Street tires in IT??

[lateapex911]

Lately, there's been some chatter about how good the newer street tires are and how they make very good race tires. Chump, lemons, etc guys use and abuse them for hours. Other than the 'divide by 4" thing, the Chump and lemons guys claim that the racing is cheap largely due to the tires lasting much longer than the typical Hoosier R Comps.

Closer to home, our own IT.com regulars, the Blethens (Steve and Raymond) have been running their ITR RX-8 in enduros with some 200TW tires. (TW=Tread wear rating)

In the NE area, Dan Shepard (Dano77 here?) has organized an IT7 class that runs Miata wheels and Nitttos that they buy from Walmart. he's rather pleased with their cost savings.

Over on the brownboard, there is a active thread where a guy who runs Chump wants to come and play in IT. But he's very worried about the costs, and thinks street tires are the answer. But........he'll be schooled and he knows it. (Not just because he's a new racer, or his car isn't max prepped, but because he knows he's giving up significant time per lap due to the tires.)

He's competitive so he's reluctant to go into a gun fight armed with a knife.

He's looking for ideas on how to get IT off the purple crack.

So, as you can imagine he's gotten some responses from the SCCA guys, along the likes of "You want to run street tires? You can. Stop whining", while others have been open to ideas and discussing concepts.

My blue sky idea was to start regionally, and have a gentlemans agreement where each IT class allowed a certain % weight break if you ran on 200TW or harder tires. That % would be different for each IT class, as the affect on performance will be largely nil on ITC cars where it could be significant on heavy high power ITR cars.

There are issues of course: Not all cars have weight to lose: some are as low as you can go. Some cars won't be able to get the tires in the right sizes. Final drive, and chassis setup changes would need to be made in other cases.

So it would be an optional thing. And the % weight break would be carefully researched and designed to NOT make the street tired car a winner. it wouldn't be fair to existing stakeholders to change the rules, and have the rule be such that all can't take advantage of it. So the % would be conservative.
Again, the idea would be to attract guys who look at racing as fun, and want at least a longshot as a trophy, but can't afford the crazy tire costs.

Costs: Depends on tire sizes, but, figure many guys spend $1000 a set for hoosiers with mounting balancing etc.

That number drops to 600 with these cheaper street tires. Lets say all up it's $700.

Not that much savings. But the real savings come in when you factor in how the tires cycle out. IF you're a guy with a RWD ITS car say, and you aim for trophies in a competitive area, you'll likely retire your Hoosiers after 8 sessions.
Reports are that these newer streets last 20 sessions or more before slowing down.

So, at 16 sessions you've got $2000 in Hoosiers, or you could have $700 in streets. at 25 sessions it's $3000 in Rs and $1400 in streets, 33 sessions its $4000 in Rs and $1400 in streets, and so on.

Bigger picture, if this were to take off regionally, the ITAC would probably take a look at it, based on requests. It wouldn't be easy or simple, but I'm sure they could figure something out.

So, what say you IT guys??

[JLawton]

I'm one of those guys who's one a tight budget so I'm all for it Jake............ I just don't think it would stick. Good idea! Good start!!

Tell the guy on "the other board" to try Hankooks. I found them to have the same potential as Hoosiers for a fast lap plus I think they lasted a little longer. I had other issues with them but if you want to go just as fast at a significant savings.............

[dickita15]

The conversation is interesting but honestly we just do not know enough about how the tires would perform. What would be great is if somewhere a group of IT competitors would do a gentlemen’s agreement and run a few races on them so we could have some real world comparative data.
I suppose one could even set up a double dip class in a different run group to try it out.

[gran racing]

Hey Jeff, your Hankooks are "on the boat and should arrive within the next few months." That's how their supply works.

Street tires are interesting. I don't know in the end how one truly controls things. I do not know the history, but didn't categories try something along these lines by making a DOT requirement which turned into two groves around the tire?

SM did the Toyo spec tire, but then people were shaving them to 2/32nds.

If there were a big enough tire market which Hoosier and other companies believe there are, what prevents them from getting motivated to making "the street tire" which exceeds others being used in Chump? Even if it requires a wear rating of XX, that can be gamed and improved upon. I don't think Chump is big enough to warrent a company making a special tire but if you add in more SCCA and potentially NASA classes, maybe.

Or do you believe what I menioned above wouldn't happen? Don't know, just wondering.

[Greg Amy]

...What would be great is if somewhere a group of IT competitors would do a gentlemen’s agreement and run a few races on them so we could have some real world comparative data...I suppose one could even set up a double dip class in a different run group to try it out.
Winner.


...didn't categories try something along these lines by making a DOT requirement which turned into two groves around the tire?

SM did the Toyo spec tire, but then people were shaving them to 2/32nds.
Dude, SM'ers are shaving Hoosiers....

Showroom Stock started out on the DOT bandwagon "to save costs" (the dominant club-racing tire at the time was bias-ply slicks.) Competitors realized they were faster if they "trued" them. SCCA put in a reg that required "discernible tread" to keep from having them shaved into a slick. Goodyear realized there was no reason to mold a full tire then shave them so they offered the GS-CS at the 1991 Runoffs as basically a slick with a couple of grooves masquerading as "discernible tread" (a surprise even to the competitors). SCCA and competing tire companies threw a conniption fit and tried to get that tire tossed out (which had us Goodyear drivers wondering what we were gonna race on) but relented when GY pointed out they were 1) DOT approved and 2) had a discernible tread.

Soon after, Hoosier entered the market and dominated and many other tire companies decided to pretty much pull out of the DOT tire wars.

And the rest, as they say...

This is not a bad idea, but it's not a magic-fix-all bullet. It would work for a short time but it would not take long before folks leverage the letter of the regs to overcome the philosophy. It's what we do.

- GA

[joeg]

Can't really turn back the clock to the good old days of those BFG tires.

Remember those?

IT is far too wide ranging to have spec tires. Moreover, as was pointed out, you need many different sizes to accomodate IT.

I see many people happy with the Hankooks, but crying over availability.

[Xian]

What's a little interesting here is how much this discussion mirrors the same one that SCCA Solo recently went through with their "Stock" class. Stock had the same tire escalation which ultimately resulted in all the "fast guys" running Hoosier A6's. For years there have been complaints about how many RUNS the tires are good for combined with their cost... but you needed them if you wanted to win. Finally, the organizing group for Solo (SEB?) changed the rules. Bang. You'll need a 200TW tire for Stock (now "street") Class starting in 2014, IIRC. This also meant that they had to upend the apple cart and move cars to different classes based on the estimated performance potential they'll have on "street" tires vs. R-comps. The gnashing of teeth that this has caused on the Solo community is simply staggering... seriously. You want to talk about some pissed off people, wow!

The question being raised relative to IT and street tires is the same sort of thing. what's best for the category long term? Stability with the existing tire rules? A +1 sub-class? A complete revision?

IMO, the ITAC isn't ready to make the move to require 200TW tires, the majority of entrants aren't ready to make the move, and nobody is ready to add another class to IT (officially). That leaves you with a Gentleman's Agreement OR allowing an additional Regional Class that specs or otherwise takes into consideration 200TW tires. Personally, I'd take a long hard look at the PTx rules in NASA and either crib them or explicitly allow PTx prepped cars to run SCCA events.

<---- no dog in the fight but quite a bit of experience on old-school "performance" street tires, R-comps, and the new crop of "performance" street tires.

PS
I'd also be willing to wager that, after a session or two, most IT drivers would be within sniffing distance of their times on R's. No, the street tires aren't "that good"... but they're easier to drive. I suspect most recreational IT drivers are leaving a ton of time on the table with their current tire choice and don't realize it.

[Dano77]

OK Jake called me out on this, heres how we did it with the Nitto NT-01

I got the 77 back form the gentleman that bought it. Yeah lets call it that. I was preping the car for 2009 and wasent happy with the cost of the Purple Crack in a 13 inch tire.

Somehow a thread was started here regarding the costs of tires, sound familiar, Mr Andy Bettencourt posted that we need to "make Friends" with a Miata guy and get thier take offs. So I made the call.

We experimented with going with a Miata bolt pattern and a spacer/adapter to get to that bolt pattern. While trying this i saw an add for the Nitto in GRM and made the first phone call.

Nitto was very receptive to the idea of getting onto a spec series in a market they werent in. The deal was struck and 50 NT-01's appeared at the 7's Racing Skunk Works SOUTH location.

Blah Blah Blah

Found out that Konig buids a wheel in our bolt pattern, make the call. We all have Konigs now with Nitto's

As for the tire,the costs, and the rest of the story

[Xian]

And for those who are reading along but haven't driven on the Star Spec/Z2/Rival/etc... they're pretty equivalent to an RA-1 but won't chunk at full tread. Nobody has been able to get these tires to cycle out before they wear out. Shaving yields minimal improvements as there's not a ton of void area in the first place (unlike the Toyo RA-1: see also, chunking at full tread). A FWD car with ~125whp @ 2300-2400 race weight is getting 24+ hours on track out of a set of 205/50 15 or 225/45 15 tires.

Think of them as a longer lasting and almost as good NT-01 for even less money.

Peak G-loads are in the ~1.3-1.4 range with sustained G's in the 1.1-1.2 range... a couple tenths below a Hoosier and just a touch below the RA-1/NT-01/R888.

