doesn't match with what many others have seen. You say you get a deal on the Ecsta XS, I've actually found them to be a longevity champion. My first set I did a few track days THEN did probably 250 competitive autox runs. They were good through all of that and I sold them on to a guy using them on his daily Miata.

R1R, I would expect to see wicked wear and fall off in your heat after only a handful of sessions.

seckerich

12-04-2013, 11:23 AM

JLawton

12-04-2013, 11:46 AM

I think this is a really cool idea. I'd like to encourage any and all of my STL competitors to try out these tires, too.

Dave Gran, I think you should also move to street tires for 2014......................

gran racing

12-04-2013, 02:53 PM

With the engine issues, I barely raced. Got some Hoosiers in my basement ready to go. ;)

I do honestly like the idea of being able to reduce tire costs.

webhound

12-04-2013, 03:29 PM

Dave Gran, I think you should also move to street tires for 2014......................

With the engine issues, I barely raced. Got some Hoosiers in my basement ready to go. ;)

I do honestly like the idea of being able to reduce tire costs.

Hell, if you two do it, and maybe two more ITA guys from the Northeast do it, basically the whole top of the field would be on streets. I'm pretty sure a top car on streets could still beat a middling car on whatever tires middling cars are normally on. Everyone would probably switch in one season.

Greg Amy

12-04-2013, 03:57 PM

Hell, if you two do it, and maybe two more ITA guys from the Northeast do it, basically the whole top of the field would be on streets. Everyone would probably switch in one season.
I want a pony.

webhound

12-04-2013, 04:24 PM

I want a pony.

Give me your car, I'll give you a pony!

:023:

XelderX

12-04-2013, 07:38 PM

I'm just getting started on building my ITA car so it may be a while before it ever sees a race. I do plan on running street tires on it at first since I'm not worried about being "competitive" and just want to get some seat time. I've got experience with the Dunlop ZII from Chumpcar races and I like them a lot. I have experience with A6s on the car that is being built for ITA, but not in ITA legal fitments (nowhere close) so no use in even trying to compare. I'm glad that others are considering a switch. Keeping tires on my car is the biggest expense.

StephenB

12-04-2013, 11:34 PM

How did your diff temps do with the different clearance?

Bb
How did your diff temps do with the different clearance?

Great Steve! Not a single issue at all. Still need to get another 1 from you and hopefully 1 for Raymonds car as well.

Thanks again for all the advice,
Stephen

I do think you can overheat the street tires easily if your pushing to hard and sliding them a lot but if you back off a lap or two they come right back.

matt batson

12-05-2013, 12:08 AM

as someone who is planning to re-enter the road racing scene, it is really encouraging to hear that many are interested in running cheaper street tires

heck, my first set of tires on whatever car/class I end up in will probably be a 180+tw tire.

then, if I and the car are fast enough at some point to win, or if I'm attending the ARRC or Ruboff's, then I may go bend over for some Ho-ho's....
hopefully by then there will be an official street tire class

Greg Amy

12-05-2013, 08:20 AM

as someone who is planning to re-enter the road racing scene, it is really encouraging to hear that many are interested in running cheaper street tires
I'm going to offer a balancing view on this, and point out the obvious...that unless the rules are changed to restrict tires, you're always going to get your ass handed to you. Every weekend.

And you're going to hate it.

Remember, racing isn't about saving money. It's about winning.

I witnessed this with the IT7 group up here in the northeast. They have a "gentleman's agreement" to run Nittos, instead of following the ITA regs. Each and every time someone decides to slap "IT7" on the side of their car, yet chooses to run Hoosiers (remember, their very own self-made rules state "we follow ITA regs") that person gets shunned.

Now, I'm expecting a blitz of replies from them denying it, yet I've personally witnessed it: Jake, Norm, even half-serious ribbing of Ray this year. And each of those person has felt uncomfortable with it, and made to feel defensive (and make excuses) about it, and in the end either left the group or relented to Nittos.

And yet, each time I've asked - sometimes, insisted - that they change the IT7 regs to specify either a Nitto tire or a minimum TW - something they have complete access and authority to do! - they decline, stating it's not needed.

Well, it is.

So for those of you getting all excited about the "street tire revolution" I caution you: either change the regs, create a completely new class with tire-specific regs, or simply STFU when someone comes and races against you with a Hoosier tire and leave them alone. They're following the rules that you created.

Just sayin'.

- GA

JeffYoung

12-05-2013, 08:54 AM

Good write up.

I need to do a test day on the Rivals I bought four months ago and see what this things are like.

Flyinglizard

12-05-2013, 09:48 AM

If you are going to have a "gentleman's agreement" per tires, have a small trophy /pizza party just for the guys on the right tires. Dont allow the HOHOs to eat any pizza. Sounds trivial but racing among friends is the best.
Some guys just like to go fast and look good on the results page. Some guys, as they get older/wiser, like to race WTW. The actual speed is irrelevant. Slower cars give you time to flip each other off on the straights.

The actual tires; Falken gave me some tires @ 40$ per for the Crap can races way back. They were fine until they got overhot and then went greasy. They also dried out and were rocks at the next race. I dont use falken anymore. I pay for Dunlops, DZ101 and Stars, and will run the Rivals or RS3 . The RS3 are cheaper and seem to run almost as fast as the Rivals.

Spec the max width, dont let it get into a tech battle.
Maybe spec "all 4 shall be the same size".
If the intent is cost containment , contain it.

I am happy to see new racers posting here . Welcome.
Please voice your tire concerns , and maybe how you came to race with SCCA. So that we have some idea how to do it better.
Thanks, MM

Greg Amy

12-05-2013, 09:53 AM

If you are going to have a "gentleman's agreement" per tires, have a small trophy /pizza party just for the guys on the right tires. Dont allow the HOHOs to eat any pizza.
So...you're recommending we shun them.

I need to do a test day on the Rivals I bought four months ago and see what this things are like.
Note that these tires are far, far, far better than anything we had when Improved Touring was born. But technology moves on...recall the first-gen RX-7 was in ITS and my old Rabbit GTI was a pretty competitive car in ITA...the real issue here is relative performance to the extent of what is compliant to the regs.

I think we should start a movement where no one is allowed to rebuild their engine...we only allow people to run junkyard engines. We'd all save a ton of money. (/tongue-in-cheek)

;)

- GA

Chip42

12-05-2013, 09:57 AM

So for those of you getting all excited about the "street tire revolution" I caution you: either change the regs, create a completely new class with tire-specific regs, or simply STFU when someone comes and races against you with a Hoosier tire and leave them alone. They're following the rules that you created.

Just sayin'.

- GA

that's why we're shooting down the middle - voluntarily sign up to a asub-class where 180+ IS the rule, but you are scored outside of the official event. you may run hohos and not play in our sandbox, I don't want to take away from the guys who can afford and have the talent to run up front, but I do want to throw a bone to the guys who are out there for fun without a real shot at a podium (for many reasons, many self imposed) and give them a way to have a shot at some sort of victory and save money doing it.

if the IT rules become 180+, then the whole concept of racing at a lower level of prep on cheaper tires for the fun of the sport dies off, because the guys who are running for the red jacket will be in the same list again.

and, FWIW, I wasn't getting stampeded because of my street tires, what passes were made on me were mostly because of some cobwebs and being gun shy after a few bad weekends. I ran with the same pack I ran with last time out on HoHos.

lawtonglenn

12-05-2013, 10:16 AM

that's why we're shooting down the middle - voluntarily sign up to a a sub-class where 180+ IS the rule, but you are scored outside of the official event...."

Greg's point is that IT7 is already a sub-class, but the tire restriction is NOT the rule, just informal

It seems silly to have a sub-sub-class, essentially IT7N (for Nittos) when

IT7 is already an NER sub-class (to ITA)
Almost everyone in NER IT7 is already running the Nittos
The NER IT7 group has the ability to change the IT7 rules (in NER) to spec the Nittos

and not only is it silly to have such a sub-sub-class, but since the IT7 group has refused to change
the regs, they have in effect refused to create or participate in this sub-sub-class, so really if
they don't want to do it, who would? ... How about the guy who wants to run IT7 with Hoosiers, should
he petition to start his own sub-sub-class (IT7H for Hoosiers) ? ... He doesn't need to, as he is
already winning!

I'm thinking of creating a sub-class ITSM (for Mazda) so Jon Farbman and I don't have to worry about
those pesky overdogs in the E46s :)

Glenn

Greg Amy

12-05-2013, 10:39 AM

I am happy to see new racers posting here . Welcome.
That's not the atmosphere you're portraying.

The 2014 NARRC battle in ITA has been epic so far: five good drivers in five different well-prepped cars (not all Miatas!) As we head into late September the excitement is palpable for the final clash at the NARRCoffs at Lime Rock.

Everyone is parked together in the B Paddock. As we wait for first session to start the "hanger flying" and ball-busting is going strong. Suddenly, we notice a van with Ohio plates coming down the hill, pulling a well-prepped ITA Miata on an open trailer...as he pulls closer to our paddock we spot it -- Hoosier tires. Everyone gets a little uneasy...

After first qually, fears are confirmed: our top-5 warriors are all within 0.3 seconds of each other...but 1.5s in arrears to the Ohio Miata. The warriors are doing the mental math, and realizing that the difference in points between 1st and 2nd - which is larger than than between 2nd and 3rd, and so forth - will very likely have an effect on the final championship. Lots of grumbling ensues.

Three of the guys pull up their pants and walk across to Mr Ohio's paddock.

"Hey, congrats on the pole!"

"Thanks! Love this place! My first time here, surprised I'm so competitive."

"Yeee-ah, about that. See, we here in the Northeast are all running 'street tires', one with high treadwear ratings."

"Oh! Sorry, I didn't know. Did I miss a requirement in the supps? Are you protesting me?"

"No, no! You're good, it's a 'gentleman's agreement, we're just doing it within ourselves to save money. But here's the rub: we've been racing like this all year, and this is our final marquee race, and the points are really, really tight...I mean like 'you are gonna affect the championship if you win' kinda tight."

"Um, OK. So what are you saying?"

"Well, yeee-ah, we were wondering: if you're leading on the last lap, would you mind pulling off into the pits, let us all go by? That way you won't affect our championship. We'd reeeally appreciate it."

"Are you asking me to lay down on the last lap and intentionally lose, after having towed all the way over here from Ohio to compete?"

"Yeeeeah, that's it, thaaanks."

"Um. No. No, I don't think I'm going to do that."

"Uh, what?"

"I towed all the way here from Ohio, after hearing about how cool Lime Rock and the NARRCOffs was. I'm on the pole. I'm faster than you. I'm likely to win. I'm fully compliant to the regulations. I am not going to lay down and intentionally lose this race. Sorry."

"But...!"

"No. Thanks."

Our fearless warriors walk away mad, shocked that someone would not capitulate to their obvious enlightenment. "That guy's just an asshole", they assure themselves.

Well guess what? That guy wasn't the asshole, our warriors were the assholes. Our warriors are the ones that decided everyone else should play to their rules instead of the rules. And they're all butt-hurt about it.

Moral of the story: you don't want to get butt-hurt, get Topeka to change the IT regs. Or create new classes for those tires. But if you want to win in ITA, plan on buying Hoosiers.

Everybody else already knows and accepts it. That's the rules.

- GA

mossaidis

12-05-2013, 11:11 AM

EH9racing

12-05-2013, 11:24 AM

The 2014 NARRC battle in ITA has been epic so far: five good drivers in five different well-prepped cars (not all Miatas!) As we head into late September the excitement is palpable for the final clash at the NARRCoffs at Lime Rock........

And they're all butt-hurt about it.

- GA

Greg,

A. Those imaginary ITA guys are competing for a Street Tire Championship and can go pound sand if they don't like that they don't get to win the NARRCoff. Sorry. But that is what they signed up for.

B. You are assuming that IT-ST will be handled like the NARRC IT7N group, however what Chip has set up down in CFR is very much different from a simple gentlemen's agreement. Cars are clearly labeled, points are awarded per grouping, IT normal vs. ITST. Also knowing Chip, he will talk/post about it alot, because Chip talks, so alot of people will know about it.

Greg Amy

12-05-2013, 11:29 AM

Some guys just like to go fast and look good on the results page.
So wait a sec: you're comparing taking full advantage of the rules (with an intent to win) as a desire to "look good on the results page"?

Really...?

Just to be clear, I'm not against this whole Tire Evolution, any more than I'm against CrapCan cars racing in Improved Touring. I'm an inclusive kinda guy, whatever you want to slip your dingy into is fine with me -- as long as you're not trying to force me to accept that as "normal" or force me to do it (contrary to the regs.)

That said, this whole movement is coming across a lot like some organic food proponents setting up a protest and petition in the parking lot of a McDonald's. People will walk by, say "hey, you're right, I like that", sign the petition, and then they'll walk into the McDonald's and get a Big Mac, supersized. Then as they waddle outside in gastronomic pain the protesters will berate them for their voluntary choices.

Next time, the diners will go somewhere else.

Don't be organic food proponents. They're dicks. You are free to offer alternatives but let other people make their own choices (within the regs).

- GA

Greg Amy

12-05-2013, 11:45 AM

...the IT rules should change to accommodate this 180+ tw tires as standard...

And as a member I'd actually support that*. But it's going to be a hard sell; dare I say something like "cold day in Hell"...? If something like that is to happen, it's going to have to come from within, and the way to do that is via sub-classes that, in the end, have higher participation numbers than the GCR classes. And it has to be nationwide, because it'll take only a very small handful of opponents to veto it.

Think you can do that? Then do it.

But don't f**k with the people that are following the current regs.

- GA

* Remembering back in "the old days" where we added a "discernible tread" rule because everyone was shaving the Rs down (@ ~$25/tire) to damn near the carcass..you're figuring that additional cost into your mindset of Utopia, right...?

Chip42

12-05-2013, 12:03 PM

Let me be VERY clear that the STC idea I'm peddling is all about making racing cheaper for the guys who AREN'T fighting for a championship.

I have NO desire to change IT rules to a new, higher TW number. I ENCOURAGE those of you out there who are less competitive and happy with your level of effort (i.e. you aren't winning and you are ok with that) to try the 180+ tires because A: they are cheaper, and B: they last longer, making them cheaper still, and C: they are just as much fun. because FUN is why the guy I'm talking to is doing this.

I'm not approaching ISC, Flatout, The Keane Bro.s, Dave Boles, or other championship contenders of any region about this. because they have the skills, the car, the wallets, and the drive to win. to them I say "go get 'em". to guys like me who simply aren't there yet, or have past that point in our hobby and are just out there having fun and not getting in the way, I say "here's a sticker, lets run STC!" and so far, they like the idea.

could someone sign up with a top level car and dominate us all? yes. but how is that different than now? I'll give you a clue: it's not. the "core" Street Tire group still wins because we're still running door to door and having fun, but on cheaper equipment, meaning we can do it more often. all we're racing for is fun. we identify ourselves and set up a sub points system just to spice it up a little. we don't even have ashtrays to fight for, just bragging rights at the beer party.

I think you are making a mountain out of a small ant mound.

Ron Earp

12-05-2013, 12:06 PM

Nice example tGA. Balance is good. Yes, the IT rules should change to accommodate this 180+ tw tires as standard. That is, if IT is really a regional-only, entry-level, low-cost class SCCA claims it to be.
.

Then lobby to get the rules changed. Don't make some gentlemen's agreement in the paddock that circumvents the rules. It's almost like what some of you are proposing is nested layers of competition so everyone is a winner. Is that what we've become? Tier 1 - Race tires, Tier 2 - shaved/new 200TW tires, Tier 3- 200 TW tires

And, be sure you're ready for what will happen when you get the rules changed. You're still going to have the best prepped teams on the podium, and best prepped might mean new shaved and properly cycled street tires for every race.

And when you get those rules changed, are you going to consider some wheel size changes for IT? 15" 205s might be great for a 2100 lb ITB car, but they don't work so well on a 2700 lb RX7 at 185 rwhp.

Greg Amy

12-05-2013, 12:10 PM

I think you are making a mountain out of a small ant mound.
Maybe. Probably. But I've seen what can happen with initiatives like this (when not running as discrete classes), where everyone (both sides) gets all butt-hurt, and it's not what I'd like to see across the board. Let's do it your way, see how it shakes out.

Rotards, change the freakin' regs!!!! It goes right along with your philosophy, and will attract more competitors. - GA

XelderX

12-05-2013, 12:51 PM

tim240z

12-05-2013, 01:06 PM

Another point to be made about reducing costs that I've heard from current competitors is that the street tires cause less wear and tear on other components on the car. Brakes and wheel bearings/hubs last much longer further reducing costs.

Not too sure about brakes. Our brake wear was as consistant on BFG rivals as a decent set of take of HoHos... But this is a Zcar we're talking about.

Ron may be able to chime in, but we got about 4 hours out of a set of R4 Porterfeilds (Break in ,3 hour enduro and P then Q at Sebring.) There wasn't much left after that.

Now as far as hubs and bearings, I could see that as data has shown less cornering Gs on 180+ tires.

Flyinglizard

12-05-2013, 01:12 PM

gran racing

12-05-2013, 01:24 PM

Suddenly, we notice a van with Ohio plates coming down the hill, pulling a well-prepped ITA Miata on an open trailer...as he pulls closer to our paddock we spot it -- Hoosier tires.
For those that might think this won't happen, it most certainly does. Twice at Summit Point I've had a talkin' to. Once just in general since I qualified well and the other guys were in the middle of a championship, another cause I had two sets of just heat cycled ho-hos. Some did not like that. It was a long tow for me, a competitive class, and I wanted to do my best. Eventually it will happen. Even if on street tires, those drivers are racing, right? Otherwise we'd be doing HPDEs.
The other challenge up in the N.E. is how many regions there are in such close proximity. If I go to the street tires, go to the Glen, many entrants are not a part of my region will be there. No chance of winning. Right now, I want a shot of winning or to at least do the best I can to have the greatest chance of winning.
Lets not forget the DOT tire rule so we stay away from those expensive slick tires. Eventually it catches up.

You're still going to have the best prepped teams on the podium, and best prepped might mean new shaved and properly cycled street tires for every race.
It doesn't sound like Chip and some others are trying to move up in the ranks, but get the drivers to run less expensive tires. You are correct, the drivers will continue find ways to enhance the tires they have available to them.

Another point to be made about reducing costs that I've heard from current competitors is that the street tires cause less wear and tear on other components on the car.
That is absolutely true. When I was going much slower...what wear items? As I progressed and begain using sticker tires, so did the wear items become much more evident.

georgethefierce

12-05-2013, 01:25 PM

As someone that will be new to racing with the SCCA this coming season the NER 7 guys have lowered the barrier to entry with their sub-sub class to the point where I can justify turning both ways, I like it and especially for a class that isn't very popular on the whole it makes perfect sense to get these cars out of the barns and allow people of limited budget like me to give it a shot on cheap tires.

I also get that people can afford to run at the pointy end and should be allowed to do everything within the rules to get there, I see no reason to limit all of IT to a street tire, there are some great battles regionally up front and I appreciate what those guys do to be that quick (running fresh rubber being one of those things).

IMHO something like the street tire initiative can work (at least in the short term) with a like minded group of guys that get "it", it's too bad that people get "shunned" but what is the % of shunned to new/old blood that couldn't be out there if they couldn't run on the cheap? just a nOObs $.02

gran racing

12-05-2013, 01:31 PM

George, IT has always been a place you can run on the cheap. I started off in ITA (the car was later moved to ITB where it should have been) using $25 a piece old Spec Racer Ford tires. I still had an absolute blast and was able to run right around mid-pack. This whole IT-7 thing in the NER is kind of cool and all, but it's not some amazing revelation which hasn't already existed.

By the way, I LOVE being able to go to the manufacturer, click on items I need and know they actually have them in stock. ;)

GTIspirit

12-05-2013, 01:32 PM

Very true. The entire car will love the lower grip tires.

Most of the worlds' amateur racing is done on 180 or higher TW tires. The USA has unique tires and even the HoHo are cheap in the bigger picture. Years of selling my book allover the world has enlightened me as to the rest of the world's racing cost. VW Cup EURO, DR , all Japan etc , Most are very hard tires.

GA, of course, as long as HoHo are legal, some racers will choose speed over . it is expected.

For sure mountain from ant bite.

I am all for changing the rule. makes a lot of sense.

I'm somehow missing something here. Why is a rule change necessary?

If you want to run street tires in IT, just do it! Or? There's nothing that prevents it now, right?

And if someone wants to buy wins by prying their wallet open for the purple crack, let them. Let them have that satisfaction, that with their R-comps they beat someone on street tires.

And if street tires were mandated in the rules, what's to prevent someone from buying a freshly set of heat cycled and shaved tires for every race? Just to gain that little bit of perceived advantage to try and buy a win. And if the competition is really that close that every minuscule advantage matters, where's the satisfaction in winning by outspending someone?

Is it really that important to be on the top of the podium, or are you racing for fun? And if you're just racing for fun, because you have a real day job, is the racing any less fun if you use street tires instead of R-comps?

