Mazda RX7 ITA/ITX

[topgear3793]

Hi all, new to this forum.

I am a 2012 Nissan GT Academy National Finalist, and a 20 year old student at Santa Clara University. I'm looking to buy my own race car, as I have finally saved up enough to get myself an entry level RX7 or Miata.

My main question is, why or why shouldn't I buy a first generation RX7 race car (i.e. 1983) with a 12A motor? I am finding a lot of them for dirt cheap; middle of the pack cars for $3500-$4500. Is there a reason they are so cheap? How unreliable are they? Does anyone have any other suggestions for a ~$5000 race car? There are 13B Rx7's for around $4k as well.

I want to be in a class with as many entries as possible on any given day, and pretty competitive. I know $5k won't get me anywhere near a front runner car, but what will give me the best wheel to wheel experience, middle of the pack car, and low maintenance/high accessibility of parts?

Any input on the above would be greatly appreciated!

[joeg]

Welcome, Matt.

I would think one of the looming issues for any Rotary car is the lack of available replacement motors.

Serviceable 12A(s) are getting pretty rare, as is the 13B. This could mean the built cars are tougher to sell.

Also, used race cars pretty much generally are a "bargain" if one looks at build cost.

[Greg Amy]

They're cheap because they're no longer competitive in ITA. And they're plentiful because they used to be competitive. And they're loads of fun to drive, and easy to maintain.

Yes, the 12A engine parts are becoming scarce...but maintain the car and you should need one for a while.

Does your region offer an IT7 class (IT-spec first-gen RX-7s)? If so, go for it, you'll have a lot of fun.

- GA

[Matt93SE]

Welcome!

Cruise the RX7 boards and you can still find lots of parts for them. The problem is finding complete, running engines that are in good shape. They're all 30 years old now so there's not a ton of life left in them. That said, as long as you don't TRY to kill them, they're pretty durn reliable.

If you're just starting out, I'd suggest picking up one with a 13B, which will allow you to go a bit farther with the car if you want to step up in speed to Production or Super touring later.

Another option for a cheap car with plenty of competition is Spec Miata. mid-pack around here, there is a LOT of competition and you really have to be able to wheel the car to get to the front. A decent Miata starts out a bit more than $5k, but will literally go years with regular maintenance.

If you're a Nissan junkie, find yourself another couple $k and buy my 240SX. It's hardly prepped for STU, but it will run with the front of the pack Spec Miatas all day long, and with the proper engine and shocks, you can knock off 5+sec a lap and run with the fast STU boys.

There are some other cars I've seen for sale recently that would be great starter cars, but they're all either local to me in TX, or in FL. By the time you ship a car from FL, you could spend a couple more $k locally and wind up with a faster car.

[Chip42]

I'd avoid cars that you don't have a field for. IT7 (ITA) RX7s are (were) great cars (in their day) but part scarcity and potentially running in a class of 1 or 2 cars makes the "value" drop significantly. likewise, the 2nd Gen RX7 is an even better car with great ITS fields (in some parts of the country) and no crippling parts scarcity (well, the old volks wheels are getting hard to find...). but again, if there's not a strong ITS contingent in your neck of the woods...

before you buy anything, check your local SCCA calendar, stop by a race, talk to some people, and see what's running there. if NASA is big out there, do likewise with them. find something you can run at the most events with the best fields and start shopping.

SCCA national classes (i.e. found in the GCR and not IT) are probably a good idea given the runoffs coming to your neck of the woods in 2014, assuming you meet the above criteria.

[Marcus Miller]

As a former member of the San Francisco region, I'd encourage you to look at a different option; locally those Rx7's are oinly fast enough to get you mid pack, right in the kill zone for double dipping Spec Miata's. At this point there are very few true IT cars in the region, most of the ITA & ITX (local regional class designed for double dipping IT cars) cars will be Spec Miatas, I'd look that way, a mid pack car for be had for only a bit more.
Just my 2 cents...

