Carbon Fiber Body Parts???

[AE86ITA]

Could someone chime in on how the rules view te use of either carbon fiber or fiberglass body parts on an Improved Touring car. I understand they can not be used but I'm looking for written words.

Thanks,

[Greg Amy]

Could someone chime in on how the rules view te use of either carbon fiber or fiberglass body parts on an Improved Touring car.
They don't, therefore they're not allowed.

Read the beginning of the IT regs; it states something along the lines of "no changes are allowed unless specifically allowed", or in the vernacular 'if it doesn't say you can, then you cannot'.

IIDSYCTYC.

- GA

[spawpoet]

You won't find any reference to carbon fiber or fiberglass body work under the IT rules, therefore they cannot be used. If it doesn't say you can do it, then you must assume you cannot.

[JIgou]

Could someone chime in on how the rules view te use of either carbon fiber or fiberglass body parts on an Improved Touring car. I understand they can not be used but I'm looking for written words.

Thanks,

Words. Lots and lots of written words: http://www.scca.com/clubracing/content.cfm?cid=44472

In particular, the General Competition Rules, up-to-date through September: http://www.scca.com/assets/2013%20GCR%20September.pdf

[AE86ITA]

Guys; normally people locally ask me for rules interpretation due to either language barrier or lack of time so I understand, the thing is We've been trying to show new competitors what the rules are and then there're some that just need to see it in writing.


Thanks,

[Greg Amy]

...there're some that just need to see it in writing.
It *is* in writing, at the very beginning of the IT regs. Just look in the opening paragraphs where it says you can only do what is specifically allowed within the regs.

You will not find a reg that says you "can't" do specific things, let along carbon fiber body panel. It is physically and metaphorically impossible to list out all the things you cannot do. Instead, the regs instead turn it around and say you can't do ANYTHING unless we say in here that you can. And nowhere in there does it say you can do carbon fiber body panels.

- GA

[Dano77]

As I understand, through years of trial and error, what Greg is saying. Lets not get snippy here.

The Original poster asked where it was written. Its not. We all know what NOT written means. BUT when you are talking to a new member/builder of a car, he/she sometimes needs it to say You Cannot Use XXX as well as you CAN use YYY.

Ive been on both sides of this as recently as this season. Its real easy when talking to someone who May come to a race, to hear that statement. It doesn't say I cant run it, its a race car why cant I run it. The tough part is keeping them interested after that conversation and they find out they need to scrap the ENTIRE Itchy Zoomy Body kit they just had painted to match the roll cage, and install stock(shudder) fenders.

Just my 2 cents:dead_horse:

This again goes to the graying of the club. Kids like flashy cars, as well as engine mods.

[Ed Funk]

Holy poop! Dan's bein' reasonable.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Kinda - what that says to me is that 'they' have a cursory knowledge of the rules but not a full understanding. The IT rules are realatively simple. They state in the very beginning that the only allowances that are legal are what is in the rules. Nothing else.

Hence:

"If it doesn't say you can, then you can't"

IIDSYCTYC.

[JohnRW]

I've got a mold underway for a carbon fiber washer bottle.

[erlrich]

This again goes to the graying of the club. Kids like flashy cars, as well as engine mods.

But we do have classes for all that...just not IT. Also, I'm not sure the original question has as much to do with the graying of the club as the fact that the younger generations don't seem to have the desire/patience/willingness to spend a little time researching rules before they go out and make a bunch of modifications to their cars.

[mossaidis]

^ we have a winner.

[Dano77]

What Earl said. Guess I just said it wrong.

[Matt93SE]

But we do have classes for all that...just not IT. Also, I'm not sure the original question has as much to do with the graying of the club as the fact that the younger generations don't seem to have the desire/patience/willingness to spend a little time researching rules before they go out and make a bunch of modifications to their cars.

Or that they've been modifying their car for years to make it what they want, and NOW they've decided they want to race the car and are trying to find a place to play.

that's the whole reason I landed in STU. I started building a car the way I wanted for HPDEs and AutoX about 8 years ago. when I decided I had the skills and finances to race wheel-to-wheel, the only SCCA class that my car fit in was STU and even then I had to remove several cheap mods (suspension links) that really make the car handle better and eat less tire.

