re ITS prelude

[dazzlesa]

any opinions on running a 1994 prelude 2.3 liter in ITS at 2555lbs?
thanks rick

[Greg Amy]

Isn't that the car in which Ruck still holds (held?) the track record at Mid-O? If so, I've heard very good things about it.

[dazzlesa]

yes but it seems that a rx7 currently holds the track record

[Chip42]

I'd build one. seriously fast, great torque, the only "problem" is FWD and torque don't always get along. get a good diff and setup the car right and I bet this can be overcome. weight isn't scary, and now HPD supports racers pretty well. good time to run a Honda, ITS is the class in the SE and NE, all else being equal, torque reigns... but I believe there are some good examples out there already to buy, rather than build. save you some $$.

[JeffYoung]

I'd build one. seriously fast, great torque, the only "problem" is FWD and torque don't always get along. get a good diff and setup the car right and I bet this can be overcome. weight isn't scary, and now HPD supports racers pretty well. good time to run a Honda, ITS is the class in the SE and NE, all else being equal, torque reigns... but I believe there are some good examples out there already to buy, rather than build. save you some $$.

A front runner, possibly a world beater at that weight. Kevin thinks it's a better choice than the GSR in ITS due to torque.

I think the general opinon is that it's the best FWD choice in ITS.

Not many built though. OPM's was the VTEC one. I think Kevin's was the only 2.3

RX7 record at Mid Ohio is Huffmaster.....

[StephenB]

any opinions on running a 1994 prelude 2.3 liter in ITS at 2555lbs?
thanks rick

Rick, come to the dark side and build an Integra for ITR! Geoff is doing really well with his!

Stephen

[Xian]

Yup, in talking with Kevin, it sounds like an awesome option. Parts aren't quite as plentiful as the Integra but, aside from that, it's a solid platform.

Another (illegal) option would be to get an ITR chassis, use a GSR engine/trans/brakes/hubs, and run ITS. When ITR competition picks up, you can always "upgrade" to ITR/ITR specs.

[R2 Racing]

With the 2.3L Prelude at 2555lbs, I still think you'd be insane to pick a GSR over it. It weighs 35lbs less, and although it'll make about -10whp, it'll have +50wtq. It seriously digs out of a corner, and runs real hard in a straight line. I think of how much better today's R6 is, how good readily available LSD's have become, and how easier it is to make a custom rear sway bar setup nowadays, and I really believe ours could've been an even bigger rocket today. Stick 2013 rubber on it, a Kaaz type diff, a Speedway style rear bar, and go win. Ours had an OPM/Eckerich diff in it, which worked well, but isn't going to put down torque on a FWD car like a Kaaz would. Ours also had a non-adjustable Nuespeed bar on the back of it, which I always wanted to re-do. It handled quite good, but I still wish it had the direct reaction of a straight bar attached right to the LCA, and a bit of adjustment to it.

[Jeremy Billiel]

Having built a GSR there is no contest. I would take the Prelude ALL DAY

[matt batson]

whatever happened to rucks old prelude?
http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31135

[bamfp]

Still for sale.

[Chip42]

is it still in need of a paint job? because damn.

[matt batson]

is it still in need of a paint job? because damn.

Nope
If you go to the link I posted it shows a killer paint job on the car now

[Greg Amy]

Having built a GSR there is no contest. I would take the Prelude ALL DAY

Having driven the above-built one, then its replacement, I'd not go for the 'Teg in ITS either.

BTW, John Schmidt put a K20 in one of those things and was SERIOUSLY fast in STL at the Runoffs. If'n he'd "kept the damn thing on the island" he'd likely have been top-placing FWD car, a podium-finishing car. So I know the chassis design is a good one.

- GA

[JeffYoung]

Not taking away from Jeremy/Greg/Kevin's recommendations, but I wouldn't discount the GSR entirely. Zsolt and Trever D. have buitl a very fast one, as did Scott Seck in Florida. Car has won races at Daytona, Road Atlanta and VIR, and in fact has the track record (now listed as Zsolt and Trever) at VIR at 2:14.0 in ITS.