[lateapex911]

They're cheap because they're no longer competitive in ITA. And they're plentiful because they used to be competitive. And they're loads of fun to drive, and easy to maintain.

Yes, the 12A engine parts are becoming scarce...but maintain the car and you should need one for a while.

Does your region offer an IT7 class (IT-spec first-gen RX-7s)? If so, go for it, you'll have a lot of fun.

- GA
Says the guy who doesn't maintain one!

[Greg Amy]

Says the guy who doesn't maintain one!
Replies the guy that no longer maintains one...

;)

[spawpoet]

If what you really want to do is just drive, dig a little deeper and find a Miata. There's zero chance you will have problems finding parts, your car wont be obsolete for at least the next couple of decades, they are a cheap car to run in terms of wearables (tires, fuel, brake pads), and if you can drive you'll be pretty competitive right away. The downside is they seem to trade paint a little more in SM, but if you go the ITA route with a Miata you might not have much of a problem with that. Matt's 240SX above looks like a pretty good option too if you want to go the non-miata route, and the 2-3 friends I've known that have run these have had few mechanical issues.

[lateapex911]

Replies the guy that no longer maintains one...

;)
And I'm not missing changing brake discs every couple events due to heat cracks, and having to replace bearings along with them, as bearings are set (pressed) into the disc on the 1st gen 7. Nor am I missing the time bomb worry...what happens when the engine inevitably lets go??? Mine got all the proper attention, the best oil, the proper premix AND metered oil, and it lasted thru years of abuse, and set numerous records for me, but....when it goes, you are at the mercy of the used part world. Heck, waiting for a gasket set from mazda was a 6 month wait. And, unless you can reuse all the balanced components, you should plan on at least $3K to get back up and running. Which is nearly the net worth of the car.

SO......unless the car you get has a fresh engine, the clock is ticking. Trouble is, when did it START ticking?? How long will it be before it stops ticking?? Thats a nerve twanging question when you're making an investment.


For our OP, I'd say, yes, the cars are cheeeep. They are fun. They CAN be easy to run, and need little more than premix and 87 octane. (Unless you are striving for lap records and such, then things go pear shaped fast.)

But the cons:
Future is bleak for parts supply. (and not just the engines)
Lack of competition.
Lack of residual value.

The smart move is a Miata. It can run in tons of classes. It always has a market so selling it will be always possible. Parts are readily available. It drives like a dream. They are everywhere, so you always have competition. You can raise your game at will and still be racing somebody. It's easy on parts. it fits on trailers and in garages easily. It crashes well. It's tough as nails. ANd it's fun.
The con: It's the darkside. A little gehy.

[topgear3793]

Thanks for all the replies! I figured as much with rotary engine parts becoming obsolete. I will try and rework my financials and see if I can afford miata territory. Can someone highlight the difference between a SM class miata and an ITA class miata, and how easy it is to move between the groups? Also which class is typically more popular and competitive?

Also, I wouldn't mind taking a look at Matt's 240sx if someone can post a link on here. Also any links to ~$6k miata's would be helpful as well, I am having difficulty finding any under $7-8k.


Again,
Thanks for all the responses!

[darthmonkeyIT]

Thanks for all the replies! I figured as much with rotary engine parts becoming obsolete. I will try and rework my financials and see if I can afford miata territory. Can someone highlight the difference between a SM class miata and an ITA class miata, and how easy it is to move between the groups? Also which class is typically more popular and competitive?

Also, I wouldn't mind taking a look at Matt's 240sx if someone can post a link on here. Also any links to ~$6k miata's would be helpful as well, I am having difficulty finding any under $7-8k.


Again,
Thanks for all the responses!

Welcome to IT forums!

As far as I remember (which means I am not going into the rule book and might be wrong) SM's differences from ITA is in the intake(restrictor requirement), exhaust(SM spec exhaust verse IT prep exhaust limits), and tires.