[Dano77]

The Tires, They are a R compound 100 TW. Basically a Toyo RA-1 with a different tread pattern. The tread pattern is larger blocks so they dont NEED to be shaved, although we experimented with it. They are heavier by like a pound due to the larger tread blocks.

Do they work? HELL YEAH They work, we have been able to get as many as 40 heat cycles out of a set. the last time I set a lap record the tires were on cycle number 30ish. We arent that good at tracking it so I just added up the days we ran those tires. They are still mounted and have been used by others in the group.

When we started this the 205-50-15 was 125.00 225-45-15 was 127.00 We went 205 due to rolling resistance and thats what Nitto was willing to supply at first. we ran those first tires for 2 seasons.

The costs went up from the Tire Guys for 2013 so the question came up again regarding the costs. Dick made a very good point of the fact that we know what we have and how long it lasts. another 30 bucks each wont break the bank due to life cycle. Some where along the line of internet shopping, Mike B found that we can buy them at Walmart, yes that Walmart. And they ship them to us for free. If you go to the super center with a tire guy, they will mount and balance with the purchase. You have to ask and then you need to explain to the dude what we race. Then you get to hear about HIS car and all the mods and races he does. Still asking myself if its worth the mount and balance. Nothing is free.

Lap times., we havent made a back to back with the Nitto vs the Hoosier/GY/Hankook. No real need to we all run the same tire. we are all running pretty consistent to what we used to run with a Hoosier. Again, we arent that specific with that stuff. I will tell you that the track record at NHMS was a 1:19:xxx with a Hoosier and its now a 1:17:9 with a Nitto. Although that was the 77v1.0, now we are into the 77v3.0 Jury is still out.

Come by and check out the NERRC IT7 Dinosaur Super Series anytime.

[quadzjr]

Just like I said on the other forum. I like the idea of a better longer lasting tire.. I dislike the idea of having a weight break for the tires. For the reasons mentioned above.. the biggest is that some cars cannot already reach their minimum weight. Some cars are alot of cars. This will then not affect IT as a whole.. just those that want to try something else. So in affect you allow a group of people run lighter and cheaper tires and still be competitive. Yet the odds out get stuck with haivng to buy the $$$ tires to keep up.

Additionally, everyone mentions but quickly seems to disreguard it. ITB and ITC are left out in teh dry.. these tires do not come in their sizes. I understand that ITC is a field that not much attention is paid and I assume as new cars get faster ITB will be the same. However, currently ITB is a strong field. these tires that you speak of do not come in sizes that ITC and ITB run on. BFG rival? nope.. Bridgestone RE-11? nope.. Dunlop ZII? only a 185/60R14. Racing on a 60 series tire?

You mention that the weight break would be designed so they are NOT make the street car a winner and only have a chance at a podium if things work out.

According to Xian and others, these tires are not too far from a hoosier and in fact many claim that most would not see a big difference in overal time.

So if this IS the case.. then the cars swapping over to the "street tires" would already have a chance to win if things work out and they get to run the cheaper tires already.

I have run these street tires on my current street car and I love them. They are a incredible tire and they were my rain tires every race weekend until this last weekend. (the idea of having to remove the tires from my street car every race weekend was not an attractive one.)

I have raced at sebring in a dep ITB field (20+ of us on a drying track). The field was a mixed bag of tire choices. I was on Full tread RA-1s at the time and was beat out by an another compitor with his VW on Start specs. Now torque played out in that role but I was impressed with his tires.. he carried quite a bit of corner speed as the track dried.

After that I put them on my street car.. and the rest is history.

But if the performance is not that far behind the current tire, and teh idea is to give them a shot if things work out in their favor, why adjust the weight at all?

[Blair Deff]

Ok guys, I was linked here by a friend of mine who thought I might find this interesting because I mentioned to him, not a month ago, that maybe the IT alphabet should look into alternative tires, for cost reasons for existing IT platforms AND for attracting new customers. I am an IT7 guy, as you know we run a spec tire. We consistently cord RA-1's before we see a drop in speed. I am an RX-7 enthusiast, that being said I have been offered test sessions is newer ITS cars and wow, how much fun it is to drive a car newer than 79.

My brother and I have been discussing building a car together, we fall between an ITB MR2, an ITA Integra or CRX or even an ITA 240SX. Hoosier costs alone are why we have picked up an old ITC Pulsar, yes. Pulsar. For free and are just messing around with it, using the same 6 year old RA-1s it came with and loving it. If we didnt have to spend a grand every other weekend or so on tires to be fast we would already be looking for/building a chassis. That is one completely new, instant IT player if tire costs drop and that is just my story. I suspect if we do some asking around you will find similar stories. "The cost of Hoosiers are too damn high!" As it were.

This very conversation goes on in my paddock nearly every weekend and I am sure it goes on in all of yours as well in one capacity or another, I really think (or dream) that if a spec tire rule or something of the nature was put in place IT alphabet would start to come back. That is my two cents, thanks guys for bringing this subject matter to more than "you know John, with that yellow IT7 car? he said RA-1s last longer than Hoosiers."

[Xian]

The recent crop street of street tires are definitely *not* as good as a Hoosier. No way, no day. But they're pretty comparable to the RA1/NT01/etc... basically the 2nd tier R-comps of yesteryear. Apples to apples (driver/prep and only difference is tires), I'd expect there to be a second or 2 difference between 200TW and R6's. In a vacuum, the Hoosier driver *should* be able to drive away from the 200TW driver... in reality, I suspect that the gap *may* be less due to the 200TW tire being easier to drive.

I know that I've driven past/around folks in a LeChump shitbox that I "shouldn't" have been faster than... some of that was driver and some of it was that the car/tires are easy to drive at and over the limit. Not nearly as edgy as the R6 (for better and worse). As a parallel... it's the difference between a car that can lay down a single fast qualifier but is a nightmare in the race because it keeps trying to kill you vs. the car that gives up a touch of responsiveness in exchange for a setup that can be driven to 10/10th's more easily/repeatably.

[JeffYoung]

We are going to do back to back testing on the TR8 and an ITS Miata at Charlotte just to see what the real difference is. THere is a significant fear that they may not work on higher hp RWD IT cars.

All in all, you CAN run these tires right now if you want in IT. But devising means to make you competitive on them is a can of worms I certainly don't want to open right now.

[autoxmike]

We are going to do back to back testing on the TR8 and an ITS Miata at Charlotte just to see what the real difference is. THere is a significant fear that they may not work on higher hp RWD IT cars.

All in all, you CAN run these tires right now if you want in IT. But devising means to make you competitive on them is a can of worms I certainly don't want to open right now.

Jeff,

Think of it as an Adjustment to make 200TW tires a little less uncompetitive. Err on the conservative side. The idea is to throw a bone out there. This may get people that are on the fence about getting into IT to jump in. And it will encourage more current IT folk to give them a try.

Then observe and see what happens. React as appropriate.

Mike Taylor

Ps: I'm the LeChump guy trying to be constructive.. I wanna race with you all. I really do!!

[Chip42]

there are other means of incenting the people to give street tires a shot that don't go mucking with rules that are lauded for stability and objectivity.

gentlemen's agreement, race within a race. get trophies, decals etc.. to set yourselves apart but run 100% within the existing rules and classing structure so as not to make THAT scenario worse. maybe attempt to get BFG or Dunlop on board for support of testing, offering through trackside dealers we already know and appreciate, and maybe in offering contingencies.

we can do this. I'll even volunteer (my wife will kill me) to handle all of the nonsense within the CFR, and I'll help write a packet of rules / requests for sponsorship, etc.. to share with the rest of the SEDIV or NEDIV etc... to get their own matching series going. think of it as the ITNT for the rest of us. call it the Street Tire Challenge or something.

there. a championship, a way to race on street rubber. incentives in terms of competition not by trying to make performance adjustments a'la PT. if it becomes successful, SOMETHING will happen. that's how our club works.

[Matt93SE]

Just to throw another stick on the fire, I haven't bought a new tire for my car in about 5 years. There are TONs of takeoff R comps for cheap. Hell, I haven't even paid for the last (and only) 3 sets of Hoosiers I've used, and was paying $35/tire for BFG-R1 from a local MX-5 Cup team.

Do I win? No. Will I win even if I'm buying $1000 in tires every weekend? No.
So why bother paying that purple crack dealer if it's not going to put me at the top of the podium?

But hey.. uncompetitive cheapskate racers still race. :)

[lateapex911]

Can't really turn back the clock to the good old days of those BFG tires.

Remember those?

IT is far too wide ranging to have spec tires. Moreover, as was pointed out, you need many different sizes to accomodate IT.

I see many people happy with the Hankooks, but crying over availability.
Wait. NObody said ANYthing about a "Spec tire"

The idea was, a gentlemans agreement within the existing structure that say 200TW tires from any maker get a % weight break.

Now, coomon sense dictates that the % weight break isn't going to be the same for ITC as it is for ITR. Sorry, physics rule there. So, sadly, the ITC and ITB guys might not get the opportunity that the higher class guys get. They wouldn't anyway because of available sizes.
But, if it were to help a large percentage of racers in classes where cars can still be classed (Anyone seen a new ITC VW Bug run?) then it's a good thing.
Nothings perfect.

[quadzjr]

Chip you have enough on your plate as it is.

