Porsche 944 in ITS

[Roy]

Doe anyone know how competitive a 944 would be in ITS? Seems like they are reasonable to purchase.

[lateapex911]

How reasonable?? IT would need to be close to free to make it even a consideration, IMO.
If you're building a 944 into a race car, you'd be far far better to just buy an existing logbooked car. That's SOA around here (Standard Operating Advice).

Motors on the 944 aren't cheap to build to race specs, and they don't give up their power easily. There have been some raced with moderate success, but it's far from the 'easy (or cheap) button'. Also, I understand the 944 guru, Milledge, is out of the business.

Thats not to say it can't be done, but winning in one in ARRC level competition will be a seriously uphill battle. As a reference point, Kip VanSteenburg, a nice guy known for his mad driving skills and his deep enough pocketbook to prep a top notch car, struggled mightily to run ITS times at Road Atlanta in his ITR 944.

[jamrce1]

I have a very nice track day car I bought to convert to ITS, needs safety equipment only. We have just about decided we can't be competitive. Our primary interest is running the enduro series. However in looking at 944's I really haven't seen one that I thought was really well done. That is in SCCA ITS. And in fairness I haven't seen them all. I do understand that NASA has a 944 only series where all the cars are prepped the same.
May just be easier to go back to racing formula cars !!

[Terry Hanushek]

If you are interested in racing a Porsche 944, there are a considerable number of cars prepared to Porsche 944 Cup / PCA SP2 specs which are very comparable to ITS (they are permitted to compete in the Fidelity Power Systems Pro IT ITS class). They are in line with the SOA to start with an existing race car. Cup cars do not seem to be fully competitive in ITS; I don't know what it would take to make them competitive.

Terry

[mossaidis]

i don't know what it would take to make them competitive.

$15k :)

[lateapex911]

$15k :)
For the motor.
THEN you get to do the ECU.

here's the nut of it. The ITS cars just can't make Process power, at least to my knowledge and recollection. And nobody has worked the ITAC over recently on the matter. (About 10 yrs ago the ITAC debated long and hard about it.)

The S is spec'ed at 2850. I think thats too heavy.
To be VERY general, Porsches come from the factory with less out of, or nearly out of tolerance parts. Their ECU tunes back then were pretty close. Things are just a bit more optimized than the average car, and the ITAC applies a broad brush when it assumes that all cars will gain 25%. Some just don't.
And proving a negative is very difficult. For one person, the ITAC will want to see a full on engine build from a known reputable shop, and then they MIGHT consider looking for more data. Then, if they find correlation (This step is actually less likely than the first!) they MIGHT reduce the weight.
(Correct me if I'm wrong Jeff and Chip)
Frankly it's a huge risk, and one guy can only provide so much data. So, in this case, (If my memory serves me) a full build engine and ecu and development will push $20K.

You can buy killer RX-7s that will win ITS races all day long for mUCH less.

So things like the 944 and the 911 will essentially rot in a kind of Purgatory chasm.

(Like that Stevie U??)

(I think that, unofficially, the sharp guys on the ITAC know the car is a dog, BUT, how MUCH of a dog is it?? And they have i's to dot and t's to cross. I'm going from memory from when i was on the ITAC, and I considered the car briefly. The S2 is an ITR car, and I actually bought one to convert to an R car, but after poking around it, looking at the budget and the possible total loss of that budget should the motor go, I sold it to a nice fellow down south, who sold it to another nice fellow. I think the S2 R car is closer to competitive, but I wasn't going to bet my $$$. And through all this, I'm talking real deal competitive against the top dogs at the big races. )

If you are REALLY a martyr, and want to pursue it, and want the best possible numbers, contact Chris Camedella. He's an engineer who put a top drawer 944 together, and Milledge built his motor, and he had a full on Motec, IIRC> he posts here very infrequently, or I can dig up his contact info)

[924Guy]

Somewhat along the lines of what Jake's saying... I too nearly bought an S2 to convert to ITR, when I decided I was "done" with my ITB 924.

Then I realized that a) I'd have it sorted and competitive within a year, and be bored again, and II: I could build a DSR for only 10k more and be entertained for years getting it sorted, up to speed, and learning how to drive it.

Still "entertaining" myself, 4 years later... ;)

[JeffYoung]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, lotsa stuff that ain't quite right in this thread.

Let's start over.

1. The 944S2 is probably one of the two cars to have in ITR right now. Kip will handily beat all top ITS cars save one with his, and that one is the Huffmaster RX7 that has probably one of the 2-3 best club racers in teh country behind the wheel.