Personally, I'm all for a standardized sticker to proclaim you're running street tires, to shun those people on the purple crack. :p

gran racing

12-05-2013, 01:42 PM

Seriously??? Sorry, but that cracks me up. Based on that, you must be running an entirely stock car with old crappy OEM suspension, never tuned the engine, no aftermarket parts what-so-ever or even bother to have an alignment done. Otherwise you are right there trying to "buy a win".

georgethefierce

12-05-2013, 01:44 PM

gran racing

12-05-2013, 01:50 PM

I absolutely understand your perception. Totally. Many of us have been there, so you're certainly not alone.

Greg Amy

12-05-2013, 01:51 PM

And if someone wants to buy wins by prying their wallet open for the purple crack, let them. Let them have that satisfaction, that with their R-comps they beat someone on street tires.
EXACTLY the attitude I'm railing against, on my apparent "mountain from an ant hill". It's attitudes like this that will create the exact opposite intended reaction from your target audience (how far away are we now from comparisons of desire for faster tires to penis size...?)

You sir, are an organic food proponent.

Just pointing out.

- GA

Chip42

12-05-2013, 02:25 PM

and again - you keep the rules the same, and encourage the guys who like the idea of running cheaper tires to run in some sort of cohesive "group" to help push them over the edge to doing so. no one wants to show up on lesser equipment, even if they know they are slower they can close the gap somewhat by being on the same tires as the front runners. BUT, if you arrange for a group to opt for street tires, suddenly it's fun. but the caveats have to be clear - this is just a group that identifies themselves as the ones who AREN'T trying to win a title - you knew us as mid pack, now you will know us as ... well mid pack with some new stickers. we agree to be slower for less money in a group of like minded racers and to not get butt hurt when someone beats us. we promise, we're used to it. Everything runs in the same class. same rules, just including a minimum TW in the OPTIONAL sub group.

If a guy on streets wins points toward the regional title, great. wins the title, even better. odds are he's running in a poorly subscribed group, though, and this effort doesn't really pertain to him. One upside could be that his winning on streets pulls existing cars out of garages to run in the class's STC. more cars = win for all.

If a guy on streets takes it super seriously, all he can accomplish is beating a bunch of guys who take the joy of racing more seriously than the joy of winning while simultaneously hampering his own efforts toward a recognized title as the rest of the fast cars are on R-Comps. and the "points race" in the street tires group gets out of sorts. oh darn, a meaningless title gets "stolen". meh.

guy shows up in an area dominated by streets on R Comps and upsets the championship. no one gets butt-hurt, they voluntarily signed up to run in a group that purposely ISN'T competitive against full prep cars.

If you make the rule to run streets locally, you'd better get it in the sups AND know that this is not the same effort the STC is pursuing. run the logo, I don't care, but you are doing it wrong.

If you make this the national rule then BFG and Dunlop will thank you, Hoosier will make a purple crack 180TW, and life will return to normal. whatever. not my intention.

no one is shunned, some might be asked to consider using their considerably higher talents and resources to pursue a meaningful reward, but if they want to continue beating the guys who run for best of the rest, that's fine.

Either way, IT marches on, one big happy family with a stable rule set.

Dano77

12-05-2013, 02:31 PM

WOW I go to the ski shop and look what happens.

Im out, not throwing gas on this one.

matt batson

12-05-2013, 02:36 PM

When I get back on track, I will run street tires.
Once I get to the point where I am within a couple of seconds or so of the leaders I can then decide if winning a race or winning the arcc or run offs is important enough for me to pony up for Hoosiers

If it isn't that important to me, then I will just continue racing on cheaper street tires

I think that the system as is works just fine

This is all for fun.....right?

tim240z

12-05-2013, 02:47 PM

gran racing

12-05-2013, 03:06 PM

Chip42

12-05-2013, 03:56 PM

Chip, maybe you should use something like what you wrote as the general series summary? I think you have the right attitude about it and sharing this with others will at least lead them in the right direction and set expectations.

I had the same thought while typing that. consider that the STC mission statement, rev 1.

dave, you're a journalist - care to offer some edits? I'm an engineer and tend to get way too long winded explaining simple things. i know I do this, but I cannot seem to stop it.

gran racing

12-05-2013, 04:00 PM

More like a guy who loves racing and cars then happens to write about it in my off time. :) But sure, I'd be happy to put a draft together. Then you and others can further edit it.

gran racing

12-05-2013, 04:33 PM

Not pefect but a start. Additional suggestions without making it too much longer?

The purpose of the Street Tire Challenge is to run less expensive tires with a cohesive group of like minded racers. We recognize that these tires are slower than other options, but our racing objectives are to have fun and try to make this hobby less expensive.

Participants of the Street Tire Challenge (STC) agree to be slower for less money not be upset when someone beats us whether it be an R compound race tire or modified (typically shaved) street tire. If you win a race or a series title, great! Yet the odds are participants of the STC will be beat by drivers using race tires. If you take winning seriously, maybe this is not for you.

The Street Tire Challenge is not attempting to become a new class nor are we trying to change the rule-set of the class we race in. Cars will still be subject to the same rules. The STC simply adds a minimum tire wear (TW) in an optional sub-group. We also recognize that other drivers not using street tires will have an impact on the STC “championship”. We purposely have decided to run in this group which is not competitive against fully prepared cars.

The primary reason we are not seeking this to be recognized as the national rule is of our concern if that happened, manufacturers might make a race tire which is still expensive, yet complies with the TW rating.

If you decide make the rule to run street tires in your region, it should be in the supplemental regulations and know that this is not the same effort a part of the STC nor is it the same effort that the STC is pursuing.

Fun and more affordable racing – this is what defines the Street Tire Challenge.

forestdweller37

12-05-2013, 06:22 PM

This thread reminds me a lot of the long and at times painful transition from R-comps to street tires in Solo. It was a colorful story if anyone wants to review it.

SCCA really needs some centrally administered street tire road racing opportunity. Preferably without further diluting the talent pool. The word is out as to how well the new breed of street tires handles road racing conditions (just fine, thank you). It would be better for SCCA to get there sooner rather than later.

I think I'll write a letter.

Chip42

12-05-2013, 07:00 PM

I personally DON'T want IT to be the "official" place to run street tires, and I don't want to dilute the club with any more classes.

that's why I opted to try this route to encourage people to run together, have some sort of points system and "winners" but with the emphasis on fun, not being a red-coated champion whatever. as long as a slower, cheaper option is legal AND OPTIONAL in IT, this works. once it's 180TW for all, the execution of the idea dies off somewhat/completely.

Dave - nice work, thanks. I'll tweak here and there and make it a little bit more irreverent and call it a day.

BTW - still looking for clever suggestions for that tag line, sticker order goes in next week so hurry!

StephenB

12-05-2013, 08:23 PM

I like Greg's name...

"Street Tire Revolution"

Stephen

StephenB

12-05-2013, 08:46 PM

As someone that DID and HAS raced on street tires with other people on Rcomps it is really hard not to get the "what if" attitude. Endurance racing is one thing but unless you get a large enough group of street tire people to run with its tough in a Sprint Race when you know you could be so much faster.

I like to race but I think I like to win just as much, not just race with the person next to me, that may be the reason I have a hard time not thinking "what if". I love the cost savings but when the weekend cost is so much to begin with it makes it even harder not to spend the extra amount to stay up.

Stephen

RSTPerformance

12-06-2013, 01:59 AM

As many of you know Dunlop has supported my efforts this year, I am proud to have worked with the company to prove street tires are a great option to affordably get you on track having fun! I am looking forward to some more events next year... With that disclosure out of the way it is hard to be unbiased but I truly think that SCCA racing needs to make it easier (cheaper) for a new racer looking to race at an amateur level, even in sprint racing. Having incentives for people to race and potentially win on a more affordable tire should be a priority IMO as it is the single most expensive part of most people's race weekend/budget. NASA and other organizations encourage this with rules that allow people running streat tires to get a weight break (or "r" tires give you a penalty depending if you are a half full/half empty person)... I think it is a long way off before SCCA could ever be open to something like this but I wish it wasn't. Hopefully in endurance racing (Devil In the Dark?) we may see some effort to help encourage new teams with smaller budgets to compete.

Raymond "Plug: Dunlop Direzza ZII, best track day tire ever!" Blethen

PS: YES I do recognize that some cars already can't or have a hard time meeting min weight... Thats another issue on its it's own.

downingracing

12-06-2013, 08:03 AM

As a 15+ year racer/IT driver, this is my .02¢:

I started racing with an older Showroom Stock car. Lucky to be at the back of mid pack on a great weekend (for me) with used tires. Once I was driving the car close to limits, I started the upgrades. Over the years I built the car, added new tires to the mix and became a better racer. I built it to the level I wanted and am as competitive as I want to be. I'm faster than some, but not as fast as others. My tire budget is 6 tires a year (Hankooks for less than $1k a season) and they are a great race tire. (That $1k is no where near my biggest expense for a race season.) I could buy new tires every weekend (or every session) if I wanted, but the 6 usually get me 16-18 sessions each (4-5 weekend a year).

I'm on a Chump team and we have run one event with tw200 tires that were great for what they were. We have run over 16 hours on the tires and they still look new. They are great for Chump racing, but I have no interest in using them on my club racing car. Three wide in turn one at Mid-Ohio on the Hankooks is awesome! Three wide in turn one at Mid-Ohio on the tw200 tires isn't something I'd look forward to (or even probably try). Those tw200 tires don't do what the race tires can.

I wonder how a set of these tires would do shaved down to 1-2/32 and maybe some special treatment...

JeffYoung

12-06-2013, 08:09 AM

So for the Street Tire proponents here, what is the real end game?

To just run your cars for fun on Street Tires (because you will not be competitive) in existing IT classes?

Or to slowly change the culture of IT so that we change the rules to ban R compounds?

Either is fine, I just want to know where you are going as I decide what to do. I think the diea that in the long run these tires will be cheaper is dumb, honestly. Folks will do just what they have done before: tire companies will get into a war to make a stickier and ultiatemly more expensive and not as long lasting tire at the same TW rating, racers will shave and throw tires away after a few cycles, and so on.

This isn't the answer to "how to make club racing cheaper." So long as we understand that, and what the goal is, I agree the discussion is a good one.

joeg

12-06-2013, 08:36 AM

I sort of agree with Jeff...people will just start shaving, "truing" and treating these "street" tires--as well as frequently buy new ones (there is no arguing that a new, fresh tire--no matter what the compound--will be better than an older one) such that the perceived savings will not be that great.

Currently, the best tire deal is the SM Hoosier, but clearly its size does not work for everyone. The SM H20 Wet is even a better deal, as it is cheaper than a 13 inch. It would be neat to try and get Hoosier to get some other R6 sizes to that price point.

Don't know what the solution is, but tires have always been the biggest racing headache.

gran racing

12-06-2013, 08:49 AM

In order for Hoosier to get that price point, they received a multi year spec tire deal. One tire size for all. Much different than doing all at that price point.

Jeff, what we're hearing are two different outlooks. There are those in Chip's camp, then others more extreme. For those in the more extreme stance, I look at this like the Toyo tires in SM. Don't know, maybe that's not the same for some reason?

Regardless, this is a good discussion and am pretty sure we all agree on making this more affordable.

adamjabaay

12-06-2013, 09:15 AM

as a new ITA guy, coming from Lemons racing, I'd agree with the FUN aspect of street tires on these cars....they are great

I ran an hpde on my lemons star specs in my ITA car, and it was 2 and 3 seconds off my pace at that that track....but it was more "entertaining"...a bit looser, etc

I plan on running cast off SM6 on it this year anyway (an 89 crx si, so the size works nice), and due to being a tight-budget guy I'll likely keep running those, or whatever SM runs on, for years. Cast offs are even cheaper than street tires, if you mount your own tires especially!

I'd be FINE with IT on street tires as a rule, but I'm obviously fine with it as it.....this is about fun for me.... If I ever have the skill and budget to be a regular winner I doubt my feeling would change much

downingracing

12-06-2013, 09:26 AM

...I ran an hpde on my lemons star specs in my ITA car, and it was 2 and 3 seconds off my pace at that that track....but it was more "entertaining"...a bit looser, etc...

This was part of my point. These tires are 'fun' and can make driving more of a challenge (which is fine for lemons or chump with the endurance format), but the 'looser' part will make them a challenge in a sprint race. For a track day or enduro - sure.

Chip42

12-06-2013, 10:03 AM

as dave said - there's stuff like my STC effort: do what is legal already, but in a group, save money, stay mid pack, have some fun, and as George carlin once put it: "be white, be proud, be lame, and get the hell off the dance floor". if you start running for the class podium while on street tires, you're doing yourself a disservice if you don't switch to a faster tire.

then there are the people who think treadwear limits should be the rule in IT. that's fine, I think it would work well in that the tires are fast and safe and can create good racing, but I disagree that it will be a solution more than a short term change. you have to have dark to appreciate light (cue your favorite 80's fantasy movie) - once everyone's on the same tire you're back to square 1.

the evolution of the tire's capability will continue no matter what. todays' R comp will be met by tomorrows 180TW and so on. we don't need to accelerate that any more by forcing the top level amateurs on to them, nor by forcing hoosier's hand in getting into the market by taking away their IT market share with a rules change.

Ron Earp

12-06-2013, 10:28 AM

Slapped together a quick spreadsheet to get a handle on costs for a race weekend. Clearly one could estimate the cost difference between running R vs S tires just on the tire costs alone. But that doesn't give you a good perspective on total costs or tire costs in relation to other parameters. Making some assumptions, as we all must, I come up with about a savings of 25% if an A or S car were to run street tires for a three weekend year (be honest, a lot of you don't get out more than that as shown by the SARRC points spreadsheet).

http://www.gt40s.com/images/Lightning/rs.JPG

Not inconsiderable by any means. However I don't think the barrier to entry into SCCA racing, or more racing for some, can't all be assigned to the cost of tires. A savings of 25% is certainly welcome, but we're still shelling out close to $1000 per weekend and that is for only running a double SARRC. Run more races and the entry fees climb, particularly for ECRs.

And not factored into the calculations are truck and trailer ownership costs, which as we all know are quite expensive. No racing, no need for truck and trailer. And there isn't any maintenance or repair on the race car shown, nor funds for development on the car.

Racing is expensive. Everyone running street tires isn't going to change that.

This isn't the answer to "how to make club racing cheaper." So long as we understand that, and what the goal is, I agree the discussion is a good one.

I'm also interested in the ultimate goal. This idea of flying under the radar with "paddock agreements so that we don't change the rules and dont' attract the attention of the tire companies" is silly.

Flyinglizard

12-06-2013, 10:54 AM

The fast SM guys are running sticker Hoes each qual session. The HOHOs slow down over 1 sec per lap @ Sebring and PBIR @ the 4 th HC.( larger than driver noise , hence the stickers )
@ PBIR the left side Hoes bareley finish a 30 min race without cording. These guys use 2- 3 sets each double race weekend. Not 1 set per year.
Contrast the falloff of the 180 tires, less than .8sec .(other than Falkens).Inside or very near the driver induced data noise.

Many sessions before cords. Not a lot of fall off over the life of the tire.

The tire wars will always be a large part of racing. Shaved stickers will always have some advantage. The best funded guys will run them.

To imply that 180 tires are less safe than Hoes is just bad information. The same crap happens only at a slightly slower speed.
My crapcans and the SM run the same tires so that I can use the 180 tires, Goodyear slicks, Hoes, etc on the SM, Goodyear slicks,etc. The car does a little more "ooching" drop throttle onthe 180 tires than the Hoes. That is all . 4-6 sec slower .
180 tires can last well into 20hrs. Esp if it is large and the setup keeps the outer edge cool.
The longest lasting setup, is not the fastest setup.

6 of the 180 tires should get anyone through 20 hrs of hard racing. ( maybe not PBIR)

lawtonglenn

12-06-2013, 11:03 AM

Extrapolating Ron's numbers for someone who does more racing,
and amortizing the street tires only over the year's races

3 weekends x 2 races = 6 races : $2690/$3158 = 85%
6 weekends x 2 races = 12 races : $4880/$6316 = 77%
9 weekends x 2 races = 18 races : $7070/$9474 = 75%
12 weekends x 2 races = 24 races : $9260/$12632 = 73%

The limit is actually 70% as the R tire cost in Ron's model is 30% of the total,
so as the S tire value goes to zero, that's the best that can be accomplished

.

downingracing

12-06-2013, 11:08 AM

?.. To imply that 180 tires are less safe than Hoes is just bad information. The same crap happens only at a slightly slower speed....

Anyone who has run a race tire and a tw180+ tire will say that the tw180+ tire is sloppy and doesn't perform like the race tire when driver hard. (If they don't agree - they aren't driving the race tire anywhere near their limit). That doesn't mean it is less safe, but it does mean that you can't drive the car as hard as you could on the race tire. They do last forever and are great for endurance racing or a track day.

downingracing

12-06-2013, 11:13 AM

Ron, thanks for the budget numbers. One thing to consider when looking at a budget is that everyone does it differently. My food/beer costs per weekend (including my mother feeding everyone donuts for breakfast and serving lunch both days) is often 10x the number you list. I only get 2-3 weekends from a set of brake pads/rotors and I have hub expense to include for each weekend (I mean I should - I often ignore the bearings because I'm lazy). :)

tim240z

12-06-2013, 11:13 AM

I can say the 180+ tire is a lot safer and predictable then some of the take offs we've run in the past.

Greg Amy

12-06-2013, 11:14 AM

Slapped together a quick spreadsheet to get a handle on costs for a race weekend.
You're expecting this, so allow me take umbrage. I run Hoosier R6s for a minimum of 10-12 cycles each. And I get them free*.

For example, here's my tire logs for the first pair of tires from 2013:
- Heat cycled on rear, NJMP qually
- NJMP race front
- LRP front, 4 quallies then flipped [GA: flipped on rim to even out wear inside-to-out]
- LRP front, 4 races
- WGI, 1 qually front
- Scrapped by Hoosier East, WGI, discernible tread remaining**

Note these two are the only tires I scrapped in 2013; I either have the remaining ones mounted on wheels or have new ones in baggies, ready for 2014. In 2013 I did two Majors ("double National") weekends, one double Regional weekend*** (Lime Rock Park), the the Runoffs at Road America (three 1/2hour quallies and a 45-minute race).

Or, the last set I had left over from 2012:
- NHMS, 3 test sessions front
- NHMS, 2 qually front
- Flip on rims
- NHMS 45 min National, rear
- SPR, 25 min qually front
- SPR, 1/4 race rear (DNF, engine)
- LRP, warm up and National race, front
- WGI Natl qually, rear
- WGI Natl race, rear
- POC 2 qually sessions front
- Scrapped by Hoosier East, pretty damn worn out. No cords showing.

Point being, they're not as fragile as many seem to think.

The fast SM guys are running sticker Hoes each qual session.
And the pointy-end Street Tire Revolution (c 2014, Kakashi Racing) guys are going to shave them down to within an inch of their lives and replace them on a regular basis, possibly after each qual session.

Racing is expensive. Everyone running street tires isn't going to change that.Amen.

- GA, a full quarter-century into his quest for that magic bullet that makes racing cheap...

* Limited number per year, but I'm also eligible for the tire contingency based on results.

** Only reason I scrapped these was because I wanted new ones for the front, but I had run out of wheels to cycle tires to. Embarrassment of riches...

*** I also raced the double Regional at Pocono, but that weekend was a combination of rain tires and 2012 Ho-Ho leftovers. I also used 2012 leftovers on the rear at LRP.

lawtonglenn

12-06-2013, 11:26 AM

Extrapolating Ron's numbers for someone who does more racing,
The limit is actually 70% as the R tire cost in Ron's model is 30% of the total,
so as the S tire value goes to zero, that's the best that can be accomplished

.

however, Ron's 12 cycles are not how we use our tires, and we certainly
don't do all the machinations Greg does. We run our race tires for heat cycle 1-6
and then they become our qualifying tires for heat cycle 7-12
so, instead of in Ron's example where the R tires are 30% of the total,
in our usage it is 38%

the problem is, the guys I am racing against (Farbman, Capizi, et al) are
on stickers EVERY WEEKEND... so they are getting 2 race heat cycles per set,
and if we keep the other numbers the same, their R tires are 48% of the total cost.

all that being said .... I would love to run on S tires ... but I would
only do so if everyone was running on S tires ... our fields are small enough
now that having S sub-classes and R sub-classes is of no interest to me ... I crave
the competition at the front of the pack where the prep, the equipment, and
the racing is most challenging

so, if I can beat them (I sometimes do) by spending half what they do (tires
are only a part of the cost differential) I have succeeded. If these semi-pro
teams don't show up, then my goal is to push the track record ... all of which
points to R tires ... and so with a rule change to 180+ everyone would be on S
tires, which would be great, but we'd also have to have a separate track record
list for Street tires

.

downingracing

12-06-2013, 11:30 AM

I can say the 180+ tire is a lot safer and predictable then some of the take offs we've run in the past.

Yes - new 180 to unknown condition/used race rubber... Compare new to new and get back with me. :)

Chip42

12-06-2013, 11:56 AM

guys - this is ALL about midpack guys in large fields. no one is suggesting from my camp that the streets are as fast or capable as Rs. if they do they are looneytunes.

shaving etc... only becomes defacto norm when you require people to run these things. leave it optional, and the guys who choose to run them will do so for the cost savings, not a lower bar trophy. you make sure of that with culture (see IT7 guys in NE) and NOT having a recognized championship for IT ST.

cost savings of streets vs takeoff Rs (all that some of us can afford to run on a regular basis) is actually negative, you'll pay more for a set of new streets than for the equivalent number of races' worth of used Rs in many cases. but the increased consistency and reliability of the streets makes that cost worthwhile, IMHO.

