Self-policing +

[quadzjr]

So there has been a on going idea that they guys down in FL cheat their a$$ off. Now a lot of strides have been completed to correct that thinking but I think more has to be done. I know myself I know of illegal cars and due to the complexity of making a formal protest or in general like the guy that is offending I have done little to do any policing. The only time it came close to it was when I was beat out by a driver at Sebring. After the race I thought nothing of it, as getting passed in a straight was norm. Later I found that the driver had a JDM engine in his car. My crew and others in class went to talk to this person and the offender got very defensive and aggressive. He kept his points and his position but I never raced against him again. Later I saw he built an ITA car that rolled up to qualifying had about 10 things visually illegal with it. On grid for qualifying I just mentioned it to a few ITA guys there to bring it to their attention. I have not seen it since.

So my point of this is I am not a fan of hostility, but I am a fan of fair and clean competition. How would I implement or propose a blanket wide easy/cheap inspection. Inspection of the simple things like Cam lift and compression. Going on 6 years of racing in this series I have not once seen this whistler machine and have never seen valve lift checked in IT. I know this happens at the ARRC but a lot of the people down here do not run it.

So how do we get say the top 5 and whomever else that would like to join up for the next race at to get their CR and valve lift checked. After what Mike M. has said and others I think it would be good to do to flush out the illegal cars. I can see people that are illegal being highly against the idea. I also see people saying they do not want to pull the valve cover off their engine. My fear is that if a blanket protest initiated by me would result in a backlash of revenge (tearing the motor down to the crank just because before a race), obviously I would run my car as well, and I do no know what is involved with the whistler but I would be willing for inspection every race or random.

So how to accomplish this task? My assumption was all cars were pretty much legal up front but then realized that all of the cars sans 1 do not attend a race that your car actually gets inspected so what prevents them from another .5 CR? Or that cheater VW cam mike was talking about?

[Matt93SE]

Not much help in your area, but at the SWDIV Regional Championship race last weekend, they were playing with a whistler in impound. unfortunately it was reading low to cars with known values.

I offered to let them check my car (factory stock internals- never had head gasket off), but they never got to it.

Anyway, there are a few floating around..

[Greg Amy]

Not a lot of time to respond in detail, but...

- Are you fairly certain there actually is an issue, or does it just appear that way?
- The change has to come as a change to the culture, and change that says "we do not tolerate cheating, it's not OK".
- That change to the culture likely has to come from targeted protests and teardowns. It's unlikely, unless you have a friend in Tech, that the region will take the initiative.

We had a perceived culture of cheating in New England a few years ago; guys were playing with the edges in engine builds. A few targeted tear-downs later, I think we have a strong culture here of "we don't tolerate that, don't even try".

- GA

[JeffYoung]

It's always amusing to tow to Daytona and see what Florida has to offer. As a mostly outsider, I'd say:

1. Friendly, really cool bunch of racers. LOTS of IT cars. Daytona is awesome.

2. The fast guys in the classes I race with -- R/S/A/7 -- all seem legit and legal with some exceptions.

3. The cheats on one or two fast cars I saw were all aero related: shaved door handles, no wipers, stuff like that. Annoying stuff.

4. Then there is just some flat out blatant "I obviously didn't read the rules or obviously don't care about them" crap. The orange ITR 911 with the Lexan rear window with holes drilled in it. Last year, the ITS E36 Bmw (that was dog slow) with an unpainted carbon fiber trunk lid. And so on.

There definitely is a Mad Max mentality to what goes on down there, and some "run whtat you brung" stuff, but again, the fast S cars all looked and seemed legit to me. Racing was great, Sunday race with Marc Daa, Bill Quinn and Tim Jenurm was awesome.

Plus, 22 S cars!

[Greg Amy]

...Then there is just some flat out blatant "I obviously didn't read the rules or obviously don't care about them" crap...a Mad Max mentality to what goes on down there, and some "run whtat you brung" stuff...
We handle those one-on-one, and "gently" nudge them over to IT Everything. They either soon get the word they need to meet the regs to play in IT outside ITE, or they start going mental and trying to modify the cars to go even faster...

[shwah]

In my experience, the best way to do this is to lead by example. We had a case of a car showing up and being VERY fast on the straights, delivering lap record times, yet being poorly driven overall. He would only show up every few years. When I saw him on an entry list, I did some research on the car, what it should be capable of, and what cheats would help it. Then I approached him before the first session for our group, complimented him on the build quality of the car and asked him if it was legal. I explained that our IT group enjoyed close, hard fought, but legal competition, and we expected anyone joining us to do the same. When he said of course its legal, I asked him about the specific parts that were most likely not correct. He stuck to his story. So I simply told him that if he took the track in Q1, I would write paper to check bore, stroke, crank part number, head porting and cam. His story changed to just needing a race to keep his license current, so I approached the officials about helping him move to another class that he was more correctly prepped for. He ended up running in STU for the weekend, and the message was clearly sent.

I did not want to be a jerk, or confrontational, or ruin someone's fun, but I figured that if I didn't do something I had no right to ask others to self police the class as well.

That one incident had a clear effect of solidifying the opinion of all our regulars to emphasize legal prep. It could have gone another way, and created a crap-storm, but letting it go would have reinforced the wrong kind of culture IMO.

[Flyinglizard]

The most effective way that I have seen was to announce in the flyer for the race, and in the supps that VC were going to be taken off and cams checked. And to bring the tools/people and parts to do this on SAT afternoon.
The valve covers did not come off ,but some of the cars slowed down.
Maybe put a short article in the CFR paper with your concerns, would be a smart start.
Throwing paper pisses people off. Having mam to man talks with maybe 1 beer( not 4) might be more tolerated . Most of these guys are pretty nice. but as the rules get let go , "everyone is doing it" comes into play.

FWIW I dont see a legal Toy running with a legal Mk 3 VW.
I have worked with both .
Be careful ,The 5-6 ITB cars that race in CFR might not race at all and then what do you have besides one trophy.

RE concerning visible issues like wiper blades. Some guys really dont know the rules. Tell them to put the wiper back on please.
How about the new Dodge 024 that had all of the car gutted etc. I talked to him for a few minutes, asked about the car, as it was really pretty just not legal. I mentioned that I ran Prod and did not know the current rules for IT, so I sicked Chip on the guy and he took his car and stayed home(I was pretty sure thatChip is more politically nicer than I) . The car was more of a Prod car . But pretty sure that we still lost him .
MM

[quadzjr]

I was specifically talking about ITB in general. I know and have talked plenty to the ITS guys and honestly it is what makes me want to build/buy an ITS car. I really enjoy racing the group that shows up to most SARRC races they guys are ran with at the SIC have been a blast to race against (even though one is blatant illegal and did affect the outcome of the race). It is the others that I see having poor exits out of corners, then have to lift to keep from rear ending people at the end of the straights like they are toying with them. It is easy to see when all you do is stare at the back of them lap after lap until they are out of sight.

I know there are cars that are not the same and have no chance that is all in classing and that is not something I can change. I do not expect legal for legal a MK3 VW to compete against my MR2.

What I would like to do is eliminate/reduce the cheating. I like the idea of a putting it in the Supps but not following through would be like crying wolf. I also do not want to eliminate my competition by pushing them out.. I want them legal. Mike and chip know more about what is going around in my area in the slower classes.

Though my sample size has not been that great, but every IT motor that I have torn down that was built by another builder was illegal in some way and one was a big named reputable shop, maybe owner asked them to do so? A few of the cheats would be tech shed legal-ish.. others would require tear down to find. Most of the issues I have found are in the cylinder head prep and valve train. I have found Illegal valve springs, cams, pistons, porting, you name it in the few that I have rebuilt from another builder. Personally, and it may not be good business but I will not build a cheater engine. If you want to cheat, you will have to swap over the illegal parts after delivery.

damn I get side tracked easy.. so anyways. I have suspicion that a few are illegal not all. But in lieu of singling out a few, I would like to change the culture and get all buy in.

[Andy Bettencourt]

We had a perceived culture of cheating in New England a few years ago; guys were playing with the edges in engine builds. A few targeted tear-downs later, I think we have a strong culture here of "we don't tolerate that, don't even try".

- GA

Plus the time you donated with Nick on the voluntary compression check was cool too.

[Chip42]

MOST of the problem in FL stems from the Miami area FARA racers who don't appear to even have a rulebook. outside of ITB, most of the cheaters are pretty obvious and usually not quick. the CFR ITB guys are largely legal - there's one VERY questionable car I know of. his crew and the guy who built/tuned his engine have both pretty much said directly that it's illegal. there was that D15B Vtec CRX that we had an issue with but we never saw him again. he did show up with a flared fender, CFRP hooded, slicks-having "ITS" integra the next year but haven't seen that again either. a couple of AE86's certainly sound like they have more than stock cams but again - until they are running in front of mid pack ITC cars I really don't care.

so I don't think the problem is systemic.

the dodge was a bunch of stupid stuff. a lot of the "racecars don't" (wipers)and "I don't think it's safe to keep that" (headlights) type crap. the motor looked OK and on track it certainly wasn't anything to worry about.

when you start a witch hunt you risk scaring off the racers. there's only 1-2 cars we're really worried about. we should just talk to THEM. having a pow-wow at events among all drivers of a certain class or category (ask Rick @ tech to impound all IT or ITB cars after the SAT race or qualifying, and start talking)is a good way to make it clear that what's going on is known, and to get a good vibe from the assembly that they don't care (i.e. it's going to stay that way) or the majority are tired of it too and want to see it stopped. that should send the message without ruffling too many feathers.

if you want to get into CR tests, Fred Clark should be able to supply the whistler and expertise to use it. most cars in ITB especially do not have top center pulgs though, so establishing actual bore and stroke will not be an option without pulling the head, at which point you don't need the whistler anyway. throwing correct by the book numbers at the machine should give you a good start, though. what event to use this at, though? I could see using it at a SARRC, especially a well attended and early-in-season one to set the tone, but not a CFR regional.

[Knestis]

Sorry - I don't think there's any easy, painless way to achieve the stated goals here without a huge commitment by regional powers-that-be. If you can get them to commit to ARRC-style post-race inspections, more power to you but I don't think that's likely. If you DO make noises about that kind of thing, you *must* follow through. (Think about that out-of-control kid at Walmart being told for the 10th time that he's being told the LAST TIME, dammit!!)

I'd simply hit the worst offenders and work back through the list until you get to a level that you're collectively comfy with.

Having dealt with Scott Hileman (aka the Fastest MkI GTI in the World) at the 2011 IT Fest (including giving his engine a good look-see post-race), I let him know that I planned on coming back in 2012 and "looked forward to racing him in legal cars." I emailed him a couple months before the event and let him know that I was prepared to file a protest and again encouraged him to show up with the right stuff. (I got no response.)

After first practice, I took the paperwork I'd prepared in advance (including pictures of what a STOCK MkI GTI throttle body looks like, vs. the Audi unit he had) to try to talk with him in person. I got told to "fuck off," that he was just trying to have fun with his family. I explained that I was sorry he felt that way, that the event (and the ITNT points) was kind of a serious thing, and that I'd be protesting him.

Which I did.

He got bounced out of the points but was allowed to run, on a plea deal after admitting guilt to the tech guy for the obvious stuff that didn't require a teardown. I didn't have any additional trouble with him, although I did put an extra GoPro in the car so I had video front and back - just in case. :)

Now, I have zero idea if he came back this year legal. I would hope so. I wish it could have been handled amicably but it couldn't. I got to be the jerk but that's kind of how the process is supposed to work. To their FULL credit, the MO stewards handled the process WAY better than either of the previous protests I was involved in, back in the day.

Short answer: Use the system.

K

[quadzjr]

Kirk, as I am not familiar with the other marques as much and an obvious (well I would assume it would be) different TB on the car would be an easy call as far as protesting goes. What would you have done if it was an internal modification? Just assume he was that good? I know if I was looking at the golf you were talking about.. I would not know about the TB. Example, Chip mentioned another toyota product with good money was invested, accidently told me that he did evertying including the cams, and then we he drives or at idle it does not sound right. It could be a Vac leak for all I know.. but I am leaning towards not.

I do not have money or time to solely single out all the cheaters so the process does not work in this situation really as I would like to not just focus on what is infront of me, but behind as well.

Others, I was thinking the same. I would like to do it early.. Maybe talk to the group at the turkey trots and propose an idea of doing "something?". This way they have all winter before cabin fever to make it right if they are not legal. So it should lessend the blow. It has to be at a large race with high attendance to get it out to the most people. I do not want to throw paper, but if we get the majority of people on board as and I don't see why they wouldn't if they are majority legal.

Not even sure how the whistler works so unfamiliar on that point. The simple fact that it is being used might get people to change their game.

I do not want to push people out, but I also do not want to race against cheaters. It is assumed that the majority of cheating goes on in teh mid and back part of the track, and yet they do not affect my race personally, I still think they should be legal. If any car is illegal I feel any person they beat got robbed.

What I need to figure out and this is where I need the groups here help.. is what is the process to accomplish the goal that I work to propose to the ITB group. If it works heck, maybe it can be spread to other groups. They do a similiar thing at roundy round tracks all the time. It is just part of the culture to inspect after the race. We have alot of cars and alot of classes so it is not as feesible, but something can be done.

[JeffYoung]

Many know the story, but opposite experience here.

First, agree with Kirk: no clear and easy answer. It all depends on the stewards, the racer, his personality, etc.

Our experience. We had a guy who had been an obvious cheater in IT7 (drilled rear bumper discovered when the cover was knocked off, switch on the gearshift to blip the thottle since he couldn't heel and toe, etc.) move to ITS. First season he was slow,second year he built a motor off season and showed up at VIR and was five seconds faster.

After several weekends of all of us running close enough to him to suspect the motor (an ITS RX7) was not kosher, and after consulting some Mazda gurus, we showed up at our Memorial DAy event ready to file paper and with a promise the tear down could be down that evening in the Tech Shed for $1500 so that he could race the next day if legal.

We had a lng debate about talking to him first and decided not to . Probably a mistake, not sure. I suspect he ould have changed the motor out and used the illegal one more judiciously but who knows.