The club-as a whole- seems incredibly adverse to "tuner parts" like big brakes, adjustable suspension links, and fiberglass bodywork.. Other sanctioning bodies welcome these people with open arms, while the scotch-drinking greyhairs are pouring through the rulebook trying to come up with a reason they can't be on track at the same time as their 1967 LeakingBritishDeathTrap.

[JLawton]

You guys all have to admit, the IT rules arent the easiest to interpret. When I built my first car I read the rules over and over before I felt confident that I had captured the nuances. I didnt have anyone to turn to to ask questions and still managed to screw some things up.........

Then again, I'm not one of the sharpest tools in the shed.............


I guess I'll have to strip the neon lights out from underneith my car............

[Chip42]

and we REALLY are talking about an Island here. PR Region does not have the luxury of being able to drive out to the nearest track on the weekend and talk to the guys who are already running SCCA. they are building a new group with our existing rules and without our paradigms. and they have an established culture built from badass old Toyotas, Nissans, Mazdas, and Hondas that really doesn't fit into our club well, even if the nameplates do.

and yes, our rules are complicated because they've grown and evolved to answer the problems they have encountered over the years, where new people come to them without our cultural understanding, just wanting to hit the track with a "cool" car. I get the same sort of reactions at HPDEs that we are hearing here. "why wouldn't you put on composite fenders, add turbo, bolt in JDM/EDM/better USDM known to be awesome motor, pull the headlight for cold air, add a wing, add a body kit, open the grille up, go big on the wheels, go big on the brakes, etc..."

some of this stuff we know to be useless or negative improvement on track (i.e. useless bling or form over function), others just fall outside of the ability to establish parity or regulations to govern fairly via a rulebook and a bunch of disconnected volunteers, some of it is purely "that's not how we do it". we don't want to add classes, and we were overly conservative with ST to a degree , IMHO (though it is the closest thing to the droid they are looking for). so the kids sit there scratching their heads wonder WTF this SCCA thing is all about.

[lateapex911]

Chip's right here. Efrain is just trying to get our help in explaining to people who might not be able to read the English written word, what the rules are.

Lets face it, everywhere we go, we are faced with rules the limit our behavior. No parking. No smoking, No right turn on red, etc etc etc. So, to the average person, it's odd to encounter rules based on allowances only, with everything NOT mentioned being "don't touch".

[lawtonglenn]

...PR Region...are building a new group with our existing rules and without our paradigms....[STU and STL] is the closest thing to the droid they are looking for)... so the kids sit there scratching their heads wonder WTF this SCCA [IMPROVED TOURING] thing is all about.

+1

Efrain ... why don't you champion the development of a healthy STL and STU population, which is closer to what the entering participants already have and understand, rather than trying to get them to "undo racing improvements" to fit the Improved Touring ruleset?

.

[Greg Amy]

Chip's right here. Efrain is just trying to get our help in explaining to people who might not be able to read the English written word, what the rules are.
So how is reading those rules to someone on the Internet - using written English - going to resolve that...? Are you implying that people on this forum are better at reading the regs to someone than them reading it themselves?

The difference here is not because of gray hair or because of geography or because of language, the difference here is regulated competition versus anarchical, pseudo-competition HPDE/street "racing". I'll wager a dollar to a donut that everyone that has "issues" with the regs came into them with a pre-disposed mindset (e.g., Jeff Lawton with his roundy-round and PCA background; our guys in PR with existing cars).

The IT regs are really not that hard to read. They may be frustrating to someone wanting to race a car with existing specific mods, but I think they're pretty damn well-written, especially if you read them for what they say ('ok, what can I do here?'), not skim them looking for what you want them to say ('OK, I've got CF fenders, where can I do that?'). The issue here is a mindset, not a problem of verbiage. It's a difference of "hey, I built this really awesome car for the street and now I want to take it racing" versus "I want to go racing, what kind of car do I need to build?"

Unless you get to someone early in their participation curve, it's the mindset you need to attack, not the regs or the mods already on the car. And the absolute core of the ITCS mindset is IIDSYCTYC.