Ron's analysis is pretty good - but a lot of the tire wear is car and track dependent, so not apples to other's apples. either way, streets offer a way for the guy who ISN'T running at the pointy end for whatever reason to run on the cheap. they are already legal, so there's no reason NOT to run them in that case. all my effort is doing is trying to get a small group in a large field to agree to keep the relative bar level by ALL switching over and identifying themselves as having done so. (keep in mind we run 12-20 ITB cars on a regular basis in CFR, and similar numbers of A and S with R at ~5-10.) this is not a trend setting initiative. we aren't trying to show the rest of you the light. it's really more of a way to afford more seat time to develop skills or just enjoy Door to Door racing at the level one such racer can afford.

as I said before - I really hope these tires DO NOT become the norm, at least in club racing. the norm in that experience effort they talked about last year? sure, fine, whatever.

Greg Amy

12-06-2013, 12:01 PM

leave it optional, and the guys who choose to run them will do so for the cost savings, not a lower bar trophy.
Disagree with you, Polyanna. Nature - and racers - abhor a vacuum. If someone sees an opportunity to fill that void - e.g., a lower-bar trophy - they will take advantage of it.

To argue otherwise is to argue that no one will get serious about "lower cost" classes/categories...like Improved Touring. And yet, the whole point of the discussion at hand is about controlling cost escalations within that very same category...

- GA

Edit: offered differently, if you are successful you will eventually be a victim of your own success. The only way you can "win" is to "lose".

If I were still in Improved Touring - and there's always possibility that could happen - and I found that ITS-T was only a couple guys having fun, I'd stick with Ho-Hos in ITS where the competition was. However, if I found that ITS-T was a popular viable class, with a lot of competitors, then I'd get a set of 200TTW tires and go play. However, I'd also have them shaved to increase performance, and I'd cycle through them a lot faster -- intentionally. And I'd be faster.

So why don't the NE IT7 guys do it? 'Cause as of right now, it's a handful of friends that know each other, all out to have fun. For the most part, except within themselves they've been pretty much ignored. But that's changing. The very moment that Dan starts getting successful in his whoring of the class, you can expect to see someone coming in with max-performance-tuned Nitto tires, swapping them out regularly. And top prep, no exhausts falling off, running out of fuel, or tires pressures not being set correctly (;)). And everyone starts to get all butt-hurt again...

gran racing

12-06-2013, 12:26 PM

The fast SM guys are running sticker Hoes each qual session. The HOHOs slow down over 1 sec per lap @ Sebring and PBIR @ the 4 th HC.

Oh come on. I like the street tire thing but some of this is just rubbish. First off, just because many of the SM drivers with $50,000 or uber expensive cars are doing it doesn't mean it's right.

They slow down over 1 second per lap? So in a 15 lap race, they're 15 seconds a lap slower? I know, they should be using street tires and win! :rolleyes:

My racing budget for a 6 race weekend event now would be much more since I have a race engine, use better fluids, change items more frequently, and so forth. But when I was new to racing, did it just for fun and didn't care about winning, I was able to get 6 race weekends and 4 HPDEs for around $3,365 total. I had no money so putting more in wasn't even an option. Too big of a list and explaination, but the link is below. (And before people nit pick it, it's the sampe summary of primary costs.

http://www.goaheadtakethewheel.com/club-racing/annual-racing-budget-sample.php

Now... I use the ho-hos for around 6 cycles in "important races". Sometimes I'll do the proper heat cycle during the qual session. If during the two hot laps I haven't gotten it done, I make the decision out on track whether or not to pit. Usually I get it done and plan well.

Then I use them for track days where I get many more sessions.

ajmr2

12-06-2013, 12:32 PM

Lookin good, Chip and informative discussion. You'd better get those eyebrows back on. That's a second/lap!

georgethefierce

12-06-2013, 12:37 PM

So why don't the NE IT7 guys do it? 'Cause as of right now, it's a handful of friends that know each other, all out to have fun. For the most part, except within themselves they've been pretty much ignored. But that's changing. The very moment that Dan starts getting successful in his whoring of the class, you can expect to see someone coming in with max-performance-tuned Nitto tires, swapping them out regularly. And top prep, no exhausts falling off, running out of fuel, or tires pressures not being set correctly (;)). And everyone starts to get all butt-hurt again...

I agree with this 100% let's just hope it lasts a little while :)

Ron Earp

12-06-2013, 12:43 PM

You're expecting this, so allow me take umbrage.

Yes I did. I put it up there to incite discussion. Hopefully the pedantic here will realize its purpose and not contrast their own programs in every post.
If I were to do that I'd find that my racing program tires are a pretty minor percentage of my race weekend if I were to factor in all my development costs as I continually refine my car and driving.

Cheap tires ain't gonna make racing cheap.

Greg Amy

12-06-2013, 01:04 PM

I agree with this 100% let's just hope it lasts a little while :)
...says the Bringer of Doom... ;)

Greg Amy

12-06-2013, 01:15 PM

Hopefully the pedantic here will...not contrast their own programs in every post.
I wasn't being pedantic; I was simply ensuring that the minor details were accurate.

By the way, I commend you for your refreshingly proper use of "continually" versus "continuously".

- GA

Ron Earp

12-06-2013, 01:27 PM

By the way, I commend you for your refreshingly proper use of "continually" versus "continuously".

- GA

Hmmm, wasn't even aware I pulled that off.

I was trying to head the breakdown posts off at the pass. I figured it was just a matter of minutes before Lizard broke down a LeChump weekend and told us how fast Chumpers were, and that teams made money racing crap cans because they ran street tires.

jjjanos

12-06-2013, 02:10 PM

Claiming that there will be cost savings from running street tires is the equivalent of saying that when you squeeze a balloon, you've decreased the volume.

Great...
I'll use that money for the hot snot final drive for my vehicle or finally pull the trigger on a real ECU or, if I have the ECU, I'll get the custom exhaust or do more Friday test days before the event because I always drive better if I do them or I'll freshen the motor more often or I'll get the blingy shocks or....

And if you are serious about racing you will do that too. And if you aren't serious about the racing and are a mid-pack driver... then just run the old freaking race rubber and instead of having a dice for 8th in a 16-car field, have the same fun having a dice for 13th in a 16-car field.

There are plenty of ways to piss away money on a racing car. Eliminate one and you just push the money elsewhere.

Chip42

12-06-2013, 02:20 PM

Disagree with you, Polyanna. Nature - and racers - abhor a vacuum. If someone sees an opportunity to fill that void - e.g., a lower-bar trophy - they will take advantage of it.

To argue otherwise is to argue that no one will get serious about "lower cost" classes/categories...like Improved Touring. And yet, the whole point of the discussion at hand is about controlling cost escalations within that very same category...

- GA

Edit: offered differently, if you are successful you will eventually be a victim of your own success. The only way you can "win" is to "lose".

exactly - we DON'T have a real championship, no trophies, and DON'T care about winning - that's why this group would run these tires. I know everyone is reading that saying "gah! why bother if you can't win??" but in any large field you have a pretty large number of entries for whom a win is beating the guy they run with. we've all been there before, some people are happy in that place. that's the market. show up on shaved tires and run away with the STC win. OK, have fun with that - we just don't care about winning that much and that's really outside the scope of what we'll all have agreed to do, in the name of fun. absolutely people care about low cost classes - popularity will always raise the bar and that higher bar always comes with more cost. this is just a way to group the midpack guys who want to save some coin running for the same non-win we're running for now.

for me, this is as much about the reduced cost of track time as anything else. track days are great, but nothing is like wheel to wheel racing and doing it in my racecar against my peers and being able to judge myself against them real time, rather than on separate days. I'm NOT going to win, not any time soon. I'm not that good and I don't have enough awesomesauce in my car, yet. I need more seat time seat time seat time. this makes that easier for me, and for the other reasons I've mentioned its attractive to some others. in the mean time, as JJ points out, I'll take the cash I'm saving (that amount I'm not putting back into additional entries and associated costs) and put it into the car. my intent long term is to get BACK onto R comps and run with the big boys.

if NO ONE joins me, I'll delight in passing them on streets. double win for me.

someone comes in and takes it all seriously, I'm in the same place I am right now, and still enjoying the lower cost.

I can't loose because I expect to not win. so yeah - I win, in a sense.

jjjanos

12-06-2013, 02:27 PM

exactly - we DON'T have a real championship, no trophies, and DON'T care about winning - that's why this group would run these tires. I know everyone is reading that saying "gah! why bother if you can't win??" but in any large field you have a pretty large number of entries for whom a win is beating the guy they run with. we've all been there before, some people are happy in that place. that's the market. show up on shaved tires and run away with the win. OK, have fun with that - we just don't care.

Then why create these rules at all? If your goal is to do well against people in your 'same' league, then without doing a damn thing you can...

1. Run street tires and have your race with less-prepped, less-skilled cars running competition tires.
2. Run old competition tires and have your race with less-prepped, less-skilled cars running competition tires

:shrug:

Ron Earp

12-06-2013, 02:29 PM

Greg Amy

12-06-2013, 02:42 PM

Soooooo....why not just take the IT car and run it in LeChump?
You just had to go there, didn't you...?

Where's that DIAF icon...? :dead_horse:

;)

Ron Earp

12-06-2013, 02:56 PM

Well, why not? Is it because LeChump is all ruled up now and we want to run "grassroots" stuff?

I don't understand the goal here, and I think the reason is that the multitude of street tire proponents do not all share a common goal.

Three months ago it was some street tire folks wanting an SCCA class. Now it is street tire people wanting to form an ad hoc group that "is just visible enough so people know it exists and everybody will come race with them, but low-key to not attract attention of the powers that be". If "everybody" comes to race with them then by definition "the powers that be" are going to make changes in the rules and we're right back to square one.

JeffYoung

12-06-2013, 03:52 PM

Which is why I asked my question.

My "position" on this stuff depend a whole lot on what the goal is.

And I see many goals, ranging from the reasonable (Chip and Dave) to what I consider unreasonable.

ajmr2

12-06-2013, 04:07 PM

Claiming that there will be cost savings from running street tires is the equivalent of saying that when you squeeze a balloon, you've decreased the volume.

Yeah, but if I let the air out of your tires, I might beat you someday! Doesn't matter which tires you use.

:024:

lawtonglenn

12-06-2013, 04:27 PM

...They slow down over 1 second per lap? So in a 15 lap race, they're 15 seconds a lap slower?...

I'm pretty sure he meant that after the 4th HeatCycle, the tires yield lap times
1 second slower then during the first four HCs. So, for example if you were running
1:01's at Lime Rock for the first 4 HCs, then the next few HCs would yield 1:02's

Our experience is close to that... maybe 0.8 sec at 4 HCs, 1.5 sec at 6 HC on a
61-75 sec/lap track like LRP or NHMS

.

gran racing

12-06-2013, 04:34 PM

a win is beating the guy they run with.

One of my favorite "wins" was beating a friend in maybe 16th place? Ironically he was driving an MR2. Both of our cars low prepped. Actually, that was better than some of my actual race wins.

Ron, this would be the goal if I were to do it (and truthly said, I won't be at least next year): We often race with drivers who on any given race weekend, put down about the same general times and finish pretty close. If all could agree to spend less on tires, that wouldn't impact the finishing positions. Less money directed towards tires.

One certainly can argue that more money would be spent on the race cars. Maybe, maybe not. Don't know for sure. In some respects I'd feel better getting a blue printed transmission that will last several seasons than a couple sets of tires. Each to their own and it's entirely options.

Chip42

12-06-2013, 05:59 PM

Soooooo....why not just take the IT car and run it in LeChump?

Longer races, Check.
Running "ad hoc class within a class", Check.
Street tires, Check.
Cost less, Check.
Lots of people to race with, Check.

because something fun. I have no desire to run my car in LeChump. nothing against them, but that's not where I want to run my ITB car.

yeah, we'll have a "winner." we like the idea that we can have a winner, and beat each other. but as soon as people start doing everything to become the winner, it gets ruined. so keep it low key and keep it for fun. Still IT cars, still running IT races, just at the prep levels we are happy with and the budget and skills we have available, which we realize is not front-runner level. hell, I'm probably the most "I wanna go faster" person in the group - for me it's about seat time at a lower cost IN my run group. when my car and I get better enough, I'll "graduate" out of my own idea, bolt on some purple crack, and shoot to run at the front.

why is this so controversial?

StephenB

12-07-2013, 01:01 AM

why is this so controversial?

Ya I don't get it. Why do people care? I think it is great that a few guys/gals may get together and race each other for fun. Who cares if we agree on the cost savings or the reasons they are doing it. I don't think it affects any of us. IF someone has a different idea then share that but why all the negativity?

PS: my idea is different which is to double dip in ST and run with some friends on street tires for the entire season. Basic concept is that the only extra cost is entry fees and a little maint.

Flying lizard... have you raced on street tires and r comps? I am guessing your going by word of mouth. I have and they are not as safe when racing on the edge at the limit. I personally have done it in back to back sessions. Street tires get hot and greasy faster and have an edge. They can easily be brought back but you simply cannot drive as hard as long as you can with r comps. And seriously 30 min and the tires at cord? Really? I also don't believe the 1 second lap time loss after 4 heat cycles. Maybe I am in denial but I just can't grasp that.

Stephen

StephenB

12-07-2013, 01:07 AM

I'm pretty sure he meant that after the 4th HeatCycle, the tires yield lap times
1 second slower then during the first four HCs. So, for example if you were running
1:01's at Lime Rock for the first 4 HCs, then the next few HCs would yield 1:02's

Our experience is close to that... maybe 0.8 sec at 4 HCs, 1.5 sec at 6 HC on a
61-75 sec/lap track like LRP or NHMS

.

What about nhms?

RSTPerformance

12-07-2013, 02:52 AM

Saw this on another forum discussing Street Tires... Lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCnHczLfXQc

People are talking goals, IMO we should never change the rules to not allow "R" comp tires... People running enduros, those just getting into this and people racing on a budget should consider street tires though.

If you running enduros it will save part of your wallet and your car and you can still be competitive with the benefits that do exist with racing on a street tire... I think we have proven that.
If you are just starting spend the extra money you save making yourself and your car faster, then invest in tires for qualifying and race day. Use the street tires for track days and practice sessions learning a new track and testing the car.
People racing on a budget, use the tires to save money and enter more races, you won't be last because of the tires.

In my perfect world SCCA would adopt some sort of competition benefit for running on street tires just to help reduce the costs and encourage more participation to the growing population that can't quite afford to race regularly.

Raymond "just my opinion, hope you enjoyed the video flash back!" Blethen

Greg Amy

12-07-2013, 09:23 AM

Ya I don't get it. Why do people care?
....why all the negativity?
I think that's the thing: you really don't get it, with "it" being what an attractive idea this actually is at its core. And, and a result, how popular the idea could be. Which, as a result, will eventually feed upon itself and loop back to exactly that same "problems" this whole idea is trying to address.

It's not "negativity", my friend; negativity would be saying "this is a stupid idea". MNo one has even implied that where I can see. At worst, call it "reality" or cynicism" where age and experience is trying to point out the realities of what's happened in the past and the probable end game of what you're doing.

Good luck, have fun. I hope you win. Errrr...lose. Errrr...well, you know what I mean. - GA

lawtonglenn

12-07-2013, 09:46 AM

What about nhms?

If you don't see a degradation in lap times after 6 heat cycles, on Hoosiers
or Hankooks, then I would guess you are not driving at the limit :D

lawtonglenn

12-07-2013, 10:13 AM

...negativity would be saying "this is a stupid idea". No one has even implied that...

that's because it is not a stupid idea :)

all the discussion (and controversy) is about

comparing and contrasting various goals people are trying to achieve
comparing and contrasting various actions to take to achieve the goals
discussing how each possible action addresses, or fails to address, each goal
trying to predict the unintended consequences of each action
trying to build consensus

In my life experience, problems that have difficulty in achieving consensus
on what the actual goal is have little chance of achieving consensus on the
action plan (google "Affordable Care Act")

The trick is to recognize that there will be a variety of goals that people
are trying to achieve, and craft an action plan that adequately satisfies
each camp, maybe not fully, but enough to allow each camp to buy in to the
compromise. In order to convince each camp, it is necessary to flush out and
address any unintended consequences (eg "people will shave the street tires") so
people feel comfortable with what will actually happen. In a situation as
complex as this, I see this discussion as iterative, dynamic, and interesting.

That being said, I will re-state my goals, which will match some of yours, and not
match others. But know that I will evaluate each potential action plan through the
screen of "how well does that action (and it's unintended consequences) meet MY goals?"

I want to race as fast as I can within the ruleset
I want to race on a level playing field
I want to strive to win, continually improving myself and my equipment
I would love to save money

For me, an informal agreement on street tires satisfies only #4, while an
official rule change satisfies #1,2,3,4

.

JeffYoung

12-07-2013, 10:26 AM

Glenn, that's a good post, very clear, well said, and at the same time why I'm dubious (not negative, just dubious) of the whole ting.

I think Greg is 1000 percent correct that in the end, the move to street tires won't save money. People will adopt practices and habits that significantly minimize the savings. And Ron is even "corrector" in saying that if "making club racing cheaper" is the goal of all this, then this approach, Street Tires, really isn't going to make a big enough difference to attract more folks, etc.

Which leads me to why I asked what the goal is. Because if the whole point is to save money, making a rule change to accomplish 1, 2, 3 and 4 above fails because, well, 4 ain't happening.

I've got a set of Rivals. I am going to try them out. But more and more at its core I just don't see the advantage of this. Yes, I like my HoHos and there is some bias there BUT I also think making changes to the rules to achieve a goal that simply can't be achieved with that change isn't a good idea. And more and more, what I think the end game is here is in fact a rule change, whether that is openly expressed or not.

lawtonglenn

12-07-2013, 10:49 AM

indeed Jeff, I agree with most of your sentiments

I think one point I was trying to make is that my goals 1,2,3,4 are not necessarily
your goals, or his goals, or her goals. Some people will have goals in a
different order 4,1,2,3 ... some will have altogether different goals.

Your point that I disagree with is about saving money. While I do agree that
it won't save alot, especially for people at the front, what I believe is that
for people midpack, in the back, or with a different goal ordering (4,1,2,3) ...
it may save enough to get them to race one more race, and for people thinking
about joining, it may be perceived as enough of a potential saving to get them
over the edge.

But for me, everyone I'm racing against has to be on street tires or I won't do it...

.

Flyinglizard

12-07-2013, 11:44 AM

105 $ tires that last 12hrs cost less than 181$ tire that last 2hrs. Hoe can anyone say that the cost will not be less. ?.
The pointy end will have the same faces but they can eat better( and more importantly, drink better) if they race on 180 Tires.

Raymond; I have run my 99 SM on the following tires. SM6 stickers,Dunlop Star Z1 (2012, not the 2013 version), Dunlop DZ101, 300TW. 13in Goodyear slicks.
We beat this car @ Sebring about 300miles per track day/weekend average of 1 a month, plus races . 101% on the Star Specs . "Flick and mat" is SO. Tons of fun. Still working on very deep trail brake. The 180 tires keep you on the edge for sure.

The turn in speed @ T1 Sebring is about 90-91 Hoes, apex at 91-2, shows 1.3ish G
180 Turn in is 85, apex @ 84, Shows 1.11G( the fall off at apex may be due to the fast heat build and slight loss of grip due to the agressive toss @ turn in. The max G is shown just post turn in as the tire stops sliding.

Take off Slicks , 88,apex 90. 1.25ish G
The G Load is on concrete , the pavement G load is about .1-.2 less for all turns.
Al data shows plus 3-4mph at the track out bump.

The Early (freeish to me) Falkens would grease up and go away withthe fast drivers. The new Dunlops Z2 wil also.
The SM6 can run about 3hrs @ Sebring @ 98%, (very low slip angles.)2:43 lap times)
If you flick the car into T 1< ( my favorite thing to do in the world) the SM6 tires will last about 2hrs. @ 241lap times)
The 300 TW DZ101 will run all day @ 101% . Some tread chumking will happen on full tread tires , bigger car.
The SM6 @ PBIR was good for 40min and would not make the sat race of 20min. My car/driver was about the norm. fresh skins for the race. 3 laps test and target pressure set, swap sides, race 40 min, throw away.
PBIR is very hard on tires. Not just the Hoes.
My car on Goodyears also needed 2 LS tires for Sun am.

The VW Golf runs HP and Chump and rental track rat,. It has never run on Hoes. Goodyear slicks and 180 tires.
The Chumpcar, Nissan 300ZX VG30 runs only Chump, 265/40/17 Stars.
The faster,( Michaels car)VW Scirocco runs only SCCA HP, no Hoes.
The Chumpcar turbojetta 190ishhp , 260Tq, runs on all of the tires except Hoes.
So yeah I have pretty good data on tire wear. 20hrs on the 180 is norm, @ 98%. 10hrs @ full speed with rotation.

After running the way back SCCA 12 hrs and 24hr races with 24plus tires, it was very hard for me to go a a 14hr race with less than 10 tires. 6 tires per 14hrs is very doable . I still take 10 or more tires tho.