2. The 944S is probably one of THE cars to have in ITS. Kip originally ran his car as a 944S in ITS and was pretty much unbeatable, except when he broke. And he did break some, apparently the engine has some oiling issues.

3. I've never seen a full tilt ITS 944 at the new lower weight. If you can get 160ish whp, you sould be competitive at that weight.

All that said, Jake is right that the motor is hard to get power out of, but it is there, especially in a 944S. If you like the cars, and have the $$$ for the motor, the chassis/brakes are gret and I think the car can be (and has been) a front runner.

[lateapex911]

Tangentally, Jeff, whats the other car in R?
And, I guess I missed it...what the new lower weight??
There are 3 944 listings.

[JeffYoung]

325is E36 in R down here. That's basically all I've seen run up front, other than Ricky's Z3.

You guys (before I joined) dropped the weight on the 2.5 944 and I've not seen a built one since then. AT that weight, 160-165 whp should be competitive.

Andy will tell you that he thinks the 944S may be light in ITS as it sits now. Kip was pretty much impossilbe to beat in the car, although he blew up a lot of motors too. I think he said something about an oiling issue with the rod bearings.

[924Guy]

Well, to be fair, Kip does know how to pedal pretty good too... ;)

[Andy Bettencourt]

Andy will tell you that he thinks the 944S may be light in ITS as it sits now. Kip was pretty much impossilbe to beat in the car, although he blew up a lot of motors too. I think he said something about an oiling issue with the rod bearings.

I have seen one Pro 944S motor on our dyno and it was STRONG. String enough to think it would walk any RX7 that came out of our shop.

[ITA_honda]

I tested an ITS Porsche 944 for a guy a few years ago. An absolute joy to drive. Total momentum car (you dont think of a Porsche like that, do you?) Loved every minute of it! However, very expensive to maintain and build. So if you've got the $$$, do it. If not, then dont!

[mossaidis]

Perhaps it was the weight, perhaps it was the way the rear suspension was setup, perhaps it was the tires or driver... yet the PCA 944 car I ran with at WGI seemed bogged down in the corners.

[Roy]

Thanks guys for all the input. After taking all this in it sounds like allot of $$$ to make one really competitive. I am a fan of the rx7 having run one in ITA for a couple of years and did very well with it. I know parts are a problem but there is something to be said for pulling up to WAWA with the car on the trailer and filling up the tow vehicle and race car grab a cup of coffee and go racing. So I may look at the rx7 second gen for ITS. Thanks again guys.:023:

[Robbie]

So, to give some info...

Spec 944's will make high 130's to very low 140's. We run stock motors, stock ECU, stock exhaust manifold, stock intake after the MAF. I have no experience how much power you can get with a proper header and stand alone ECU. What works against you is the you can't over bore much, and if you do, you have to get the bores re-plated (Alumasil) and it's not cheap. Also, shaving the head moves can timing away from ideal. Otherwise it's a fun car to drive and has pretty good gearbox ratios.

[924Guy]

The 944 rear suspension, as much of a massive PITA it is to set up (thanks to torsion bars and semi-trailing arms!) is definitely an asset IMO, not a liability... properly set up, it has no problems putting power down deep in the corners.

But it is a right PITA to build and get set, compared to a typical strut setup or the like...

[cjb25hs]

Anybody know if anyone has tried an 89 2.7 liter motor 162hp 140ft lbs

[quadzjr]

I talked to Kip about his ITS 944. He says it was really competitive and he won 7 (or 5 cannot rememmber what he said) championships with it. He made the jump to ITR as a group of fast ITS guys were all going to make theh jump and make it a hot fast class. Irish Mike built his car, and a few others. Now that ITR is dead/dying.. he is building an EP 944.

To give an example of compitivness. This years ITS pole a the SIC was a 1:20.8 which is very fast. Kip said that when he was allowed to rip it he was able to run in the 1:19's. Now that was a few years ago. I am not sure how much tech has changed that he did not already take advantage of.

But like it has been said. It can be competitive, it was competitive, only one person with alot of talent and deep pockets has tried, but he also succeeded.

[JeffYoung]

For what it is worth, I don't think the track has a 19 in it anymore for an S car. But, someone may prove me wrong.