I think is is a good choice in ITS, once of probably 8-10 chassis in the class than can win. As a competitor who has raced against the car pretty closely I'd say:

1. Decent power and very good top end (probably aero related).

2. Seems to do well handling wise and keeping the front tires under it on the longer/sweepy tracks.

3. Brakes seem average to very good.

I'm not an FWD guy and if I chose an FWD car, it would be a Corrado or the Prelude, but this car can win in ITS.

[boxedfox]

I drive a 93 Prelude Si in ITS, and while I am by no means a front running driver, I can add that:
A well-designed header makes all the difference - The cheaper aftermarket headers don't do much for the car, but the $1200 race headers for that car make lots of power.
Good stability through fast sweeping turns - I'm guessing it's due to the longish wheelbase and high PMI. My car is a full 100 lbs over the min weight and it's both nimble and stable through high speed stuff.
Passenger compartment is very tight - Low roof and high dash line means that drivers with tall torsos don't fit in the car at all. Pedal positioning prohibits canting the seat back significantly to gain extra space. I have one friend who is a little over 6', and when he sits in my car, is eye level with the front roof bar on the cage.
My car is still very much a work in progress, so I can't say for sure whether it's a winner yet. I am willing to wager though that if I can get the car down to minimum and with a Hytech header coming, this car will be a contender next season.

[matt batson]

I drive a 93 Prelude Si in ITS, and while I am by no means a front running driver, I can add that:
A well-designed header makes all the difference - The cheaper aftermarket headers don't do much for the car, but the $1200 race headers for that car make lots of power.
Good stability through fast sweeping turns - I'm guessing it's due to the longish wheelbase and high PMI. My car is a full 100 lbs over the min weight and it's both nimble and stable through high speed stuff.
Passenger compartment is very tight - Low roof and high dash line means that drivers with tall torsos don't fit in the car at all. Pedal positioning prohibits canting the seat back significantly to gain extra space. I have one friend who is a little over 6', and when he sits in my car, is eye level with the front roof bar on the cage.
My car is still very much a work in progress, so I can't say for sure whether it's a winner yet. I am willing to wager though that if I can get the car down to minimum and with a Hytech header coming, this car will be a contender next season.


has there been side by side dyno testing with these headers? what kind of hp difference are we talking about?
appreciate the input on the prelude...I had kind of convinced myself that I was going to go RWD...but this car is giving me second thoughts

[boxedfox]

I used to have a dyno sheet for a car that basically had the same engine bolt-ons as my car (AEM CAI, Hondata S300, 2.75" almost full length exhaust with a burns stainless muffler), except it used a Hytech instead of the modified DC Sports header that I have. I can't find the image file, but it was over 10hp difference. I'll have a comparison dyno sheet in the spring, if all goes well this winter with my day job.

I would recommend just straight out buying that Ruck car in the classifieds section. Considering what it is the asking price is super cheap. I'd buy it myself if I had the cash on hand.

[matt batson]

I used to have a dyno sheet for a car that basically had the same engine bolt-ons as my car (AEM CAI, Hondata S300, 2.75" almost full length exhaust with a burns stainless muffler), except it used a Hytech instead of the modified DC Sports header that I have. I can't find the image file, but it was over 10hp difference. I'll have a comparison dyno sheet in the spring, if all goes well this winter with my day job.

I would recommend just straight out buying that Ruck car in the classifieds section. Considering what it is the asking price is super cheap. I'd buy it myself if I had the cash on hand.

its on ebay
I plan to bid

[mossaidis]

I used to have a dyno sheet for a car that basically had the same engine bolt-ons as my car (AEM CAI, Hondata S300, 2.75" almost full length exhaust with a burns stainless muffler), except it used a Hytech instead of the modified DC Sports header that I have. I can't find the image file, but it was over 10hp difference. I'll have a comparison dyno sheet in the spring, if all goes well this winter with my day job.