Flyinglizard

12-07-2013, 11:54 AM

Foregot; Lechump rules state that ITcars run with out any weight. This was in response to drivers that wanted to double dip .
Same for the lower Prod cars.

I am not sure how it has worked out. I have not looked around for results. busy building a roller dyno and trying to make a living.
Sorry to miss the bait tossed at me Fri.

Ron Earp

12-07-2013, 06:53 PM

but as soon as people start doing everything to become the winner, it gets ruined. so keep it low key and keep it for fun. Still IT cars, still running IT races, just at the prep levels we are happy with and the budget and skills we have available, which we realize is not front-runner level.

It seems that you basically want to split off a portion of the racers into the street tire initiative, but only a selected portion - the mid to back of the pack guys and the guys that are not uber-competitive. This group is to run street tires for the street car cup, while the other folks are to keep running ho hos and run the regular IT race.

You don't want a rule change to mandate street tires because then everyone has to use them and we have front, mid, and back of the pack groups again, just like we do now in IT.

Is that about right?

It would appear you envision a tight race with other street tire minded racers and wish to have a street tire finishing order within the larger run group. But what happens when a new racer shows up and runs new street tires, and uses a fresh engine, or has an impeccably setup car with fresh engine, tires, and driving skills? Are you happy with his prep level and is he allowed into the street car cup? Can he get a street burger in the paddock after the race? Or is he shunned? What happens when five new racers arrive, with shaved street tires, can they be part of the street car cup? I don't think it will be very long at all before "it gets ruined".

I'm not against a street tire initiative. But like Jeff, I want to know what the end game here is, and like Glenn, I'll run street tires but only if everyone is running them a la a IT rule change.

StephenB

12-07-2013, 07:58 PM

My goal for running street tires was and still is...

1. Allow me to run an endurance race on 1 set of tires, at a reasonable and safe speed. This allowed me to race more affordably, with less crew to change tires, without worrying about botched pit spots trying to change tires, and race a 12+ hr race at a significant savings almost within my budget.

2. Demonstrate to others that may be interested the performance potential and that these street tires work and can be raced on if they want to for whatever reason they have.

3. Get rid of the perceived barrier some of my friends have that you HAVE to spend money on r comps to race in IT.

At this point I met all my goals and had a ton of fun doing it!

Next year my goal, if I can afford the entry to double dip, is to have fun double dipping in ST using 1 set of street tires for the entire season with a few friends. Possibly running extra weight on my car to make me equal to them in ITS with my ITR car. The only goal of that for me is to race against some of my friends in a safe environment that I can't get on my own for less money... so Ya I am using SCCA as a place to play with my friends since I can't afford to rent the track alone... we will of course be following all SCCA rules and if others race with us that is fine by us.

No rule changes, no trying to convince the world to join us, no drama, just fun.

I hope this clarifies my goals.

jjjanos

12-08-2013, 01:25 AM

why is this so controversial?

The 2002s are having problems keeping up with non-antiques. Or are having problems doing it without spending a lot of $$, so let's have them run their own regional class.

Non Mee-otter ITA cars can't compete with the Mee-otters without spending a boatload of money developing their cars, so let's have them run their own regional class.

Next thing you know, there's going to be 26 different classes running each weekend.

jjjanos

12-08-2013, 01:31 AM

that's because it is not a stupid idea :)

I would love to save money

And that's why it is a stupid idea. It won't save money. It will save money this year and then we'll be back to where we started.

You are squeezing a damn balloon. The money will just get spent elsewhere on the car and then we'll have stickers for people who run junk yard heads that haven't been machined to the limits of the rule and then we'll have stickers for people who run cheap, but after-market shocks and then we'll have stickers for people who run the stock final drive... wash/rinse/repeat.

Chip42

12-08-2013, 02:31 AM

You are squeezing a damn balloon. The money will just get spent elsewhere

like on entry fees.

Its a goal anyhow.

not trying to create a division, shun or otherwise split anything - just an effort to make running cheaper tires more attractive by encouraging a number of people to do it. Ron pretty much summed it up, but with the ongoing idea that there's some shunning involved. as I see it, there is not. it just sucks to be the guy who bolt son streets and falls to the back of or farther behind the clump of the field he ran with before. get that group to run streets and you all fall back and keep on doing what you're doing, for a bit less cash per race.

that's it.

so what if someone show sup with a new sets of shaved every weekend? go get'm tiger, lemme know how that works out for you.

Or, to put it in terms you all seem to be using - continue things as usual, and imagine a scenario where someone shows up with more money, skill, investment and/or prep and beats the mid pack guys. yup, IT racing is ruined. oh wait, no, it's not.

exact same thing. only in this case the midpack guy intentionally handicapped the one portion of the car that is the lions share of the consumables cost, rather than by NOT prepping the (insert allowed modification here) to the limits.

Ron Earp

12-08-2013, 08:50 AM

it just sucks to be the guy who bolt son streets and falls to the back of or farther behind the clump of the field he ran with before. get that group to run streets and you all fall back and keep on doing what you're doing, for a bit less cash per race.

Okay, you state that it sucks to be the guy who falls to the back of the pack for running street tires. Money is an issue and you want to save a bit of cash.

But within a few months of the inception of your rule or experiment, it is likely you'll again fall back to the rear of the pack. Another racer is going to show up with street tires and want to go faster than you. Racers want to go as fast as possible within the rule set permitted, even if that is an ad hoc or localized rule set.

I don't see how you won't end up disappointed in the outcome of your proposal. If it becomes popular then it'll become a victim of its own success and IT as a whole will change, which is fine. Even if it doesn't result in a rule change it is highly unlikely participation will be limited to your your core group of racers, and you'll be disappointed to find yourself running right back where you started.

that is the lions share of the consumables cost, rather than by NOT prepping the (insert allowed modification here) to the limits.

As we showed many posts ago, tires aren't the lions share of the cost of racing. Consumables, sure, but not racing as a whole. Racing is expensive, and even if the tires cost nothing pursuit of the hobby has a significant financial impact on the household budget.

Dano77

12-08-2013, 09:59 AM

My goal for running street tires was and still is...

3. Get rid of the perceived barrier some of my friends have that you HAVE to spend money on r comps to race in IT.

No rule changes, no trying to convince the world to join us, no drama, just fun.

.

Your guys haven't been paying to much attention to the IT7 Series have they.

Sold another car yesterday, with 100tw Toyos on it. He is prepared to be shunned.

Dan The IT7 Pimp Daddy

lawtonglenn

12-08-2013, 10:35 AM

...pursuit of the hobby has a significant financial impact on the household budget.

:o don't say that out loud.... she might be listening!

RSTPerformance

12-08-2013, 10:49 AM

Xian

12-08-2013, 11:03 AM

And that's why it is a stupid idea. It won't save money. It will save money this year and then we'll be back to where we started.

You are squeezing a damn balloon. The money will just get spent elsewhere on the car and then we'll have stickers for people who run junk yard heads that haven't been machined to the limits of the rule and then we'll have stickers for people who run cheap, but after-market shocks and then we'll have stickers for people who run the stock final drive... wash/rinse/repeat.

Okay, you state that it sucks to be the guy who falls to the back of the pack for running street tires. Money is an issue and you want to save a bit of cash.

But within a few months of the inception of your rule or experiment, it is likely you'll again fall back to the rear of the pack. Another racer is going to show up with street tires and want to go faster than you. Racers want to go as fast as possible within the rule set permitted, even if that is an ad hoc or localized rule set.

I don't see how you won't end up disappointed in the outcome of your proposal. If it becomes popular then it'll become a victim of its own success and IT as a whole will change, which is fine. Even if it doesn't result in a rule change it is highly unlikely participation will be limited to your your core group of racers.

As we showed many posts ago, tires aren't the lions share of the cost of racing. Consumables, sure, but not racing as a whole. Racing is expensive, and even if the tires cost nothing pursuit of the hobby has a significant financial impact on the household budget.

You guys (for example) keep saying *will* where it should probably be "may" or "could".

I suspect that Chip knows his sandbox better than anyone out of region and out of class. I also suspect that you guys are exactly the sort of people that *would* ruin the concept of running street tires. Why? Because you want a 10/10ths car... there's absolutely nothing wrong with that but it runs counter to the whole Street Tire Revolution that he's touting. People like you (and me "back then") are the ongoing problem with a Rehional class like IT (insert pond size argument). IMO, the class was never conceived of as a place for folks to go take "pro level" prep and investment to but that's the culture that has developed post-Speedsource/Turner/etc and what we've effectively got now and in the future. We've got this further supported by rule makers that can't/won't look at data for reclassifying a car until every bit of development has been done. I completely "get" that that's what we get when a class becomes popular enough *unless* it has an ingrained culture that limits development (kinda like the IT7 guys). The limitation can be via good, old-fashioned shunning or via diminishing returns in rule exploitation (STC will more likely fall into the latter).

The best thing that cold happen for STC or whatever it's called is for everyone at the front of the grid to turn up their noses, proclaim it won't work, and then ignore it. To you guys it won't matter. You'll continue beating (and ignoring) the middle to back half of the field and you'll go right on having your hard fought battles with the front 25-30% of the field. It'll be 100% seamless to you but for the guys further back, who *aren't* spending as much on the Total Race Experience as the front runner's spreadsheets indicate, they'll save some $$ and have a good race amongst themselves. Just like now but with an additional sense of comradery and accomplishment. Heck, maybe they'll even make it to an additional race during the year due to real or perceived savings. And when they do, the fields will be that little much deeper so that the winner gets an extra free Hoosier.

Flyinglizard

12-08-2013, 11:39 AM

Yuse guys foreget that IT started with 1000$ cars with Yokohama 001 or 008 tires that lasted for a couple of years. Much fun and way cheap. A good 10 MPH slower everywhere.
Then Goodyear year made the GS and it went down hill from there.

Greg Amy

12-08-2013, 12:00 PM

Then Goodyear year made the GS and it went down hill from there.
Though not directly relevant to the discussion at hand...my reaction to the above statement is..."ummm, nope".

C'mon, you were there, you know better. Prior to the introduction of the Goodyear GS-CS at the Runoffs in 1991(?)* there was already a serious tire war going on for DOT classes. DOT was the direction we were headed, certainly for all newly-introduced classes. And Showroom Stock was a King of the Hill category; auto manufacturers were involved, tire manufacturers were involve, lots of money was involved. Hell Porsche and Corvette were beating the crap out of each other, and Firehawk and World Challenge (or its predecessor) were raking in serious attention and bucks.

If one were to point to a specific 'turning point' in the tires wars, it would probably be the Yoko A001R, maybe the Pirelli P7 before that. Point is, the unshaven DOT "slick" was not the turning point for these tire wars, it was the inevitable result of it. And that is exactly what we're trying to point out: no matter how good the intentions, you just never know who's going to get serious about it and find a way around that intent.

- GA

* I was a 'contract' Goodyear driver that year. GY showed up at Road Atlanta with these tires, unannounced (we had no idea they were coming) and blew us away. Many protests followed, to the point where we were wondering if we'd have any tires for the Runoffs. Eventually SCCA agreed that the molded tires with a couple grooves met the letter of the regs and allowed them. And the damn burst...

Edit: Interesting link on the history of the DOT tire: http://farnorthracing.com/street_tire_faq/

JeffYoung

12-08-2013, 12:55 PM

I -- with a carbon fiber splitter on a freaking Triumph -- take full responsibility for my contribution to the IT tech escalation wars.

BUT -- I don't think there is anything new about this. Popular classes almost always generate this kind of development. Neither ITA or S are "bolt on and win" classes anymore and haven't been since the late 90s in my view.

I guess the one thing I'd throw out there for anyone looking at S and A and getting discouraged by this is that as opposed to the early part of the 2000s, it's NOT race prep shops driving the development. It's pretty much individual guys putting a ton of owrk into cars in their own garages. Meaning, you can do this too. If you have the time and the commitment to do it.

Moving to street tires isn't going to solve that problem, which to me is the biggest impediment to people getting involved and staying involved in IT racing. SM and SRF are great classes, but it is much easier to "get" a front running car. Not cheaper, easier.

IT? You're pretty much going to have to build it and develop it. The days of the turn key RX7 or E36 or CRX are over, as newer cars --- without top race shop support -- have come out to play.

I personally like where IT is and where IT is going. To me, at least in S/R/A, it's the best multi-marque racing out there and is essentially "Prod lite." Yeah, we hated that concept for years but maybe we should embrace. We are far more of a tinkering than a bolt on class, and have been for much longer than we will admit.

But we stick to core principles that keep the costs down -- stock body panes, stock suspension geometry, essentially stock motors.

THe prod rules, even limited prep, to me still have too much flexibility for spending big dollars, and if prod fields ever got huge again you'd see high dollar cars. Not knocking guys like Kevin R. or his efforts there at all, and I think what the Prod guys have done is oustanding in changing the perception of their class away from being one of constant rule shifting and rewards weight.

But the IT ruleset, including the use of R comps, seems to me to be the most attractive out there, and to generate the best multi-marque racing. THat's why I'm perfectly fine with folks running street tires in IT so long as the goal is not a (in my opinion) misguided culture change based on illusory (again my opinion) perceived cost savings.

The "balance" that creates great racing in R/S/A right now is a fine line and I have to admit not entirely intentional. In a lot of ways, we (the ITAC and the IT community) are just lucky that things worked out like they did. I do perceive some risk that switching to street tires (particulary as others have mentioned without fixing the tire diameter and width rules, and even then older cars will suffer) changes that balance in an unknown way.

You guys (for example) keep saying *will* where it should probably be "may" or "could".

I suspect that Chip knows his sandbox better than anyone out of region and out of class. I also suspect that you guys are exactly the sort of people that *would* ruin the concept of running street tires. Why? Because you want a 10/10ths car... there's absolutely nothing wrong with that but it runs counter to the whole Street Tire Revolution that he's touting. People like you (and me "back then") are the ongoing problem with a Rehional class like IT (insert pond size argument). IMO, the class was never conceived of as a place for folks to go take "pro level" prep and investment to but that's the culture that has developed post-Speedsource/Turner/etc and what we've effectively got now and in the future. We've got this further supported by rule makers that can't/won't look at data for reclassifying a car until every bit of development has been done. I completely "get" that that's what we get when a class becomes popular enough *unless* it has an ingrained culture that limits development (kinda like the IT7 guys). The limitation can be via good, old-fashioned shunning or via diminishing returns in rule exploitation (STC will more likely fall into the latter).

The best thing that cold happen for STC or whatever it's called is for everyone at the front of the grid to turn up their noses, proclaim it won't work, and then ignore it. To you guys it won't matter. You'll continue beating (and ignoring) the middle to back half of the field and you'll go right on having your hard fought battles with the front 25-30% of the field. It'll be 100% seamless to you but for the guys further back, who *aren't* spending as much on the Total Race Experience as the front runner's spreadsheets indicate, they'll save some $$ and have a good race amongst themselves. Just like now but with an additional sense of comradery and accomplishment. Heck, maybe they'll even make it to an additional race during the year due to real or perceived savings. And when they do, the fields will be that little much deeper so that the winner gets an extra free Hoosier.

Chip42

12-08-2013, 02:07 PM

Okay, you state that it sucks to be the guy who falls to the back of the pack for running street tires. Money is an issue and you want to save a bit of cash.

But within a few months of the inception of your rule or experiment, it is likely you'll again fall back to the rear of the pack. Another racer is going to show up with street tires and want to go faster than you. Racers want to go as fast as possible within the rule set permitted, even if that is an ad hoc or localized rule set.

I am not "at the back of the pack". far from the front, yes, but by no means the last car, EVEN as the only guy on streets (SARRC races excluded. as one of 2 or 3 B cars I usually am the last one there, even on Rs). and I have a path to improve myself and my car to close that gap some. the STC is part of that, as it actually saves me money. other people like the idea, too. some of them are old guys who show up with the same car they've been running for ages and just want to race, others might be newer to the sport, less financially able, or simply see this as an attractive thing to try. they may talk about "real IT lap times" or just honestly get that this is the level of development they can support for themselves, or be working on developing a car and driver and cut tire costs to aid in that pursuit. whatever the case, they are, at least for the time being, mid pack too. and this would save THEM money.

how much money varies, certainly. but some of the vagueness of reality doesn't fit on your spreadsheet. lock them up? spin? rains? STC is more forgiving of driver error in that it doesn't kill the tire, and actually seems to be a good learning tool by forcing clean running to get max speed but also being forgiving of oversteps. it's also a bit easier to catch when you do slip up, and many of them are fair rains. less replacement, longer lasting in the first place, and one less mounted set of tires. more savings.

anyone who starts last and ends last shouldn't be surprised to be last. if your expectation is not to be midpack to last, you wouldn't be part of this experiment.

I completely get the evolutionary arguments, but even if this took off, became a national or defacto rule (which again, I am NOT advocating)lower cost longer lasting tires for all means cost savings for many. there will be those who shave and optimize cycles and end up spending more than they do now. fine - you can't stop a racer from being a racer, but you can recognize that a lot of guys out there aren't on header design 3 in season 2. more like "same thing I bolted on in '95". they don't think like you and are already going slower on lesser equipment. this changes nothing in that regard.

and I do not begrudge the evolution of IT into "prod lite" I don't necessarily LIKE it but rules cant stop that from happening, only culture can, and a culture of competition will not. great. I am amazed by the ITS fields in the SEDiv, I am blown away by efforts like Ulbrik and Keane and underwood in ITB, doubly so by team Earpstang and the TR8. it's awesome. but it is NOT the entry level racing series it once was and along with SM, the economy, and life's ebbs and flows, I think the evolution of IT is one reason the car counts are down in IT in so many places. what can be done about that? very little from a rules standpoint. the rules are good now, and we're all proud of the stability of them and the fact that you CAN legally and affordably race in IT, just no where near the front in any well subscribed field. but from my perspective, anything we can do to foster a SUBGROUP of that old "bolt on" culture is good for the club as it could mean more cars, lower costs, and happier racers.

meanwhile, I'll be inching my way up to insane development status as I can afford to do so, so that I can join you front running types in standing on my achievements as measured in wins and records, rather than the successes I'm currently shooting for of helping people have fun and enjoy our club and our wonderful, stable, and balanced IT rules.

Xian

12-08-2013, 02:27 PM

Jeff, you know I love you man, but there are *very* few people who can do what the front of the pack IT are doing. You're a single guy who makes good money and chooses to spend a big chunk of it on his racing program. Notice I said "racing program". Not "hobby". Guys with closer to average jobs and 2.5 kids don't have a "program"... they have a hobby that has to fit in between family life, fiscal emergencies, and the reality of only getting to the track a handful of times a year.

Everyone who's brought this "pro" mentality to IT has hurt it in the long run. I know I'm guilty of having done it. You are. Dr Earp, Kirk, tGA, Andy, etc, etc... We're all guilty of pushing the development envelope and the resulting expectation of what it takes to run up front. I think the goal here is to try and turn back the clock a little... Make it easy, make it fun, and *try* to make it cheaper. Will it work? Hell if I know but I don't see that it'll make things worse.

I -- with a carbon fiber splitter on a freaking Triumph -- take full responsibility for my contribution to the IT tech escalation wars.

BUT -- I don't think there is anything new about this. Popular classes almost always generate this kind of development. Neither ITA or S are "bolt on and win" classes anymore and haven't been since the late 90s in my view.

I guess the one thing I'd throw out there for anyone looking at S and A and getting discouraged by this is that as opposed to the early part of the 2000s, it's NOT race prep shops driving the development. It's pretty much individual guys putting a ton of owrk into cars in their own garages. Meaning, you can do this too. If you have the time and the commitment to do it.

Moving to street tires isn't going to solve that problem, which to me is the biggest impediment to people getting involved and staying involved in IT racing. SM and SRF are great classes, but it is much easier to "get" a front running car. Not cheaper, easier.

IT? You're pretty much going to have to build it and develop it. The days of the turn key RX7 or E36 or CRX are over, as newer cars --- without top race shop support -- have come out to play.

I personally like where IT is and where IT is going. To me, at least in S/R/A, it's the best multi-marque racing out there and is essentially "Prod lite." Yeah, we hated that concept for years but maybe we should embrace. We are far more of a tinkering than a bolt on class, and have been for much longer than we will admit.

But we stick to core principles that keep the costs down -- stock body panes, stock suspension geometry, essentially stock motors.

THe prod rules, even limited prep, to me still have too much flexibility for spending big dollars, and if prod fields ever got huge again you'd see high dollar cars. Not knocking guys like Kevin R. or his efforts there at all, and I think what the Prod guys have done is oustanding in changing the perception of their class away from being one of constant rule shifting and rewards weight.

But the IT ruleset, including the use of R comps, seems to me to be the most attractive out there, and to generate the best multi-marque racing. THat's why I'm perfectly fine with folks running street tires in IT so long as the goal is not a (in my opinion) misguided culture change based on illusory (again my opinion) perceived cost savings.

The "balance" that creates great racing in R/S/A right now is a fine line and I have to admit not entirely intentional. In a lot of ways, we (the ITAC and the IT community) are just lucky that things worked out like they did. I do perceive some risk that switching to street tires (particulary as others have mentioned without fixing the tire diameter and width rules, and even then older cars will suffer) changes that balance in an unknown way.

JeffYoung

12-08-2013, 02:59 PM

No worries, you're a smart guy and I value your opinion.