We protest. And it's not just one ITS driver, it's five of us. Stewards try to talk us out of doing so. Continually raise the bond until it's like $3k or something (saying they had consulted with Roger Mandeville who was at the track). Wanted to allow the engine builder (I keed you not) to take the car and do the tear down over a couple of week period. And so on, and so on.

Driver was reasonably polite at first and then (by his own admission) tried to take me out in the race becauase he was "mad" and then, after spinning in his attempt to do so, would proceed slowly around the track, wait for each of the protestors to come along, and then follow us on our bumpers for a few laps. Control let him do that.

IN the end, after lots of discussions with us, the stewards and the driver, and the driver claiming he didn't want the motor torn down because it may not be built back the same (yep), we agreed he would waive all SARRC points or races run that year, and run the next day in STL.

So still don't know if the car was legal.

That said, the car has never been as fast in a straight line and I think we made a point.

But would I do it again? Probably not. It ruined that weekend and the rest of the year with angst, and set bad precedent when we started to have issues with the same driver causing a lot of wecks.

Bottom line: I have no good answer. I think contributing stories helps, but that is all I can do.

Some of the obvious cars in Florida? Yeah, I'd tell them they were illegal, although like KVS told me about teh ITR Porsche with the lexan: he just didn't care enough to protest ifthe guy was going to run 15 seconds a lap slower, which he did.

It becomes a much harder question when it is a competitive car. I think talking to the driver is probably the best approach if I had a do over, but unfortunately my experience with protests is I would think long and hard about doing one again.

[slopok]

[QUOTE=Chip42;351177] a couple of AE86's certainly sound like they have more than stock cams but again - until they are running in front of mid pack ITC cars I really don't care.


So a car can be illegal as long as it doesn't run up front? It sounds as if you don't care about the "mid pack guys". Rules are rules and should be the same for Everyone competing front to back. Please clarify your statement.

[mossaidis]

slopok... don't take Chip's personal opinion as SOP.

[shwah]

Starting with a discussion is definitely an important element, even though the response might be the one that Kirk received. I also had a case of a mk3 VW racer that had an alternate radiator mounted in a different plane than stock, and a smaller battery. I politely mentioned that I didn't think he fit the rules, he said he would check it out, and the next race weekend his stuff was right. We were friends before and after, so that made a difference, but even if I didn't know a guy, I would politely tip my hand before throwing paper - though always being prepared with knowledge, and teardown bond to follow through if it fails.

[Chip42]

Slopok, I *AM* a midpack guy. and I care - more than you could imagine. but if a cheater is running around in the back somewhere it's going to be harder to focus attention, energy, and money (should an official protest come to pass) in getting him fixed. being midpack, a lot of these guys see nothing wrong with what they are doing. they know they are cheating and even THAT isn't getting them the ashtray so obviously (to them) EVERYONE is cheating OR it simply doesn't matter because they aren't disrupting the championship.

it's a really difficult mentality to deal with, and challenging them enough can lead to chasing them away, even if all you were trying to do was get them to stay, but become legal, or even to change classes to something that their car would be legal in as is. if they race clean and safe and show up and pay entry fees while cheating and NOT disrupting the points for the legal, fast guys, that's a loss for the club. so a lot of people are going to resist the urge to "do anything" about it. thus "I really don't care" if they aren't causing a problem.

[quadzjr]

Many know the story, but opposite experience here.

...

we showed up at our Memorial DAy event ready to file paper and with a promise the tear down could be down that evening in the Tech Shed for $1500 so that he could race the next day if legal.

We protest... Stewards try to talk us out of doing so. Continually raise the bond until it's like $3k or something. Wanted to allow the engine builder (I keed you not) to take the car and do the tear down over a couple of week period. And so on, and so on.

Driver was reasonably polite at first and then (by his own admission) tried to take me out in the race becauase he was "mad" and then, after spinning in his attempt to do so, would proceed slowly around the track, wait for each of the protestors to come along, and then follow us on our bumpers for a few laps. Control let him do that.

...

It becomes a much harder question when it is a competitive car. I think talking to the driver is probably the best approach if I had a do over, but unfortunately my experience with protests is I would think long and hard about doing one again.

I was there that weekend and was paddocked close to you Kirk and Steve E. I could not beleive what was going on. What you describe is exactly what I want to avoid and infact your story and others has kept me from doing so (Filing protest).

[Ron Earp]

I was there that weekend and was paddocked close to you Kirk and Steve E. I could not beleive what was going on. What you describe is exactly what I want to avoid and infact your story and others has kept me from doing so (Filing protest).

I wish I could tell you different, but as one of the drivers involved in that protest I have to say my experience deters me from considering a protest in the future. That was the worst racing weekends I've ever had and I'm sure that statement goes for anyone who was involved, protester or protestee. Racing sure ceased to be fun for those few days.

If a situation like that presented itself in the future I believe I would attempt to handle it at the racer to racer level as opposed to using official channels. I felt like too many barriers were erected at the official level, with some unreasonable conditions and possible outcomes, that generated a scenario with a high probability for an ambiguous result. And it created a lot of bad blood between individuals that might could have been avoided.

Looking at it from the other side, if I were to be protested I’d lobby for a person to person solution. I would offer that we look at heads, cams, part numbers, or whatever it is they want to see instead of doing a full on SCCA protest. If something is wrong I'd work to get it fixed, and hopefully satisfy their inquiry while maintaining a friendly atmosphere. After all, we go to the track to race and hang out with people who are like-minded individuals so we should all get along fine.

But what happens if you don’t know the people or they are out of region or new? I don’t think I’d approach it any differently. New folks would certainly be the easiest situation since they typically like to absorb knowledge and learning to do things right upfront is general welcomed. Talk with them like Kirk suggests, see if some common ground can be found, and hash it out. If that didn't work out, maybe discuss with other in-class racers and try a second time.

But if you decide to go with a protest brace yourself for what could come down the pipe. At a recent protest bird shooting, name calling, and angry family members/crew have been observed, so it’s proof positive not everyone can conduct themselves in a sportsmanship like manner. A shame really, since racing is a fun hobby, and if you're not in it for that you should be racing somewhere else.

[seckerich]

I had a weekend at Roebling where Kent Thompson and I got together and asked that all the BMW's be checked for restrictor plates. This was in the days before the SIR because we were being told they were not really that fast and that most were just not running them. We were screaming at the CRB to get off their butts and fix the problem they created. To not single anyone out we did all of them. I had a driver come up very hurt we would ever think he was cheating and I realized you never do a blanket protest. Lesson #1

Involved in protest of Chet Whittel at CMP in the Orange BMW after seeing 20 car lengths pulled on us at VIR. Made a call to chief of tech and had everything brought by them to track to tear it down next race. Head, cams, rods,everything. Tech had them on the table Friday night and the car never came out of the trailer. Protested anyway because it was registered and the bond went way above what I had brought that was reasonable. Had to let it drop.

Involved in the protest Jeff mentioned of the RX7 and would have paid the entire bond to see the inside of that rocket. Yes, it was not fun, but it was a car winning races that I believe 100% was illegal. Future performance backs that up.

Protests suck, period.

Either way you go remember these are friends in most cases you are running against and many do not have the same ambitions you do. They sometimes ignore the rules and just want to race. No big deal, but pick a catch all class if you do not want to be legal and have at it. Picking the entire class and insinuating they are cheating is a bad way to start.

If you are protested they have to post bond to put you back together. Do like I do and invite them to watch.

[quadzjr]

Right now I would welcome a tear down on someone else's dime. I am planning on rebuilding after the next race as I hurt it a bit at the SIC and now down 10psi on 2 of the 4 cylinders.

Would suck to get torn down after I made the trip to the track.. but hey..

So it sounds like a blanket protest is not the best. hmm...

[Ron Earp]

I had a weekend at Roebling where Kent Thompson and I got together and asked that all the BMW's be checked for restrictor plates. This was in the days AFTER the SIR because we were being told they were not really that fast and that most were just not running them.

Did you mean after? Otherwise I can't make sense of the inquiry into the BMW drivers.

[Greg Amy]

If memory serves, we tried flat plate restrictors on the BMWs before we went SIR.

Related note: a lot of folks ask "why won't the scrutineers tear down engines?" Simple answer is that unless it's put into the supps (such as it is for the ARRC and Runoffs) if a tear-down is done then the Region has to pay for the repairs if the engine is found compliant. No one's going to do that.

It's easy to get away with non-destructive tests (e.g., Whistler, weights, track, brake size, checking for plates, etc) but you'll be hard-pressed to find a region and/or its scrutineers that will take the initiative to do tear-downs. - GA

[Knestis]

To your question, Steven, I had zero idea when I started the process with Hileman, what I was looking for. I started by asking around (including here) what the easy cheats would be for a MkI Rabbit GTI - cam came back as number one since there are lots of cheap easy options that still idle OK, 2.0 bottom end (which would be visible externally, as there's a mark cast in the block, and the throttle body off of an Audi 5000 of the same age. I did some internet research and found pictures of the two parts, which (luckily) were visibly different from the outside since the bore diameter of the wrong one was so much bigger.

I decided in advance I didn't want to go so far as to tear anyone's junk completely down, but knowing that looking at the cam (the cheater versions of which would also have marks or evidence of where the marks were removed) wouldn't cost a ton or leave him with a pile of parts in the grass, I was prepared with a stack of 20's to do that.

I presented my protest with the items in order from cheap and easy to find, to pulling the cam cover. The stewards asked if it would be OK if they started with the visible issues and then if necessary came back for a bond to pop his top. Sure. Off the tech guy goes to make a housecall, with my paperwork and fee on file. 30 minutes later he's back. Guilty.

Short answer is that you have to do your homework. I recommend being strategic. It might sound like being a chickenshit to protest something that's minor but visible, but if you're confident someone is cheating, that will be a shot across their bow.

This topic comes up pretty regularly here, and in the paddock, and sadly we ARE influenced by reluctant stewards as well as the desire to not turn a fun weekend into a bummer. I didn't mention it but I also did my homework re: next steps if I'd been stonewalled by the guys/gals with whom I was supposed to file my complaint.

They are protestable, too. And they don't require a bond for teardown.

K

EDIT - I went to the SIC a few years ago ready to file a protest too, with specs and part numbers and stuff. I elected on that weekend to NOT file it because I frankly thought I was driving like crap and didn't deserve to beat the guy. There's no right decision for everyone.

[StephenB]

To not single anyone out we did all of them. I had a driver come up very hurt we would ever think he was cheating and I realized you never do a blanket protest. Lesson #1



Protests suck, period.

.

Hmmmmm.... next year I will most likely be protesting every ITR and ITS BMW on bore and stroke. It's a common and easy performance enhancer to swap in a 3.0 crank. This year a few of them had done it and when asked it was rumored that I would be surprised at how many did. I find that hard to believe but to keep it simple and not single out anyone I was going to do all of them. I had made a plan that each weekend if a new car showed up I would do that one as well. To stop the rumors and make sure everyone was playing fairly.

Now maybe I am thinking that isn't the best idea.?.

Stephen

[Greg Amy]

Now maybe I am thinking that isn't the best idea?

Why are we worried about hurting someone's fragile ego? If they're compliant, then they should look at it as an opportunity to demonstrate that.

If we don't want to hurt feelings, maybe we should give everyone a trophy? I know I've been unhappy sometimes not getting one.

- GA

[StephenB]

That is how I felt, especially since checking bore and stroke is not a hardship on anyone.

Stephen

[Knestis]

Oh, yeah, Blethen? Well, we're going to protest YOUR bore and stroke. How do you like THAT??

K

[StephenB]

Just don't check my special cams for next year :)

[JeffYoung]

I totally agree on do your homework. Probably our biggest failing in our protest.

I had no idea what it took took to protest a 13b rotary, how to determine if it had been ported, the effectiveness of a lollipop, etc. All of that really handicapped the protest because we didn't know exactly what we were looking for.

Of course, after taking a hard look at rotary legality issues after the protest, and talking at lenght with a lot of folks, I'm not sure it is always possible to determine if a rotor housing has been ported or is stock.

[Ron Earp]

Hmmmmm.... next year I will most likely be protesting every ITR and ITS BMW on bore and stroke. It's a common and easy performance enhancer to swap in a 3.0 crank. This year a few of them had done it and when asked it was rumored that I would be surprised at how many did.

Really? Those cars can make a lot of power legally, do they need to resort to that in order to get more power?

There aren't a lot of these cars running down in the SE, but there are a few. They seem to be a bit faster than the ITS cars which is what I'd expect and I think they're legal down this way.



If memory serves, we tried flat plate restrictors on the BMWs before we went SIR.


Ahhh, I vaguely remember that.

[924Guy]

He got bounced out of the points but was allowed to run, on a plea deal after admitting guilt to the tech guy for the obvious stuff that didn't require a teardown. I didn't have any additional trouble with him, although I did put an extra GoPro in the car so I had video front and back - just in case. :)

Now, I have zero idea if he came back this year legal. I would hope so...

I'm not certain, having not been out there, Dan would have to comment... but I didn't get the impression the car was any different this year. :shrug:

[gran racing]

Why are we worried about hurting someone's fragile ego? If they're compliant, then they should look at it as an opportunity to demonstrate that.

I don't care if someone protests me if done in a some-what friendly manner. Meaning not just done to be malicious. In the past when a few people mentioned in passing about protesting the top ITB drivers, I told them they should do it and I welcomed them to also check out my car even without that. I took that as a compliment.

[seckerich]

Yes, it was during the flat plate restrictor days when they just moved them off center and made a little more power. CRB said we were crazy, and they were just not running them if they were still that strong. Bad days for all involved and made bad feeling for what should have been good friends. Never want to be in that position again. Deal with the problem child, not the group. You take one down the rest get the picture. :023:

[Ron Earp]

I don't think I was racing then, or if I was I don't remember it.

So they had to put a flat plat restrictor in front of the TB? How much smaller than the TB plate was it? And they could move it to one side or the other to negate it?

[AE86ITA]

Isn't there an instrument that looks like a lab in a suit case that connects to the spark plug hole and once the engine is rotated it calculates both displacement and compression ratio, all without having to open the engine.