If you select a tire supplier to sponser, it is pretty close to a spec tire.. the only difference is tire sizes. then it becomes who can fit the largest tire on their car. After jumping up 10mm on width on my street car within the same type of tire (Dunlop star specs) it makes a big difference.

Right now the larger R compound tires do corner better but due to the increased traction they are slower in the straight line, so it kinda washes out. Before each race I have been testing 205 v 225 tires on each racetrack to determine what is the tire to have.

With the less sticky street tires the difference in rolling resistance form a 205 to 225 is not going to be as high so running a wider tire is not going to slow you down as much in the straight. In ITB this is not a really big deal as we are limited to 6" wheels. However in the higher classes with wider wheels I can see it being who can fit the rubber.

[Ron Earp]

My brother and I have been discussing building a car together, we fall between an ITB MR2, an ITA Integra or CRX or even an ITA 240SX. "

Noble effort, but you live and race in the SE where ITB/ITA racing is slim pickings. If you get your tire wish then it won't cost any extra to run in ITS where there are a lot of cars and healthy competition. There is a reason why Ron, Neil, and many others bailed on ITA.

[Xian]

FL still seems to have decent turn-outs in ITA/ITB... but the rest of the SE is pretty skinny most of the time.

[Chip42]

FL still seems to have decent turn-outs in ITA/ITB... but the rest of the SE is pretty skinny most of the time.

yup, pretty common to see 10-15 ITB cars and at least as many ITA at any CFR regional or SARRC race. most of them are legal, too!

[Knestis]

It was alluded to above but I really like the idea of the 'race within a race.' Get each person in your region interested in the idea to pitch in $5/race and award a nice "Street Tire Trophy" to the highest placing car on 200s in each IT class each weekend. Make it more complex as you desire. I understand that Dunlop was very interested in our Devil 12 hour Direzza test with Blethens, so who knows?

K

[raffaelli]

My budget is small, I am in for reducing my biggest expense.....tires.....currently dumping SM6 at 6 cycles.

I would participate in the double dip as a test.

[Blair Deff]

Yes, ITA/B are slim here in NCR, that is very disappointing. Now as far as costing no more to run ITS, with speed comes costs like fuel, brakes and tires. I said ITA/B platforms because most of the cars we like and dream about are in those classes. It would be very fun to play in ITS, probably one of the most heated classes in NCR right now but I think that there are a lot of ITA/B cars sitting in back yards because those guys don't want to mess with the $1000 dollar re-buy in to race. monkeying around with this subject would be just one more effort to get more cars out of retirement and new cars built, which we need sorely.

Now about this Street Tire Challenge, that is an idea to hold onto. Out of the patches discussed so far in this thread that is the easiest to put into action. As a board member on the NCR board of directors I can see that being relatively easy to back up. Mainly because, in theory, you can run one car virtually unchanged in two series on the same weekend, there will be a lot of guys willing to find some junkyard wheels and buy a used set of RS3's or Star Specs or what have you so they can run that series and get it off the ground. Unless I am missing a detail there would be no need for class manipulation, no rules changes nothing. Just another sticker on the car or something to identify it as an STC car and go. Get a region or two on board, get a few tracks on board and if it works out it will expand nearly on its own.

[RSTPerformance]

The conversation is interesting but honestly we just do not know enough about how the tires would perform. What would be great is if somewhere a group of IT competitors would do a gentlemen’s agreement and run a few races on them so we could have some real world comparative data.
I suppose one could even set up a double dip class in a different run group to try it out.

On it...

This weekend at Watkins Glen my brother will be racing in the ITR sprint races (Group 5) on some used Hoosiers. I am not sure the exact # heat cycles on them but they are relatively new, plenty left in them (typical mid to front IT driver tire). I will be running in the ProIT Series on the used Dunlop Direzza ZII from the "12 hour Devil in the Dark". The used set has several heat cycles and at least 6hrs on them from testing at NHMS and NJMP... They even have a nice burnout ;)

Both my brother and I turned nearly identical lap times on the Dunlops at both NHMS and NJMP so I think it would be fair to say we would likely turn the same lap times at Watkins Glen. I think all but maybe 1 of the ITR cars are running both the sprint races and the ProIT. This should be a VERY interesting test not only to compare lap times but also class finishing position... Stay tuned!

Raymond "The Dunlop Guy" Blethen

PS: so far I cannot say enough about these tires... Excellent choice no matter what if you want to come out and play. Easy and predictable tire to race on, they will probably help keep you out of trouble those first couple of years also! The use of "street tires" should not prevent a beginner from coming out. At most you will only be a few seconds back, that puts you right in the mix with the best of the rest in a normal IT field... And that is some of the best racing you will find across the country in any series!

[ner88]

I think this is an interesting topic and am interested as to where it goes.....
But, in the end those that can will figure a way to make them go faster and not care about the cost....Shave them to 1/32 and soak them in Formual V (tire softner)??...who care how many heat cycles????:shrug:

[Blair Deff]

Yes, there will always be R and D and always be someone with more resources. There also will always be cheaters, there will always be someone applying Demon juice to the inside of the tires for more grip. That will happen whether we set a plan like this into motion or not, we can't let that be a reason to stop trying new things. It may not be here yet but I think this is a solid idea worth developing. Step one I think is to spread the word, see what other people think, probe out for possible participation, then maybe we take it to our respective board of directors for further expansion. Progress is the key!

[lateapex911]

I think this is an interesting topic and am interested as to where it goes.....
But, in the end those that can will figure a way to make them go faster and not care about the cost....Shave them to 1/32 and soak them in Formual V (tire softner)??...who care how many heat cycles????:shrug:

I absolutely agree that you can not control costs via rules. But, I think you can control peoples desire to spend through rules. If the extra expense only results in minimal gains, the lack of return on investment will act as a deterrent.

Sure, let folks go crazy and spend a fortune if they want, but in club racing, and especially IT, the 'noise' is greater than the gains. My pat example in IT is the cage rules which effectively control damper spending. leaving the front clip isolated from the cage (and not allowing seam welding, etc) means the chassis is essentially an undamped spring. mega dollar dampers won't bring the returns on the investment, because the chassis isn't well controlled.

I would expect shaving to be standard fare, but the differences in lap times between 1/32 and 3/132 to be minimal. Reports indicate that shaving doesn't gain much, but I'm skeptical.

And even WITH the cost of shaving, the lesser up front cost, the longer life from much greater cycle #s, and the decreased expenses from the constant mount and balances should net significant savings.

People say, "yea, but you can do that now, just use take off Hoosiers". True, but maintaining a set of take offs or two as well as rains as well as "a fast set" so you can actually compete, (we ARE here to race) means you end up with 3 or 4 sets of active wheel/tires, and with it the constant tracking and changing...($$). Go with street tires and you can get away with 2 sets: wet and dry. And they stay on the rims far longer, saving labor $$ and hassle.
Also, part of the idea here is to attract new blood that has no interest in R compounds, but to do that, a bone needs to be thrown. A 200TW line in the sand does that. The trick is what is the bone???

[gran racing]

Chris, do you properly heat cycle your Hoosiers? I'd imagine you could get a couple more cycles. In my FWD car, I'd take the 6 or 8 cycle tires and put them on there rear for several more cycles.


But, I think you can control peoples desire to spend through rules.

I've always liked this notion and efforts towards it. Tires do suck.

[Xian]

yup, pretty common to see 1015 ITB cars and at least as many ITA at any CFR regional or SARRC race. most of them are legal, too!

Wow... talk about an exception to the track density rules. ;)


It was alluded to above but I really like the idea of the 'race within a race.' Get each person in your region interested in the idea to pitch in $5/race and award a nice "Street Tire Trophy" to the highest placing car on 200s in each IT class each weekend. Make it more complex as you desire. I understand that Dunlop was very interested in our Devil 12 hour Direzza test with Blethens, so who knows?

K

I think I mentioned it on the brownboard but not here. The Dunlop appears to do better "pinched" on a narrow wheel than other 200TW options. I mention this as the common thing for the AutoX Solo guys is to run a wheel with roughly the same width as the tire tread. i.e. I've got 205/50 Rival's mounted on 15x8's... 225/45's would also fit on a 15x8 but won't feel/work as well on something like a 15x7. Additionally, in the 15" diameter, the Dunlop is only available in a 205/50 which takes another variable out of the equation (225vs205) and they work better in the rain than the Rival or RS3.

[JLawton]

Jake, thanks again for starting an “official” thread on this topic. I think the discussion has been great!!

I certainly would be willing to take the lead on this in NER and create an ITAS (ITA Street tire). I think besides the SM double dippers it’s a fairly steady group of drivers so I’m sure we can come up with a gentlemen’s agreement. Maybe before each event an e-mail could go out to the other “non-regular” drivers explaining what we are trying to do and what the rules are. I think if you could get the top drivers on board, the rest of the group would join.

Also, wouldn't it dimminish the affects of expensive shocks? (he says in hopes of hanging on to his non adjustable Bilstein's........... :) )

The only issue that might happen is with the SM double dippers. They’re not going to give a shit about this and it may create corner speed differentials that could cause problems? Or maybe we’d get more converts??

What are the costs of the 200 tires and how many cycles do you get out of them?