I'd slide, somewhat, your word "can do" though to "want to do." Racing and development take a whole shit ton of WANT. Dr. Earp and Jeff G. (who is a Dr. himself, no slight intended) are examples of the WANT. Steve U. as well.

I just don't see how you rule make any of that out. And I also think that the pointy end efforts in Chumpemons are classic cases of huge WANT to investments of time, etc. And thus not really that different from us.

I'm not opposed to people running street tires in IT at all. I just don't think they will change the cost calculus much, and on the culture side, well, it will take more than just tires to do that. And I guess I do see a potential street tire rule as an example of something that could hurt. Like I said, we have a very finely balanced multi-marque several hundred chassis race class right now that with some issues aside (ITB I acknowledge) works. A move to street tires could hurt that, badly.

I'm not saying "no." I think Chip is doing a great job with this and his reasons for doing so are pure. I'm just saying tread carefully and don't advocate for rule changes based on false or illusory cost savings potential.

Xian

12-08-2013, 03:20 PM

I completely agree that the "want" has to be there as well... but you can't get there on "want" alone anymore than you or I can "want" our way into a competitive F1 seat. ;)

Help me understand... If we can't rules ourselves into a cheaper place (and there's been no suggestion that there will be a rules rewrite for street tires) and we can't change the culture of "want"ing to build a top car or win and the tires won't make much of a difference to the costs then exactly *how* might this be an example of something that could hurt the category. Either it makes no difference (as has been suggested) or it is potentially something that could be embraced by IT "culture" and drive a change from within. And if there is a "change from within" are you against it because it's different or counter to what serves you best?

FWIW, I say some of this ^^^ tongue in cheek but really, what's it matter if a handful of folks want to run cheap tires and earn bragging rights amongst eachother? Does it take away from your accomplishment in some way? What if they put together an agreement to run worn out Take-Off RA1's or SM Hoosiers? Does that make it any better or worse?

jjjanos

12-08-2013, 05:46 PM

You guys (for example) keep saying *will* where it should probably be "may" or "could".

Yeah right. When the fleet is town, the bars "could" see more business and the prostitutes "may" be walking bowlegged for a few days.
Insanity: Doing the same thing over and expecting different results- Albert Einstein

The goal isn't to go slower. The goal is to spend less on tires. That leaves a googolplex of other ways to spend that money.

Moreover, name one freaking successful series where people didn't spend to the limit of the rules?

I suspect that Chip knows his sandbox better than anyone out of region and out of class. I also suspect that you guys are exactly the sort of people that *would* ruin the concept of running street tires. Why? Because you want a 10/10ths car... there's absolutely nothing wrong with that but it runs counter to the whole Street Tire Revolution that he's touting.Pull the other leg, it's the one with bells. How many thousands of dollars do people have in their $500 POS Le Chumpmons cars?

People like you (and me "back then") are the ongoing problem with a Rehional class like IT (insert pond size argument). IMO, the class was never conceived of as a place for folks to go take "pro level" prep and investment to but that's the culture that has developed post-Speedsource/Turner/etc and what we've effectively got now and in the future.And production was never conceived as a category where people spent more on a single season's development than I've spent in my entire racing career. That fart has already left the rectum. This proposal isn't going to stop the consumption of beans. It's just simply saying that we eat the vegetarian beans instead of the pork and beans. We're still going to be sitting around the camp fire letting 'em rip.

The best thing that cold happen for STC or whatever it's called is for everyone at the front of the grid to turn up their noses, proclaim it won't work, and then ignore it. To you guys it won't matter. You'll continue beating (and ignoring) the middle to back half of the field and you'll go right on having your hard fought battles with the front 25-30% of the field. It'll be 100% seamless to you but for the guys further back, who *aren't* spending as much on the Total Race Experience as the front runner's spreadsheets indicate, they'll save some $$ and have a good race amongst themselves. Just like now but with an additional sense of comradery and accomplishment. Heck, maybe they'll even make it to an additional race during the year due to real or perceived savings. And when they do, the fields will be that little much deeper so that the winner gets an extra free Hoosier.Excellent. They want to run to mid-pack to DFL using street tires and underdeveloped cars. Where is the need for a new set of rules to make this happen? Under the existing rules set, they can still run mid-pack to DFL using street tires and underdeveloped cars.

Chip42

12-08-2013, 05:52 PM

Excellent. They want to run to mid-pack to DFL using street tires and underdeveloped cars. Where is the need for a new set of rules to make this happen? Under the existing rules set, they can still run mid-pack to DFL using street tires and underdeveloped cars.
yup. exactly. no new rules, just a small incentive. that's the WHOLE idea.

Knestis

12-08-2013, 06:59 PM

Seems to me there's some arguing here against something that hasn't even been suggested.

K

Xian

12-08-2013, 08:41 PM

Yeah right. When the fleet is town, the bars "could" see more business and the prostitutes "may" be walking bowlegged for a few days.
Insanity: Doing the same thing over and expecting different results- Albert Einstein

The goal isn't to go slower. The goal is to spend less on tires. That leaves a googolplex of other ways to spend that money.

Moreover, name one freaking successful series where people didn't spend to the limit of the rules?
Pull the other leg, it's the one with bells. How many thousands of dollars do people have in their $500 POS Le Chumpmons cars?

And production was never conceived as a category where people spent more on a single season's development than I've spent in my entire racing career. That fart has already left the rectum. This proposal isn't going to stop the consumption of beans. It's just simply saying that we eat the vegetarian beans instead of the pork and beans. We're still going to be sitting around the camp fire letting 'em rip.

Excellent. They want to run to mid-pack to DFL using street tires and underdeveloped cars. Where is the need for a new set of rules to make this happen? Under the existing rules set, they can still run mid-pack to DFL using street tires and underdeveloped cars.

Can you point out where Chip (or I) have suggested:

1- new rules for those running street tires.
2- that costs can be contained when the culture doesn't support it.

You're coming across as a frothing at the mouth Vegan Raw Food-ist. ;)

Chip42

12-08-2013, 09:35 PM

I DID say 180tw rule is added for the STC. But that's kinda the point, and only within the challenge group.

StephenB

12-08-2013, 11:52 PM

I DID say 180tw rule is added for the STC. But that's kinda the point, and only within the challenge group.

I would suggest not calling it a rule but instead your definition of street tire in the street tire challenge. And that definition or even clarification is a tire with a tread wear 180 or higher. (You can even add a word to the beginning of that sentence that says "un-shaved". This really isn't a "rules change"

And yes I agree with kirk completely!
Stephen

dickita15

12-09-2013, 07:32 AM

I applaud the missionary work that the Blethen’s and others are doing in the street tire world. The success that the IT7 guys up here have had in changing the paradigm in their little microcosm is an interesting data point and very encouraging.
The fact of the matter is we are not ready for any kind of rule change. There is not enough knowledge about running streets to make any kind of a decision. If more racers are willing to show us all that racing on streets is fun and gives savings that may change. How do you do that, you get a sub set of people running get together and agree to do it showing the rest of us how good it is. Before IT7 was a real class up here we had a race within a race and bought our own gaudy recycled bowling trophy that we awarded back in the paddock to the winning IT7 in ITA. I fought hard for that $2 trophy. Out trophy presentation had more hoopla than the region’s for ITA.

I think streets could be a good thing. I am struck by the fact that 50% of SCCA licensed drivers compete in two weekends a year or less. I would love it if it was easier for those guys to come out more often. Maybe if they thought it was not a waste to drag the car out without a new set or Ho Hos we would see them more often.

And yes the NER IT7 guys should go the additional step from Nittos to true streets but we are not going to until the missionaries do the noble work of testing the theory. After all we are not exactly early adopters of technology are we?

jjjanos

12-09-2013, 09:20 AM

Can you point out where Chip (or I) have suggested:

1- new rules for those running street tires.

So I can run Hoosiers and be part of this challenge? Oh, wait, I can't. That's a rule.

2- that costs can be contained when the culture doesn't support it.

So you acknowledge this won't do anything other than make us wear a condom after having a vasectomy?

There is no cost-containment culture. So, what's the point of this?

Xian

12-09-2013, 10:11 AM

So I can run Hoosiers and be part of this challenge? Oh, wait, I can't. That's a rule.

So you acknowledge this won't do anything other than make us wear a condom after having a vasectomy?

There is no cost-containment culture. So, what's the point of this?

Are you trying to be obtuse or just argumentative? :shrug:

A group of racers (let's call them friends) are having a "contest" amongst themselves during the IT* Race Group. They all agree to run a certain type of tires. Per the rules, you can run any tire you want in IT* but I doubt that you'll be invited over to their paddock for beers when they're recounting who beat whom within their group of friends.

No rules added to the IT section of the GCR.
No new class added to the results sheet.
No reduction in total entries for IT*

As far as your attempt to derail the point (again) of cost containment... Yes, we all AGREE that there's no way to contain costs within a culture that doesn't value it. Nobody is trying to do so. Instead, Chip (and others) are trying to foster a new culture where it's not only acceptable but encouraged not to go full-tilt crazy on 10/10ths builds and sticker/shaved/whatever tires for each race weekend. Basically a bunch of like-minded people are saying "fuck it, why should we spend XXX+$400 when we can spend XXX, have just as much fun, and race the same people?".

Again, I'm not sure if you're missing something basic to the conversation here or just actively playing the part of surely curmudgeon. :shrug:

JeffYoung

12-09-2013, 10:36 AM

First off, to be clear, I'm totally fine with guys running street tires in IT and having inter race contests and trophies. No issue with that.

I just have a hard time believing that this is the end game. If it isn't, and we are really trying to change the culture and move IT to street tires and ban R comps, then I see a crap ton of issues we'd have to deal with to maintain the competitive balance we have now.

That's the harm/issue I see, sorry if I wasn't clear.

Oh, and FancyPants (jjanos)? Yeah, he'd argue with a supermodel giving him a blowjob.

I completely agree that the "want" has to be there as well... but you can't get there on "want" alone anymore than you or I can "want" our way into a competitive F1 seat. ;)

Help me understand... If we can't rules ourselves into a cheaper place (and there's been no suggestion that there will be a rules rewrite for street tires) and we can't change the culture of "want"ing to build a top car or win and the tires won't make much of a difference to the costs then exactly *how* might this be an example of something that could hurt the category. Either it makes no difference (as has been suggested) or it is potentially something that could be embraced by IT "culture" and drive a change from within. And if there is a "change from within" are you against it because it's different or counter to what serves you best?

FWIW, I say some of this ^^^ tongue in cheek but really, what's it matter if a handful of folks want to run cheap tires and earn bragging rights amongst eachother? Does it take away from your accomplishment in some way? What if they put together an agreement to run worn out Take-Off RA1's or SM Hoosiers? Does that make it any better or worse?

Flyinglizard

12-09-2013, 10:46 AM

Xian

12-09-2013, 10:50 AM

First off, to be clear, I'm totally fine with guys running street tires in IT and having inter race contests and trophies. No issue with that.

I just have a hard time believing that this is the end game. If it isn't, and we are really trying to change the culture and move IT to street tires and ban R comps, then I see a crap ton of issues we'd have to deal with to maintain the competitive balance we have now.

That's the harm/issue I see, sorry if I wasn't clear.

Oh, and FancyPants (jjanos)? Yeah, he'd argue with a supermodel giving him a blowjob.

I don't know that anyone ever knows where the end game of anything is. :shrug:

As I understand it, the goal right now is just some folks looking to save a couple bucks and race the same people they always do. Basically an IT7 approach amongst some friends in ITB. Will the masses move to street tires over the next couple years and then begin shouting for "equality" against the R-comps? Dunno. I guess it's possible but no different than folks could start asking for remote shocks (again).

I agree that a move away from R-comps would possibly (likely?) upset the applecart with regard to class balance. Because of the limited sizes the street tires come it, it could result in some competitive cars becoming back markers due to lack of tire availability. i.e. the Mustang would be stuck on 225/45's where they're running 245/50's. Additionally, a move to street tires would "force" anyone with a 10/10th's build to make not just spring/shock/bar changes to the car but also FD ratio changes which could be Texa$.

And all this may be moot anyway... the new R7/A7 may be the tire equivalent of free super-model mouth hugs for life. :happy204:

The new Hoosier R7 uses a radical new nano-particle radial cap that will absorb and redistribute tire pickup while in storage. Care must be given to shave the new R7 after extensive track use due to the increased rubber and rolling diameter. I hear that Hoosier will also be awarding 2 contingency tires all the way down to 15th place and paying cash to the Top-10 Finishers.

Greg Amy

12-09-2013, 10:57 AM

I agree that a move away from R-comps would possibly (likely?) upset the applecart with regard to class balance.
If one were to assume that, and given the genesis of the category was in the days of Yokohama A001R and Pirelli P7, then it logically follows that the applecart is already upset and that such a move as this would rectify it... :shrug:

- GA

Xian

12-09-2013, 11:07 AM

After looking at some of the historical images of the upset applecart, it's come to my attention that it appears to be on street tires.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-DL6SnMSMI2c/TrjyiVIy5WI/AAAAAAAACng/5JV7kiEeBj8/s1600/apple+cart.jpg

Flyinglizard

12-09-2013, 11:12 AM

Xian

12-09-2013, 11:29 AM

Technology has less value at lower G forces. Some of the ITBcars were designed for .7 G loads. IE. BMW 2002 . The chassis is not happy with 1.25 lateral loading.
Less total grip would allow the older cars to run better with respect to the new cars with real suspensions. And brakes.
It would snug the class up a lot. IMHO.

Devil's Advocate:

Less fancy suspension will do a less optimal job of keeping the street tires in their "happy place". R-comps are better at covering a multitude of setup and suspension design sins as well as better tolerating being stuffed onto a narrow wheel.

This is without even delving into the "What happens when the car on 13's suddenly has to run 15's with the corresponding ride height and FD changes".

JeffYoung

12-09-2013, 11:32 AM

Xian

12-09-2013, 11:44 AM

Cage should fix most of that twisty loading stuff. Most of it.

Another idea Ron, Jeff and I were kicking around yesterday was this. SM gets a great deal on SM6 tires. They do so by negotiation.

What if IT did sometihng similar for the 4-5 most popular sizes? 245/50/15, 225/45/15, 205/50/15, 225/45/13? Last check the SM6 was about $50 per tire less than the equivalent non SM6 tire.

It can't hurt to ask but:

The SM price deal is (I assume) what it took to get them in the door vs the Toyo.
It's a single size.
SM fields are often larger than all of IT combined.
SM drivers have more of a proclivity to toss low-use tires and buy more.

This is a big POOMA but I'd wager that SM buys substantially more tires than all of IT combined... and with it all being one size, the juice is worth the squeeze for Hoosier. Can't say that they'd have the same appetite to offer the same for IT...

PS
I just had a thought: it's likely that all the folks buying R6's are helping to fund the price cut for the SM6. Just like the back marker guys paying for R6's while the front runners get them "free" in contingency. All that $$'s gotta come from somewhere, right? ;)

JeffYoung

12-09-2013, 11:48 AM

I checked last night and I think for regional racing, IT was about 85% of SM entries.

Difference is it is split across four or five key sizes.

Still, I'd think the volume is enough to be attractive to HoHo if the HoHo was made a Spec IT tire. That said, it's that last part that is spooky -- we've always allowed folks tire choice in IT and spec'ing a tire (be it street or R) is probably not smething I'd support.

Xian

12-09-2013, 12:02 PM

So, IT is ~85% of Regional SM entries... then add in National SM entries, factor for a higher tire "turn-over" rate in SM, and I think we'd see that the "offer" to Hoosier wouldn't be that large of a market segment. Hey, at least it would be done at the risk of disenfranchising all the budget guys running Toyo's or Kumho's or BFG's or Hankooks or (gasp) street tires.

dickita15

12-09-2013, 01:47 PM

Dick,
SCCA club racing is one of the few clubs ,Worldwide, that allows tires that have a lifespan of a few hours. Most clubs run on 180 TW tires. Many are a spec tire. Racing is very good and the 6 tires can last all year on 2000# cars, with very little , if any lap time degradsion . . The lap time creep is well inside the driver induced data noise. Unlike the Hoes.
Chumpcar tire rules have proven that the racing can be very close, the tires last and no body has died from going slower. There is plenty of data out there. Lookat the Euro clubs, VW Cup, PR club racing like EA86 tossed out,The DR clubs. etc.

The SCCA club racer that races 2X per year; The second time out on the HOHO tires , they are hard,dried out, not consistent. Hoes are a deterrent from racing for the "seldom racer".

Of course the cost of racing comes down as the cost per hr comes down. Stop arguing that please. It's non sense.
Of course the fast big dollar guys will still use all available tools to stay in front. It's racing. It's part of racing.

I moved out of IT to Prod,mostly due to the tires. If my Son is going to race, I want a venue that I can almost afford. Buying Hoes every race weekend is not an option for us.
Sometimes I think that Iam the only one, but more often than not, I am just the vocal one. My 4/100$, take offs last until the cords and have slowed down before I get them. yes, fresh Hoes are faster..

Mike,
i am not sure why you are arguing with me. i agree that street tires would make it easier for guys to race with us and think it would likely be better for the club. what i am saying is that in order to get to that point all your internet insitances are not going to make it happen. people like the Blethens actually doing it will make people comfortable with that being part of out future. once there are various groups out there racing well and having fun concerns such as you are seeing with Jeff will become less prevelent and change can happen.

will the future include street tires maybe, will it be a change to IT or will it come under some other rules/class combination, who knows.

i am all about the lowering barriors to entry issue. in a couple of weeks NER will be announceing a couple of steps in that direction, small steps, but steps none the less.

webhound

12-09-2013, 01:56 PM

Still, I'd think the volume is enough to be attractive to HoHo if the HoHo was made a Spec IT tire. That said, it's that last part that is spooky -- we've always allowed folks tire choice in IT and spec'ing a tire (be it street or R) is probably not smething I'd support.

Please dear god, no.

lateapex911

12-10-2013, 04:36 AM

No Dan... A LOt of people have seen what you guys have done and wish they had that in their region or their class... I see you as the problem!!! Oh PS: you guys shoul be running on Dunlops ;)

Again- as someone mentioned another class is not always the answer, we have to many classes already in scca sprint racing. People that can still develop themselves and there car but don't have the cash to do it should run on street tires, you can easily run mid pack on them and save a ton of money doing it.

Raymond "If you can get a group of guys/girls (as the NE IT7 guys have done) great... You are lucky as you are all saving money without influencing the market enough to change the price or development of the tire." Blethen

You'll have to ask the guys but I THINK they have agreed to (mostly) adhere to a certain level of build. THATS where the savings comes from.

Years ago, Hankook had a program where you won tires. I started off that season with a couple wins and reaped free tires. Having fresh tires allowed me to win again, and again. It allowed me to test more, and I was able to get serious about other aspects of the prep, which upped my game and helped me win more, and get more tires.

While I was "saving" money, I was actually diverting the savings into test fees, dyno time, custom designed and scratch build headers, suspension experiments, and more traveling to more events.

So, IF the local guys respect a prep line in the sand, THEN there are savings. If not, well, the game gets raised, within the bigger game.

Of course, IF the prep line stays the same, then the entrants enter more often, and it's the driver who ups his game. Thats the ideal result, I'd think.

gran racing

12-10-2013, 08:56 AM

Ding, ding, ding!!! Yes, exactly!

I have some tires that I wasn't able to put to use, so don't need to divert the initial season's budget towards that. My engine is pinging and was down on hp. Now that I don't have to worry about tires, the engine will be better prepped (not just fixed) and looking to fix the blueprinted tranny that I have (has a bad 5th gear fork). I know that in order to keep up with other cars, the exhaust needs to be addressed. And other stuff.

I look at Andy B.'s Miata. It's still being improved and was arguably one of the best built ITA cars around. There are other extremely well-built cars out there to which keep improving.

These are the areas that I and many others contually struggle to keep up with if we want a shot of running up front with our current talent levels.

Flyinglizard

12-10-2013, 09:53 AM

Sorry Dick, I was not arguing anything ,just address this;
"
The fact of the matter is we are not ready for any kind of rule change. There is not enough knowledge about running streets to make any kind of a decision. If more racers are willing to show us all that racing on streets is fun and gives savings that may change. How do you do that, you get a sub set of people running get together and agree to do it showing the rest of us how good it is. Before IT7 was a real class up here we had a race within a race and bought our own gaudy recycled bowling trophy that we awarded back in the paddock to the winning IT7 in ITA. I fought hard for that $2 trophy. Out trophy presentation had more hoopla than the region’s for ITA.

I think streets could be a good thing. I am struck by the fact that 50% of SCCA licensed drivers compete in two weekends a year or less. I would love it if it was easier for those guys to come out more often. Maybe if they thought it was not a waste to drag the car out without a new set or Ho Hos we would see them more often."
The point is that there is plenty of data. not much bad has happened on 180 tires. . That is all.

I would venture that of the 10 guys posting here. half get free tires??
The "Seldom racers" dont bother posting, as they think that their views dont count. When in fact their input should be considered as or more valuable as the 6X race guys. We need these guys on track more often.
Anytime that it cost more to participate, the entries go down. Cheaper tires that will work the second time out seem to be a no brainer.
Many of us race for 400$ per or less. We do.

It might be a great time for a weak region to step up and make a test rule for ITB.