Thanks,

[Cluelessmale]

So why have rules about things, if there is no way of policing them/cost effective way?

[Z3_GoCar]

I don't think I was racing then, or if I was I don't remember it.

So they had to put a flat plat restrictor in front of the TB? How much smaller than the TB plate was it? And they could move it to one side or the other to negate it?

The flat plate restrictor was in the 06 timeframe. It's a 0.06" thick steel plate with a 56mm hole, with a 0.25" spacer for clearance for the butterfly, no radiusing allowed. In my 06 GCR is mistakenly listed under the 89-91 e30 325 and not the 92-95 e36 325. There's nothing about it having the hole concentric to the TB, it just says you will have a plate with this size hole in it. I just measured a stock butterfly it's a hair over 2.5" so I'd say 65-66mm. There's a 90* elbow directly in front of the TB so it makes sense that having it off set would minimize the effect of the flat plate as the inside is probably seperated.

[Knestis]

So why have rules about things, if there is no way of policing them/cost effective way?

My successful protest cost a few hours and a few dollars. A LONG way from "no way" or not "cost effective."

We have a system. We just have to use it.

K

[StephenB]

Yup $25 to check bore and stroke :-)

[awegrzyn]

Good topic. Always valid in motorsports.

There is another way to police legality of cars in the club. Instead of "looking" for illegal cars, which is very difficult, I would not allow them to become illegal in the first place. This is how I would do this in my club:

When your car is teched for the first time, or when you're the new owner of the car you get a list of things you must check for legality in a given class. Each item on the list will have a fine fee associated. You check your car and sign the list. In case you get caught the first time you pay the fee, plus all your points are removed. Car held as a bond until you pay the fee.

On the second count your car is taken away and auctioned off. Proceeds from the auction are divided and send back to the participates of that race as refund money, or credit towards next race.

Problem solved. There would be less cheating.

Also, it would help to capture sector times in order to filter cars (possible candidates for impound) that are going faster than physically possible.

[Peter Olivola]

Please expand on the two highlighted items paying particular attention to time, staffing and financial resource requirements.


Good topic. Always valid in motorsports.

There is another way to police legality of cars in the club. Instead of "looking" for illegal cars, which is very difficult, I would not allow them to become illegal in the first place. This is how I would do this in my club:

When your car is teched for the first time, or when you're the new owner of the car you get a list of things you must check for legality in a given class. Each item on the list will have a fine fee associated. You check your car and sign the list. In case you get caught the first time you pay the fee, plus all your points are removed. Car held as a bond until you pay the fee.

On the second count your car is taken away and auctioned off. Proceeds from the auction are divided and send back to the participates of that race as refund money, or credit towards next race.

Problem solved. There would be less cheating.

Also, it would help to capture sector times in order to filter cars (possible candidates for impound) that are going faster than physically possible.

[slopok]

Good topic. Always valid in motorsports.

There is another way to police legality of cars in the club. Instead of "looking" for illegal cars, which is very difficult, I would not allow them to become illegal in the first place. This is how I would do this in my club:

When your car is teched for the first time, or when you're the new owner of the car you get a list of things you must check for legality in a given class. Each item on the list will have a fine fee associated. You check your car and sign the list. In case you get caught the first time you pay the fee, plus all your points are removed. Car held as a bond until you pay the fee.

On the second count your car is taken away and auctioned off. Proceeds from the auction are divided and send back to the participates of that race as refund money, or credit towards next race.

Problem solved. There would be less cheating.

Also, it would help to capture sector times in order to filter cars (possible candidates for impound) that are going faster than physically possible.

This is amatuer racing. Car taken away really, who would have that job? :rolleyes: Try and take anything I own away.

[Ron Earp]

GThis is how I would do this in my club:



Good luck getting anyone to race in "your club". What you have there is a mix of claimer rules that you see on roundy round tracks and rules from professional motorsports.

The SCCA is neither.

[awegrzyn]

Please expand on the two highlighted items paying particular attention to time, staffing and financial resource requirements.

My goal was to save time, money, and have almost no Tech staffing. Right now we have about 15 people sitting there around the Tech. Not to mention we Tech, Impound, Tear cars, and etc at every event. It costs tons of money. Why?

It would be easier to do this: Eliminate Tech staff minus one guy who can help competitors run in the event. Instead of teching/inspecting/impounding/tearing random cars at every event, you could do it randomly once or twice per season. No one would know THE date or time when the inspection happens.

Instead of using club staff I would train college students from automotive schools and pay them to do the inspection. That, or any other driver unrelated group that would want to get paid to do a good inspection. Inspections would be camera recorded without the owner being there. Inspectors would run a secret list in order to check cars. It's not difficult.

In terms of money for paid inspections I would cancel the burger and fries for the drivers (about $5000 last I checked) and used that to have smooth events. Beer would stay.

Contingency money, prices, and trophy would be announced at the end of the season where every car would already be "clear".

The loogbook that each car has would become the title that would be granted to you (land in the states is granted like that) as a privilege to race in the club. Those that do not want to race like that, we simply don't need.

[gran racing]

I'd love to see a general range of how much various items would cost to protest. Is there such a list?

One (of the many) issue I see with taking a car away is that most people don't build their own engines. Are they responsible for what happens? Yes. However when said engine builder says it's legal, they know the rules, and it's not legal.... I also realize this is why it's important to choose your builder carefully.

I still would be interested in knowing the typical amount it would cost for various items. I also know that it still varies depending on the car. I looked into a bmw 2002 cam check and the way it's built, the process was not simple. Didn't race against the guy often so it wasn't as important but was curious.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I love me some 'Impound All' and open hoods and trunks. You'd be surprised at what you see!

[Cluelessmale]

Really most people do not know what they are looking at, so they would not know what to protest on a car they have never worked on.

A butterfly being discounted, wrong stock TB or cams in the engine, three things that stand out to someone that has a few of the type of car.

There was a car at the JRRC that was "too fast" tech seem to know it but did not know what they were looking at. They were comparing internet photos to what was under the hood of this car.

I could tell you that there was two things wrong that could be seen but they are easily missed when you are using internet photos.

But I just figured if she is cheating to keep up with #1 and #2, how much are #1 and #2 cheating to be where they are.

[Peter Olivola]

Except for a few select events, we are lucky to have more than three or four people in tech at most regional events.

We also don't have cars being routinely torn down. What happens at the ARRC is more like the Runoffs than the average regional event which is to say, minimal, if any, impound tech, none of which is invasive.

You are suggesting paying someone to do the work being done now by volunteer staff. It takes several years to get an SCCA tech inspector to the point where they can supervise an event. Who's going to train the next generation?

Where are you that drivers get their lunch paid for by the organizers? Workers, yes. Drivers, not that I've ever seen.

It sounds like you have a local situation that needs to be addressed locally. The SCCA is a nationwide organization with significant differences in entry and event staffing from region to region. Your proposed "solution" would be a bigger burden on most programs than problems it would solve.


My goal was to save time, money, and have almost no Tech staffing. Right now we have about 15 people sitting there around the Tech. Not to mention we Tech, Impound, Tear cars, and etc at every event. It costs tons of money. Why?

It would be easier to do this: Eliminate Tech staff minus one guy who can help competitors run in the event. Instead of teching/inspecting/impounding/tearing random cars at every event, you could do it randomly once or twice per season. No one would know THE date or time when the inspection happens.

Instead of using club staff I would train college students from automotive schools and pay them to do the inspection. That, or any other driver unrelated group that would want to get paid to do a good inspection. Inspections would be camera recorded without the owner being there. Inspectors would run a secret list in order to check cars. It's not difficult.

In terms of money for paid inspections I would cancel the burger and fries for the drivers (about $5000 last I checked) and used that to have smooth events. Beer would stay.

Contingency money, prices, and trophy would be announced at the end of the season where every car would already be "clear".

The loogbook that each car has would become the title that would be granted to you (land in the states is granted like that) as a privilege to race in the club. Those that do not want to race like that, we simply don't need.

[quadzjr]

So how do I impound all or get the group of ITB drivers to talk it out aferwards? I assume that walking the paddock will result in little result. Get the group, explain why we need to change what is going on, and see what happens.

[Ed Funk]

Everyone finishing ahead of me is cheating....most behind me prolly are too....they're just poor drivers.:D

[Ron Earp]

Over the years we have had impound alls in the NCR/CCR region to discuss various things, mainly body contact and what not. Tech is there to perform safety primarily, not to solve your legality problems for you, therefore I recommend you talk to the steward of your group. Express your concerns to him and suggest that he have an "impound all" where he'll discuss legality and the importance of adherence to the rules. He can then talk to tech to get the impound all to occur after qualifying or the race.

You could even throw in a spot check of a component to reinforce the point. Something easy to determine but meaningful, like fifth gear ratio. If you could get ahold of a whistler that'd be an easy check. I imagine that your steward will be willing to assist and might have some ideas too.

[manny]

I have been reading along for awhile now and i have to say something. I live in Florida and i am in the CFR and also in the ITB group. I really do think we have a GREAT group of cars and drivers in our group. I can honestly say that all i can think of is maybe 1 car that might be, not good. I feel that if you think there is a problem just pull the group together and talk. If you feel that there is a " not good car" just go talk with them and express what you feel is wrong, just talk. We are all adults out here and talking goes a long way. I have raced at VIR,CMP and Lowes and the first thing after a race is that the top 5 cars are weighed and yes i have seen cars dismissed due to being light. Could be a good starting point. I myself have learned so much from watching the front runners on youtube and talking with fellow racers. You can learn so much that way. I LOVE this region and the people here. Just my .02

[Ron Earp]

I live in Florida and i am in the CFR ........ I have raced at VIR,CMP and Lowes and the first thing after a race is that the top 5 cars are weighed and yes i have seen cars dismissed due to being light. Could be a good starting point.

Question: Are you implying that light cars are not DQ'ed in FL? Surely that can't be the case.

If you guys are not QD'ing light cars then yeah, you've got to get a starting place for legality.

[manny]

I'm not implying that light cars are not DQ it's just that i havent seen it down. Just saying to maybe lets get back to basic's so we can move on and keep enjoying this GREAT hobbie that we are gifted to be able to do. My wife,kids and family enjoy the wives,kids and families of the other racers too.

[Knestis]

It should be pretty easy to see fop finishers run cross the scales at the end of every qualifying session and race...

K

[JeffYoung]

It is standard operating procedure at CMP, Charlotte, VIR and Savannah for the top 3 or 4 cars to get weighed after a race.

At Daytona this year after finishing second (by a few yards, drat), we were not weighed in impound.

[spawpoet]

I can't speak for CFR events as we haven't finished high enough to be summoned to impound at their tracks, but Fla Region scales the top cars regularly after events. I was under the impression CFR normally did as well, but I don't recall seeing it.

[lateapex911]

General thoughts:
I was involved in a infamous protest, (Written up here as "a Protest Story", I think.)

Cliff notes.
DO YOUR HOMEWORK. Know the car you are protesting. Know what it costs to do the things you want to do. organize them in alogical manner, and protest things along the teardown path. Like throttle body size.

FORM A GROUP. But keep it small, and try to have guys with different skills. You feel bad/guilty? Get somebody who's a non tech type but a crusader fro truth and justice to head it up and do the filing. Split a number of ways lessens the workload, and the financial risk.

IF YOU ARE GOING TO KILL THE KING, KILL THE KING. Do not injure the king, that just pisses him off and he semds his henchmen after you. In other words,do't let the thing go half assed. Don't have the Stewies warn him. Just do it, and STICK TO IT.

PLAN on your weekend being ruined. You will spend a staggering amount of time on it. (Less if your homework is done well). You will be all keyed up. Maintain an even stain, and be a man.

Plan to lose some money, even if you win. House keeps a percentage. ;)

Every region needs a good take no holds but respectfully done and professionally handle protest now and then. (IOW, don't be vexatious, and protest somebody just to hassle them Steve Gorrian style)

Talk to your tech guy, and request IMPOUND ALL after qualifying. Yea, people say that it's dumb, because nobody knows what they are looking at, but thats BS. SOMEBODY knows what they are looking at. Just not one guy for every car. But open hoods mean the guy cheating figures ONE of the observers might know something, and that makes them nervous. Also, minor stuff like missing heater hoses give hints, and those cars deserve a closer look. Or how about cold air sourcing? Something odd about that battery.. (hollow), and so on.

Remember what Kirk says about protesting the Stewards as well. In my case grievous mistakes were made, and I should have protested the officials, but I didn't do my homework in that area.

Talking first to a guy: In SOME cases, yes, but in others, no. You have to remember your goals. If the cheat is a "doesn't know better" deal, then yea, give him a heads up. But if it's malicoius and premeditated, then I say you premeditate a protest and carry it out in cold blood. ;)


It takes balls to protest. But it's often the RIGHT thing to do.

And don't let people talk you down, with phrases like "Why bother, it's just a plastic trophy", because thats bs. it's not about the $$, it's about the integrity.

[Flyinglizard]

There are many days at the CFR regionals where we are not weighed. Often Sun PM late in the day. Also often the scales have not been open.

More recently,this past year, the techs and the scales have been much more racer friendly.

WE all must remember that this is not pro racing. We are racing with a few guys that you should consider friends. Walk and talk among the paddock.
Sat afternoon is the good time to meet new racers and also discuss a few tech items. I have had this discussion many times . VW cam, VW gear sets etc.
Most guys are not as foreward as I am. I get that. But pushing paper should be the last defense IMHO.
My statement would be more like "I am pretty sure that your gear set is may not be legit. Could you check it before your next race? please.
The VW Mk 1 cars ; Ihave never seen the right weak cam installed in any of the cars. But they have not be raced inthe last few years. Most have simply moved on to Prod, where the light flywheels, cams etc are more legal. FWIW you can look into the VW plug hole to see the pistons' dish.

Talk first, make friends, not enemies. Please do all that we can do to keep racers. Make gentle rule discussions.
** Really some guys have no clew if the car is legal. **
The IT cars have been sold raced a long time now. Many are on the third owner, 4th log book etc. IMHO. MM

[quadzjr]

I get that we are all friends and doing this for fun. But that is no excuse to cheat.