[webhound]

Also, wouldn't it dimminish the affects of expensive shocks? (he says in hopes of hanging on to his non adjustable Bilstein's........... :) )

The only issue that might happen is with the SM double dippers. They’re not going to give a shit about this and it may create corner speed differentials that could cause problems? Or maybe we’d get more converts??

What are the costs of the 200 tires and how many cycles do you get out of them?

Dunlop ZII is list on Tire Rack for $114 for the 205/50-15. Cycles, guys have reported 30+, basically they wear out before they cycle out. I've found the opposite to be true of the NT01 that was mentioned here before, although that was in mixed track, road, and autox use.

If you guys were at the MoHud PDX this past Friday, you were probably out with me in my light prep ITA Civic. It was on older (age and generation) street tires, the Ecta XS, which iirc isn't 200TW but isn't as fast as the new gen 200TW either. Yes, I was slower than the couple ITA Miatas I saw out there, and slower than Mickey's Civic. But, considering it's prep level, imo I wasn't horribly in the way, either.

This car, in ITC trim and on rcomps, was EASIER to drive. Just mat it and go at LRP. The small amount less grip with the street tires IMO makes it a little more challenging, at least at LRP.

I think a transition, or at least having a legitimate choice of running streets either in a session with other cars on streets, or given a small break to equalize performance a little, would be a very good thing. I'm sure I'm not alone in the lower income club. Further, I seriously hate spending all that money on consumables. At least with R&P, shocks, header, ECU, it's a tangible and I can sell it off if I want to swap out. Event entry, hotel stays and the like, they are very expensive as well, but at least you are trading on the experience. RComps, there really is no tangible ROA, other than a couple tenths of a G.

[StephenB]

FYI,

My brother and I WILL be doing this most likely for 2014 no matter what. We want to race but we want 1 set of tires for the ENTIRE SEASON :)

We have a good relationship with Dunlop and we will try and do our best to answer ANY questions that anyone might have. As most of you know we ran the RX8 at 2950lbs for 12hrs plus the practice session without any issues at all.

The biggest thing that I thought when we decided to do this at the 12hr was that these things would be screeching like crazy and the car would be plowing badly. TOTALLY NOT THE CASE! they honestly felt just like a worn hoosier. Predictable, comfortable to push to the edge, no tire noise, basically just a bit slower. For anyone that says "this is racing, we need R-comps" just give it a try. I would bet that you will have just as much fun driving and if everyone was doing it and you could still win you wouldn't even care one bit!

Jake,
NASA has already set the guildlines on the weight thing. they have figured this out a long time ago, made the tweeks, and continue to use a system they all like. (Check out the PT rules and think of the points as a weight penalty instead) Personally I agree that way to many cars are close to base weight without spending tons on more fabrication to remove more weight. I think a regional class within a class would be more effective, simmilar to how ssm or ssm2 or sm2 or sm? started.

I do wonder how Dan and the IT7 guys feel about this since they are running 150ish TW tires, ya this is kinda a copy of them but taking it another step further...

Great discussion, We will be running 200TW street tires in the PRO-IT this weekend at Watkins Glen. Maybe we are the first ones in this century to do this, but hopefully we are not the last ones! :)

Stephen

[Xian]

Jake, thanks again for starting an “official” thread on this topic. I think the discussion has been great!!

I certainly would be willing to take the lead on this in NER and create an ITAS (ITA Street tire). I think besides the SM double dippers it’s a fairly steady group of drivers so I’m sure we can come up with a gentlemen’s agreement. Maybe before each event an e-mail could go out to the other “non-regular” drivers explaining what we are trying to do and what the rules are. I think if you could get the top drivers on board, the rest of the group would join.

Also, wouldn't it dimminish the affects of expensive shocks? (he says in hopes of hanging on to his non adjustable Bilstein's........... :) )

The only issue that might happen is with the SM double dippers. They’re not going to give a shit about this and it may create corner speed differentials that could cause problems? Or maybe we’d get more converts??

What are the costs of the 200 tires and how many cycles do you get out of them?

Here's a video from Mike (he posted earlier) during his first ever IT Sprint Race. Car is a LeChump MX3... ~2350#, 120-125whp, parts store shocks, ebay coilovers, 15x7 wheels with Dunlop Star Spec 205/50's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nySmPja5pzE

I don't see any speed differentials that that are beyond what is already present on track...

PS
He was at the last Road ATL SCCA weekend as well... ended up finishing 3rd OA in the ITR/ITS/ITA group during mixed conditions.

Edit:
He's gotten the car down into the 1:48's so, although that's a good pace, it's not pointy at the pointy end of the IT field in dry conditions but is smack dab in the mid-pack racing.

[1stgen]

I guess I'm a little confused here, if you want to run street tires and be competitive.....well that's just not gonna happen. Plus I don't see the cost of tires being the game changer here. I run the hankooks in 225/45/15, I have never had a problem getting them. Tire rack has them and Phil's tire service has them...ALL the time. There 700 a set and almost as competitive as the Hoosier and go twice the amount of heat cycles before falling off.
Racing is not cheap, doesn't matter how you do it, but to be honest I have instructed many people who do lemons and chump car, Their eager and aggressive, but want to compete with crappy equipment and the cheapest solution possible. I'm sorry but that doesn't seem to be the creed of the rulebook....
It's kind of like the lowest common denominator thing...do we keep changing something that national already uses against IT to keep it from going national .....like a uniformity across the nation.
Why not start a regional street tire class?

P.S..... poster is an oppinionated dumbass, so feel free to say what you want. It's just my opinion based on the majority of people I've met and their input on it....
Except the tire thing...I do run the hankooks and have for many years. There a little greasy when hot and ice cold, but when at temp a good long lasting slick.
P.S.S. I use the same set of hankooks all year and just rotate them every session.

[webhound]

want to compete with crappy equipment and the cheapest solution possible.....

HEYYY, that rotor button was new....

:):D

[Blair Deff]

I do wonder how Dan and the IT7 guys feel about this since they are running 150ish TW tires, ya this is kinda a copy of them but taking it another step further...

This IT7 guy as well as my camp has been wondering why this discussion didn't happen a long time ago! No one likes to drop a grand on tires every other weekend.

And like I said, there are a lot of guys out there who want to play with a newer car but that would require Hoosiers, which cost too much.

I also maintain that starting a class has a lot of red tape and things to go through that make it a defeating process, I think a Street Tire Challenge would be far easier to get off the ground, pitch it as a series and run it inside a SARRC or something like that. Class creation is not easy and takes a considerable amount of time.

[ner88]

Having raced Miatas for 13+ years, I believe the Toyo RA1 was the best tire.
All the things being talked about can be had in that tire :)

[lateapex911]

Jake, thanks again for starting an “official” thread on this topic. I think the discussion has been great!!

I certainly would be willing to take the lead on this in NER and create an ITAS (ITA Street tire). I think besides the SM double dippers it’s a fairly steady group of drivers so I’m sure we can come up with a gentlemen’s agreement. Maybe before each event an e-mail could go out to the other “non-regular” drivers explaining what we are trying to do and what the rules are. I think if you could get the top drivers on board, the rest of the group would join.

Also, wouldn't it dimminish the affects of expensive shocks? (he says in hopes of hanging on to his non adjustable Bilstein's........... :) )

The only issue that might happen is with the SM double dippers. They’re not going to give a shit about this and it may create corner speed differentials that could cause problems? Or maybe we’d get more converts??

What are the costs of the 200 tires and how many cycles do you get out of them?

Jeff, back in the day, when the RX-7s were in ITA in the NE, they had the "Mazda Cup" where there was a trophy that went to the highest placed RX-7. It was 'perpetual' in that if you won, you kept it until the next event.

I wouldn't lose sleep over the double dippers too much, if you don't mind them 'winning' or running ahead of you. The variance in speed between the classes is already there with Prod cars and IT cars and GTL cars etc.

Isn't there a regional SM class that runs a spec tire and has reeled in rules to some degree? I know Rob Myles (Wreckerboy) has a SM car that he runs with the MARRS guys and the engine was dynoed and sealed, and they've got a special regional class for Sms that has the 'crazy' aspect of the SM rules turned down a bit.

So, there's certainly precedent to forge ahead in new directions if there are enough racers who can agree to take the plunge.

Jeff Young and Mike and Ron Earp have been discussing testing some 200TW tires back to back with R6s on various cars, so they will be able to shed some decent data on your questions regarding the specifics. based on my reading the tires would be about 1-1.5 secs slower at LRP, (ITA/ITS kinda car) but will stay in the sweet spot easily three times as long. (Say 24 cycles vs 8 cycles) THATS where the $$$ savings come in.

(Assuming that the tires cost 75% or so of a set of R6s, the net net means the budget winds up being a fourth of what a racer would normally spend. Assuming you buy in sets, and you pay $700 per set for Streets, and $1000/set for R6s, at 48 cycles, you've spent $1400 on streets, and $6000 on R6s )

Now, that example discounts how most of us have a set of high heat cycled R6s that we use for practice, engine testing brake bedding etc, so that $6000 is probably lower, depending on your program.

Regardless, Streets would simplify things tremendously, eliminating the need for four sets of wheel/tires at each event and the continual swapping and managing of them.

[autoxmike]

Car is a LeChump MX3... ~2350#, 120-125whp, parts store shocks, ebay coilovers, 15x7 wheels with Dunlop Star Spec 205/50's.