The ITC cars have too few 180 tires and would need to fit 15in wheels and all of the engineering/rules dominoes.

Chip42

12-10-2013, 10:43 AM

the economic situation is even more different in the CFR than a lot of the more northern racers see, to wit:

low entry fee. CFR weekends run <$300 regularly. the Turkey Trots were $220 for a single entrant / race group and half that add'l to double dip ($330 total). thus even double dipping was cheaper than a double sarrc weekend.

localized region means many races are closer to the track than is often the case. lower tow costs. doesn't hurt that it's pretty flat here, too.

lots of open trailers and simple rigs scattered in the with 18 wheelers, toters, etc... many of us sleep in our trailers, vans, and tents.

a large population of cars (~60 B/A/S/R cars registered for the weekend) so there's a good sized mid pack, many of whom are actual budget racers and there appears to be much interest among them in trying the STC.

somewhat contained group means the culture is easier to read and understand and everyone can get on the same page rather quickly.

I honestly don't know how well the idea might translate to other regions but I think the CFR is as close to the perfect match for it as possible... I guess that's why the idea I have came from here.

dickita15

12-10-2013, 11:00 AM

Understood Mike,
I think this can be done, I think it would be good, it is just from my political perspective we have not reached the tipping point in most places. Not a big deal it will just take some people to demonstrate to the status quo people this is not a threat. Once they have seen the cars on track and reach a comfort level it will be much more doable.
It is like the Club Racing Experience project. We allowed a pilot program in 2013 and some said OMG you are going to let unlicensed drivers run wheel to wheel without a doctor’s note, the world will end. We convinced 4 or 5 regions to try one. The events ran, we learned stuff, the world did not end. The Pilot program will continue in 2014. Do I wish this stuff happened faster, of course, but it kind of like pushing a rope.
One of the biggest problems with change and new programs is at the region level the hard working volunteers who run the programs, and this is true in club racing and solo, like what they are doing. If you are a club racing director for a region it is likely because you like club racing not because you want to, say start a PDX program. It is hard to find the people to champion new programs because we do not currently attract the people who like to do that new program.

jjjanos

12-10-2013, 12:31 PM

You'll have to ask the guys but I THINK they have agreed to (mostly) adhere to a certain level of build. THATS where the savings comes from.

Hope in one hand and crap in the other. I know which one will fill first.

pfcs

12-10-2013, 02:59 PM

that maybe enough "crazies" would go along with their dream: to retreat from the insane prep levels production car had reached.
They put out the idea of reverting to 1963 production car rules.
They called their dream Improved Touring.

Improved touring is now the victim of it's success:
It was so SENSIBLE, so CHEAP, and so much FUN, that it rapidly snowballed into the most popular type of SCCA racing.
In a very few years, it had attracted all types of members-including some engineering, fabrication types (the rules stated it was a beginning class where members could race cheaply prepared cars that were capable of street use-"dual use" the rules said) that were expected to move to production and sedan (GT), which had been a hugely subscribed and venerated.
The National show was what most SCCA types aspired to and prod and GT WERE where the heroes of club racing hammered out their reputations. We all used to look forward to reading the post-Runoffs Sportscar stories for each National class race.
Then National racing died. And IT became a place that car developing, uber serious types started taking VERY seriously.
They have been eating the menu, and not the meal!
If the "soul" of this class is to survive, some people better start hoping and dreaming.
NO SHIT!

Ron Earp

12-10-2013, 06:48 PM

In a very few years, it had attracted all types of members-including some engineering, fabrication types (the rules stated it was a beginning class where members could race cheaply prepared cars that were capable of street use-"dual use" the rules said) that were expected to move to production and sedan (GT), which had been a hugely subscribed and venerated.
The National show was what most SCCA types aspired to and prod and GT !

There's truth in your post. But some of it ignores the reality of IT for the last fifteen years, half the time the class has been in existence. IT is the destination for many of us.

I'd go race Prod or GT. Except for I don't see any cars in Prod that I'm interested in racing. The displacement limit in Prod, I think 3L, ensures I'll be racing imports and very old cars. I don't want to race a hand grenade engine, and while my car, a 1994-2004 chassis is old, it ain't British spridget old.

And beyond that, I'm not at all interested in the National/Majors scene as I'm not going to tow to the middle of the country for a championship race (fixed now), and I'm far more interested in what regional races have to offer such as the SARRC, Cup races, and ECRs (not fixed).

So, I, and many others like me, stay in IT where the racing groups are large, the competitive fields are deep, and most importantly it is where our friends race.

Flyinglizard

12-11-2013, 11:43 AM

Phil,
Most of us respect your wisdom,
What would you advise to best guide the future of IT?

Ron. What would change, if you changed tires? Your friends will still race on slower tires..

I think that any cost containment point is always good.

Ron Earp

12-11-2013, 12:30 PM

Ron. What would change, if you changed tires? Your friends will still race on slower tires..

There is no argument from me with respect to changing IT to street tires, of course provided we make some provisions for wheel sizes in IT. I'd be happy racing on street tires, on properly sized wheels, if we're all doing it. All good here from my side.

My opposition, if you can even call it that, is to a small subset has a goal of essentially wanted to attract enough attention to get a bunch of racers to race in a "class within a class", but not enough attention to involve official SCCA channels to make an IT rule change. They want to race within an ad hoc race group in a rather futile attempt to reign in racing costs.

Why not work instead toward changing the rules and putting IT on a street tire?

*Is it because they know IT can't be changed due to the SCCA's hierarchy and "change is bad" atmosphere?

*Is it because they don't don't want to be on equal footing with the rest of the IT racers? That is to say, they don't want to run a 10/10th program so they wish to create, even if short lived, a subclass to avoid the "serious" IT guys?

*Not sure street tires are good for racing? Clearly they are, works in other classes and other parts of the world. It can work here.

I feel there are other places to race if you feel like street tires are what you want to use. But, I have no problem racing on street tires in IT, especially if it would be for the greater good of IT. Hell, I'd even be happy to help with the initiative.

IT faces many challenges - LeChump, NASA, and now itself with the advent of ST and allowances for IT cars to run in Majors/Prod classes. If we want IT to survive maybe we need to make some changes.

Chip42

12-11-2013, 12:33 PM

it's not really cost containment if the whole class shifts over. short term there's R&D, trying different sizes and brands and setups, shaving, all the stuff that has been said, and then longer term you have potential "fast" life, rate of development leading us BACK down the rabbit hole, etc...

yeah for those who don't want to optimize it's still a pretty big win, but we can just leave it as is and let that group run the 180s (STC!!!) and let the guys who will do the hard work of top level development stick with what they know.

a few years down the line, if one idea looks better than the other, and the data is in and the new economy has had a chance to stabilize, then we might find need to reconsider, but I think MANDATING any change at this point, category wide, is a bad idea as any reward from doing so risks being perceived as unequal to the risk/penalty (perception dependent) - or could actually upset the balance where that is well established.

I'm not interested in upsetting membership, I'm interested in finding way to entice new/inactive racers, help current low-budget guys to come out more, and keep the front of the pack happy, too. lets drop the talk of doing a rule change for now, and consider suggesting that those who cannot afford or complain about the cost of R comps (or those who are just curious) give 180TWs a shot.

Ron Earp

12-11-2013, 12:51 PM

it's not really cost containment if the whole class shifts over. short term there's R&D, trying different sizes and brands and setups, shaving, all the stuff that has been said, and then longer term you have potential "fast" life, rate of development leading us BACK down the rabbit hole, etc...

yeah for those who don't want to optimize it's still a pretty big win, but we can just leave it as is and let that group run the 180s (STC!!!) and let the guys who will do the hard work of top level development stick with what they know.

....and everybody is a winner. I still can't help but looking at this is some sort of millennial generation initiative where we have a class for everyone and we all win.

You said it yourself and you know this to be true:

"it's not really cost containment if the whole class shifts over."

So, your goal is to not have the STC recognized by the sanctioning body because you know racers will be racers and will develop to the extent of the rules, and, you're back to where you are now except on street tires.

Sorry, I can't get behind that. I think it is a selfish longview and further dilutes IT, a class that is already seeing attrition.

If the class needs some changes to attract new racers, and keep old ones, then let's make some changes and make IT the place to be racing for the future.

gran racing

12-11-2013, 01:05 PM

I fully recognize that street tires have come a long way, but there’s some irony here…

"It all began back in the early 50′s when Robert “Bob” Newton, along with his supportive wife Joyce, began a successful racing career on the small asphalt tracks of northern Indiana. Bob, like many of his fellow drivers, was not satisfied with driving on street tires with their limited sizing options and uniformly hard tread compounds. It was during these early days of “eating bologna sandwiches and sleeping on a creeper under his racer” that Bob had a vision to produce his own tires specifically designed for racing." Bob is the creator of Hoosier Race Tires.

Not too familiar with these tires but would the fit into the street category theme?

You’ve heard about them. You may have even seen them. Now experience them for yourself. Hoosier Racing Tire proudly presents the only true steel-belted radial tire for the Pro-Street and Hot Rod enthusiast, the Hoosier Pro-Street Radial. The Hoosier Pro-Street Radial has been refined to maintain cleaner looks without sacrificing ride comfort or drivability. The Hoosier Pro-Street’s steel-belted radial construction continues to deliver the comfort and highway stability not found in traditional bias-ply tires. Black sidewall markings guarantee the tires blend in with the other custom additions to your car.

Xian

12-11-2013, 01:14 PM

Does this:
http://www.hawkinsspeedshop.com/tires-wheels-and-accessories/images/19030hoosier1.jpg

Look more like this:
https://westcoastwheelfactory.com/media//Hankook_VentusRS3_lg.jpg

Or this:
http://www.wheelenhancement.com/Images/16_Hoosier_R3S04.jpg

Chip42

12-11-2013, 01:25 PM

Sorry, I can't get behind that. I think it is a selfish longview and further dilutes IT, a class that is already seeing attrition.

If the class needs some changes to attract new racers, and keep old ones, then let's make some changes and make IT the place to be racing for the future.

it's really not targeted at you. it's targeted at those who can't keep up with the likes of you. And I mean no disrespect, your efforts are mind blowing and I think you know how truly impressed and inspired I am by them, but there are people out there who still view IT as entry level. all I'm trying to do is give that crowd a bit of a carrot to stick with it and to help them feel that they don't HAVE to run the best rubber to race in IT. for newbs, once the bug catches then racers will be racers and the lure of the R comps will take hold.

I am NOT trying to make everyone a winner. F that noise.

georgethefierce

12-11-2013, 02:16 PM

it's really not targeted at you. it's targeted at those who can't keep up with the likes of you. And I mean no disrespect, your efforts are mind blowing and I think you know how truly impressed and inspired I am by them, but there are people out there who still view IT as entry level. all I'm trying to do is give that crowd a bit of a carrot to stick with it and to help them feel that they don't HAVE to run the best rubber to race in IT. for newbs, once the bug catches then racers will be racers and the lure of the R comps will take hold.

I think this is the key...for me at least the tire/limited prep portion that is drawing me from roundy round to the world of club racing is a short term thing, I am using it to see if I have any aptitude and to see if the juice is worth the squeeze in seat time to dollars...to me there is no other true "entry level" to club racing right now despite the intent of IT.

TomL

12-11-2013, 02:47 PM

I've been staying out of this discussion, but after that last assertion that "it's not really cost containment if the whole class shifts over", I've got to say my piece. If you require street tires and, if as purported, they last a long time with minimal fall-off in performance, you will absolutely reduce the cost of competing.

I can give you the closest thing we have to a real world trial, with SEDiv IT7. We have a spec tire, Toyo RA1 or 888. The Toyos are pretty close to a "street tire". They don't have the 180 TW rating, but they are similar in that they definitely have less grip than a Hoosier or similar tire, but they last forever with essentially no fall-off. I always get 20+ sessions on each Toyo and sometimes over 30 before they either hit the cords or fall off appreciably (usually the former). I can run a busy season of 10+ races on one $700 set of Toyos and give up nothing on performance. To maintain the same relative competitive position if we were all running Hoosiers, I'd need to buy two or three sets at $1000+. To give an extreme example, I ran my Mazda in 26 races this year between IT7 and double dipping as an STU. I spent exactly $0 on tires this year. I bought one set in late 2012 and between that and three already well-used sets I had, I didn't need to buy a single tire this year. Yes, I'm about ready for a new set, but don't tell me that you can't save money by not allowing expensive, short-lived tires.

I realize if you save $2-3000 a year on tires you could then spend that money on improved shocks, engine tweaks or testing. If you have a budget of X thousand dollars and you absolutely plan to spend it all, you will, whether on tires or something else. But I'm not sure that you would have to. Once you have a car that is reasonably close to optimized, nothing you do is going to give you a big improvement in speed, EXCEPT for buying new tires every weekend or two. If you weren't essentially required to buy expensive tires regularly just to maintain your position relative to those who do, you would have the option of either: a) spend the money you saved on additional tweaks that might gain you few tenths a lap, or b) just save the money and be no worse off than you were. With the current rules, you have no choice - you either regularly spend the money on tires or go significantly slower.

With a street tire rule, in most classes if you have a good car and can drive it well, you would have a decent shot at winning without spending a lot of money on tires (or possibly anything else). In a really competitive class like SEDiv ITS, where people are spending significant sums on optimizing their cars to the 99th percentile, you will need a lot of that "anything else" to be up front. But even there, you could save a lot of money on tires.

But for all this to occur, it has to be class-wide. As noted earlier, if you just want to save money on tires and don't care much about winning, there's nothing stopping you now. But if you want the cost-saving benefit of street tires and do want to have a shot at a win, it has to be mandatory. And that will be a really major hurdle. I don't know if many of you are familiar with the war that went on when the Toyo rule for IT7 was implemented, but suffice to say that it caused a lot of turmoil for a couple years. Part of that was driven by the people who were winning regularly and getting free Hoosiers. With a primary source of contingency money for SCCA racing being tire manufacturers, I'm not sure if there would be a willingness to implement a street tire rule. But maybe it would allow other manufacturers to play without having to produce a Hoosier-equivalent, so who knows.

dickita15

12-11-2013, 02:58 PM

I think this is the key...for me at least the tire/limited prep portion that is drawing me from roundy round to the world of club racing is a short term thing, I am using it to see if I have any aptitude and to see if the juice is worth the squeeze in seat time to dollars...to me there is no other true "entry level" to club racing right now despite the intent of IT.

for god's sake Jason, just go down to Raymond NH and grab a RX7.

Greg Amy

12-11-2013, 03:23 PM

for god's sake Jason, just go down to Raymond NH and grab a RX7.
Already done. He bought 07.

georgethefierce

12-11-2013, 03:24 PM

for god's sake Jason, just go down to Raymond NH and grab a RX7.

Soon! and if I bother you already just wait 'til you have to run with me!!! :023:

georgethefierce

12-11-2013, 03:25 PM

Already done. He bought 07.

nope, someone grabbed it, I wont be in one 'til after the Daytona 24

Dano77

12-11-2013, 05:54 PM

WOW Lots of speculation and silly season stuff happening here. Who's in what car and all.

As it sits right now, there will be 12 to 14 IT7 Dinosaur Super Series cars in 2014, not including special guests.

Looks as though its wait and see time. Hmmmmmmm

Hi Im Dan, and I drive a crapcan with class....

Chip42

12-11-2013, 06:28 PM

I've been staying out of this discussion, but after that last assertion that "it's not really cost containment if the whole class shifts over", I've got to say my piece...

it's not really cost containment if the whole class shifts over. short term there's R&D, trying different sizes and brands and setups, shaving, all the stuff that has been said, and then longer term you have potential "fast" life, rate of development leading us BACK down the rabbit hole, etc...

yeah for those who don't want to optimize it's still a pretty big win, but we can just leave it as is and let that group run the 180s (STC!!!) and let the guys who will do the hard work of top level development stick with what they know.

I'm quoting myself now...

Tom I appreciate your point. I stand by my statements above because it's not that cheaper tires wont save SOME people money, it's that making them the rule won't stop people who spend money from spending money. multiple sets of different brands of tires for different conditions - the escalation in the 180TW class once hoosier gets involved and prices start to go up with added performance (and no honest guarantee of actual wear rates), additional development as you note... it never ends, and we've seen it before.

street tires and "good spec tires" aren't the same thing. nor are top level IT efforts ("Race programs") and classes like IT7. those guys are NEVER "done" optimizing or developing. "There's always something you can improve"

people can save money NOW by running toyos or street tires in IT. it's perfectly legal in the current rules to do so. making them the rule runs the risk of actually elevating that cost to those who are looking for savings.

my $0.02

GTF: please don't paint whatever RX7 you get pink...

matt batson

12-11-2013, 08:54 PM

There is no argument from me with respect to changing IT to street tires, of course provided we make some provisions for wheel sizes in IT. I'd be happy racing on street tires, on properly sized wheels, if we're all doing it. All good here from my side.

My opposition, if you can even call it that, is to a small subset has a goal of essentially wanted to attract enough attention to get a bunch of racers to race in a "class within a class", but not enough attention to involve official SCCA channels to make an IT rule change. They want to race within an ad hoc race group in a rather futile attempt to reign in racing costs.

Why not work instead toward changing the rules and putting IT on a street tire?

*Is it because they know IT can't be changed due to the SCCA's hierarchy and "change is bad" atmosphere?

*Is it because they don't don't want to be on equal footing with the rest of the IT racers? That is to say, they don't want to run a 10/10th program so they wish to create, even if short lived, a subclass to avoid the "serious" IT guys?

*Not sure street tires are good for racing? Clearly they are, works in other classes and other parts of the world. It can work here.
I feel there are other places to race if you feel like street tires are what you want to use. But, I have no problem racing on street tires in IT, especially if it would be for the greater good of IT. Hell, I'd even be happy to help with the initiative.

IT faces many challenges - LeChump, NASA, and now itself with the advent of ST and allowances for IT cars to run in Majors/Prod classes. If we want IT to survive maybe we need to make some changes.

this post sums up my opinions about street tires...

it wont keep me from entering IT, I'll race either way...but I wouldn't mind if the rule got passed and everyone had to race on streets.

TomL

12-12-2013, 12:44 AM

Chip, I understand your argument, too. IF the tire manufacturers decide to follow the same route with "street tires" that they have with "DOT tires", with ever escalating performance and costs plus decreasing life, then we will indeed be right back where we started, and have spent more money for the transition. However, with a 180 TW limit, I'm not so sure that will happen. There is only so much you can do with a tire that hard, and I really doubt that a tire manufacturer would be willing to run the risk of cheating on the TW rating. Between the possibility of a DOT fine and bad publicity, or even worse, a class action law suit, I don't think they'd take the chance. And particularly not for a market as small as IT racers. As I said, I don't see SCCA approving it for their "big" classes, i.e., those in Majors. IT, maybe. And if it were limited to IT, I doubt anyone but the IT racers themselves (and Hoosier) would take the slightest notice.

And I know how racers are. If they want to win bad enough, they will spend large amounts of money. Cost containment is difficult in racing for that reason. You can't stop them from spending money, but what you can do is make the spending of money less valuable by reducing the payoff. IF there isn't a manufacturers' tire war in street tires, there should be almost no benefit from buying tires every weekend. And when you did buy them they'd be cheaper. At that point, spending lots of money on tires isn't being competitive, it's being foolish. Yes, they'd probably spend some of it on something else, but again, the payoff per dollar wouldn't be as nearly as big as buying new Hoosiers is now. It wouldn't prevent spending, but it would reduce the incentive. That's about all you can do, but it's worth something. And it would reduce the performance differential between the big spenders and everyone else.

forestdweller37

12-12-2013, 07:51 AM

The secret to avoiding the re-creation of R-comps is to have some person or group assigned to monitor the tires. If something comes out that is too far over the edge, they put it on an exclusion list. This is the approach Solo is using.

For what it's worth, I sent a letter to the ITAC last night. I requested that they poll the membership about whether they'd prefer IT to be on 180TW street tires or DOT R-comps. We'll see if anything comes of it.

dickita15

12-12-2013, 08:39 AM

For what it's worth, I sent a letter to the ITAC last night. I requested that they poll the membership about whether they'd prefer IT to be on 180TW street tires or DOT R-comps. We'll see if anything comes of it.

And that is fine, but my hunch is the feedback will be overwhelmingly in favor of keeping DOTs. That is because that is what people know. Not enough people have raced on or even seen street tires on the track. That is why we need the missionarys to show they work. People do not like it when you move their cheese.

Flyinglizard

12-12-2013, 09:43 AM

Great move Forest.
There are some engineering dominoes to accommodate the 180 Tires.
All of my cars run on 15x7 wheels. World wide , this is the most common race size. followed by 17x8. You can buy 15X7 for 80$. Not 15X6
If you are going to adjust the rule, make it so that the racers have the most choices , @ the least cost.
The tire OD is about 22.6 for most of the 180 tires, either 205/50/15 or 215/45/15. This is very near the Hoes rollout, maybe 22.4. No major gear change is required, if the car was on 14or 15s before.

To keep the cat in the box we should consider and adjust to the modern tire market and past oversights. ;
The wheel size would /should be changed at the same time to at 7in wide for ITB and ITC. with up to 15 in max OD.( there are no easy US available 13, and only a couple of 14 in 180 tires.)
Max section width for each class to discourage the cantilever tires.
It makes the most sense to spec the wheel and tire size at this point.
Even with new tires and wheels the total cost is less than 1 set of Hoes. M&b from T rack.