I am not saying or threatening to tear everyone down. Manny the reason why we need to change the culture is to get everyone on the same page. Alot of people think their cams are "OK" just because racing is for fun. That makes it not fun for the rest of us. Another thing is that the car that you think might be illegal might be different than the car that I think is illegal. I am suspicious of two maybe 3 cars. One front runner, the others behind me. So who knows.. maybe people think I am illegal.

There is alot of problems with legality. Not scalling cars and people know that is just one issue. One of my competitors came to me a few years ago at Sebring and asked if I was going to pull the 200lbs of balast out of the car as I knew they were not scaling cars afterwards. I said no because I knew it would be illegal. He was planning on doing it saying "who cares?"

I have had conversations about "grey area" what is blue printing. I know some cars have blended bowls as they think it is legal to do so.

I know others have gone in great detail of how to hide porting an aluminum cylinder heads with a certain process and finishing proceedure to make look stock again.

One person even qouted that I thought was funny and sad at the time "Cheating for Safety".

One person mentioned they had cams done.. I asked him what.. he says ohh nothing.. I don't know why I said that.. then drives by in the paddock with a noticable difference in valve overlap sound.

I know one person got blank crank timing pulley and cut the keyway where they wanted based on cam timing.

This does not sound like this is "for fun". It sounds to me that alot of people are doing this to win or move up. The point is we are doing this for fun, so do not cheat. If cheating makes your car more competitive either then you can look at other ways to handle it. Ask for it to be re-classed, work on driver, or work on ways (more expensive) to make it faster legally.

What kinda scares me is that the two people that race in CFR on here both admit there is issues but warn about the consequence of it.

I know Mike no longer runs in ITB.. Come back man!

[downingracing]

If you 'know' these folks are cheating with part X, write the paper! Knowing the exact part(s) to protest make the process easy! If you are worried about being that guy, get a friend or two to go in with you. You seem very passionate about stopping cheaters (which is a good thing)! Understand the process will cost you time and money but the class/sport will be better for it in the long run.

I've only ever filed one mechanical protest. Process was easy and the stewards were a big help with what to do and who to talk to. Cam protest was going to cost me $600-ish if I lost. Well worth it to get the cheaters out. Never made it to pulling the cam - we came town agreement that moved him to last in class for the races.. (This guy cost someone the championship the previous year with this illegal car. That wasn't going to happen 2 years in a row.)

[quadzjr]

As I have only watched on teh sidelines one tear down (One that was mentioned in detail this thread). I do not know all the cheats of all teh cars. I don't know if a MK2 VW has a cheater cam like the MK1 does. I don't know if the TB off another car looks just like the factory but larger on a honda.

How do you protest a ported cylinder head if the finish was put back to factory finish? I am sure that any test you could do would result in inconclusive. So it flows better, has no casting lines.. this could just be a 1 in 100 good head.

Maybe this is bigger than I can chew. I need some help.. anybody in the CFR want to join in my cause?

Manny IM me about the illegal car youare thinking about.. it maybe the same as mine and we can talk to them.

[Knestis]

So, to the CFR situation specifically...

Get a group of like-minded folks together informally, with the mission of getting the cheating under control.

Make sure you recognize that you're talking about shifting a culture, one that's pretty entrenched and supported (explicitly or tacitly) but a lot of folks with $$ invested in their current (cheaty) positions. Commit to the challenge.

Communicate as broadly as you can - starting right now - that y'all are on a mission. It's a friendly mission but some folks' feelings might get hurt. Give 'em as much warning (this off season) as possible to get compliant or risk getting dinged.

Define a set of specific strategies to actually DING SOMEONE and put them into action. The list from this conversation is a great start:

** Get friendly tech peeps to hold "impound all" with hoods open

** Vow to collectively - and informally - point out any obvious visible illegalities that can be seen to every entrant; reinforce that, as a group, the category DOES care about whether every car is compliant

** Pick some low-hanging cheater fruit - protest visible-and-consequential items on a few cars, and protest a couple of the more grievous suspected problems that require technical help, if not invasive tear downs (e.g., pull valve covers to compare easy cam measurements [lobe height minus base circle], gearbox ratios).

We've joked about "Florida IT" for the last decade. It's part of the reason I NEVER made any effort to come there. I got a clear picture of what we'd be walking into from David Ellis-Brown's "recommendations" of what we should do to make a MkIII VW fast, back when we built Pablo I...

It would be nice to see the accepted standards change.

K

[matt batson]

So, to the CFR situation specifically...

Get a group of like-minded folks together informally, with the mission of getting the cheating under control.

Make sure you recognize that you're talking about shifting a culture, one that's pretty entrenched and supported (explicitly or tacitly) but a lot of folks with $$ invested in their current (cheaty) positions. Commit to the challenge.

Communicate as broadly as you can - starting right now - that y'all are on a mission. It's a friendly mission but some folks' feelings might get hurt. Give 'em as much warning (this off season) as possible to get compliant or risk getting dinged.

Define a set of specific strategies to actually DING SOMEONE and put them into action. The list from this conversation is a great start:

** Get friendly tech peeps to hold "impound all" with hoods open

** Vow to collectively - and informally - point out any obvious visible illegalities that can be seen to every entrant; reinforce that, as a group, the category DOES care about whether every car is compliant

** Pick some low-hanging cheater fruit - protest visible-and-consequential items on a few cars, and protest a couple of the more grievous suspected problems that require technical help, if not invasive tear downs (e.g., pull valve covers to compare easy cam measurements [lobe height minus base circle], gearbox ratios).

We've joked about "Florida IT" for the last decade. It's part of the reason I NEVER made any effort to come there. I got a clear picture of what we'd be walking into from David Ellis-Brown's "recommendations" of what we should do to make a MkIII VW fast, back when we built Pablo I...

It would be nice to see the accepted standards change.

K

I remember racing against browns jetta once or twice at sebring...

lots of hp, and would just walk me on the straights...but driver needed some work. I could beat him on the club course, but on the long course his engine was too much for me

To quadzir...
If I was still running in the CFR with my old ITB car, I would be more than happy to join in with you.
There are probably more people than you realize who are willing to take up the cause with you...you might be surprised when you start walking around the paddock to talk to other IT guys.

This is a good start, as you can do some research and maybe connect online with other CFR ITB racers...
and then next race, just walk the paddock and say what you've been saying in here.

edit...
why would it cost so much to check cams? Isnt it just a valve cover removal? That shouldn't take more than ten minutes?

[downingracing]

Checking the cam requires it be removed and sent to Topeka to be checked on a cam doctor? Also requires providing a stock example to compare against. The stock example will be returned but the shipping and restocking fee are part of the fee. Also included are the costs associated with reinstalling the cam. That is how the bond price is decided. (Parts cost, shop labor rate and shipping)

[quadzjr]

so a stand, and run out gauge cannot be used to determine if it is illegal? even if it is not even close? obviously duration would not be able to be determined with putting a degree wheel on it, but that is not really what I am after. Well I guess I am after, but I was hoping for a simple check.

The know good example is what I have heard and what I have seen once, but I heard that since a competitor brought it, was not useable. Who in the heck is going to buy known good examples of car parts just to protest? Is the hope to sell it to the offender after the race?

[Greg Amy]

Checking cams used to be such a contentious process, because someone could easily change the camshaft profile and/or timing, without changing the lift, and it would be difficult to detect. It got to the point where all camshaft protests were required by the GCR to be sent to Topeka for inspection. I don't think we require that anymore; instead, I think those cam checking requirements were pulled and now the GCR notes that SCCA Technical Service "offers" such checks as a service.

If I were Chief of Tech and someone protested a camshaft for a basic lift check, that's something I can do with a v-block and a dial indicator. I do believe the GCR allows that now. But if someone wanted to check profile and/or timing, that's something I'd send to Topeka.

BTW, all Miata cam profiles are on file in Topeka, no "known good part" required.

Greg

[Knestis]

What Greg said. The typical cheater ITB cam will just be wrong - it won't be super-clever wrong. Particularly in a "everyone is doing it" culture. A 1.6 Rabbit I drove for a friend years ago would run in B with the BMW 2002s because it had a "268" cam. It idled fine. That same car ran in a sub-1500cc enduro class one year, minus the cam and plus a "1471cc" sticker on each side of the hood.

K

PS - http://www.techtonicstuning.com/cams.html

[callard]

Some years ago the IT-B BMW 2002 cheater cams had too much lift. After some trackside inspections and consequent DQs the new cheater cam had the proper lift but changes in lobe centers and duration. They are still in play. As are carbs with extra holes drilled in them.

[downingracing]

Those cam changes are found when checked on the cam doctor. If they are still in play - let some of the ITB racers who compete with the offending car know what to look for/file the protest on. Same goes for the carb modifications. From what I've seen (first hand), everyone knows who is cheating and what they are doing to cheat. But no one wants to be 'that guy' and write the paper.

This is my advice to everyone - Step up and be part of the solution. :)

[quadzjr]

Some years ago the IT-B BMW 2002 cheater cams had too much lift. After some trackside inspections and consequent DQs the new cheater cam had the proper lift but changes in lobe centers and duration. They are still in play. As are carbs with extra holes drilled in them.

Jebus, for a no pro racing series. People are going through this effort to win illegally. I guess people know how cumbersome the process works and know that rarely and very rarely they are going to be torn down. Yep it is all just for fun.. and everyone else is doing it... jeez.

There is advantages to more open rule sets.. but even then there is cheats you can perform. I am in the process of building a motor for another class and another car. Plenty of ways I could cheat, but I am not. I want to build the engine, release results and see what happens.

[callard]

Expensive protest for the cam. The 2002 head must be pulled to remove the cam and apply a Cam Doctor. And National did not have a known good cam for comparison last time we checked. Carb cheat discovery is cheap.

[downingracing]

Expensive protest for the cam. The 2002 head must be pulled to remove the cam and apply a Cam Doctor. And National did not have a known good cam for comparison last time we checked. Carb cheat discovery is cheap.

Only expensive if you are wrong... :)

[shwah]

One other thought on this issue. There are also a number of cases when people just "know" that someone else is cheating because there is no way they can be x seconds faster in the same car. The reality that we all learn as we continue to develop our driving, racecraft and car is that there is a lot of time to be gained by doing it right.

I can still remember my first race at Blackhawk farms. I was one of 4 or more VWs running in ITB. The winning car was an A2 Golf that set a track record. He was something like 3-4 seconds a lap faster than me, and I drove home wondering just how I could possibly get that fast with a legal car. A few years of consistent racing and car development down the road and I had that lap record about 1.5s lower. When I made my first visit to Mid-Ohio I learned a few weeks later that someone thought I was running an illegal motor that sounded like a 16v in ITB. I was not fastest in, and did not win a single session/race all weekend, but someone thought my legal car was a cheater car.

Not everyone that you know is cheating really is. That said, it does set the expectation that we all race legally if you have the conversation and are willing to write the paper to confirm the issue.

[gran racing]

Also requires providing a stock example to compare against.

In ITB where there are many old cars, how is this dealt with when it's not possible to purchase an OEM cam?

[Greg Amy]

In ITB where there are many old cars, how is this dealt with when it's not possible to purchase an OEM cam?
Zing!

Welcome to one of the main reasons why Improved Touring will never go Natio....errr, Majors.

- GA

[Andy Bettencourt]

In ITB where there are many old cars, how is this dealt with when it's not possible to purchase an OEM cam?

It may not be possible to purchase a 'new' OEM cam but I know if I was on a protest committee and I had 10 used cams in front of me that I sourced from all over the country and they all read within 'x' specs, and the protested cam was anomalous to those specs, I wouldn't have any issue booting it.

[JeffYoung]

Very true. I think it happens a couple years into racing. You think you are driving your ass off, and have developed your car to the max, but you haven't. So everyone in front of you has ot be cheating.

It's interesting to me but I think the prevalence of cheating decreases the further up the grid you go. At least in our run groups, we all know about what a "fast" ITS car should be capable of, and if something is out of whack it's either a real power to weight issue (say the unrestricted ITS E36s) or someone has something funny going on.

I'm pretty convinced that most of the fast ITS cars in the SEDiv if not all of them are legal. There may be some nits here and there but the big stuff? All legal.


One other thought on this issue. There are also a number of cases when people just "know" that someone else is cheating because there is no way they can be x seconds faster in the same car. The reality that we all learn as we continue to develop our driving, racecraft and car is that there is a lot of time to be gained by doing it right.

I can still remember my first race at Blackhawk farms. I was one of 4 or more VWs running in ITB. The winning car was an A2 Golf that set a track record. He was something like 3-4 seconds a lap faster than me, and I drove home wondering just how I could possibly get that fast with a legal car. A few years of consistent racing and car development down the road and I had that lap record about 1.5s lower. When I made my first visit to Mid-Ohio I learned a few weeks later that someone thought I was running an illegal motor that sounded like a 16v in ITB. I was not fastest in, and did not win a single session/race all weekend, but someone thought my legal car was a cheater car.

Not everyone that you know is cheating really is. That said, it does set the expectation that we all race legally if you have the conversation and are willing to write the paper to confirm the issue.

[Greg Amy]

It may not be possible to purchase a 'new' OEM cam but I know if I was on a protest committee and I had 10 used cams in front of me that I sourced from all over the country and they all read within 'x' specs, and the protested cam was anomalous to those specs, I wouldn't have any issue booting it.
Maybe. Probably not.

We had a situation at the Runoffs this year regarding a protest on a turbocharger. Competitior protested that the turbo was modified. Protestor could not obtain a new turbo to compare it against, because the turbo was no longer available as a new part. Protester contacted the original turbo supplier and had them ship, directly from them to SCCA at Road America, two warranty-returned turbos from that car for visual and dimensional comparison; those parts even had tags with the original VIN that they came from. SCCA Court of Appeals did not accept those as valid comparative parts.

Protestee won the appeal on those grounds, however it's likely that this turbo, which was an alternative allowance, will not be allowed in the future due to its inability to be satisfactorily scrutinized.

Bottom line: a reg that cannot be scrutineered is effectively not a reg. See definition of "tech shed legal".

- GA

[quadzjr]

Very true. I think it happens a couple years into racing. You think you are driving your ass off, and have developed your car to the max, but you haven't. So everyone in front of you has ot be cheating.