He was at the last Road ATL SCCA weekend as well... ended up finishing 3rd OA in the ITR/ITS/ITA group during mixed conditions.

Edit:
He's gotten the car down into the 1:48's so, although that's a good pace, it's not pointy at the pointy end of the IT field in dry conditions but is smack dab in the mid-pack racing.

Test day on May got down to 1:47.1 on 225/15 Rivals, on a reasonably hot day, and without optimizing tire pressures (first run ever on the Rivals). Hoping for high 1:45's with a bit more tweaking, better driving, and cooler temps & faster track that usually happens in November :)

This weekend when running older 1/2 tread Star Specs on a ITX LeChump MX-3 in the ITA/ITS/ITR group it started to rain for the last 4 laps of the 15 lap race. Full tread Star Specs would have been MUCH better, but even the 1/2 tread tires were MUCH better then the Hoosiers than everyone else was on. I was running P7 out of 20 starters when it started to rain and finished P3.

The unfortunate part though is that I counted at least 4 cars that went off and had big damage trying to stay out in the rain. Ask those guys how much running Hoosiers cost them that race? Thinking about it - even if I ran HoHos in a real IT car I'd have a set of new Star Specs mounted up for races like this when it might rain. Not far enough off pace in the dry and if it rains you are safer & faster.

Mike

[Ron Earp]

J
Jeff Young and Mike and Ron Earp have been discussing testing some 200TW tires back to back with R6s on various cars, so they will be able to shed some decent data on your questions regarding the specifics. based on my reading the tires would be about 1-1.5 secs slower at LRP, (ITA/ITS kinda car) but will stay in the sweet spot easily three times as long. (Say 24 cycles vs 8 cycles) THATS where the $$$ savings come in.

1 - 1.5 seconds off the R pace at LRP, where laps are a minute, is going to translate into more of a difference at a place like CMP where lap times are say 1:50s.

I'm probably out for testing. It appears the closest tire I can get for team stang is the 225-45-15. I'd require a rear gear swap and a lot of ride height adjustment to make it anywhere close to comparing what we run now (R6 245-50-15), and even then the 225 has about 0.9 to 1" less footprint (and yes, I know the lore about 225 R6s being big, but we have actual measurements of a loaded tire footprint, not lore).

[Xian]

Having raced Miatas for 13+ years, I believe the Toyo RA1 was the best tire.
All the things being talked about can be had in that tire :)

Having driven and raced on RA-1's, I'll disagree. RA-1's will chunk at full tread*. Additionally, they get quite a bit faster when shaved due to reduced void area. These two things combined results in a *big* advantage to those will to shave and toss tires and even *requires* folks to shave them for dry use.

*Possibly specific to FWD'ers.

[240zdave]

The unfortunate part though is that I counted at least 4 cars that went off and had big damage trying to stay out in the rain. Ask those guys how much running Hoosiers cost them that race? Thinking about it - even if I ran HoHos in a real IT car I'd have a set of new Star Specs mounted up for races like this when it might rain. Not far enough off pace in the dry and if it rains you are safer & faster.

Mike

I was one of the cars on Hoosiers that went off. Fortunately, no damage, but your idea of having a set of Star Specs mounted for races where it is likely to start raining during the race is a good idea. I also would be curious to know how they compare with Hoosier H2O's in the rain.

[autoxmike]

I was one of the cars on Hoosiers that went off. Fortunately, no damage, but your idea of having a set of Star Specs mounted for races where it is likely to start raining during the race is a good idea. I also would be curious to know how they compare with Hoosier H2O's in the rain.

My guess is that the Hoosier H20s would be better in the rain - but maybe not much. Just a guess.

The real question though is how do the Hoosier wets do in the dry? What if you put them on "just in case" and it doesn't rain? Do they get hot and go off quickly? Do you trash an expensive set of rains in one dry race?
The Dunlops are perfectly happy and fast at full tread depth, and even with a 5 or 10 sprint races they will look & perform as new and still be decent rain tires.

FWIW - The Star Specs that beat up on the HoHos in the rain had 20+ W2W race hours on them when it rained.

[webhound]

Having driven and raced on RA-1's, I'll disagree. RA-1's will chunk at full tread*. Additionally, they get quite a bit faster when shaved due to reduced void area. These two things combined results in a *big* advantage to those will to shave and toss tires and even *requires* folks to shave them for dry use.

*Possibly specific to FWD'ers.

Also, if the RA-1 is same/similar in compound to the NT01, which is what the theory is, they will cycle out way earlier than a street tire.

[seckerich]

I'm curious how you deal with it when Hoosier builds a 200tw tire? Similar compound to the GA continental tire.

[autoxmike]

I was one of the cars on Hoosiers that went off. Fortunately, no damage, but your idea of having a set of Star Specs mounted for races where it is likely to start raining during the race is a good idea. I also would be curious to know how they compare with Hoosier H2O's in the rain.

I can see it now. The HoHo guys are going to need another set of tires. HoHo wets when it will rain for sure, and Dunlop Steets when it might rain. :)

[240zdave]

The real question though is how do the Hoosier wets do in the dry? What if you put them on "just in case" and it doesn't rain? Do they get hot and go off quickly? Do you trash an expensive set of rains in one dry race?
The Dunlops are perfectly happy and fast at full tread depth, and even with a 5 or 10 sprint races they will look & perform as new and still be decent rain tires.

My understanding is that the H2O's will not do well in the dry. I don't know if they will chunk or not, but after a session in the dry, one will need to buy a new set for the next rain race.

[autoxmike]

I'm curious how you deal with it when Hoosier builds a 200tw tire? Similar compound to the GA continental tire.

If someone like Hoosier does make such a tire that then the 200TW idea has gone over pretty damn well with the racers. A good problem to have IMHO.

The answer is to make sure the "Powers That Be" have the ability to ban (or catagorize as a race tire) any 200TW tire that breaks the mold & negates the cheap tire idea, then has the balls to put a tire like that on the list. This would apply to tires that really aren't 200TW but marked as such, wear out to fast, heat cycle too quickly, or benefit too much from shaving.

[240zdave]

I can see it now. The HoHo guys are going to need another set of tires. HoHo wets when it will rain for sure, and Dunlop Steets when it might rain. :)

I'm going to need a separate trailer just for tires. :blink:

[Xian]

I'm curious how you deal with it when Hoosier builds a 200tw tire? Similar compound to the GA continental tire.

If they last like the rest of the 200TW tires, who cares if there's another competing manufacturer? If they make something that's NOT REALLY a 200TW tire because it heat cycles out or is crazy fast shaved then you do what the Solo/AutoX people do... stuff them on an exclusion list. :shrug:


My understanding is that the H2O's will not do well in the dry. I don't know if they will chunk or not, but after a session in the dry, one will need to buy a new set for the next rain race.

I'd be pretty surprised if the 200TW options are as fast as the H20. The Hoosier has at least as good of a compound (almost certainly better, IMO) and way more void area. The 200TW options are better than a slick and as good/better than something like a partial tread RA-1 but if they were purpose built rain tires they'd probably chunk at full tread... which they don't.

Edit:
Mike posted additional details while I was typing... but, yeah. What he said.

[webhound]

Good point. No real answer other than if they do make such a tire that then the 200TW idea has gone over pretty damn well with the racers. A good problem to have IMHO

1. Make an exclusion list. Use it. Or use an inclusion list and put at least a handful of the current crop on there.
2. I'd have to dig around a lot for some posts from some guys that know how these ratings work, but iirc the rating can be gamed a little, but they won't label a 40tw tire with 200tw. They also won't risk selling a tire that's sort of aimed at consumer-ish use to an actual consumer. IE, just take your R6 the way it is now, and rebrand it as a 200TW street tire. The liability is too great for them just to compete in the small market of IT racers.
3. So, if they build a legit 200TW tire that can go on a street car and not be in the ditch when it threatens rain, good for the sport. It would suck if it were $220, just like the current rcomp, but even so, it would at least last longer.

[lateapex911]

1. Make an exclusion list. Use it. Or use an inclusion list and put at least a handful of the current crop on there.
2. I'd have to dig around a lot for some posts from some guys that know how these ratings work, but iirc the rating can be gamed a little, but they won't label a 40tw tire with 200tw. They also won't risk selling a tire that's sort of aimed at consumer-ish use to an actual consumer. IE, just take your R6 the way it is now, and rebrand it as a 200TW street tire. The liability is too great for them just to compete in the small market of IT racers.
3. So, if they build a legit 200TW tire that can go on a street car and not be in the ditch when it threatens rain, good for the sport. It would suck if it were $220, just like the current rcomp, but even so, it would at least last longer.

IF it were legit, Then people wouldn't buy it, because it was equivalent to other cheaper choices. Now if it was more competitive, wink wink, yea, a benevolent dictator has to strike quick.

My understanding is that there is some room to wiggle the TW rating, but not much. Hoosier would be a concern, because their tires don't last long, so a long lasting time to them means something different to a full lineup company like Dunlop.

Its a concern, but, this isn't the crazy Showroom Stock days of the mid to late 80s, when major tire companies were using SCCA for advertising and marketing. Remember, this is IT, the redheaded stepchild of SCCA.

[JeffYoung]

Yes, you can trash a set of HoHo H20s in the dry. Badly.