I would recommend just straight out buying that Ruck car in the classifieds section. Considering what it is the asking price is super cheap. I'd buy it myself if I had the cash on hand.

Completely agree. SMSP and Hytech are close in whp and torque results, yet results very slightly from car to car. Both are better than a DC header, though you can't beat a DC header for value.

[JeffYoung]

I can almost guarantee you that no off the shelf header will perform as well as a custom one designed by Burns or Pipemax. No one is tuning their header to a "stock" motor like we are.

I think I spent $1700 total to have Burns design my headers and exhaust, the collectors and installation. Go that route if you want the max. And it's not just peak, it's mid range you are looking for.

[boxedfox]

Completely agree. SMSP and Hytech are close in whp and torque results, yet results very slightly from car to car. Both are better than a DC header, though you can't beat a DC header for value.

Yep yep. I do have to say that it sucks having 3 rotary powered cars fly by you every time you get on the main straight at NJMP Thunderbolt. It was enough for me to break down and finally spend the money to get a good header made.

[quadzjr]

I can almost guarantee you that no off the shelf header will perform as well as a custom one designed by Burns or Pipemax. No one is tuning their header to a "stock" motor like we are.

I think I spent $1700 total to have Burns design my headers and exhaust, the collectors and installation. Go that route if you want the max. And it's not just peak, it's mid range you are looking for.

Just curious how did Burns design the installation? I used Burns then verified with my Pipemax software to get the designed lengths of stepped primaires. For the installation portion I used ICE engineering kit to model it in plastic then transfered that to metal.

[Ron Earp]

Funny to see Burns brought up. I just, as in yesterday, sent off a ton of info to them for exhaust V3.0 seeing if they might be able to help optimize further that we've got dyno plots and more of a handle about how the engine responds. Plus, we have the limitations of design placed on us by the car chassis. Burns helped us do the first two exhaust systems and there is no way I'd even think about an IT or race car exhaust without consulting them and running PipeMax.

Somebody down South needs to buy this and increase our ranks.

[mossaidis]

Yep yep. I do have to say that it sucks having 3 rotary powered cars fly by you every time you get on the main straight at NJMP Thunderbolt. It was enough for me to break down and finally spend the money to get a good header made.

I went from a OBX 4-1 $50 used (good torque, sh*t top-end) to a DC 4-1 $100 used (good all around) to a SMSP 4-1 $350 used (higher whp and no torque loss) to a Hytech $750 used (+1 whp, good torque increase and smoother torque curve). That Hytech and 2 rounds of tuning were the best "bolt-on" engine investments I have made.

[quadzjr]

Funny to see Burns brought up. I just, as in yesterday, sent off a ton of info to them for exhaust V3.0 seeing if they might be able to help optimize further that we've got dyno plots and more of a handle about how the engine responds. Plus, we have the limitations of design placed on us by the car chassis. Burns helped us do the first two exhaust systems and there is no way I'd even think about an IT or race car exhaust without consulting them and running PipeMax.

Somebody down South needs to buy this and increase our ranks.

My question still remains.. how do they design a header without having a model or a go buy of enigne and chassis? I can definetly see them having a model of a SN95 Mustang and maybe a V6 to model the bends and make sure the header fits. However for them to have a TR8 model with Rover V8 woudl be a suprise. Are you recieving bolt in headers from Burns?

[matt batson]

Yep yep. I do have to say that it sucks having 3 rotary powered cars fly by you every time you get on the main straight at NJMP Thunderbolt. It was enough for me to break down and finally spend the money to get a good header made.


once the header was made, did you no longer get demolished on the straights by the rotaries?
and, do you know if these rotaries were top builds (10/10ths)? or is that something you wouldn't know.....?

I'm still leaning towards RWD and 2nd gen rx-7...however, I know they are torque-less...

[boxedfox]

once the header was made, did you no longer get demolished on the straights by the rotaries?
and, do you know if these rotaries were top builds (10/10ths)? or is that something you wouldn't know.....?