It's interesting to me but I think the prevalence of cheating decreases the further up the grid you go. At least in our run groups, we all know about what a "fast" ITS car should be capable of, and if something is out of whack it's either a real power to weight issue (say the unrestricted ITS E36s) or someone has something funny going on.

I'm pretty convinced that most of the fast ITS cars in the SEDiv if not all of them are legal. There may be some nits here and there but the big stuff? All legal.

I am not saying that anyone is illegal. Singling people out is what I would like to avoid. I think that if we can change the culture then people with less development will be more assured that drivers with more are doing so based on ability and setup rather than illegal bits and pieces.

I really really wish the did compliance checks at teh SIC like they do the ARRC. With moving the SIC to daytona this puts it in the backyard of the CFR so the people that do not make teh trip to GA should come. I wonder who would knowing they are going to get inspected?

If what Greg talking about is still the real process. It benefits you to run something obscure. I heard all sorts of grey area stories on a 190 mercedes and 325E BMWs.

So this should help. changing a culture and blanket cam and compression checks both non invasive, plus any visual checks maybe like a hood up car show so that everyone can see.

If something fails the check, and the offender pushes back saying prove it, then we will cross that bridge when we get there.

[jjjanos]

Step 1. Dyno the car before the teardown.
Step 2. Verify those parts and modifications which are verifiable.
Step 3. If vehicle contains parts deemed legal due to inability to verify that they are stock, the parts must be considered stock.
Step 4. We now have a valid dyno pull on a motor that we have established is legal. The only question is whether the engine is a 10/10ths build. Assume that it is not. If the dyno result has an HP below the process HP, the engine is not a 10/10ths build. Stop. If the dyno result is above the process HP, the car obviously makes more than process multiplier. We don't know how much, but we do know that your car is going to be carrying extra weight based on what your legal motor that isn't 10/10ths just demonstrated.
Step 5. Car owner - you now have a choice...
A. Turn state's evidence, turn over the illegal part(s), take your DQ and points and walk away without weight being thrown on your car. Publish the protest in Fasttrack noting that SCCA has retained the dimensions and specifications of these illegal parts and these parts are now ILLEGAL.
B. Stay mum. You get your finishing position, weight on your car and a gold star for demonstrating that your car makes more than the process gains. Publish the results in Fasttrack so that everyone else who drives that model car can thank you for being such a good citizen by having your legal motor put on a dyno.

You wanna cheat because it cannot be caught? Great. You're going to put on more weight than a college freshman.

[gran racing]

Step 1. Dyno the car before the teardown.

If someone else wants to dyno my car, they better bring the dyno to the track or be in the GCR as part of the protest process. Even if done locally, loading / unloading and everything in between consumes too much time and is a PITA.

Besides, the process is used to derive a close estimate. Now one car makes more power than estimated, the illegal items were not caught, the weight for that car gets adjusted and all other owners of said vehicle get a penalty?

The process isn't perfect. Dyno numbers certainly are not either.

[jjjanos]

If someone else wants to dyno my car, they better bring the dyno to the track or be in the GCR as part of the protest process. Even if done locally, loading / unloading and everything in between consumes too much time and is a PITA.

Well it can't happen unless it is part of the GCR, but that being said, nothing in the GCR requires that the tear down take place at the track or even that weekend. (I seem to recall a mechanical protest at Pocono where the protested drivers wanted to tear down down the next weekend after the WGI double?).


Besides, the process is used to derive a close estimate. Now one car makes more power than estimated, the illegal items were not caught, the weight for that car gets adjusted and all other owners of said vehicle get a penalty? If one car makes more than process, they all can. If you can verify the legality of the head, the crank, the valves, etc. and the cam cannot be verified because SCCA's requires a "verified" stock cam and there are no such beasts, then the cam in the protested car is legal. There are no illegal parts that weren't discovered.

We've only got a couple of choices:
1. Put the weight on the legal car that exceeds the process gains
2. Allow everyone who drives that car to cheat with that part
3. Toss the car out of IT as a car whose legality cannot be verified

The important part is allowing the cheater with the tech-shed legal engine have a choice. You've got a possibly illegal motor but the stock parts to prove don't exist. Either your motor is legal and it makes more than the process weight (in which case your car needs the weight) or it is unprovable-illegal and you are going to show us the illegal part - your choice.

If it were me and I knew what was illegal, I'd take the DQ and hand over the part. More weight just means more consumables.

[pfcs]

what a concept

[Flyinglizard]

My son and I have run the oval track for maybe 80 races. He won around 10 or more features. To collect your money you have to run thru tech. tech may include a vacuum check For excessive cam/
The oval tracks are aware of the cam tech issues and simply state a min vac rule. Our was 17in. I ran an optional alternator with a field switch along with an electric fan.
Post checker, on the way into tech,the alt was fielded and the fan lit. This draws the alt load and idle down,passing tech. I ran a lot of cam, 276/288 on 112LC.
If the battery was low I could get a pretty nice idle.

Contrast that to the Mk1 VW and 026# cam. the Fuel injection was lean high end and Ineeded to run the base mixture really fat. The cam was timed @ plus3. it idles poorly at best. pure legal tho.

For IT racing , hold a driver meeting, state that you will have to pull the VC to collect points and trophy.

First, The cams must have the right part numbers. They should be in the factory SM.
next, you can measure max lift on most OHC engines with veniers, the FSM should also have the min cam lift allowed, may not.
For reground cams you will need the OE cam for comparision. Again the change is visual over the stocker.

If it gets so that the cam has the right part numbers and lift but may be a regrind. You can check for larger lift windows by CCing the entire cam(plunk in into a tube of fluid, measure level rise etc). You still need the OE cam for comparision.

Remember that cam opening timing is stillnot regulated and really cant be without allowing adjustable cam wheels.IMHO

[Z3_GoCar]

Maybe. Probably not.

We had a situation at the Runoffs this year regarding a protest on a turbocharger. Competitior protested that the turbo was modified. Protestor could not obtain a new turbo to compare it against, because the turbo was no longer available as a new part. Protester contacted the original turbo supplier and had them ship, directly from them to SCCA at Road America, two warranty-returned turbos from that car for visual and dimensional comparison; those parts even had tags with the original VIN that they came from. SCCA Court of Appeals did not accept those as valid comparative parts.

Protestee won the appeal on those grounds, however it's likely that this turbo, which was an alternative allowance, will not be allowed in the future due to its inability to be satisfactorily scrutinized.

Bottom line: a reg that cannot be scrutineered is effectively not a reg. See definition of "tech shed legal".

- GA

So, they were bounced for an illegal TIR? I'd not heard this part of the story yet. The alternate turbo will be pulled. Replaced with a new spec alternate turbo or have to go back to the original turbo?

[Greg Amy]

So, they were bounced for an illegal TIR?
Eventually that car was, but the TIR issue was not related to this specific turbo compliance issue.


Replaced with a new spec alternate turbo or have to go back to the original turbo?
Next Fastrack will have the final answer on that one.

- GA

[Z3_GoCar]

Eventually that car was, but the TIR issue was not related to this specific turbo compliance issue.


Next Fastrack will have the final answer on that one.

- GA

Ah, so the car bounced for it's TIR mounting wasn't this one, even though it's turbo wasn't the correct altnernate turbo. Thanks Greg.

James

[Greg Amy]

No, it was the same car, but the two issues - incorrect TIR and "not-scrutineer-able" turbo - were coincidental, unrelated.

As far as we know it was the correct alternate turbo, given we had no way to confirm its authenticity. But because we cannot confirm its authenticity, I understand the CRB will remove it as an allowable alternative turbo.

Capiche?

Fastrack will have the final word.

- GA

[Ron Earp]

GA said:


We had a situation at the Runoffs this year regarding a protest on a turbocharger. Competitior protested that the turbo was modified. Protestor could not obtain a new turbo to compare it against, because the turbo was no longer available as a new part. Protester contacted the original turbo supplier and had them ship, directly from them to SCCA at Road America, two warranty-returned turbos from that car for visual and dimensional comparison; those parts even had tags with the original VIN that they came from. SCCA Court of Appeals did not accept those as valid comparative parts.

The SCCA would not accept those turbos as OEM new? If not, then the SCCA has set the bar so high for acceptable OEM parts that the protest system cannot work. Most of the cars we race do so with NLA parts. If we have no parts that are acceptable as stock for a protest situation then we can't prove someone is using illegal parts. Not good.

[Greg Amy]

The SCCA would not accept those turbos as OEM new?
They were not OEM new parts.

As I understand the situation -- and please note, I was not officially involved in this protest in any way, everything I have is second-hand, and public info AFAIK... -- the car in question was a Mazdaspeed Miata M2 turbo engine, installed in an M1 chassis. This engine was a Mazda USA design, where Mazda USA installed turbocharger systems on the cars at the Cali port after arrival from Japan prior to shipped to dealers. This turbo system was sourced from Callaway. Same thing happened from the Mazdaspeed Protege 5 turbo: it was a port-installed turbo system, sourced from Callaway.

Couple years or so ago, the CRB approved for STU the installation of the turbo from the Mazdaspeed Protege 5 onto the Mazdaspeed Miata. The car in question at the Runoffs was using the Protege turbo.

Car in question was protested at the Runoffs for turbo modifications; protester contacted Mazda directly to have them ship an OEM new turbo to Road America. Protester was told by Mazda that the turbo was no longer available new, but that Callaway was the oe manufacturer. Protester contacted Callaway directly and asked for one of those turbos new, as installed onto the Mazdaspeed Protege 5; protester was told that the turbo was NLA new, but they had two warranty returns from Mazda.

Warranty return parts are used parts that Callaway accepted/requested back from Mazda after Mazda replaced them on street cars under their warranty (Mazda does not keep used/warranty parts, especially if they are not the source for them). These parts were replaced by the dealer, sent back to Mazda, and Mazda sent them back to the supplier, Callaway. These are the used parts - shipped from Callaway, not Mazda - that were presented to SCCA as comparable inspection items, that were subsequently declined by SCCA as acceptable comparative parts.

My personal opinion: this was the correct move. These were used parts, and there's no way to know what failed on them or why, or what may have been changed in the process of port installation, driving, dealer replacement, sitting on dealer warranty shelf, back to Mazda, and back to Callaway, so forth.

Had they been brandy-new replacement parts from Mazda? Great, they're acceptable. And I compliment the protester's resourcefulness in attempting to find a suitable comparative part. But in this case the whole "chain of custody" thing is lost and there's really no way to know for absolute certainty the validity against which they would be comparing the competitor's installed part.

Capiche?

And in Improved Touring, given we have cars as old as half a century competing, it *is* a very high standard against which to assure compliance with the regulations. But is the community willing to take a stand and start de-listing cars that are older than a reasonably-accessible age? I suggest not. Alternatively, is the community willing to accept generic-dimension alternate parts allowance for items that are basically un-scrutineer-able (such as allowing XX size valve lifts and YY size throttle bodies and open rods, cranks, etc)? Again, I suggest not.

So, you're in a bit of a pickle with no way out of the barrel.

- GA

[quadzjr]

hmm.. I sure hope it does not come to that, though I know it could easily be done if the person wants to go that route.

So if anybody knows anybody in the CFR or other regions going to the turkey trot, more specifically ITB, to let them know that we are trying to change for the better. You can give my contact info as well.

[jjjanos]

And in Improved Touring, given we have cars as old as half a century competing, it *is* a very high standard against which to assure compliance with the regulations. But is the community willing to take a stand and start de-listing cars that are older than a reasonably-accessible age? I suggest not. Alternatively, is the community willing to accept generic-dimension alternate parts allowance for items that are basically un-scrutineer-able (such as allowing XX size valve lifts and YY size throttle bodies and open rods, cranks, etc)? Again, I suggest not.

So, you're in a bit of a pickle with no way out of the barrel.

- GA

I believe I gave a map for the way out, people just didn't want to crawl through the dirty hole.

[Greg Amy]

I believe I gave a map for the way out, people just didn't want to crawl through the dirty hole.
It's a clever idea, I like it. But, as was inelegantly responded afterward, it's not realistic. SCCA just doesn't have those resources, either technically or manpower.

So the beat goes on.

- GA

[jumbojimbo]

It's a clever idea, I like it. But, as was inelegantly responded afterward, it's not realistic. SCCA just doesn't have those resources, either technically or manpower.

So the beat goes on.

- GA

Hey, just because it's not possible doesn't mean we shouldn't do it. Oh wait, I thought I was at work for a moment there.

[Knestis]

GA said:
We had a situation at the Runoffs this year regarding a protest on a turbocharger. Competitior protested that the turbo was modified. Protestor could not obtain a new turbo to compare it against, because the turbo was no longer available as a new part. Protester contacted the original turbo supplier and had them ship, directly from them to SCCA at Road America, two warranty-returned turbos from that car for visual and dimensional comparison; those parts even had tags with the original VIN that they came from. SCCA Court of Appeals did not accept those as valid comparative parts.The SCCA would not accept those turbos as OEM new? If not, then the SCCA has set the bar so high for acceptable OEM parts that the protest system cannot work. Most of the cars we race do so with NLA parts. If we have no parts that are acceptable as stock for a protest situation then we can't prove someone is using illegal parts. Not good.

Somewhere along the line - about the point when stewards evolved to not have vertebrae, I think - the evidential standard for a finding of "out of compliance" went from "beyond a reasonable doubt" to "absofarkinglutely positive." Afraid to piss anyone off, the officials let the paddock lawyers (not you, Jeff) prevail.

Go to any local yokel stock car track and there will be a guy who makes judgment calls. "Nope. Clever but not legal. Go fix it." John Bishop was legendary in IMSA for doing the same thing. NASCAR Cup does it...

We, on the other hand, have created a situation where even the tiniest sliver of doubt is enough to result in acquittal - or dropped charges. "HAH, HAH! You can't PROOOOVE that it's not right so it IS RIGHT!!!" (See also, "tech shed legal.) If we could collectively shift our expectations to something more reasonable, we wouldn't have so much cheating.

But then, looking at evidence, we are a culture that frankly likes to cheat.