A fully preped SM car is not ITA legal while a fully preped ITA Miata is SM legal if you run on the SM spec tires. A ITA preped Miata though will not be as competitive as a SM speced Miata in a SM race. It does allow you to double dip though when the SM field does not run with ITA field.

Overall you need to evaluate the local fields and determine which has stronger competition while being safe/friendly. Ladder comment because SM fields tend to have a more rubbin' is racing attitude than the IT fields. Miata parts are easy to find but every SM guy I talk to speaks of his double digit number of spare fenders and bumpers back home.

Sounds like you have some good experience in wheel-to-wheel racing so double dipping may not be as big a value to you. On the other hand learning a new car takes time. You could prep the car for ITA and double dip SM and ITA for the first few years. Then decide if you want to race full time in SM and further prep the car from there.

IT is also a regional only class while SM is Regional/Majors class. I believe in 2014 the Majors Runoffs will be at Laguna Seca. if you compete in SM you are eligible to particpate at the Run Off's. You will need a Major's liscence which will require completing 4 events to qualify for.

[mossaidis]

A fully preped SM car is not ITA legal
True


while a fully preped ITA Miata is SM legal if you run on the SM spec tires.
False, a fully prepped ITA is NOT legal in SM as IT prep does exceed SM prep in many areas. Plus there's no difference typically in tires between a SCCA SM and SCCA ITA Miata since most ITA Miatas choose to put on SM6's or 205/50R15 Hoosiers. Many regions allow Toyo's RA-1 and Toyo RR as SM specs tires, which are generally a tad slower than HoHo's.


A ITA preped Miata though will not be as competitive as a SM speced Miata in a SM race.
False as stated above, a fully prepped ITA miata is not legal in SM. All things being equal, a fully ITA Miata *should* be more competitive than a fully prepped SM. Driver quality/skill is a different issue.


It does allow you to double dip though when the SM field does not run with ITA field.
Though not fully prepped SM cars are not ITA legal, most regions and competitors look the other way when 90-98 SM cars enter ITA. '99 SMs register in ITS with or without a restrictor. Typically 1.8 SM cars now enter STL since they don't need to put on all that lead in the car.

[Chip42]

darth is close.

all 1.8L SMs have restrictors of various sizes.

all SMs use a spec suspension package including springs, shocks, and bars. the motor has very specific prep rules, and the exhaust manifold is stock, as are much of the electronics and whatnot. a light prep SM should be IT legal sans the restrictor (which anyone in IT will LET you run but you don't need).

SM allows some non-IT mods, like 1.8L NA (1st gen) diff carrier and internals into a 1.6L NA, "vent" window delete, etc... a full prep SM is NOT IT compliant, particularly the 1.6L cars.

IT allows any shock with up to 2 external adjustments, any spring, any bar, different engine prep, more open electronics and open ECU, etc... and they do not cross over readily to SM.

it is entirely possible to make an IT-SM hybrid car that is legal in both classes, maybe with a restrictor plate in/out. but you won't be competitive in either. weights are different, so add lead to the higher minimum or pull out the difference between run groups.

as stated, SM can run for a national championship and runs at the runoffs. IT does not.

SM and IT can run ST (U or L, a Miata would be L) in their IT and SM trim and weight, or be prepped to STL or STU, or you could run a Miata in FP, EP, GTL, etc... at various levels of additional modification.

I'd be on the lookout for a 1.6L (early NA) or 99-00 (early NB ) SM car with good pedigree. it will cost ~8k min but you will have a good starting point for the Miata car club of America.

as a note, TSM (turbo spec Miata) is around in the west, but NOT east of the rockies. I'd avoid turbo SM if you want to be able to go to the runoffs as these cars don't cross over to national classes.

[Aditya8100]

I am also looking forward to buy RX7. I read out interesting and informative ideas. No doubt if NASA is big out there, do likewise with them. This will be helpful for me. thanks everyone...