I'm still leaning towards RWD and 2nd gen rx-7...however, I know they are torque-less...

I don't have the new header installed yet. Still on the hacked up DC Sports 4-2-1.

If I remember correctly, the two cars that would consistently motor past me were an ex-Speedsource car and an ex-Flatout Motorsports car. While I don't have dyno plots for their cars, I can tell you under no uncertain terms that they both make really good power up top. And I mean double digits more hp to the wheels good power.

[Ron Earp]

My question still remains.. how do they design a header without having a model or a go buy of enigne and chassis? I can definetly see them having a model of a SN95 Mustang and maybe a V6 to model the bends and make sure the header fits. However for them to have a TR8 model with Rover V8 woudl be a suprise. Are you recieving bolt in headers from Burns?

No. You get a cad drawing that shows pipe lengths and diameters, as well as merge collector diameters and specifications. They don't build the header, you do. They sell the collectors, flanges, mufflers, etc. I think they will build a header for you if you're local to them in CA, but I'm not even sure about that. The header fabrication is on your end.

They model your engine in their software (not external modeling, engine simulation). From this model they can optimize the header design. It ain't cheap, but it works and when you're looking for area under the curve it's gold.

[JeffYoung]

My question still remains.. how do they design a header without having a model or a go buy of enigne and chassis? I can definetly see them having a model of a SN95 Mustang and maybe a V6 to model the bends and make sure the header fits. However for them to have a TR8 model with Rover V8 woudl be a suprise. Are you recieving bolt in headers from Burns?

You send them very detailed engine specs on cam, lift, valve diameter, etc. They send you specs for primary lenght, sell you the collectors, and lengths for the exhaust. Hire local roundy round guy to fab it up.

[JeffYoung]

I don't have the new header installed yet. Still on the hacked up DC Sports 4-2-1.

If I remember correctly, the two cars that would consistently motor past me were an ex-Speedsource car and an ex-Flatout Motorsports car. While I don't have dyno plots for their cars, I can tell you under no uncertain terms that they both make really good power up top. And I mean double digits more hp to the wheels good power.

Or, they are just setup better and have a better corner exit....

Look, if you are fairly new, I've been in your shoes. The fast guys look unholy fast and you think it's all power. It's not.

Getting the car setup and getting to the power early is critical.

Kevin's told me the whp and torque the Prelude makes and it is within 10 hp peak of top notch RX7s, and the torque is way, way higher.

The car should be a potential winner in S, if set up and driver well.

[quadzjr]

You send them very detailed engine specs on cam, lift, valve diameter, etc. They send you specs for primary lenght, sell you the collectors, and lengths for the exhaust. Hire local roundy round guy to fab it up.

That is what my experience is.. okay.. I just wanted to make sure I was not missing something.

[R2 Racing]

I went from a OBX 4-1 $50 used (good torque, sh*t top-end) to a DC 4-1 $100 used (good all around) to a SMSP 4-1 $350 used (higher whp and no torque loss) to a Hytech $750 used (+1 whp, good torque increase and smoother torque curve). That Hytech and 2 rounds of tuning were the best "bolt-on" engine investments I have made.
On this (my old) Prelude, we went from a two-piece 4-2-1 DC Sports header to a one-piece 4-1 Hytech Header with Burns merge collector, and at $1300, it was hands down the best $/hp improvement I've ever made to an IT car.

[chuck baader]

If you compare Burns recommendations with PipeMax, you see quite a difference in the collectors. I had a Burns design built, bought the collectors, and it cost me 10hp and 15ft/lb. Went back to my old header with PipeMax recommended collectors and gained more than that back. Most impressive was the gains under the curve and especially from 5000 to 5600 redline. YRMV

[JeffYoung]

YMMV -- yes. Best approach is to use Burns and then double check with Pipemax. I think with Dr. EArp they were close, although I agree the double check is important. And then picking the correct one if they are not....