K

[jjjanos]

It's a clever idea, I like it. But, as was inelegantly responded afterward, it's not realistic. SCCA just doesn't have those resources, either technically or manpower.

So the beat goes on.

- GA

I think you overstate the resource requirements.
Engines don't need to be torn-down at the track. (The two mechanicals I've seen for internals involved towing the protested car to a shop to be torn down in an environment that allowed the engine to be put together for the next day's race)
Dynos aren't that far from most tracks and if the dyno pull gives you an engine below what the process says, why bother with the rest of the protest? The guy might be cheating, but he's not even getting as much as he could from a legal motor.

[quadzjr]

I think you overstate the resource requirements.
Engines don't need to be torn-down at the track. (The two mechanicals I've seen for internals involved towing the protested car to a shop to be torn down in an environment that allowed the engine to be put together for the next day's race)
Dynos aren't that far from most tracks and if the dyno pull gives you an engine below what the process says, why bother with the rest of the protest? The guy might be cheating, but he's not even getting as much as he could from a legal motor.

So for the cars that are under process power.. even with 10/10ths builds.. do we get to cheat to get up to process power?

[Knestis]

Ironically, that kind of approach is behind much of the broo-hah-hah currently being dealt with in ITB, derived largely out of pockets of full fields in the mid-Atlantic and NE.

Some guys cheated, other guys cheated just enough to compete with the cheaters, and a kind of cheaty detente was achieved. As long as nobody went TOO fast, everyone was fine with it. They were all more or less illegal, but some came with relative deficiencies that were made up by marginally bigger cheats. The (not so) Great Realignment codified that status quo around the most popular options (read, "competitive," the "Bogey cars") as cars were assigned weights that locked them into competitive parity - based on cheated-up power.

Whoops.

Along comes the Process and we discover that it creates impossible tangles to try to rectify those baked-in mistakes. The ITAC tries. Panic ensues. The Craptastic Compromise Cha Cha continues for several more years...

K

[Greg Amy]

I think you overstate the resource requirements.
Sooo....pioneer doing this on a local level, prove that it works, and propose it to happen on a national level.

Or is this another one of those "well, *I* don't want to do it, *I'm* the one with the idea. I want *someone else* to do it."

Last several years, every time I complain about something, someone has been smart enough to hand me a volunteer form to fill out for a new license.that's how I became a National scrutineer, and that's how I became a steward (Regional, as of this year).

Here's your form. Make it happen. You have my support.

- GA

[Flyinglizard]

Prod does just that, Max camlift, max throttle body. I can use shifter bushings that wont melt,4130 Axle bits, big hubs etc. I can remove stuff that is too valuable to hit stuff with.

For IT, and SCCA in general, we need to be very gentle in our approach.
I would start with. "Please bring supporting paper work showing the cam, gearset, and cranking compression for your car. We are trying to gather information for these cars to help level the field. If other racers show the same data, than we will have updated information. This data should be shown in the FSM. "
Pro style Build sheets should be encouraged. Signed by the owner.

Somebody needs to record the data in a book that is at the track. Match the car to the data /driver/ lap times. Take charge.
NASA has a class guy that covers this kind of stuff. At the race.
** One guy in charge of each class. Not 5 volunteer tech guys/girls/ for all of the classes.**
non vested/non participant . He may race another class. He/ she must be totally committed to the best interest of the class . (not his own best interest)

That is one real issue I have with the current boards. Racers cant run their own class. Fox/hen etc.

Maybe allowing a spec cam lift is not a bad idea. Maybe it is the only way to live in a non perfect world. At least all of the cam s would be the same. And tech able . For the VW the 268 helps the Mk 2 run with the Mk 3s .


The most fun ever in the IT cars;
I ran a few Races for the VW Cup with NASA and also ran inside of track days. My rules allowed the 268 cam, 10/1 pistons,large TB for all of the cars,Mk1 Mk2, stock for Mk 3. They just had to meet the weight. (the rules matched what I had seen in the "IT" cars) WE had 4 cars and we added 25# per win. Inverted the grid each session and had a blast. Used points for overall winner but after 4 sessions, nobody cared as we were 3 wide most of the time. 3/4 pt = 1st. 2pt 2nd, etc.
These rules along with 180DOT tires could be a goodthing. Spec the cheater parts . On a local scale .

This may come back as Iam getting another deal going in the next few months.

[jjjanos]

So for the cars that are under process power.. even with 10/10ths builds.. do we get to cheat to get up to process power?

If your internals cannot be verified as verifiable stock parts, might as well. You are tech shed legal.

[jjjanos]

Sooo....pioneer doing this on a local level, prove that it works, and propose it to happen on a national level.

It cannot work on the regional level. Region takes your engine down entirely. All the parts are deemed legal or cannot be verified. You blow 175 HP for an ITC car. You tell them the cam is not stock. They DQ you. You appeal to the CoA. They look at the evidence. You tell them you were mistaken. You win.

Or, you keep your mouth shut. The Region cannot throw weight on your car -- your car is classified by national at a certain weight for a certain class.


Or is this another one of those "well, *I* don't want to do it, *I'm* the one with the idea. I want *someone else* to do it."

They need someone on a weeknight to watch a teardown who knows nothing about being in tech, I'll give up a night, but not if it all gets tossed by the CoA.

[manny]

I have to agree with Flyinglizard because it would be so much easier to tech. Give a max spec cam lift, throtle body/carb size, max compression and all on the 180 DOT rubber. I'll bet we see alot of closer racing. Kind of levels out the field and puts it back in the drivers hands. Just my $.02. Turkey trot here we come :023:

[gran racing]

I have to agree with Flyinglizard because it would be so much easier to tech. Give a max spec cam lift, throtle body/carb size, max compression and all on the 180 DOT rubber.

And how exactly does this impact the many, many cars that are classified? So now the cars can be teched easily, but the paridody we've been after is blown.

[Ron Earp]

And how exactly does this impact the many, many cars that are classified? So now the cars can be teched easily, but the paridody we've been after is blown.

You'd need to start over with classing. It's been discussed on the board before, but you could make a really nice class using the following input parameters:

Displacement
Valve area

While keeping valve lift and compression set to a class standard. Everything else is free to modify, carbs can change to EFI as they like, build your intake, t-body, etc. The rules are all about airflow in the motor and how much displacement you have.

The advantage of this system is that it would assume all competitors will maximize their engine and therefore, with the assigned weight being based on displacement and valve area, the cars will simply increase in weight as the horsepower increases. A specific formula using displacement and valve area would have to be developed but I think there is a good solution to the problem.

No sense in discussing it though because something like this will never happen.

[Greg Amy]

I only suggested the above (standard cams and throttle body) as a "reductio ad absurdum". Doing something like that would be a wholesale complete re-vamp of the core Improved Touring philosophy, and would likely have a less possibility than a snowball's chance in Hell. If someone can legitimately convince the Club that such a wholesale change in IT philosophy is warranted due to existing regulatory shortcomings and the high risk of rampant cheating, I suggest the Club would not waste any time on it and would instead cancel the category entirely and mold it into existing categories.

Just my 2 cents, of course.

Better the devil you know.

- GA

P.S.: Seriously, we're still beating that dead "street tires" horse? Really? Let gooooo, Luke....

[Ron Earp]

Seriously, we're still beating that dead "street tires" horse? Really? Let gooooo, Luke....

Second that. Not gonna happen. Like Street Tires, race in CrapCan.

[quadzjr]

I have to agree with Flyinglizard because it would be so much easier to tech. Give a max spec cam lift, throtle body/carb size, max compression and all on the 180 DOT rubber. I'll bet we see alot of closer racing. Kind of levels out the field and puts it back in the drivers hands. Just my $.02. Turkey trot here we come :023:

Almost sounds like what he is proposing is STL.. set compression ratio and cam limits.. sounds familiar.

[Knestis]

I feel bad saying it but, given the personal goals and priorities reflected in some of the questions and comments here, IT may not be the droid you're looking for.

There are reasons that Prep 2 Prod is swiping some of the more serious ex-IT folks.

Equally, there's a reason that they are piloting LeCrapChumMonsCar-based rules for SCCA regional sprint races in New Jersey. Ditto the Florida street tire initiative...

...which should serve as a reminder that your region can do any danged thing you want. That's how IT came to be.

It's kind of GOOD for individuals that we have more options - and more accessible options - available now than has ever been the case. Whether it's good for the Club is debatable but there are choices.

K

[quadzjr]

I know.. lots of fun options out there. I enjoy racing in IT, I just want to reduce the cheating. Cheating makes it no fun. If my effot goes no where or I see that people do not want to be legal, or if I start getting protested in spite. Then I will move on. I am willing to work to make strides to change the culture of the good ole boy operation in CFR. If it bites me in the a$$ in doing so.. well just gives me a good reason to go somewhere else.

[AE86ITA]

Isn't there an instrument that looks like a lab in a suit case that connects to the spark plug hole and once the engine is rotated it calculates both displacement and compression ratio, all without having to open the engine.

Thanks,

I have seen in the past the use of this instrument and it is very accurate without any intrusion to the engine just remove a spark plug, screw this in it's place and turn the engine by hand.

It reads displacement and compression ratio and most racers will think twice about cheating on engine internals which is the inspection that take the most time and resources.

[D. Ellis-Brown]

We in Florida, CFR & Florida Region, Have some of the best prepared IT cars, and some of the best IT drivers in the nation, (Deuce Keane, Paul Ronie, Mike Van Steenburg, Jeff Cripe, Mike Flynn, Chi Ho, Norm Fuller, too many to list) Our Tech inspectors are some of the most qualified, The scales are always available as advertised in the Supps. For CFR, IT has one of the bread and butter grouping for our region for many years. I'm quite sure that will continue. If you can do well here, you should be able to do well anywhere. Right now, there some 10 ITB cars entered for next weekend at Sebring. I am proud of being part of the ITB community in CFR.

David Ellis-Brown

[Knestis]

Are you running stock fuel injectors, David? I'm asking in complete seriousness, since the recommendation you made to me when we were building our MkIII Golf was to do otherwise.

K

[lateapex911]

We in Florida, CFR & Florida Region, Have some of the best prepared IT cars, and some of the best IT drivers in the nation, (Deuce Keane, Paul Ronie, Mike Van Steenburg, Jeff Cripe, Mike Flynn, Chi Ho, Norm Fuller, too many to list) Our Tech inspectors are some of the most qualified, The scales are always available as advertised in the Supps. For CFR, IT has one of the bread and butter grouping for our region for many years. I'm quite sure that will continue. If you can do well here, you should be able to do well anywhere. Right now, there some 10 ITB cars entered for next weekend at Sebring. I am proud of being part of the ITB community in CFR.

David Ellis-Brown

We've seen Kip Van Steenburg, Flynn, and the Keanes at the ARRC, but I'm unaware of the others attending, and I've always found that unfortunate, considering the distance.

[Chip42]

We've seen Kip Van Steenburg, Flynn, and the Keanes at the ARRC, but I'm unaware of the others attending, and I've always found that unfortunate, considering the distance.

Flynn (AKA Irish Mike) has shown his stripes at the ARRC and many a runoffs and SICs, probably a SARRC championship in there, Chi Ho drives the protege that goes to the ARRC every year (was there this year but popped the motor on friday so went home).

Mike Van Steenburg has to be given due credit for all he's done in the past for IT and other classes. He ran the COTA and RdAtl Majors this year, too.

Ronie and Steve Ulbrik are SIC winners and Steve in particular travels all over the south east, though hasn't done the ARRC.

I could add other names to David's list: Scott Seck (ARRC traveler and well respected ITS driver), Dave Raymon (2x SARRC champ), and a TON of Majors level guys like Jay Griffin, Peter Shadowen, and that guy in the blue and silver SRF that wins everything.

the real question is "why incur the expense of leaving FL to drive against a smaller field?" CFR DOES have great, deep fields, and great drivers but we also have a (I think largely overblown) reputation for cheating. why doesn't anyone get on the MARRS group for not traveling to the ARRC in droves? for many of them it's a similar distance as for many florida racers - but they also have a good local grouping of cars that's closer and thus cheaper to run with.

[JeffYoung]

Flynn (AKA Irish Mike) has shown his stripes at the ARRC and many a runoffs and SICs, probably a SARRC championship in there, Chi Ho drives the protege that goes to the ARRC every year (was there this year but popped the motor on friday so went home).

Mike Van Steenburg has to be given due credit for all he's done in the past for IT and other classes. He ran the COTA and RdAtl Majors this year, too.

Ronie and Steve Ulbrik are SIC winners and Steve in particular travels all over the south east, though hasn't done the ARRC.

I could add other names to David's list: Scott Seck (ARRC traveler and well respected ITS driver), Dave Raymon (2x SARRC champ), and a TON of Majors level guys like Jay Griffin, Peter Shadowen, and that guy in the blue and silver SRF that wins everything.

the real question is "why incur the expense of leaving FL to drive against a smaller field?" CFR DOES have great, deep fields, and great drivers but we also have a (I think largely overblown) reputation for cheating. why doesn't anyone get on the MARRS group for not traveling to the ARRC in droves? for many of them it's a similar distance as for many florida racers - but they also have a good local grouping of cars that's closer and thus cheaper to run with.

I think the problem is just the obviousness of some of it that is clearly tolerated or ignored. Having been to Daytona all of twice, it's not fair of me to make any generalizations, but both times my perception was:

1. The cars running up front in the classes I care about/race in or with (ITR, S and A) were legal;

2. But some of the mid packers had some pretty obvious cheats that folks didn't seem to mind: lexan windows with holes, missing windshield wipers and shaved door handles for aero, a carbon fiber trunk decklid, a guy claiming to run a mid 2000s 911 in ITR, and so on.

I get why fixing the obvious stuff isn't really a priority since they do not appear to be front running cars, but at hte same time the obviuos gives that appearance that things aren't quite right down thataway, when in fact they mostly are (especiall at the front of the field).

[quadzjr]

Dave, I am also a CFR driver. I have run every event (barring mechanical failure - I was not driving the weekend the big wreck in turn 1) at long course Sebring event in the last few years.. Heck we have even had good races in the past where prior Duece, yourself, and myself goof around and talked after qualifying as we were qualified 1,2,3 and I was asking you how you liked the V710s.