A good start would be to test with ITB and ITC, IMHO These are the cheaper to run classes with small numbers. The faster classes are ready to spend the bigger cash per race , and the tires are a smaller portion of the pie overall.

gran racing

12-12-2013, 11:20 AM

Dick is spot on with how this would need to proceed. More people running them and talking about street tires for racing needs to happen. As he suggests, I'm one of those who don't fully know what to make of it as I haven't driven on track hard using street tires in a long time. Back when I did, I ran into some chunking issues due to the tires overheating. I'm somewhat surprised that isn't happening with other people's experiences.

Flyinglizard

12-12-2013, 11:54 AM

-Dave-, -
The 180- 280 tires dont seem to chunk. All of the current "track day" tires have little or no tread on the sidewall.( avoiding chunking)
The Kumho XS, BFG Rival, Dunlop Star1and2, Falken 615(idont like ) all have been run for many laps/hrs, without chunking.
I still have 8 Dunlop 300TW,DZ101 that we ran for the first chump races. Iuse them on the rear of the VW chumpers now and they are very consistant without chunking.

Heavy cars wearshit out, including tires. But the big Mustangs and Camaros are running these tires and getting all day out of them also. Sizes are 245-265.
Keeping the outer edge 15* cool helps and goes faster/ Not just for the 180 tires.
If you ran some 300- 400 TW tires that have lots of "void" you will pull the tread blocks off, when over driven.
The oval track /stockcar guys shave the 400 tires to reduce the heat and leverage of the pavement to rubber, avoiding the chunking. We wont need to with the 180 tires tho.
The 180 tires wont chunk if large enough, 205 on 2200# car, IE; Miata or VW or lighter.

ShelbyRacer

12-12-2013, 12:01 PM

I don't mind if you move my cheese, but I prefer it not be cut down into such a tiny piece of what it was, that I can't even taste it anymore. That, however, is another topic for Dick and I to discuss later. :)

(agreeing with Dick on this one) I think you're putting the cart before the horse in this specific case by sending a letter now Forest (but I'm not discouraging letter-sending!). Until there are several people doing this visibly, asking for member input at this time might cause a knee-jerk negative reaction, whereas waiting until it's been shown to work might get more people speaking in favor...

Flyinglizard

12-12-2013, 12:06 PM

FWIW, if anyone wants to run my Golf HP car on the 180 tires, let me know.
I use this car for Chin Events, Solo stuff, chump racing etc.

Any day @ Chin/ Sebring, we can work it out. "Full" data if you want.
Mike and I use Harry's lap timer. 3-4 laps/ swap cars. The Golf goes about 2:50 on 180s, 2:45 on Take off slicks, and 2:43ish on Hoes.

Matt , please open your eyes wider. The tires work in many venues already(as already pointed out ,Worldwide) . There may be a reason that IT cars are being sold to race Chumpemons,and SCCA racers are leaving also.
We need to stop the bleeding of our racers to less costly venues.

Greg Amy

12-12-2013, 12:49 PM

I think you're putting the cart before the horse in this specific case by sending a letter now...
Concur. Even worse, it may damage long-term possibilities by poisoning the well for future consideration. Develop a revulsion to the idea now via guerrilla tactics and it'll take a lot of work later to resolve it. - GA

forestdweller37

12-12-2013, 01:50 PM

Concur. Even worse, it may damage long-term possibilities by poisoning the well for future consideration. Develop a revulsion to the idea now via guerrilla tactics and it'll take a lot of work later to resolve it. - GA

It is not my intent to sabotage a potential change for the better or make people feel as though it's something being forced upon them against their preferences. That was my intent in suggesting that the question be asked vs. tires changed. Perhaps I should retract my letter? (Of course I forgot to write down the tracking number...<insert forehead slapping smiley here>)

ShelbyRacer

12-12-2013, 01:53 PM

I can't tell you the letter number, as it's not yet posted to our agenda. If you simply write in and ask to retract the earlier on, we'll get it. :)

I'm glad I'm not the only one that thought that, Greg.

Greg Amy

12-12-2013, 01:55 PM

It is not my intent to sabotage a potential change for the better or make people feel as though it's something being forced upon them against their preferences.
I understand. But what we're talking about here in this little corner of the Internet is really a wholesale revolution of the culture of the org. I suggest patience is key.

Move forward, demonstrate its potential, and preach its gospel. Eventually folks will see and understand. - GA

ShelbyRacer

12-12-2013, 02:18 PM

Matt , please open your eyes wider. The tires work in many venues already(as already pointed out ,Worldwide) . There may be a reason that IT cars are being sold to race Chumpemons,and SCCA racers are leaving also.
We need to stop the bleeding of our racers to less costly venues.

I can assure you that my eyes are open wide.

Hell, I get paid good money to shave tires, so this street tire thing is more than likely going to add to my paycheck. There may be some who question the need, but I can assure you, if there is a *perceived* advantage, people will be all over it. That said, if it is found to truly offer no advantageg, I'll be the first to say it, because I prefer not to make money off of racers for no good reason.

I'd also say though that there are much larger reasons that we are "bleeding racers" and that tire choice is a very small part of it.

Moreso than anything Mike- I'm not against this. I'm simply saying that there are MANY SCCA racers who, until it's shown to them, will react in a very negative way. Look back at this thread, and this only is from a few who would even engage the discussion. when, and if, this is shown to be a viable and cheap alternate, you'll have a much better chance of garnering support. Many of the racers I know got involved because, "that looks like fun- how can I do it too?" When it doesn't seem like fun, like when things get crammed down your throat, you start asking why you do it, and it all goes from there.

Xian

12-12-2013, 02:31 PM

Chip, I understand your argument, too. IF the tire manufacturers decide to follow the same route with "street tires" that they have with "DOT tires", with ever escalating performance and costs plus decreasing life, then we will indeed be right back where we started, and have spent more money for the transition. However, with a 180 TW limit, I'm not so sure that will happen. There is only so much you can do with a tire that hard, and I really doubt that a tire manufacturer would be willing to run the risk of cheating on the TW rating.

snip...

Are you familiar with the 195/50 15 Toyo R1R?

For those who aren't... it's (effectively) a cheater tire. All R1R's are rated at 140 TW. All R1R's except the 195/50 go from the "soft" rubber to a harder compound somewhere between 2/32nd's and 4/32nd's from the belts. The 195/50 is soft compound basically to the cords. Why's this matter? Because the compound is so soft that it will tear and chunk at full tread and even exhibits fast wear and graining at 4-5/32nd's. Did I mention that it can also get overheated within a handful of laps on the racetrack? It's the worst of all worlds in a street tire... you can't run it full tread or it'll chunk, so you shave it but it wears super quick. It also has a different carcass construction from the rest of the lineup. At this point you're asking "why would Toyo do such a thing?" (GASP!)... so they could win ST/STS class autocross championships. This tire became the defacto spec tire for the class. Cars that couldn't fit/run it were left out in the cold.

This 195/50 R1R isn't a threat to running a Street Tire roadrace class because it won't stand up to the heat/load thrown at it but the mentality that a boutique manufacturer wouldn't make a "cheater" tire for IT is short sighted. With SCCA Solo Stock classes moving to "street tires" and all the demand for LeChump/DE street tires, I think it's simply a matter of time before somebody starts making a tire that meets the letter of the rule but not the spirit. At that point, you'd better hope you have an exclusion list in place and officials who are willing to use it!

dickita15

12-12-2013, 02:59 PM

It is not my intent to sabotage a potential change for the better or make people feel as though it's something being forced upon them against their preferences. That was my intent in suggesting that the question be asked vs. tires changed. Perhaps I should retract my letter? (Of course I forgot to write down the tracking number...<insert forehead slapping smiley here>)

On the other hand if they do ask now in a year or two after more people have had exposure to street tires another request could be made and the CRB could see if there is evolution in thinking. Not sure which is best.

Jeremy Billiel

12-12-2013, 04:35 PM

JeffYoung

12-12-2013, 07:31 PM

And high torque, heavier RWD cars on 205/50/15 street tires? Fail again.

forestdweller37

12-12-2013, 08:19 PM

JeffYoung

12-12-2013, 08:25 PM

FWIW we do have "informal" dicussions about street tires even without the letters. And we all monitor or participate to differing degrees in the forums and the discussions on street tires.

It's not being ignored and there are many positives for it.

Xian

12-12-2013, 09:35 PM

And high torque, heavier RWD cars on 205/50/15 street tires? Fail again.

You're being intentionally silly.

#1- there are wider 15" tires than the 205.
#2- if there were a rewrite of the tire rules it would damn near require a rewrite of the wheel rules to go with it.

Which, as I think about it, IT will have to get around to #2 at some point just due to new vehicles being bigger and coming with wider wheels. How long before something gets classed into ITS that came from the factory with 7.5 or 8" wide wheels?

Chip42

12-12-2013, 09:40 PM

there have been cars in S with OEM wheels >7" for a few years now.

cars in ITB have had this issue for a while.

it's one of the "performance limitations" that keep class parity more or less in check, just because it's there.

but yes IF we were to adopt street tire rules in IT, tread section width would need to be the limit, not rim width, and wheel diameter would need to be opened up some to accommodate that.

I repeat, for those joining us on page 11, that I am NOT trying to get "street tires" to be the rule in IT.

Chip42

12-12-2013, 09:44 PM

The street tires and how well they perform is also VERY dependant on the car, suspension, etc...

Years ago when I ran shaved RA1's on the Integra to test what you guys are talking about I quickly said hell no and removed them to never go back on the car again.

Heavy FWD cars on street tires = FALE

IT7 dinosaurs (light and RWD) are fine, etc

many people ran similar combos for a long time not too long ago. the toyo RA1s are not streets - though their ultimate lap time is more similar than modern R comps. in either case, a car well set up to run HoHos is not going to be as happy on RA1s. needs a bit of toe in to accommodate the higher slip angles and such. other wise the car is very wishy washy when unloaded, and takes more time to take a set at turn in, usually with a lot more wheel input, but you can toss the car all over the place and the tires just seem to like it, while R6s are much happier when finessed.

I actually found the ZIIs to be more comfortable to drive than the RA1s, honestly. (underpowered 2350# RWD car) I gave them a smidge of rear toe in and found that while they do take a bit longer to take a set (vs R6s) they were less wallowy than the RA1s and felt more firmly planted. I did need to toss the car at the corner harder than I had been accustomed to, but that was easy to learn, and actually kinda fun.

seckerich

12-12-2013, 09:46 PM

Already is, the ITS BMW can run a 16" wheel.

Great you come up with this idea after I sell my shaving machine to a legends team. You know, the series that runs cheap street tires. :rolleyes:

You screw with our lifetime stash of light 15 x 7 wheels and you will piss off way more people than you bring in.

I have to laugh at the horror stories of how little use some of the proponents claim to get out of a set of Hoosiers. Very poor tire management or abuse when they are stickers. You would be shocked at the age of some of the tires I ran this year and the lap times they ran.

I remember the days of Toyo, etc, and it is not a good memory.

Xian

12-12-2013, 10:05 PM

Ron Earp

12-12-2013, 10:13 PM

I have to laugh at the horror stories of how little use some of the proponents claim to get out of a set of Hoosiers. Very poor tire management or abuse when they are stickers. You would be shocked at the age of some of the tires I ran this year and the lap times they ran. .

^^^^This.

Hoosiers aren't perfect. But with proper management I get a decent life out of them and nothing like what Lizard claims with them falling off a second a lap. I ran some old Hoosers in a CCPS down at CMP until one blew out, and the time was only 2.5 seconds off my fastest SARRC time - and it blew out because it was heat cycled over 21 times and run down to the cords.

I get it that Hoosiers do not last as long as a street tire, but they are not nearly as short lived as some street tire proponents claim.

adamjabaay

12-12-2013, 10:23 PM

XelderX

12-13-2013, 12:05 AM

Great you come up with this idea after I sell my shaving machine to a legends team. You know, the series that runs cheap street tires. :rolleyes:

They are shaving camber into them to go around in circles. Not really apples to apples.

There is evidence that the Hankook RS3 doesn't really get any faster when shaved. I think anyone spending money to shave the current crop of top street tires is only going to see a negligible gain. The new crop of tires don't have the same tread squirm/chunking issues the tires of a few years ago had.

pfcs

12-13-2013, 12:36 AM

There's truth in your post. But some of it ignores the reality of IT for the last fifteen years, half the time the class has been in existence. IT is the destination for many of us.

I'd go race Prod or GT. Except for I don't see any cars in Prod that I'm interested in racing. The displacement limit in Prod, I think 3L, ensures I'll be racing imports and very old cars. I don't want to race a hand grenade engine, and while my car, a 1994-2004 chassis is old, it ain't British spridget old.

And beyond that, I'm not at all interested in the National/Majors scene as I'm not going to tow to the middle of the country for a championship race (fixed now), and I'm far more interested in what regional races have to offer such as the SARRC, Cup races, and ECRs (not fixed).

So, I, and many others like me, stay in IT where the racing groups are large, the competitive fields are deep, and most importantly it is where our friends race.

Ron-one of my points was that IT HAS become a destination class, partly because of the failure of ALL the national sedan classes (GT, Production, SS) as well as the failure of national racing in general. And that's a problem!
IT was envisioned as a cheap, fun, low rent entry level class and it WAS.
I have hung around here and occasionally put my 2 cents in because I still care about the class, and I have argued for rules stasis. The realignment was OK and the ITAC operations manual a good thing. The rules creep, even due to seemingly benign changes, not good!! People argue that if everyone ran street tires, the serious guys would still, by driving skill and/or car development, prevail, and of course, they would.
But the also rans would be a lot closer to the point of the spear when a tire budget was no longer such an effective band-aid to well heeled contestants! I like that idea a lot! I've raced on REALLY slick street tires and am here to tell ya', it's just as exciting and challenging at 11/10s when you are restrained by traction as it is on purple crack, maybe even more so. I'm thinking B and C should go for it and see how it fleshes out.

And while on my soapbox, Another pet idea: start classifying newer cars into B&C with stock engines and manifolds (no headers) and stock ECUs*. IT B&C are suffering because newer cars are becoming more powerful and sophisticated and thus, little suited for B and C. Requiring stock engines would realign the power to weight calculus and make many econoboxes (CHEAP!!) available and eligible! A huge amount of development is required to be highly competitive (header design, +.040 overbore, blueprinting, raising compression to spec+.49!) which requires unnecessary $$$. This might bring an astonishing rebirth of the real IT entry level classes. A junkyard engine @$400 could become a pretty attractive deal.

*old rules-rewrite chips if you want; don't allow other changes inside the box but don't worry about how thou police it because with stock motors a/ there's not much to gain and b/how seriously are we supposed to take this shit? A lot of what is wrong IMO (free ECU/management stuff) was because we were too intellectual and not practical about enforcement issues. And the old "but look what happened to showroom stock" argument. Again, if someone is SO serious about winning that they cheat, which would entail blueprinting, etc, what else is new?
we have the same problem now, and enforcement/detection is perhaps even more difficult with the existing IT rules. Who has an Opel GT cam profile? B20E Volvo? There may be a template for a 2002 cam, but who is going to risk paying for a teardown, or for that matter, how to practically teardown and check an E46 cam?
Reality! What a concept. We must be practical unless we're all millionaires, but then we should race Porsche Cup and get the fuck out of IT and return it to the young dreamers that started it so long ago.

rant mode off

jjjanos

12-13-2013, 08:37 AM

There is evidence that the Hankook RS3 doesn't really get any faster when shaved. I think anyone spending money to shave the current crop of top street tires is only going to see a negligible gain. The new crop of tires don't have the same tread squirm/chunking issues the tires of a few years ago had.

Please post the independently tested technical data showing the gain and durability.

quadzjr

12-13-2013, 08:58 AM

^^^^This.

Hoosiers aren't perfect. But with proper management I get a decent life out of them and nothing like what Lizard claims with them falling off a second a lap. I ran some old Hoosers in a CCPS down at CMP until one blew out, and the time was only 2.5 seconds off my fastest SARRC time - and it blew out because it was heat cycled over 21 times and run down to the cords.

I get it that Hoosiers do not last as long as a street tire, but they are not nearly as short lived as some street tire proponents claim.

At Sebring you do see those large differences in time due to the size of the track, amount of corners, and surface. This last weekend my car was actually faster after testing (splitter and such) but was on 6-9 heat cycled hoosiers. I was 2 seconds off my pace with new hoosiers.

Just part of my upbrining and being an Engineer, but I follow the recomendations of the tire, brake, etc.. about break in proceedures.

My tires will last a while on hoosiers if I just drive the car around. If I go for a win I really have to push to make up time in the corners.. life of the tire quickly reduces then.

I know the tire wear is even worse for the FWD guys. I feel bad for them.. sometimes..haha

gran racing

12-13-2013, 09:15 AM

You screw with our lifetime stash of light 15 x 7 wheels and you will piss off way more people than you bring in.
Seriously!! The way I better manage my tire wear is by having ample wheels - at least three sets of dry wheels. If people are doing HPDEs it especially makes sense and saves costs.
Regarding the stock engines - love it in theory but don't know how to avoid the mess which happens in "show room stock". Their engine builds are not cheap if someone wants to be competitive, and it's within the tolerances so legal. Sealed engines would be nice but comes with its own series of issues.

lateapex911

12-13-2013, 09:28 AM

^^^^This.

Hoosiers aren't perfect. But with proper management I get a decent life out of them and nothing like what Lizard claims with them falling off a second a lap. I ran some old Hoosers in a CCPS down at CMP until one blew out, and the time was only 2.5 seconds off my fastest SARRC time - and it blew out because it was heat cycled over 21 times and run down to the cords.

I get it that Hoosiers do not last as long as a street tire, but they are not nearly as short lived as some street tire proponents claim.

Still, two and a half seconds is a LOT of time. I understand the best time you did is just that, a pinnacle time. But still they DO degrade. And I understand these were VERY cycled.
Of course, they degrade to street tire time levels. ;)

In my experience, if i was able to properly cycle and rest them, they were off a strong second or so (on a 65 second track) around 8 - 12 cycles. Lap record times though, were on FRESH tires, in good conditions, in morning races, usually.

Maybe we allow Hoosiers into the Street Tire sub class if they have a certain number of cycles minimum on them? Like say, 8? ;)

Greg Amy

12-13-2013, 09:42 AM

Can't remember if it was discussed in this thread, but Hoosier is replacing Spec Miata's "SM6" - which is nothing more than a re-branded 205/50-15 Hoosier R6 - with the "SM7". The SM7 is the R6 carcass using a harder, longer-lasting compound from the Grand-Am Continental series (the Contis are re-branded Ho-Hos). Reasons for this are likely two-fold: one, longer lasting tire means SM competitors spend less money*; two, a slower tire creates disincentives for competitors in other DOT classes from buying the 205/50-15 tire at the SM-subsidized price (the SM6 was ~2/3 the cost of the R6).

However...I have absolutely no doubt that once the supply chain gets filled for the Majors program, you'll see a lot of IT competitors trying out the new SM7. If I were using 205/50-15, I certainly would (I regularly bought the SM6 for the rear of my STL car). So, here's a "gateway tire" that proponents of Street Tire Evolution (c2013, Kakashi Racing) can use to attract other competitors to their cause. I have not yet found out what its "ttw" number is, but I'd not be surprised if it was a lot closer to 200 than you think...

Greg

* Which, of course, given all the discussion in this thread we know it won't do. We know that Majors SM'rs will get it in their heads that they need a new set of tires each session. Nothing you can do about that, short of marking tires and limiting the number of tires per weekend, which we can't do because of resource limitations.

Greg Amy

12-13-2013, 09:42 AM

Maybe we allow Hoosiers into the Street Tire sub class if they have a certain number of cycles minimum on them? Like say, 8?
Impossibru to enforce.

lateapex911

12-13-2013, 09:48 AM

Impossibru to enforce.
yea, you caught me between edits to add a forgotten sarcastic icon

lawtonglenn

12-13-2013, 10:33 AM

.

...they DO degrade...In my experience, ...off a strong second or so (on a 65 second track) around 8 - 12 cycles. Lap record times though, were on FRESH tires, in good conditions, in morning races...

Let me suggest that the people who aren't seeing the degradation aren't as "tire-limited", but instead have
comparatively more potential to be wrung out in their driving style.

Specifically, I speculate that the tires degrade from 100% to 90% over the 6 or 8 or 10 heat cycles, but if you are
only using them at 90% from the git-go you may never see the dropoff.

(I tried several edits of the above sentences to unsuccessfully reduce my sounding like a dick) :shrug:

.

Xian

12-13-2013, 10:44 AM

Please post the independently tested technical data showing the gain and durability.

I would but...

Hope in one hand and crap in the other. I know which one will fill first.

I'm too busy filling up one of my hands... :rolleyes:

StephenB

12-13-2013, 11:19 AM

Street tires are still slower then 10+ heat cycled Hoosiers.

Please don't push for a change over to street tires in IT. To much on the line to lose for IT... like participation!