Which is why when it rains, it's kidn of a dance in IT. R6s are good on a dry or drying track, or in a light mist. Wets need sanding water. No real intermediate choice between the two so you are liteally making your tire choice just before you roll to the grid.

[Xian]

That's where the street stuff shines in my experience... I drove around a ton of slip-sliding IT cars at the ARRC Enduro last year. It started misting and then raining while everyone was on grid. We were on old Star Specs (14 hours at CMP+ the ARRC test day, sprint, and Pro-IT). I think I picked up like 6 or so spots in my stint? And that was after losing 3-4 due to a tentative start (it wasn't my car, it was RA, and raining).

[autoxmike]

Yes, you can trash a set of HoHo H20s in the dry. Badly.

Which is why when it rains, it's kidn of a dance in IT. R6s are good on a dry or drying track, or in a light mist. Wets need sanding water. No real intermediate choice between the two so you are liteally making your tire choice just before you roll to the grid.

Conditions like those in Sunday's race (dry track at the start - rain on the way) are perfect for Dunlops. Lets say 2 seconds (maybe less if on wider wheels) off pace but when/if the rain starts WAY faster then race rubber. And if it doesn't rain you haven't trashed a set of expensive rains.

Raining at the start = Hoosier wets.

[autoxmike]

That's where the street stuff shines in my experience... I drove around a ton of slip-sliding IT cars at the ARRC Enduro last year. It started misting and then raining while everyone was on grid. We were on old Star Specs (14 hours at CMP+ the ARRC test day, sprint, and Pro-IT). I think I picked up like 6 or so spots in my stint? And that was after losing 3-4 due to a tentative start (it wasn't my car, it was RA, and raining).

Yup. And if we would have been on reasonably new instead of almost worn out Star Specs you would have picked up way more than that. Great risk/reward tire in conditions where it might rain, or raining but the track may dry during the race

[autoxmike]

It would be ironic if the result of this discussion is that IT guys that run Hoosiers need to have another set of tires in the trailer - and they are the same 200TW tires that do many are resisting. :)

[lateapex911]

It would be ironic if the result of this discussion is that IT guys that run Hoosiers need to have another set of tires in the trailer - and they are the same 200TW tires that do many are resisting. :)

I always had 4 sets: Low heat cycle R6s, A set of low heat cycle A6s for qualies and cold damp tracks that weren't really wet, a set of R6s that were high heat cycled for practice etc, and a set of Hoosier Dirt Stockers, teh all time king of IT rain tires.

BUT, if I was REALLY prepared, I'd have had a set of Inters. Ideally they would be A compounds with medium groves, but, nobody makes those, so the next best thing was a good street tire.

But MOST of the time, it's either getting wetter, or getting dryer, and you need to plan accordingly. Rare is the race where you just don't know. (Although I guessed wrong badly once, I've been right far more often and the results followed)

BUT, eliminate the whole R and A thing, and at BEST you have three sets: Full tread, (wets), some tread, (inters) and barely treads (drys).
You could 'get by" with two sets easy

[raffaelli]

No real intermediate choice between the two so you are liteally making your tire choice just before you roll to the grid.

Which is very frustrating......last minute hectic scramble for tires, sways snd shocks......right before you need to be claim and focused.

[Xian]

I always had 4 sets: Low heat cycle R6s, A set of low heat cycle A6s for qualies and cold damp tracks that weren't really wet, a set of R6s that were high heat cycled for practice etc, and a set of Hoosier Dirt Stockers, teh all time king of IT rain tires.

BUT, if I was REALLY prepared, I'd have had a set of Inters. Ideally they would be A compounds with medium groves, but, nobody makes those, so the next best thing was a good street tire.

But MOST of the time, it's either getting wetter, or getting dryer, and you need to plan accordingly. Rare is the race where you just don't know. (Although I guessed wrong badly once, I've been right far more often and the results followed)

BUT, eliminate the whole R and A thing, and at BEST you have three sets: Full tread, (wets), some tread, (inters) and barely treads (drys).
You could 'get by" with two sets easy

Yup... and you wouldn't have to worry about bagging them, dragging them around forever, and never (or rarely) using them. When the current set of "dry" street tires is toast, switch to your current "rain" tires, and buy a new set of tires as the new "rains".

[Ron Earp]

Yup... and you wouldn't have to worry about bagging them, dragging them around forever, and never (or rarely) using them. When the current set of "dry" street tires is toast, switch to your current "rain" tires, and buy a new set of tires as the new "rains".

Man, these things sound so good I bet they'll blow me and cook dinner! Sign me up.

[autoxmike]

Yes, you can trash a set of HoHo H20s in the dry. Badly.

Which is why when it rains, it's kidn of a dance in IT. R6s are good on a dry or drying track, or in a light mist. Wets need sanding water. No real intermediate choice between the two so you are liteally making your tire choice just before you roll to the grid.

If I were a (serious) IT racer I would have a set of Dunlop ZIIs (if available in a good size for my car) on the trailer as intermediates. Not that far off in the dry or wet, can be used a bunch, and pretty inexpensive.

[autoxmike]

Man, these things sound so good I bet they'll blow me and cook dinner! Sign me up.

That do for me :happy204:

Plus more I can't go into here...

[joeg]

Best "intermediates" are not street rubber.

Kumho Victor Racers (full tread) were excellent as were full tread Toyo Proxes.

Now I suspect a shaved H2O Wet would be a great inter, but that is silly and expensive.

I don't bother dragging all that rubber to the track any more. If rain is forecast, just a Hoosier Wet in addition to the R6(s).

[Xian]

Man, these things sound so good I bet they'll blow me and cook dinner! Sign me up.

Nah... that's just Mike. He's picked up some curious habits from those LeChump guys. :blink:

Seriously though, they (all the newer 200TW stuff) are pretty amazing. It used to be that they'd get greasy after ~10 minutes of hard driving and there'd be a big fall-off. Now, I can get them to fade away but it takes work. 10/10th's abuse on an overweight, under-tired, street car, on a hot day... and after the tires already had heat pumped into them during earlier sessions (core temp way up).

Edit:
Speaking of the Victoracers... remember their treadpattern? See any similarities? ;)

http://www.discounttiredirect.com/product/tires/kumhz2.ang.jpg

http://blog.365racing.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/IMG_20130122_154017_834.jpg

[RSTPerformance]

So it was mentioned but how do we make it happen??? Lots of people have discussed affordable ways to get new members in and/or keep costs down... With the success of all the SM classes here in the Northeast we know multiple classing works. Why not make another run group for IT cars on street tires? ITRS, ITSS, ITAS, ITBS, and ITCS... I would even add in an SMS. Double dip discount entry for the car (not the driver) to help allow a team to share one car and help prevent people from just changing over from one class to the other (let's not ruin regular IT counts).

Additionally entry for the first year of new membership in the Street Tire class could be cut in half to help get us more addicts! All street tire classes could run together until we reach 40+ car counts. At that point eliminate SMS and/or look at adding some classes to other groups (ITAS & ITCS could run with ITR/ITS/ITB).

I don't think that we will gain much participation having a race within a race. We really need to make an affordable opportunity to double dip for IT drivers/teams and we need to go back to making some sort of IT option for newbies to start at an affordable cost.

Some might not agree with my partial focus on team cars (afterall my brother and I share cars on e in a while) but Lemons and Chump are partially successful because people share cars. I also can walk around the track and name several shared cars where one person races one week and another on another weekend.

Raymond "lets make something happen" Blethen

[seckerich]

How about they all run in ITX on street tires and we give any IT class cars in the group a trophy if they have 3 or more? Not interested in helping drain IT numbers off, but willing to get new drivers in the club.

[Ron Earp]

How about they all run in ITX on street tires and we give any IT class cars in the group a trophy if they have 3 or more? Not interested in helping drain IT numbers off, but willing to get new drivers in the club.

This makes sense.


S
Additionally entry for the first year of new membership in the Street Tire class could be cut in half to help get us more addicts! All street tire classes could run together until we reach 40+ car counts.

This doesn't. So we're promoting IT-street over normal IT, so much so that people running in the street tire IT get half off entries? If that is the way the SCCA wants to roll then fine, but bear in mind on these forums we're not getting a complete picture of IT-racers because many current IT-racers don't read here.

I think Steve's idea is the way to get it done. They run in IT just like normal because IT does not require any changes at all for a street tired IT cars to run in IT. They get a few street tire cars together for a race in a race and they get a trophy. Maybe street tire entries grow, maybe they don't, time will tell.

[Xian]

Yeah, I'd say to have them run concurrently with IT and have a "double dip, catch-all" class in another run group. This would allow both the street and race tired IT cars another racing option during the weekend (although IT cars seem to double dip less). i.e. Run ITAS in Group 1, run ITX in Group 2, run ITX for the ECR, etc.

[seckerich]

ITX was moved to group 4 for Charlotte, and IT is in group 2. Done.

Now vote with your entries, that is how this all works.

[autoxmike]

This makes sense.



This doesn't. So we're promoting IT-street over normal IT, so much so that people running in the street tire IT get half off entries? If that is the way the SCCA wants to roll then fine, but bear in mind on these forums we're not getting a complete picture of IT-racers because many current IT-racers don't read here.