As a CFR driver, it took a JDM motor swap in his CRX for me to do something. Members of the CFR group told me that I should not do anything as he is a good guy. It was very stressful. The sad thing is that car was leading the points in the region that year.. no one protested. Does no one care?

People are afraid of the protest process, with arguably good reason. I enjoy racing everyone you mentioned. I have worked with on or raced within inches of each person you listed.

To put this idea to that FLA and CFR is cheating, which I am a member of, to rest I think it would be good to do something. When I do travel the Southeast I hear about cars "down there". It would be nice to do something about it, put the issue to bed and make CFR the shining example of a fun and fair place to race. Do you think of what I am proposing a bad idea?

[Knestis]

... Members of the CFR group told me that I should not do anything as he is a good guy.Here's your problem.

It's a cultural norm established by the group. My conversations with David made it pretty clear to me that there was - and I would presume still is - a much more liberal interpretation prevails, that operationalizes everyday applications of the IT ruleset. It struck me then that it was (is) very much like what we applied in the Northwest in the '80s - that the rulebook was more a set of guidelines.

Hell, I "won" an ITC championship in a car that wasn't even listed in the ITCS because it was too new...

That played there then, and seems to play now in FL, like the unwritten rule that David explained to me, wherein anything that "isn't required for a race car" (e.g., hatch support struts) can be removed for weight. That simply is not in the written rules but the culture has chosen de facto to allow it.

K

EDIT - There's an additional dimension to this, as well - kind of the "broken windows" dynamic. A culture that allows easy obvious cheats enables individuals to push just a little further with their personal applications of the philosophy. If I hear from everyone that it's OK to take the hatch struts out of my car absent any allowance to do so, it's probably OK for me to mix and match the readily available alternate VW gear ratios floating around out there.

[gran racing]

why doesn't anyone get on the MARRS group for not traveling to the ARRC in droves?

Very stong fields, in general much more so than the ARRC. Heck, ITB Labor Day had a 30 plus ITB field. I'd MUCH rather attend that enent in an ITB car than get an automatic second at the ARRC and spend more money doing so. Maybe that's the case with FL cars but when the ARRC was very well attended for IT cars, we saw many people travel great distances as it was much more of the IT championship, it was odd more FL cars didn't attend.

I've often heard of the FL gentleman's agreement. True or not, some of the cars I've seen with obvious items... Gesh, and some of the IT-7 cars. LOL

[Ron Earp]

So, reading between the lines here what some of your are suggesting is that those that don't attend the ARRC are, or more likely to be, cheaters? Really?

Where I'm from the reasons for not attending to ARRC have nothing to do with tech and everything to do with light fields, little competition, a diluted spread out event requiring two days off work, and the ARRC being immediately following three race weekends (SIC, Goblin's Go, VIR 13hr).

I've been to Daytona and witnessed the cars that Jeff mentioned - lots of little minor details with some FL cars that were non-compliant for IT. But the cars that were winning the races and running up front seemed to be legal to me. The folks that had non-compliant IT mods were new, not competitive, and seemed to just basically want to be out on track. That you guys don't pull them aside and get it corrected is another matter, but the front runners had none of these issues.

[gran racing]

Ron, I think in the past there have been some eyebrows raised when really fast cars close to RA, who race at RA, skipped the ARRC. Fields were really strong, and there were solid compliance checks. Since at the majority of events there are little checks and balances on cars, cars that attended the ARRC had more crediblity. Of course there are many reasons why people didn't attend, but some were suspect.

[Chip42]

Very stong fields, in general much more so than the ARRC. Heck, ITB Labor Day had a 30 plus ITB field. I'd MUCH rather attend that enent in an ITB car than get an automatic second at the ARRC and spend more money doing so.

And this was all I was saying about NOW. I don't know why fast cars didn't run the ARRC, but as Ron has said countless times, a SARRC jacket is worth a lot more to us in the south than an ARRC win. that's even more true now that the ARRC fields are so weak.

[spawpoet]

I think the problem is just the obviousness of some of it that is clearly tolerated or ignored. Having been to Daytona all of twice, it's not fair of me to make any generalizations, but both times my perception was:

1. The cars running up front in the classes I care about/race in or with (ITR, S and A) were legal;

2. But some of the mid packers had some pretty obvious cheats that folks didn't seem to mind: lexan windows with holes, missing windshield wipers and shaved door handles for aero, a carbon fiber trunk decklid, a guy claiming to run a mid 2000s 911 in ITR, and so on.

I get why fixing the obvious stuff isn't really a priority since they do not appear to be front running cars, but at hte same time the obviuos gives that appearance that things aren't quite right down thataway, when in fact they mostly are (especiall at the front of the field).


The guy in the Porsche with the lexan ran maybe 6-7 race weekends over two years down here, and has since moved on precisely because he didn't fit. He got a lot of attention on the forum here as being representative of the culture of Florida IT racing when he really wasn't one of us. He just didn't understand what IT was all about. One of those guys who builds a car the way he wants and only then tried to find a place to race it. He was actually a nice guy, just naive.

[spawpoet]

Dave, I am also a CFR driver. I have run every event (barring mechanical failure - I was not driving the weekend the big wreck in turn 1) at long course Sebring event in the last few years.. Heck we have even had good races in the past where prior Duece, yourself, and myself goof around and talked after qualifying as we were qualified 1,2,3 and I was asking you how you liked the V710s.

As a CFR driver, it took a JDM motor swap in his CRX for me to do something. Members of the CFR group told me that I should not do anything as he is a good guy. It was very stressful. The sad thing is that car was leading the points in the region that year.. no one protested. Does no one care?

People are afraid of the protest process, with arguably good reason. I enjoy racing everyone you mentioned. I have worked with on or raced within inches of each person you listed.


To put this idea to that FLA and CFR is cheating, which I am a member of, to rest I think it would be good to do something. When I do travel the Southeast I hear about cars "down there". It would be nice to do something about it, put the issue to bed and make CFR the shining example of a fun and fair place to race. Do you think of what I am proposing a bad idea?


I find it a little disturbing that our stewards tried to talk you out of protesting a guy who had an engine swap in an IT car. Kind of sad. If CFR isn't regularly weighing the top finishers at most events (as was mentioned further up in the thread) that's a problem too. It's one thing for trivial things to be ignored, but a JDM swap?


IMHO the two things that can easily be done down here to change competitors behavior is 1- the region(s) itself needs to change and create a culture that encourages compliance. That means scaling the top finishers after every race. Ask people to open their hoods at impound. It doesn't have to be invasive or expensive to at least encourage people to be compliant. At least we can TRY to emphasize that it's an issue, but I think the region itself needs to step up here. I know we are supposed to self police, but they could help in building the culture. 2- Appeal to peoples conscience. Yeah, the real assholes will run this red light 8 days a week, but it's basically free. Draft a handout for the IT competitors that points out common cheats, and ask people to change. It can't hurt. And in some cases you are educating people that really don't know the rule set well. Especially with all the racers we have that come over from NASA or FARA for a few races. Anyway, we will be at the Turkey Trot, so feel free to stop by if you want any other support with this.

[D. Ellis-Brown]

Dr. Knestis, No, we are running box stock VW ABA injectors..... As I told you back in 2006-2007..... Our rationale for trying a different injector, was the verbage in the ITCS, section D.1.a .... you disagreed with our "liberal" interpretation... I accepted your reasoning..... We submitted a rules change request to the IT committee, following the same rationale and logic that permitted carbureted cars to change jets, needles and metering rods within the stock carburetor(s)..... Then we should be able to change injectors. Our request was not approved. I accepted that. Thru extensive dyno time, and going to a different engine management computer we have been able to overcome the AFR issues. Now to Mr. Babson's comment, about my driving ability, well I'll let my peers judge my driving ability. I don't recall any of them running into the back of me. Enough said. As far as why I don't go the ARRC. I sent my entry in one year. I then realized we would be spending about $3000.00. for the week in Atlanta. That was about 1/3 of my race budget. My sponsors are all within Central Florida, they would see no benefit. Due to the expense, and having nothing to gain or prove, I cancelled our entry. I can race against Deuce Keane, Chi Ho and other excellent drivers in CFR for a lot less. I'm very proud to be racing in CFR, and against some of the finest ITB cars in the country.

Respectfully, David Ellis-Brown

[jjjanos]

Now to Mr. Babson's comment, about my driving ability, well I'll let my peers judge my driving ability. I don't recall any of them running into the back of me.

Wouldn't that be an indication of the driving ability of your peers? :D

[Knestis]

Dr. Knestis, No, we are running box stock VW ABA injectors..... As I told you back in 2006-2007..... Our rationale for trying a different injector, was the verbage in the ITCS, section D.1.a .... you disagreed with our "liberal" interpretation... I accepted your reasoning..... We submitted a rules change request to the IT committee, following the same rationale and logic that permitted carbureted cars to change jets, needles and metering rods within the stock carburetor(s)..... Then we should be able to change injectors. Our request was not approved. I accepted that. Thru extensive dyno time, and going to a different engine management computer we have been able to overcome the AFR issues ...

Thanks, David, for the reassurance.

K

[quadzjr]

Dave you going to the trots? I would like to pick your brain on how we can shake this legality dark cloud over cfr/fla.

[Chip42]

FWIW, entry numbers for the Turkey Trot at Sebring Thanksgiving weekend:

Group 1 SM, SM5 56
Group 2/3 FA, FC, FF, FM, S2, CSR, DSR, FV, F500, CF, FS, FB, FE, FST, F600 24
Group 4 ITC, EP, FP, HP, GTL, STL, T4 56
Group 5 T3, SRF, LEG, SPU, STU, B-Spec 35
Group 6 ITB, ITS, ITA, IT7, ITR, IT7R 58
Group 7 GT1, GT2, GT3, AS, T1, T2, GTA, SPO, ASR, ITO, STO 21

The IT breakdown is
R = 9 (2 toyotas, 7 BMWs)
S = 17 (3 aren't MAzdas)
A = 17 (mostly miatae)
B = 14 (2 'rolas, 2 mustangs, 2 MR2s, 2 accords, 3 A3s, 3 A2s)
C = 1 (Miki's A1)

[Ron Earp]

B has some diversity. It reads like your S class is Spec 2nd Gen RX7.

[spawpoet]

B has some diversity. It reads like your S class is Spec 2nd Gen RX7.


Thanksgiving weekend will be a bloodbath for the mosquitoes at Sebring. Hell, we're smoking too.

[Chip42]

there's plenty of Miata in that list, too.

[Ron Earp]

there's plenty of Miata in that list, too.

And people refer to the SCCA as the Mazda Car Club. Boy they sure are wrong.

[Chip42]

Ron, the point of my posting the entries is to highlight the fields we get in CFR as the incentive to not travel. Parricularly in B, where I play, the depth is good. But there are strong cars and good numbers in all IT classes here (not C). Yeah, I'm mid pack, but up in the SARRC I'm dead last of 2 maybe 3 cars. The only reason I travel north is to work and occasionally drive other tracks, when my cars not getting repaired that is.

[D. Ellis-Brown]

Steve, No we are not going to the TT, mainly family, #1.... Yes we can talk, willing to listen, I really don't see a dark cloud over CFR or Florida. Issues with legality are no more severe here than any racing region with the huge fields of cars that we have. Are there some issues that need to be worked, Yes, I am not naïve, but is this something that is unique to our regions? I am willing to hear what you are so concerned about. And maybe collectively, with all concerned, decide if something can should be done. As a long time IT competitor, please do not hesitate to get in touch with me. Both Louis Boustani and David Boles will be at the TT, They will know how to get in touch me directly.

Respectfully, David Ellis-Brown

[quadzjr]

Steve, No we are not going to the TT, mainly family, #1.... Yes we can talk, willing to listen, I really don't see a dark cloud over CFR or Florida. Issues with legality are no more severe here than any racing region with the huge fields of cars that we have. Are there some issues that need to be worked, Yes, I am not naïve, but is this something that is unique to our regions? I am willing to hear what you are so concerned about. And maybe collectively, with all concerned, decide if something can should be done. As a long time IT competitor, please do not hesitate to get in touch with me. Both Louis Boustani and David Boles will be at the TT, They will know how to get in touch me directly.

Respectfully, David Ellis-Brown

I think together we can come up with something. I do not want to accuse or upset anyone. Obviously.. if people are cheating (performance enhancements not piddly stuff) they are going to be resistant. We are trying to reach out to all the CFR folks i. I am excited to see what what boustani in the ex Ronie car will do. The car was fast before and it will be interesting to see how quickly he adapts to the new car.

Unfortunately.. CFR does have a dark cloud outside CFR.. well the term is typically "FL guys". So take that for what it is I guess. Should we care what others regions think about us? That is debatable. Though from talking to a lot of IT drivers they think they have to cheat to win. Which is complete bogus as if you look at the top cars in CFR they are legal, and from time to time they have gone to the ARRC and passed their scrutiny (which is the only tear down in the SE as far as I am aware.)

Sometimes it is new drivers you see doing the bad stuff.. So my thinking is if we get our group get involved we can nip that thinking in the bud and put us behind us and become a more attractive place to play.

Family #1, understandable. We are all doing this for wood plaques, beer mugs, and friends :eclipsee_steering:

[quadzjr]

Just to respond for closure. I spoke to a good bit of the ITB field at Sebring Turkey trots.. I learned basically that though my intentions were good and a lot supported it that it is way more complicated and would be extremely hard to police. Especially for marques that are not well known or older cars.

the next race at Sebring I will see if there is something we can do. I have talked to some and they loved the idea.. I talked to business owners that need to make sure that they do the right thing.. I talked to people that were generally just happy with the way things are, and I talked to people that believes that there is very little cheating.. okay.. so now what?

I do know that the CFR/FL region is not alone in this issue.. so what is the point of battling it? I have stopped and asked that question to myself as I tear another builders motor down tonight. so far every motor I have torn down whether it came from up north or down here in the south has been illegal in one way or another. This last motor was laughable.. I was actually looking for legal bits at the end.. This IT motor had an illegal crank, rods, pistons, CR, rings, head (porting), cams, valves, cam gears, oil pump, etc..