Get that in your noggin and everything else falls right into place.

- GA

[Chip42]

and I think this forum is doing Efrain's efforts in the PRR a service if we help make that clear to him, so that he might make it clear to them.

I say again, the guys out there don't have the existing culture to help them get into the rules and philosophy. They DO have a bunch of existing cars built around some common themes - SCCA didn't get in there early enough - too busy out in California with GIs and used airstrips, I guess. we have similar stuff on the continent but we also have a long tradition of SCCA and established groups to help attract and coach new people.

They are reading a somewhat anachronistic rulebook with English as a second language. you already understand the IIDSYCYC concept. it's good to point it out. let Efrain carry that back to the rest of the group and see what they come back with. the worst thing we can do as SCCA members is get grumpy with or frustrated by outsiders looking in and asking questions that seem reasonable from their perspective.

[Flyinglizard]

86, Look at the Prod rules or maybe the local SPU, and see if that is a better fit. Many old IT cars go to Prod as the rules are much more open.
If you have a few cars built similar , run them all in one class and have a good time. If one cars kicks ass, just add in 100# and start over.

Some buds run in the DR with glass panels on DOT tires. I can get some rules for that also.
Feel free to E mail me or call anytime. MM

[JLawton]

So how is reading those rules to someone on the Internet - using written English - going to resolve that...? Are you implying that people on this forum are better at reading the regs to someone than them reading it themselves?

The difference here is not because of gray hair or because of geography or because of language, the difference here is regulated competition versus anarchical, pseudo-competition HPDE/street "racing". I'll wager a dollar to a donut that everyone that has "issues" with the regs came into them with a pre-disposed mindset (e.g., Jeff Lawton with his roundy-round and PCA background; our guys in PR with existing cars).

The IT regs are really not that hard to read. They may be frustrating to someone wanting to race a car with existing specific mods, but I think they're pretty damn well-written, especially if you read them for what they say ('ok, what can I do here?'), not skim them looking for what you want them to say ('OK, I've got CF fenders, where can I do that?'). The issue here is a mindset, not a problem of verbiage. It's a difference of "hey, I built this really awesome car for the street and now I want to take it racing" versus "I want to go racing, what kind of car do I need to build?"

Unless you get to someone early in their participation curve, it's the mindset you need to attack, not the regs or the mods already on the car. And the absolute core of the ITCS mindset is IIDSYCTYC.

Get that in your noggin and everything else falls right into place.

- GA


Says the guy with gray hair................. :p

[Chip42]

86, Look at the Prod rules or maybe the local SPU, and see if that is a better fit. Many old IT cars go to Prod as the rules are much more open.
If you have a few cars built similar , run them all in one class and have a good time. If one cars kicks ass, just add in 100# and start over.

Some buds run in the DR with glass panels on DOT tires. I can get some rules for that also.
Feel free to E mail me or call anytime. MM

Mike, not to say you are wrong - because you aren't - but they are asking about clarifying SCCA rules, not how to classify cars to race. if they are going to be the SCCA in PR, they are going to race SCCA cars. doing anything else just borrows our organizational principles, licensing, and insurance. and that's fine, but that's not what he's asking.

[JeffYoung]

Says the guy with gray hair................. :p

Totally agree with Greg. The ITCS is short and can be read in 20 minutes. It's easy to understand. If it says you can do it, do it. If it is silent, you can't. Read the ITCS once a week for a few weeks and you'll see the structure and ideas will start to come to you.

Come here and ask questions once you have a basic understanding of what is in the ITCS.

[erlrich]

Guys; normally people locally ask me for rules interpretation due to either language barrier or lack of time so I understand, the thing is We've been trying to show new competitors what the rules are and then there're some that just need to see it in writing.

Thanks,
Just for the record, here is what you're looking for:

9.1.3.B "Entrants shall not be guaranteed the competitiveness of any car,
and competition adjustments, other than as outlined in section 9.1.3.C,
are not allowed. Other than those specifically allowed by these rules, no
component or part normally found on a stock example of a given vehicle
may be disabled, altered, or removed."

Emphasis added.