I think Steve's idea is the way to get it done. They run in IT just like normal because IT does not require any changes at all for a street tired IT cars to run in IT. They get a few street tire cars together for a race in a race and they get a trophy. Maybe street tire entries grow, maybe they don't, time will tell.

All great ideas!! I like both of them. For the participant the 1/2 off sounds great but agree that this is probably too drastic. Maybe just the whateever the "normal" multirace discount is? Having only done 3 club race weekends so far in my LeChump MX-3 all of this is still pretty new to me, but the multirace discount that I've seen here in the Atlanta region is pretty good incentive to grab a buddy and throw him/her in the car for the "ST" race, wether it be ITX-Street or ITAS, ITBS, ITCS, etc, etc.

Combine this with easier licensing with some sort of "credit" from LeChump experience (which the SEDIv does quite well IMHO), and we may just see existing IT cars double dip more on street tires, wether that be the same driver getting mroe seat time or getting crew & LeChumpers started in club racing.


For example, this weekend another of our LeChump drivers did his first club race after 15+ LeChump races. I drove one race, he did another, and we split the enduro. We had another newly licensed team memeber that wanted to drive as well but we ran out of races. With this sort of format a 3 person LeChump team could all do a weekend of sprint races.

Intersting data point: We will soon have 6 or 7 guys on our LeChump team that will have Comp licenses. I am working with another Atlanta area team that wants to get 4 drivers licensed and come out sprint racing. So that is 10 - 11 new drivers in the Altanta area that started in LeChump and want to come out sprint racing. I wouldn't be shocked if that number grows to 20+ by next year.

[Ron Earp]

ITX was moved to group 4 for Charlotte, and IT is in group 2. Done.

Now vote with your entries, that is how this all works.

Steve has really thrown you guys a bone here and if you want to make this street tire thing fly now is the time. If you're new to the SCCA you won't realize that this wouldn't happen in many SCCA regions at all on such a short notice.

CMS is a fun track, the region puts on a great race, and there is tons of track time with the sprints, ECR, and Cup race. Take advantage of it and get out in numbers, otherwise you'll miss a prime opportunity for LeChump in SCCA. You should be posting this on LeChump boards and getting that vocal Lizard guy involved.



Intersting data point: We will soon have 6 or 7 guys on our LeChump team that will have Comp licenses. I am working with another Atlanta area team that wants to get 4 drivers licensed and come out sprint racing. So that is 10 - 11 new drivers in the Altanta area that started in LeChump and want to come out sprint racing. I wouldn't be shocked if that number grows to 20+ by next year.

You need to get them to CMS in four weeks.

[autoxmike]

This makes sense.



This doesn't. So we're promoting IT-street over normal IT, so much so that people running in the street tire IT get half off entries? If that is the way the SCCA wants to roll then fine, but bear in mind on these forums we're not getting a complete picture of IT-racers because many current IT-racers don't read here.

I think Steve's idea is the way to get it done. They run in IT just like normal because IT does not require any changes at all for a street tired IT cars to run in IT. They get a few street tire cars together for a race in a race and they get a trophy. Maybe street tire entries grow, maybe they don't, time will tell.


ITX was moved to group 4 for Charlotte, and IT is in group 2. Done.

Now vote with your entries, that is how this all works.

I'll be recovering from knee surgery and my car will be be recovering from surgery of it's own. I'll get up there if there is any way I can to help support this.

It may take time to get today's IT guys to get a set of streets & give it a try. If my car is not ready I may show up with a couple sets of wheels & tires and see who wants to double dip. I have a set of 205/15 Dunlops on 4x100 and 225/15 Rivals on 4x100. If I briong them up is anyone interesting in double dipping??

[autoxmike]

Steve has really thrown you guys a bone here and if you want to make this street tire thing fly now is the time. If you're new to the SCCA you won't realize that this wouldn't happen in many SCCA regions at all on such a short notice.

CMS is a fun track, the region puts on a great race, and there is tons of track time with the sprints, ECR, and Cup race. Take advantage of it and get out in numbers, otherwise you'll miss a prime opportunity for LeChump in SCCA. You should be posting this on LeChump boards and getting that vocal Lizard guy involved.



You need to get them to CMS in four weeks.

Agree - great opportunity. It may be tight to get LeChump cars log booked and drivers licensed in time. Our LeMons team has figured out the licensing thing in SEDiv so if anyone is interested I can give you the recipe on how get a comp license based on LeChump experience. We have been able to go from nothing to licensed in as little as a week.

Of course it will be up to the LeChump teams to either round up rides in existing IT cars or get their own cars logbooked.

[autoxmike]

[B][U]


You need to get them to CMS in four weeks.

Let me see what I can do. My car may not be ready by then as we decided it was time for a refresh after 10,000 miles of W2W action in the past 24 months. It is a bit rough now to take out to a club race weekend.

[autoxmike]

ITX was moved to group 4 for Charlotte, and IT is in group 2. Done.

Now vote with your entries, that is how this all works.

Steve,

Can you start a thread on the Sandbox on this? There are quite a few LeChump teams local to the area there. I can then offer helpin getting drivers licensed. That gives a few weeks for IT drivers to find street tires and LeChump guys to get log books and Comp licenses....

Time frame is short but let's see if participationc an be arranged in a few weeks...

[Ron Earp]

Agree - great opportunity. It may be tight to get LeChump cars log booked and drivers licensed in time

I can't speak for tech and I'm not one, but I know two of the techs in the region (Steve E is one of them) and I know they will absolutely do anything needed to get you on track. That doesn't mean you get a pass for illegal safety stuff, but time isn't an issue - they've helped all of us racers tech cars 30 mins before grid if needed.


Steve,

Can you start a thread on the Sandbox on this? There are quite a few LeChump teams local to the area there. I can then offer helpin getting drivers licensed. That gives a few weeks for IT drivers to find street tires and LeChump guys to get log books and Comp licenses....

Time frame is short but let's see if participationc an be arranged in a few weeks...

YOU should start a thread on it. You're the vocal spearhead now, get out there on the soapbox. Steve's given you the information, spread the word.

[autoxmike]

I can't speak for tech and I'm not one, but I know two of the techs in the region (Steve E is one of them) and I know they will absolutely do anything needed to get you on track. That doesn't mean you get a pass for illegal safety stuff, but time isn't an issue - they've helped all of us racers tech cars 30 mins before grid if needed.



YOU should start a thread on it. You're the vocal spearhead now, get out there on the soapbox. Steve's given you the information, spread the word.

Yes I can start a thread - It's just that I'm not that familair with the run order than is normally done, what the exact changes are, etc, etc. I'm still on the steep part of the learning curve about club race weekends, schedules, administration, etc, etc. and don't want to misstate the changes that Steve has made to the schedule. Such as what cars are currently group 4 cars that ITX will run with, etc. I'd be happy to post the ins & outs of the race weekend schedule but I don't know/understrand it all yet.

[Xian]

Hi Mike,

Sounds to me like ITX was set to run in Group 2 (with IT) and is now in Group 4. This will let the IT-street tire group run in both groups if they want to... double dippers welcomed. :)

[autoxmike]

Yes I can start a thread - It's just that I'm not that familair with the run order than is normally done, what the exact changes are, etc, etc. I'm still on the steep part of the learning curve about club race weekends, schedules, administration, etc, etc. and don't want to misstate the changes that Steve has made to the schedule. Such as what cars are currently group 4 cars that ITX will run with, etc. I'd be happy to post the ins & outs of the race weekend schedule but I don't know/understrand it all yet.

Im trying to find info on the race. What region is sponsoring it? Is it the weekend of Aug 17 & 18?


Hi Mike,

Sounds to me like ITX was set to run in Group 2 (with IT) and is now in Group 4. This will let the IT-street tire group run in both groups if they want to... double dippers welcomed. :)

Much better change the car & can be recovered if it is Aug 17th. Are you interested if it happens?

[Xian]

Only "tricky" thing for your car is that it's not IT legal... you'll still only have ITX to run in. Unless there's an "ITJ" class running with IT?

PS
Probably wouldn't be able to make it that far for the weekend anyway. :(

[lateapex911]

BTW ive only run once with Steves region and man do those guys fit in a lot of tracktime!!
Steve tries to please every one possible. Great events!!!

[Chip42]

I was already planning to get up to CMS to help at tech, but not to race. now that there's a good double-dip option for an ITB car (STL is not) I'll talk to the other TrackSpeed guys today, see if there's interest in splitting one or 2 of the cars in ITB/ITX on streets. plus the ECR or CCPS or ProIT or whatever is the long race. We might well be interested in this, and if so then Mike, we might be interested in borrowing a set of 205's for the X and "enduro" races. I was planning on buying some rivals anyhow, might just do that.

[RSTPerformance]

I got lost quick... Might be the heat and our long tow to Watkins Glen! What is ITX? A catch all for all IT cars with street tires?

Raymond

[Chip42]

I got lost quick... Might be the heat and our long tow to Watkins Glen! What is ITX? A catch all for all IT cars with street tires?

Raymond

roughly equivalent to ITE - allows IT safety compliant cars that don't otherwise fit a class. so NASA spec classes, LeChumps, double dipping or modified IT cars, whatever.

run the IT race in class, run the ITX race to double dip, run the long race, too. up to 1h45m of RACE time total if you just do 1 day, and that's assuming a 45 min "long race". I'm not 100% sure of the format, Charlotte has a funny schedule due to the no race engines before noon on sundays rule.