Thanks,
Stephen

jjjanos

12-13-2013, 01:45 PM

Ron-one of my points was that IT HAS become a destination class, partly because of the failure of ALL the national sedan classes (GT, Production, SS) as well as the failure of national racing in general. And that's a problem!
IT was envisioned as a cheap, fun, low rent entry level class and it WAS.
I have hung around here and occasionally put my 2 cents in because I still care about the class, and I have argued for rules stasis. The realignment was OK and the ITAC operations manual a good thing. The rules creep, even due to seemingly benign changes, not good!! People argue that if everyone ran street tires, the serious guys would still, by driving skill and/or car development, prevail, and of course, they would.
But the also rans would be a lot closer to the point of the spear when a tire budget was no longer such an effective band-aid to well heeled contestants! I like that idea a lot! I've raced on REALLY slick street tires and am here to tell ya', it's just as exciting and challenging at 11/10s when you are restrained by traction as it is on purple crack, maybe even more so. I'm thinking B and C should go for it and see how it fleshes out.

And while on my soapbox, Another pet idea: start classifying newer cars into B&C with stock engines and manifolds (no headers) and stock ECUs*. IT B&C are suffering because newer cars are becoming more powerful and sophisticated and thus, little suited for B and C. Requiring stock engines would realign the power to weight calculus and make many econoboxes (CHEAP!!) available and eligible! A huge amount of development is required to be highly competitive (header design, +.040 overbore, blueprinting, raising compression to spec+.49!) which requires unnecessary $$$. This might bring an astonishing rebirth of the real IT entry level classes. A junkyard engine @$400 could become a pretty attractive deal.

*old rules-rewrite chips if you want; don't allow other changes inside the box but don't worry about how thou police it because with stock motors a/ there's not much to gain and b/how seriously are we supposed to take this shit? A lot of what is wrong IMO (free ECU/management stuff) was because we were too intellectual and not practical about enforcement issues. And the old "but look what happened to showroom stock" argument. Again, if someone is SO serious about winning that they cheat, which would entail blueprinting, etc, what else is new?
we have the same problem now, and enforcement/detection is perhaps even more difficult with the existing IT rules. Who has an Opel GT cam profile? B20E Volvo? There may be a template for a 2002 cam, but who is going to risk paying for a teardown, or for that matter, how to practically teardown and check an E46 cam?
Reality! What a concept. We must be practical unless we're all millionaires, but then we should race Porsche Cup and get the fuck out of IT and return it to the young dreamers that started it so long ago.

rant mode off

I have a hard time reconciling the "I just want to put a cage in my car" mantra in the above post with those who say that we are losing #s to other groups because "I want to do an engine swap" or "what do you mean I can't run my pimpy carbon-fiber hood?"

mossaidis

12-13-2013, 02:01 PM

extremist!!

StephenB

12-13-2013, 03:06 PM

I feel like we are losing to both, but then I look at NASA PT that allows for both to play together and that isn't any stronger in regards to participation... I think what we have is pretty awesome and some of us should embrace it rather than want to change it.

Stephen

Knestis

12-13-2013, 05:33 PM

And while on my soapbox, Another pet idea: start classifying newer cars into B&C with stock engines and manifolds (no headers) and stock ECUs*. IT B&C are suffering because newer cars are becoming more powerful and sophisticated and thus, little suited for B and C. Requiring stock engines would realign the power to weight calculus and make many econoboxes (CHEAP!!) available and eligible! A huge amount of development is required to be highly competitive (header design, +.040 overbore, blueprinting, raising compression to spec+.49!) which requires unnecessary $$$. This might bring an astonishing rebirth of the real IT entry level classes. A junkyard engine @$400 could become a pretty attractive deal. ...It was a formative moment for me when (admittedly years ago) I learned that a Showroom Stock spec Pontiac/Chevrolet V8 race engine cost more than a GT version of the same powerplant - from the same builder.

There's a whole raft of cars out there that fit the stock power parameters for ITB. We just have to list them.

The big answer re: engines is the same as for street tires: It is simply not possible to contain costs through rules. If someone really wanted to just "cage it and go," they could do exactly that. Run a "junkyard motor" in any IT car. No problem. But folks want to be able to do that AND be competitive... Which is fine until someone pushes the envelope a little (balance and blueprint to "stock") because they want to be competitive, too. And we all go...

:026:

K

pfcs

12-13-2013, 06:13 PM

It was a formative moment for me when (admittedly years ago) I learned that a Showroom Stock spec Pontiac/Chevrolet V8 race engine cost more than a GT version of the same powerplant - from the same builder.

There's a whole raft of cars out there that fit the stock power parameters for ITB. We just have to list them.

The big answer re: engines is the same as for street tires: It is simply not possible to contain costs through rules. If someone really wanted to just "cage it and go," they could do exactly that. Run a "junkyard motor" in any IT car. No problem. But folks want to be able to do that AND be competitive... Which is fine until someone pushes the envelope a little (balance and blueprint to "stock") because they want to be competitive, too. And we all go...

:026:

K

All true-no argument here. My SS thought flowed from early IT experience when I realized that if I wanted a 10/10ths build, the motor necessarily had to come out and apart to get the compression to within +.5 of the spec which in reality, after measurement, was closer to +.7 higher than spec due to actual chamber volume +some more from valve recession due to (legal) optimization of Volvo seats. Then there was the pretty obligatory +.030 or .040" overbore and pistons-all this because the rules demand it if one wants to be competitive. Doing these mods to our "stock" motors is expensive, and unnecessary, especially the overbore. Contemporary blocks hardly ever need it! It's from 1963 prod rules when British motors wore out in 75000 miles for chrissake. Just ditching the overbore allowance would be a quantum improvement. It would make it practical to only pull the head to prep/spec it, and go. If you want to go for that last bit and REALLY blueprint the motor, go right ahead, but I promise you, I wouldn't and I would be competitive!

Kirk-you know what the reality is here! There can be cheating done in IT that is every bit as difficult to police practically speaking as SS was. (I would say that some of the cams I mentioned are impossible to spec). If someone wants to cheat with SS motors or current IT builds, they will and in most cases, unless it is blatant, it will go unfound and unproven. We don't need to nitpick rules and throw out common sense. SS took the legality/blueprinting issues to an extreme case given the manufacturers support and advertising associated with the then high visibility national championships (ask me about Griff and the race-truck engines). We are throwing out the baby with the bathwater if we take the old SS argument.
ITB and ITC seem like a perfect place to look at re-creating an economical sandbox to play in. Allow baffled pans and instruments, but stock engine from throttle-body to exhaust manifold flange. Blue-print away if you want, but just like getting off purple crack, this PROFOUNDLY reduces the cost to compete with newer econoboxes and removes much granularity in the field. (the midfield will be much closer to the front row in performance/it will make it more of a driver's class)
You will still be able to do ALL the chassis stuff that made IT so much better than SS and the new B & C cars will be closer to the intent of the class than the current trailer queens.

Build it and they will come-and my hunch is there will be a lot of them. And when they get tired, they can always move to the next levels (A, S, & R) But if it was anything like my experiences in B, if we keep it simple and keep it economical, I'd never leave!

EDIT-and one final thought-you might include some language specific to the newly-classed stock motored cars added to B & C: "they are to provide the membership with the opportunity to compete in low cost cars with limited modifications. This class is intended to allow a variety of popular inexpensive cars to be eligible; those outside those parameters will not be classified"

Knestis

12-13-2013, 08:23 PM

jjjanos

12-13-2013, 08:50 PM

You want to make it cheaper to run? Great proposes some rules. You want to make it cheaper to run in the top of the field? No. No. No. No.

Your proposal is a lube less pranging of every owner of a current ITB driver. Their cars instantly become worthless. Hey! You can run this ITA car (with which it is easy to cheat) and spend nada on engine prep and development or you can run this real ITB car that you'll have to spend more money on when it's time to rebuild the engine.

Thank you no. That can of worms was opened long ago and you can't put the worms back. If it had been in place from day 1, yes.

You want to run your stock engine car and have fun? Great! You already can do that.! STFU and race. That isn't your request. You're demanding being able to run up front too. Nope.

pfcs

12-13-2013, 08:56 PM

So, I'll bite. Write the rule to accomplish what you envision...
I'll save you the trouble of relying on the word "stock" because Showroom Stock was "stock" and cost IT-quality dough (or more) on the open market.
K
EDIT - It would be interesting to look at the Touring engine rules. Maybe what you are really proposing is T5 and t6.

Yes, SS engine prep coast IT quality dough, but the return was much less (% power increase of legal prep). And there's less motivation when the return ratio is less favorable, especially in a regional class full of econo-boxes running street tires vs manufacturer supported televised National Championship Races.
A central point of my idea is that practically speaking, we're already there (the legality issue). There is a whole lot of areas to cheat in IT already that, in actual practice, are almost impossible to nail. It's just a reality. I think a major reason for keeping it regional is that policing it is near impossible, especially some cams, castings, etc.

I'm out of the loop these days-membership expired 2 years ago. I don't even know what T5/T6 ARE. I'm just throwing shit at the wall to see if it sticks. This will need to be a torch carried by the next generation. I hope it happens. Those that were around in 84-~90 must remember. Like the time at the Glenn ITB was it's own race-group-we had 50 cars! Those days were really something. Everybody had someone to race with and it was cheap and reliable sport.
I've always thought outside the box and I was real serious about maximizing the package. People will go there-I did and it worked-but if we do this, money won't carry near as much weight. Building a competitive car will look much more do-able to any number of just-plain-folks now sitting on the sidelines dreaming.
No shit!

Ron Earp

12-13-2013, 09:05 PM

Build it and they will come-and my hunch is there will be a lot of them. if we keep it simple and keep it economical, I'd never leave!

Your baseball field is calling - LeChump.

pfcs

12-14-2013, 12:41 AM

Your baseball field is calling - LeChump.

Your cynicism isn't helpful.
Why don't you go polish your GT-40 or do I have you confused with somebody?

Ron Earp

12-14-2013, 07:30 AM

Actually, it is somewhat constructive for a matter of perspective.

IT has been "the IT you don't like" for longer than it was the "IT you liked". The late 90s saw competitors becoming serious about IT builds, people farming parts of their build out to professional shops, and the overall bar of the class creeping upwards. By the 2000 that was in full swing with professional shops building cars and drivers with pro aspirations running in IT.

Be careful or you'll get the class with want is often mentioned on IT.com, but it is entirely true. The then-majority of IT racers created the IT that we have now.

IT has many challenges ahead of it and I'm concerned about its future. But, I'm also certain that creating new rules to try and reset the class back to 1984 won't be successful and will not breathe new life in IT. As others have mentioned, there are some fundamental problems with that approach that have been proven to not work in racing classes. The proverbial cat is out of the bag.

Lemons and Chump have extremely successful programs where racers are competing in economical cars, with minimal modifications, on street tires. I don't know if the SCCA will be able to create a new class to steal their thunder, but it would take the creation of a new class to have a chance of accomplishing that goal. Trying to morph a 30 year old class back into what it was in the first third of its existence, or to change it into competition for a fundamentally different class, is only going to diminish the ranks of current IT drivers and irrevocably damage a successful revenue generating category.

I do not have a GT40, and if you know me then you'd know I'm not a polisher, therefore I must conclude that you've confused me with someone else.

dickita15

12-14-2013, 07:54 AM

I can see Phil’s point that IT has evolved into something beyond where it was 30 years ago, a class for guys to race aged out Showroom Stock cars cheap. Over that 30 years IT has evolved to serious credible competition. I think SCCA should be better at offering ways to race for those that want to race with as little expense and hassle as possible but IT is not that place. Adding a “limited Prep” subcategory within IT is just has too high a risk of screwing up a very successful set of classes.
Again we need to find a way to embrace easy racing, and we are working on it, but IT is not that place.

jjjanos

12-14-2013, 09:04 AM

Lemons and Chump have a extremely successful programs where racers and competing in economical cars, with minimal modifications, on street tires. I don't know if the SCCA will be able to create a new class to steal their thunder, but it would take the creation of a new class to have a chance of accomplishing that goal.

Whoa... way too many differences between le Chump and us.

1. It isn't a program where racers are competing. It's a program where anybody who wants to drive on a track can compete. It's a giant game of who gets nailed by the retard this week.
2. It isn't a place where people compete in economical cars with minimal modifications on street tires. It's a place where people compete on street tires with illegal cars that, as long as the cheating isn't to egregious or blatant, you are legal.
3. And nobody was all that illegal because it wasn't srz bzns, but as people become more hard core, the cost of running up front will too and the only check on that creep is a dictator who gets to make arbitrary and capricious decrees.

Flyinglizard

12-14-2013, 09:15 AM

Put it out for member input, along with wheel size option to 7in for B and C. Pretty sure that the results will surprise.
Every 20 yrs or so, SCCA should look back and see what went wrong and adjust to modern parts availability. The IT tires have changed the feel of the class and the wheels have moved up in size, simple .

When a set of wheels and tires can cost less that 1 set of sticker Hoes, and last allyear maybe that should get thought about . .

Some body said that 180 tires had issues with the heavier FWD cars. Proper set up and pressure overcome/trim to these tires. You may need 41ish front pressure and 50 ish rear to get the same balance. The side walls are softer adn the tire rolls over a bit more.
The harder tires dont need as much spring but seem to tolerate a fairly hard setup also. Soft springs make more grip with any tire until you lose dynamic camber control.
There are plenty of front running heavy FWD cars on these tires. Mistu 3000GT, Ford Probe V6, Prelude,Ford SHO, all have multi CC race wins. ( yes, all have my book:)).
Off to test the new crap can , Nissan 300ZX.

Ron Earp

12-14-2013, 11:03 AM

Whoa... way too many differences between le Chump and us.

No arguments from me on your points. I well understand them too.

But IT can't be made into what he wants and LeChump is the closest thing out there to his ideal racing class.

pfcs

12-14-2013, 01:11 PM

My vision is of full current allowed IT chassis prep. Except for running 180 tires, nothing too look at here folks, move along.
And stock motors for newly classed contemporary cars (with much lower prep gains since they will have stock exhaust manifolds, no overbore, no half point compression increase)
The engine prep will be negligible expense and going full bore will cost a lot less; a well prepared car with a good valve job will be competitive and winning become a possibility for the budget minded with a good shoe.
It will allow many cars to become SENSIBLE additions to B & C-New Beetle?-at realistic weights that don't require drastic diets.
What has always been the critical aspect of IT was that the sensible chassis improvements provided the maximum bang for the buck while keeping costs low-Brilliant! The motors? A lot of money for nowhere near as much improvement, kind of like getting banged for bucks.
And certainly NOT LeChump!!

EDIT "But IT can't be made into what he wants and LeChump is the closest thing out there to his ideal racing class."

You don't know ME pal! The last time I raced was 2004 NARRC runoff at Limerock. I drove my 88 Golf to the track with my wheelchair on the passenger's floor. I was on pole after the first greasy session. Second session I was stymied by SM traffic and didn't improve, but morning time was till good for 2nd in ITB. I finished 2nd. I won the NYSRRC championship in B that year. The only race I didn't dive the car to was the ARRC where I wrote it of and my wife retired me. The car was 10//10ths IT prep + hand controls. I loved the car and I (still) love the class.
It is definitely MY class. The question might be appropriate-is it your's too? Can we agree to disagree? Can you consider that unless we do something different C is dead and B's prospects not so great long term as newer cars get faster every year? The is NO argument that car counts have declined precipitously since ~95-2000. Classifying exotic/expensive stuff in the upper classes isn't ideal, but OK I guess, especially for the upper class. But the feedstock of IT was always the Joe every-mans econobox, the car everyone had at one time or other, and the credible dream that they could build one and go racing on a middle class budget and that winning could be more than just a dream. That's MY class.

dickita15

12-14-2013, 01:28 PM

And stock motors for newly classed contemporary cars (with much lower prep gains since they will have stock exhaust manifolds, no overbore, no half point compression increase)

well when you say it that way maybe it does make some sense :shrug:

jjjanos

12-14-2013, 02:05 PM

Why don't you just impose a $1000 tax on every owner of a current car that could run B or C and give the money to someone who wants to build a car? That is the functional equivalent of what you suggest. Your screwing everyone in the class that already did the build.

Or outlaw the current motors entirely so we can share the pain with ITA and ITS and ITR?

Knestis

12-14-2013, 09:49 PM

It's a legitimate point that engines are simply better than they were when the IT eligibility window opened (1968). It's also fair to propose that internal tweaks simply aren't going to return the competitive value as a typical "real" IT build on a less optimized-as-stock engine. But the stock-engines model, as attractive as it might seem, is a different category - Touring.

Touring is a convergence between where "trunk kit" SS was not long ago and what IT started as. Problem is that the slowest class T4 is full of ITS-ish cars. You're talking about stock engines, in ITC-ITB power land, with IT suspension. You're talking about B Spec. Plug the next-higher performance envelope of new cars into the mix and call it T5. Take the last step and allow springs/dampers/bars (like Touring SHOULD do anyway). Soup.

K

pfcs

12-14-2013, 10:54 PM

but maybe my attachment to IT makes me reluctant to re-invent the class somewhere else. IT, IMO, isn't in the greatest place today. It has become too expensive and complicated for any number of reasons, some of them preventable; and there are so many other opportunities beckoning IT racers to stray, whether to another organization or class.
Numbers are down from 15 years and I don't see that trend reversing, especially in the new economy. Bread and butter issues matter. Maybe T4 & 5 would work-we DO need another class, don't we? NOT!
I feel that ITC & ITB are were the spawning grounds for the grass roots that launched that great improved touring momentum-most of which is lost and, also, unfortunately forgotten. I still see it having the possibility of a renaissance.
And regarding B & C driver's being resentful for a class reinvigorated? Why?

pfcs

12-14-2013, 10:58 PM

It's a legitimate point that engines are simply better than they were when the IT eligibility window opened (1968). It's also fair to propose that internal tweaks simply aren't going to return the competitive value as a typical "real" IT build on a less optimized-as-stock engine. But the stock-engines model, as attractive as it might seem, is a different category - Touring.
K

Consider that the overbore rule is 63 production rules-rules that governed cars that in 63 included MG TDs and Healy 100/4s, etc. Wasn't really that relevant to most 68 blocks, but in the 80s manufacturers turned a page. When was the last time you had a ring job?

RSTPerformance

12-14-2013, 11:26 PM

Wow... This thread goes from a review and "announcement" of a local series to a fight over tire rules that don't exist (did anyone actually write the CRB after all that?), to engine rules...

Raymond "forget all this other stuff Santa, i just want new FIA belts so I can put those perfectly good out dated ones that are in my racecar now back on a shelf - time sure goes by fast..." Blethen

Knestis

12-14-2013, 11:35 PM

IT became expensive for ONE REASON - competitiveness. And it hasn't been a bolt-in-a-cage-and-race deal since the late '80s.

Reluctance to let the category "go National" left room for Prep 2 Production and ST, both of which are pretty IT-like, and effectively doomed Improved Touring.

K

Ron Earp

12-15-2013, 09:34 AM

I agree with you Kirk and your prognosis is what concerns me about IT, not relatively minor issue engine rules or dead classes (ITC, less than 50 entries for 2013 in the entire SE Division, <3% of total, and most of those entries are from three competitors).

There are too many competing classes drawing on IT and the most threatening come from within the SCCA. Cannibals are we. The organization has too many classes and still maintains the National/Regional distinction, much to the detriment for the average ametuer racer that pays the bills and keeps the lights on.

lawtonglenn

12-15-2013, 10:40 AM

...Cannibals are we. The organization has too many classes and still maintains the National/Regional distinction...

+1

which is the main source of my heartburn about sub-classes and sub-sub-classes

.

gran racing

12-16-2013, 09:14 AM

Put it out for member input, along with wheel size option to 7in for B and C. Pretty sure that the results will surprise.
I have a difficult time believing that existing racers want to go out and replace all of their wheels. New people to the sport? That I'd buy much more so.

Your screwing everyone in the class that already did the build.
Well, not really. The new cars would use an adjusted classification calculation. I can agree on the point where it's time for me to build a new engine this winter and not having to worry about the block would be nice. If I fell into one of those who still needed to, I can see how I'd fall into one of those who got screwed. Tough call.

quadzjr

12-16-2013, 09:43 AM

I have a difficult time believing that existing racers want to go out and replace all of their wheels. New people to the sport? That I'd buy much more so.

I agree with Dave, people that want if for a performance gain (like myself)I would like it, if I was building something. However I have already spent a metric crap ton on 14x6 and 15x6 wheels to supply the car with a qualifying set, racing set, spare set, and rain set. Going to a 7" wheel when the current rule currently satisfyies everything.. just would put a thorn in my side. What it would do is create a bigger gap between top level teams and the mid pack.

Most of ITB/ITC runs on a 205 wheel anyways. This fits (both R comp and street tire) just nicely. There are a few of us (myself included) that run 225 R comps on 6" wheels.. not sure if a 225 street tire will fit on a 6" wheel. somebody would have to try it out.

Well, not really. The new cars would use an adjusted classification calculation. I can agree on the point where it's time for me to build a new engine this winter and not having to worry about the block would be nice. If I fell into one of those who still needed to, I can see how I'd fall into one of those who got screwed. Tough call.

I am in the boat of having to source a new block as of yesterday.. built it to the tilt the first time around.. lasted a few years. Unitl something changes the new motor will be built in a similiar fashion.. but not as extreme or as $$$. Cubic dollars for tenths of hp.. pointless.