[Knestis]

ALL of that having been said, (arguably) the only productive reason we have the distinction between Regional and National events, is that regions can create classes - potentially unique classes - to suit their local context.

I'm not kidding when I say it might make sense for someone to create PRTB, PRTA, and PRTS...

K

[mossaidis]

ALL of that having been said, (arguably) the only productive reason we have the distinction between Regional and National events, is that regions can create classes - potentially unique classes - to suit their local context.

I'm not kidding when I say it might make sense for someone to create PRTB, PRTA, and PRTS...

K

Though sometimes forgotten, it's a fine option to consider.

[adamjabaay]

I'm "younger" and "tuner crowd" (30 yrs old. Been dicking with hondas 12-13 years)

I am starting a family. I work a lot

I was attracted to IT BECAUSE I couldn't mess with the car too much. I had been tracking 9+ years when I bought my basketcase ita crx... I had FAST cars.

I love how restricted and simple the the ita crx is.

and its fun as hell


please don't change anything. Except yank 100 lbs out of my car maybe. Haha

[erlrich]

I'm "younger" and "tuner crowd" (30 yrs old. Been dicking with hondas 12-13 years)

I am starting a family. I work a lot

I was attracted to IT BECAUSE I couldn't mess with the car too much. I had been tracking 9+ years when I bought my basketcase ita crx... I had FAST cars.

I love how restricted and simple the the ita crx is.

and its fun as hell


please don't change anything. Except yank 100 lbs out of my car maybe. Haha
Oh, you're going to fit right in around here :D

[lateapex911]

I'm "younger" and "tuner crowd" (30 yrs old. Been dicking with hondas 12-13 years)

I am starting a family. I work a lot

I was attracted to IT BECAUSE I couldn't mess with the car too much. I had been tracking 9+ years when I bought my basketcase ita crx... I had FAST cars.

I love how restricted and simple the the ita crx is.

and its fun as hell


please don't change anything. Except yank 100 lbs out of my car maybe. Haha
Yea, it's a drift from the original question, but for many, the "not too much, not too little" aspect of the rules is what makes IT the right fit for lots of people. IF it ran at teh Runoffs, I'd bet it would be the right fit for lots more.

being NOT allowed to do lots of things means guys with limited time and resources (like the typ amateur racer) can concentrate on the things that ARE allowed. The more allowances, the bigger the matrix....

[Kahl23]

I'm "younger" and "tuner crowd" (30 yrs old. Been dicking with hondas 12-13 years)

I am starting a family. I work a lot

I was attracted to IT BECAUSE I couldn't mess with the car too much. I had been tracking 9+ years when I bought my basketcase ita crx... I had FAST cars.

I love how restricted and simple the the ita crx is.

and its fun as hell


please don't change anything. Except yank 100 lbs out of my car maybe. Haha

x2
The rules keep costs under control, which a lot of us younger guys need.

For me, it took me a few weeks to wrap my head around IIDSYCYC, but once you understand the premise, it's a hell of a lot easier to build a car with the existing rule book.

Personally, where you guys almost lost me was over the arguments about things like washer bottles, extraneous wires etc. I now have a better understanding of the background of the class and why those things are important to some people, but the initial reaction for me (and others) was "why would I want to get involved in a series where they spend hours debating which wires can be taken out?"

(:dead_horse:)

[#74]

Sorry, but had to jump in.

I understand why is Efrain asking ( guys rather see rules that say what can't be done, but then the book would be endless and full of loopholes)

Anyway.
Most of us have o problem with English (written or spoken) and we are not new to racing or rules ( the Club itself is 40 years old) first Grand Prix in Puerto Rico was in 1962, and we have been thru many rule books.

The main problem is that people build cars without reading the rules, or asking the tech inspectors (we just sent notice to all car drivers and whomever might be building a new car for IT or GT, to feel free to let us know and the tech inspectors will meet them and explain the rules clearly)

Then again I strongly believe we have to adapt to our reality, the cars we have available, and what people are willing to race with..
The era of the Trans Am/GTS, GTU and RS (IMSA) racing all over the Caribbean,Central America and South America are long gone..