This motor actually did race, once.. it also blew up that race.. so no harm no foul I guess, but still.. It makes me question.. what is the point.

It just sickens me.

I will continue to see if there is something that can happen. It is NOT just a CFR/FL thing.. as I mentioned before. I am going to the machine shop tomorrow with 3 disassembled engines.. and hopefully I can get 1 good one out of the lot and not spend a metric shit ton in the process. Hopefully it will be completed before the next race at Sebring.

[RSTPerformance]

Just to respond for closure. I spoke to a good bit of the ITB field at Sebring Turkey trots.. I learned basically that though my intentions were good and a lot supported it that it is way more complicated and would be extremely hard to police. Especially for marques that are not well known or older cars.

the next race at Sebring I will see if there is something we can do. I have talked to some and they loved the idea.. I talked to business owners that need to make sure that they do the right thing.. I talked to people that were generally just happy with the way things are, and I talked to people that believes that there is very little cheating.. okay.. so now what?

I do know that the CFR/FL region is not alone in this issue.. so what is the point of battling it? I have stopped and asked that question to myself as I tear another builders motor down tonight. so far every motor I have torn down whether it came from up north or down here in the south has been illegal in one way or another. This last motor was laughable.. I was actually looking for legal bits at the end.. This IT motor had an illegal crank, rods, pistons, CR, rings, head (porting), cams, valves, cam gears, oil pump, etc..

This motor actually did race, once.. it also blew up that race.. so no harm no foul I guess, but still.. It makes me question.. what is the point.

It just sickens me.

I will continue to see if there is something that can happen. It is NOT just a CFR/FL thing.. as I mentioned before. I am going to the machine shop tomorrow with 3 disassembled engines.. and hopefully I can get 1 good one out of the lot and not spend a metric shit ton in the process. Hopefully it will be completed before the next race at Sebring.

Start by telling us where these motors came from... Car, Driver, Team, motor builder, etc. I think most of the bigger teams winning up here in the northeast know that a lot is on the line if something they built came back illegal. It's not the best option but it is a start.

Also get to know your tech and stewards well... Maybe even work in tech to build a relationship and learn what tests/items could be tested. Then work with them to make it happen.

Good luck;

Raymond "learned a long time ago to try not and complain at the local level, the races are put on by your friends for your friends, help them and you can help make things happen... Mostly because they can't do everything and need some help" Blethen

[gran racing]

That is disappointing Steve. But at least you're doing what you can to help resolve the situation. I've sometimes thought that a wall of shame should be created whether it be on the regional or national level. Basically it would be a public database listing illegal items found, the car owner, he builder, and any other information both parties wanted noted. Not just a one off in FasTrack, but a record kept for a period of time (7 years?). Maybe even list the costs that were associated. So X car was found to have an illegal crank. That cost that owner $800 in protest fees and 4 races to be missed.

I've had this discussion with my engine builder. He told me that there are plenty of illegal motors out there, but that doesn't make them better or faster. In many instances an illegal motor, not really well built the not tuned by an expert will be slower than a very well built and tuned engine.

In the end of the day, people need to be able to go home from a weekend of racing with their $5 trophy and actually be proud of their accomplishments. This can also be said regardless of where they finish in the field.

How to help this on a larger scale? John N. worked on a protest guide which would be great if it were expanded. If people better understand the process of protesting, have a guide that will assist them in making it less painful for all parties involved and have an idea of costs associated ahead of time, it makes it more likely to happen. Then that makes building illegal motors less tempting.

I've been racing for a while now and the protest process is intimidating to me. If I wanted to check a few items on someone's motor, I have absolutely no clue what the approximate costs would be. I know in some cases it varies greatly such as a BMW 2002 cam, but overall there are many cars that is not the norm.

What I think would be really cool is to have a guide like this created, posted on websites, and then have it handed out with the Sups at some races. Bet it would get more people talking and thinking twice.

[Knestis]

Bang. Into the wall of the culture of cheating.

Make it as complex as we want, at the end of the day the only way to change the culture is to be willing to piss off the cheaters. The protest process is already in place to do that and sadly, in some places, it's also necessary to piss of the people who are supposed to enforce the rules, but it's got to be used.

All the clever ideas in the world aren't going to fix that. Look at it this way, Steve - if folks (all those categories you listed) were disposed to solve the problem without resorting to pissing someone off, they would have done it already...

...and the problem wouldn't exist.

K

EDIT - So, go to the next race ready to file a protest. Pick something that's clear and doesn't require a big check or vagary regarding specs. Then do it. Be prepared to have someone call you a chickenshit, and expect that the increase in anxiety will make your weekend less fun. Get any other like-minded individuals you can find to do the same thing. The culture WILL CHANGE but that omelet is going to require some busted eggs.

[gran racing]

What if within a category or even just class such as Steve going for ITB, it starts off with a few friends protesting each other. Discuss what some potential items might be.

Pizza, beer, give the stewards plenty of advanced notice and tell them it will be a great training exercise. Do some fairly noninvasive stuff. The group of friends splits any costs associated whether found legal or not. A friend learns that is oh so wonderful engine has an illegal X part, use it as a learning experience and attempt to slowly change the culture.

A few years ago Ray and I spoke offline after some rumors popped up. We both agreed we'd be cool with either / both of us protesting each other. He offered to go through his car with me if I ever wanted to. It does help to change things even if slowly.


Pick something that's clear and doesn't require a big check or vagary regarding specs.

I know it's been mentioned in other threads but without spending a lot of time trying to find it, what are some good items? Any general ranges in prices?

[Flyinglizard]

Steve talk to tech. add in the supps , "all IT cars should be ready to back up their cam , compression and gear set numbers". Maybe write them under the hood or on the fender like the weight.
Post the gear chart for your car under the hood.
It is easy to check max cam lift for almost all of our cars. You dont need to pull the BMW cam out of the head . A simple dial indicator will suffice.
Pull VC, roll engine around- read the valve lift. Will it catch all cheater cams?? no. But 90% of upgrade cams increase the lift.Only The very expensive /custom grinds will not over lift but move the lobe centers and increase lift window.
A simple compression gauge will also give a good idea about internals. Can you protest on a compression gauge reading?, no.

Should racers be tossed at this low level inspection? **NO**
Start the "purple book" and make notes, talk with the racers about how to correct the situation.

Post all "Purple book" infractions on the bathroom wall :)

Some other help; A radar gun on the back straight.

The result wil be ; the cheaters wont race
Some legal cars wont race. Some cars will move to Prod. Slowley the class will stabilize .

Last, the MR2 is slow- get used to it.
Happy New year.
MM

[callard]

The first version of the illegal 2002 cams had too much lift. That problem went away when driver committees started doing friendly open hood cam checks. A few dudes were caught and those cams disappeared. The next "release" had proper lift but lobe centers and ramp angles provided the "winning edge". These cams are still in a few BMWs but require head removal ($$$) to check.

[Chip42]

cams are a real sticking point in our vintage class. under IT rules the cam must be stock equivalent, we aren't interested (specifically) in lift.

as they must be verifiably stock, the only "official" way to protest a cam is to send it AND A STOCK IN BOX SAMPLE to Topeka for a spin on the cam doctor.

yes - you can do an installed valve lift/lobe height measurement and toss out the overt cheaters that way, but without a VERIFIED OEM spec cam there's no baseline to pass or fail against, and NIB parts are getting thin for the bulk of IT cars. want to check valve springs? same boat. this makes cam and head work easy cheats because you can't officially do a damn thing about it without parts that you very often cannot get. the mazdaspeed protégé turbo issue at the 2013 runoffs showed how this works, and it's a BAD omen for stock-spec parts use.

re: Culture - it's a tough situation when a bunch of people are HAPPY with the status quo. we DON'T know what the amount of cheating is, and it's likely low in the "stuff that really that matters" sort of way. certainly VERY little of it is grey area exploitation of the rules, what is out there is more likely to be gross cheating like cams or CR (of what matters) and blanked out headlights or removed wipers for the stuff that doesn't matter or is a really obvious violation. the latter is easy to address, make a point of, etc.. but one of the things I noticed was a large number of people at our last outing at sebring who were wondering where the "problem" was because they were all happy with our run group AND were unaware of cheaters, or aware of one or two who didn't bother them because slow or because of whatever reason. the 1 or 2 were not widely agreed upon, either.

so I really don't know what is the "right" way to proceed. this is not a travelling circus, it's a small group of people running together more often than apart and who if illegal are only mildly so and mostly are FAR from full-out builds (some exceptions such as Mr. Boles' MkIII VW are VERY well prepared) so even if they WERE to travel, it wouldn't matter much. the guys who travel tend to be better prepared I nthe first place and with that come s a lot less of the easy cheaty stuff and more of the grey area pushing WHICH IS RACING, not "cheating" until the "law" decides you've pushed it too far. going around the small local group with threats of a protest can and very well might have the affect of driving guys who aren't the problem out along with those who are. I'm not saying that's the reason not to, but I do wonder if the juice is worth the squeeze.

the MR2 IS slow, no doubt about it. the goddamn thing is so unresponsive to IT mods it's almost funny at this point. I'm glad it's still seen by some as an overachiever because it helps me see that the club, despite the best intentions of a lot of very smart and well educated people trying to steer it, is never going to be perfect. and other, more cynical thoughts, too.

[JS154]

How would I implement or propose a blanket wide easy/cheap inspection. Inspection of the simple things like Cam lift and compression. Going on 6 years of racing in this series I have not once seen this whistler machine and have never seen valve lift checked in IT. I know this happens at the ARRC but a lot of the people down here do not run it.


So how to accomplish this task?

We are a self policing organization. No region has the manpower to handle teardowns at an event. Heck at the Runoffs inspections are only done on the top 3 finishers, with cursory measurements done during q sessions.

Also, paper must be filed before the start of a race, or it is not timely.

Best course of action is to continue to self police, starting with conversations with a competitor who is obviously not legal.

[manny]

I won't even comment on how slow my car is compared to the MR2 :dead_horse:

[quadzjr]

I won't even comment on how slow my car is compared to the MR2 :dead_horse:

have you ran your car at tracks that favor your car's layout? I have ran against, and lost every time against Ron S. in his ITB Mustang at RRR. No shortage of money and time went into developing that car.

with the suspension characteristics of the mustang.. I would imagine Sebring would be a scary place to race.

What about Daytona? I know there was a decent race between my father in is MR2 and a mustang running on 3 cylinders there a few years ago. Sadly, the mustang running on 3 cylinders still had the MR2 on the straights, but the MR2 made it back in the corners. Fun/sad race to watch really.

You should come up with us to RRR this year!

[manny]

Is Ron's mustang Marcello's old mustang? Well i did take my motor apart and did find why she was running flat, broken rings will do that :(

[quadzjr]

Not sure.. Ron S. has been running for a while with his car. it is a blue, red, and orange in color.

Where you the mustang that was running at Daytona a while back? I was spectating that race from the horseshoe.

[manny]

I was at Daytona last May, thats when she over heated real bad. It's a yellow and white Mustang 1987

[matt batson]

have you ran your car at tracks that favor your car's layout? I have ran against, and lost every time against Ron S. in his ITB Mustang at RRR. No shortage of money and time went into developing that car.

with the suspension characteristics of the mustang.. I would imagine Sebring would be a scary place to race.

What about Daytona? I know there was a decent race between my father in is MR2 and a mustang running on 3 cylinders there a few years ago. Sadly, the mustang running on 3 cylinders still had the MR2 on the straights, but the MR2 made it back in the corners. Fun/sad race to watch really.

You should come up with us to RRR this year!

I see you have in car vid of roebling...do you have in car of Daytona or other tracks?
If a 3cyl mustang ITB car is walking you on the straights, then there is something seriously wrong...am I right?

either the mustang is cheating, or your build has a lot to be desired, or the process is WAY off with regards to the MR2.

the roebling vid I watched it seemed like your car was right there power-wise with what I remembered in my old ITB car...which was a top third of the field car.

have you considered sending your engine off to a sunbelt or Kessler or whatever engine builder?
they probably have some tricks that could get you another 5 or 10 hp and put you right at the top of the field....

and are we certain the cars you are comparing yourself too are also legal?

I'm just trying to understand all this, cause I've owned an 87 mr2 for many years, and they are not slow.

[matt batson]

Dr. Knestis, No, we are running box stock VW ABA injectors..... As I told you back in 2006-2007..... Our rationale for trying a different injector, was the verbage in the ITCS, section D.1.a .... you disagreed with our "liberal" interpretation... I accepted your reasoning..... We submitted a rules change request to the IT committee, following the same rationale and logic that permitted carbureted cars to change jets, needles and metering rods within the stock carburetor(s)..... Then we should be able to change injectors. Our request was not approved. I accepted that. Thru extensive dyno time, and going to a different engine management computer we have been able to overcome the AFR issues. Now to Mr. Babson's comment, about my driving ability, well I'll let my peers judge my driving ability. I don't recall any of them running into the back of me. Enough said. As far as why I don't go the ARRC. I sent my entry in one year. I then realized we would be spending about $3000.00. for the week in Atlanta. That was about 1/3 of my race budget. My sponsors are all within Central Florida, they would see no benefit. Due to the expense, and having nothing to gain or prove, I cancelled our entry. I can race against Deuce Keane, Chi Ho and other excellent drivers in CFR for a lot less. I'm very proud to be racing in CFR, and against some of the finest ITB cars in the country.

Respectfully, David Ellis-Brown

apologize for my previous comment...I sometimes just type away with little tact.
I also did very much regret our contact that day at sebring in turn 1...as I explained when I came over after to chat, I was a little caught off guard when you continued to turn down onto me, taking a trajectory to track left...instead of tracking out...as one would assume in such a fast turn.
that and my welded diff and very worn and rock hard RA-1's meant that if I got off the gas too much, it would be understeer, and might have made matters even worse.

I pride myself on being a clean racer, and this was my first and only time where I ever hit another car in my 4 yrs on track..

I have video of the event....http://vimeo.com/2467456

as I said, I wasn't expecting you to take that path, and even though I saw you coming, I wasn't expecting you to continue, and I tried to keep it tight to the inside....


now back to the regularly scheduled program....