[seckerich]

What year would that be? Do not remember any S car going 19.XX

http://www.mylaps.com/en/events/604747

http://www.mylaps.com/en/classification/1342491

http://www.mylaps.com/en/classification/964841

http://www.mylaps.com/en/classification/662944

[TomL]

The listed ITS record is Mike Flynn at a 1:20.59 from 2008. I don't recall anything faster. A 20.8 today is really good. Particularly considering how the track has slowed down since the last repaving in 2006 (I set an IT7 record at 1:24.4 that year and I (and the rest of the fast 7s) usually run 26s or 27s now.)

[JeffYoung]

Not taking ANYTHING away from Jeff G and his setup and driving skills, but conditions were just about perfect Saturday a.m. Cool, slightly overcast. A 20.8 is flying though as the track has slowed.

In going back through those, it looks like Mike Flynn, Mike VS and John Williams have all run faster laps in S, with John at 1:20.3. Those were in qual in the morning and as we all know, Roebling is always faster in the cool of the morning.

[kipvan]

Hey- check out Q2 10/9/10. I have actually run in the 1.19s numerous times in ITS just never did it during the race. I was particularly happy with this qualifier as it was in the slower afternoon session. Let me know if you decide to build that 944s- I'd be glad to help you. I sure do miss dicing with you guys in ITS- what a GREAT class!

[kipvan]

Take that back- LOL. In 2010 I ran as ITR. The yellow ITS miata was the only ITS car that I ran in the 1.19s with and the best that I have recorded was a 1:19.8 and that was in a morning session. Still, a well prepared 944s can make a great ITS car. Best time that I recorded at Roebling in the 944s ITS was a 1:20.1(close but no cigar). If EP doesn't pan out you now have me thinking about converting back to ITS. Take care and I'll see ya at the track.

[benspeed]

Hey Kip - good to see you on the forum. Will give you a call - want to do the ecu this winter

Cheers

Ben

[924Guy]

Good luck in Prod, Kip... but I can't imagine it being as much fun as IT!

Maybe you need to go single-seater... ;)

[JeffYoung]

C'mon back to ITS. Would love to have you back running with us again.

A 19 in an S car at Roebling is SMOKING.

[Ron Earp]

I do believe those 944s can get it done and clearly it has been proven that they can. When I had the S2 that Jake sold me I was heavily involved in research mode for the car with the goal being an ITR build. I learned a lot about them, but one thing I definitely took notice of is that there is a lot of Porsche "everybody knows" out there that needs to be critically evaluated.

A classic example is the exhaust manifold on the motors that "everyone knows is optimized from the factory. Upon inspection of the manifold, with knowledge of modern race exhaust systems in mind, it doesn't take long to see where gains can be had. But the Porsche faithful, some of them anyway, are convinced that individual components of the motors are so optimized that there are no improvements to be made. The VS crew have proved it can be done.

The two 944s in the spec lines are:

*2V 2.7L at 2635 lbs w/ 1 45mm intake valve, 162hp
*4V 2.5L at 2850 lbs w/ 2 37mm intake valves, 188 hp

I don't have cam specs for valve curtain area, but just based on valve sizes:

*2.7L has 1589 mm^2 intake valve area per cylinder
*2.5L has 2149 mm^2 intake valve area per cylinder

In comparison with my old 260Z, both cars have more favorable intake valve sizes by an appreciable margin, fuel injection, and undoubtedly a better head design than the non-crossflow L head fed by carbs. We were able to generate 176 rwhp out of the 260Z, maybe a bit more on a perfect day, so I think the 944S build taking advantage of all the rules can beat that by a favorable margin. A good deal of research would need to be done to select between these engine choices but it seems a 944 S car would be a lot of fun. If I were building a new car for S this one would be on my short list.

Not sure which I would pick. With no other data I’m in favor of finding the largest motor with the lowest specific output and build that engine, betting that it’ll have the most to gain and that theory would favor the 2.7L engine at 60hp/L. Plus that version weighs 215 lbs less than the other one, but real research would reveal the favorite.

[Andy Bettencourt]

All of that theory assumes that the air metering device isn't the restriction.

[Ron Earp]

All of that theory assumes that the air metering device isn't the restriction.


A good deal of research would need to be done to select between these engine choices

Yep.

[blueray]

I bought a built 84 944 about a year ago. Still trying to sort out the setup and get it handling like I want but it's a ton of fun to drive. I'm off the pace of the fast ITS cars but, I think with the time and car sorting, there's a lot to be gained. They did lower weight. Least in the GCR for mine, it's 2575 now - not an S though. I liked it for the 944 cup, PCA and NASA as well. Love the way it handles. I thought about a newer RX7 or BMW but have always wanted a 944. May not be able to win but, I enjoy it. That's what matters to me!