[autoxmike]

Only "tricky" thing for your car is that it's not IT legal... you'll still only have ITX to run in. Unless there's an "ITJ" class running with IT?

PS
Probably wouldn't be able to make it that far for the weekend anyway. :(

Do they run an ITE class as part of the IT races? If so than can a LeChump run ITE with the IT groups & ITX with group 4?

[autoxmike]

I was already planning to get up to CMS to help at tech, but not to race. now that there's a good double-dip option for an ITB car (STL is not) I'll talk to the other TrackSpeed guys today, see if there's interest in splitting one or 2 of the cars in ITB/ITX on streets. plus the ECR or CCPS or ProIT or whatever is the long race. We might well be interested in this, and if so then Mike, we might be interested in borrowing a set of 205's for the X and "enduro" races. I was planning on buying some rivals anyhow, might just do that.

Let's keep in touch. I'd love to bring my car if it works out. I may have 3 sets of streets mounted up - all 15x7 or 15x8, 4x100. Either way I'll do my best to get up there with a few sets of tires. It will be a good time meeting you and some of the other guys I've only met on the InterToobz

[Chip42]

Let's keep in touch. I'd love to bring my car if it works out. I may have 3 sets of streets mounted up - all 15x7 or 15x8, 4x100. Either way I'll do my best to get up there with a few sets of tires. It will be a good time meeting you and some of the other guys I've only met on the InterToobz

Mike, I plan to be there still but it's not looking good for me to drive. first, I'm in ITB and ITX is in the same run group, so no double dipping for me in the sprints. second, my would be co-driver is much more interested in the SIC and already has plans to attend the labor day weekend race at Barber, which should suit his car well, meaning he's tapped out at that time. third, my car hasn't been fully reassembled after a wreck in feb, it's close, but with basically 3 weekends and the rest of "life" it's not looking promising, and if I do get it done, it will have no testing. 4th, I'm kinda broke. especially without my codriver, that's a big towing cost for a guy in orlando.

but I still think it's great what the CCR is doing, and will be there to help out in Tech.

[autoxmike]

Mike, I plan to be there still but it's not looking good for me to drive. first, I'm in ITB and ITX is in the same run group, so no double dipping for me in the sprints. second, my would be co-driver is much more interested in the SIC and already has plans to attend the labor day weekend race at Barber, which should suit his car well, meaning he's tapped out at that time. third, my car hasn't been fully reassembled after a wreck in feb, it's close, but with basically 3 weekends and the rest of "life" it's not looking promising, and if I do get it done, it will have no testing. 4th, I'm kinda broke. especially without my codriver, that's a big towing cost for a guy in orlando.

but I still think it's great what the CCR is doing, and will be there to help out in Tech.

Understand completely. Ill plan to be there if anyone want to try street tires and mine will fit - I'll quite happily lend them out to any IT car that wants to try streets in ITX.

I may bring my car but budget may get in the way too. I've already budgeted out the rest of this years schedule which includes a 14 hour & a 15 hours race, so would have to steal $$ from things like my two college going kids. Or food for me which would not be a bad thing...

On a side note - ran into the head guy of a local LeMons team today that runs an Integra. I ran the idea of running SCCA Sprint races by him and his eyes got big. They switched to the Integra this year with the thought of finding a place to go sprint racing - probably NASA. I'll be sending him info on how to get his drivers SCCA comp licenses so maybe next year they will come out and play.

[seckerich]

ITX is a catch all to some extent, but intended to give PCA, BMW, and other spec series a place where they can run in SCCA. Keep in mind that group 4 at CMS has everything from ITB to SPU and cars need to fit in that speed and weight range. We are giving you a chance to run your "similar to IT" cars in a class so you get to see if you like sprint racing. We will not stick some high powered camero, etc in with this group and screw up their racing, so use some judgement. Entries seen as outside IT parameters will be rejected. ITX will be required to run DOT tires. No slicks.

As Chip mentioned it also gives you a place to double dip all IT classes. Some drivers are coming from a long distance away and are sharing the car to cut expenses. You are our customers and we will work with you as much as we can.

[RSTPerformance]

ITX is a catch all to some extent, but intended to give PCA, BMW, and other spec series a place where they can run in SCCA. Keep in mind that group 4 at CMS has everything from ITB to SPU and cars need to fit in that speed and weight range. We are giving you a chance to run your "similar to IT" cars in a class so you get to see if you like sprint racing. We will not stick some high powered camero, etc in with this group and screw up their racing, so use some judgement. Entries seen as outside IT parameters will be rejected. ITX will be required to run DOT tires. No slicks.

As Chip mentioned it also gives you a place to double dip all IT classes. Some drivers are coming from a long distance away and are sharing the car to cut expenses. You are our customers and we will work with you as much as we can.

Ok, Thanks for the info. It's great you guys are doing that for your region and I love the fact that people can bring IT "like" cars and all run together!

Back on topic though... Street Tires in IT! I was not on my game today so the lap times from qualifying don't come close to a comparison with my brother IMO. However I can say that yes, the street tires are a blast to run on and are safe/easy to drive. I can also say in sprint racing format a street tire will never compete with an r compound tire. I personally think at this point if you really want street tire races (fully support te idea) you need to have some structured classes for people to run in. You will never get people off that purple crack... It is very hard for me to resist the temptation tonight but I really want to give the tires am honest shot in a race and it is a great equalizer against my dads ITS Porsche ( we qualified .03 from each other!).

Will report back tomorrow night!

Raymond

[RSTPerformance]

Ok... Today was a much better test of used race tires vs street tires on a heavy (3,000lb) ITR car. On the street tires (Dunlop Direzza ZII) I got down to a 2:18.2. Stephen ran a few hours later and got down to a 2:15.4 on Hoosiers.

I will say that at the 1.18's I did quickly overheat the tires causing the car to get very loose. Ended up spinning in the carosel (after the bus stop full speed) That left several feet of black rubber on the pavement as smoke quickly filled the air... When I pulled away I expected some major thud thud thud noises from flat spotted tires but much to my surprise nothing... The tires continued to perform as if nothing happened in acceleration, turning and braking. So yet another reason the tires can be a good thing: you can mess up badly and still not destroy these tires!

I finished 10th overall in a 30 mixed car field (even with a spin) and had a blast doing it. In the regional (non ProIT) I would have probably finished mid/back pack. However, I (and you) would not have a chance at fighting for a sprint race win on them. Because of that, most people will only last so long doing "what if" before they get r compound tires.

I still really think to be successfull we need to set up a seperate race group for double dipping on street tires... It worked with SM and while it might not work for all IT classes it would be a good intro race group for those getting into SCCA, those racing on a budget, or those teams with multiple drivers sharing a car.

Raymond

[Knestis]

I personally think it doesn't have anything to do with the question of "street tires in IT" but I'm curious about the differential you saw between the Dunlops and Hoosiers on the same day - accepting of course that on any given day one bro or the other might be more "on."

K

[RSTPerformance]

I personally think it doesn't have anything to do with the question of "street tires in IT" but I'm curious about the differential you saw between the Dunlops and Hoosiers on the same day - accepting of course that on any given day one bro or the other might be more "on."

K

Kirk-

I think we were both "on" yesterday... I do not think Stephen would have been faster than I was if he was running on the Dunlop’s and I don't think that I would have been faster than him if I were on the Hoosiers. Stephen turned his personal best lap times I think. He was NOT on brand new Hoosiers so a little more might be gained for a session or two if you went out and purchased new tires. I also wasn't on brand new Dunlop’s either but I really don't think that would gain me anything if I was, from what we have found the tires perform the same no matter how many heat cycles or time on them (that is one of the best parts about the tires!)

My fast times on the Dunlop’s were when I was chasing down the 9th overall car (I really wanted that position). After two consecutive 2:18's the car became very loose and I ended up spinning. After continuing the car was still loose for a few turns so I backed off a little and took it easy for the rest of that lap (almost felt like a tire going down). After getting my confidence back and letting the tires cool down I was able to get right back to race speed and hold on to the 10th overall position. Comparing this to the Devil, the times were similar to our team’s fast laps (faster than most of the SM cars). I think for our set-up I should be able to run consistent 2:19’s without overworking the tires (I would probably run 2:16’s with the “r” compound).

I think everyone’s estimate of 2 – 3 seconds a lap slower is a good estimate. Heavier cars and those with more horsepower will probably see the biggest drop in lap times and obviously the longer the track the further off “per lap” your pace will be (remember at the glen we are talking average IT lap times around 2:20 or so...). Also the tracks and cars that demand carrying more speed through the turns (like the Glen) might see a bigger loss as well.

To me, I love the tires and will likely always race a “real” enduro on them (It just doesn’t make sense not to). For races short enough where you can run an “r” compound without doing a tire swap it will be hard for people to resist the temptation of the faster tire… unless they don’t have the budget for tires and don’t have access to any used ones. The street tire is just as much fun to race on but I think it would be nearly impossible to get everyone to change over without a rule (kudo’s to the IT7 crowd up here in the Northeast!). Unfortunately I think that making a tire rule for IT would hurt our class as some of the higher end teams/drivers that “raise the bar” would IMO likely look elsewhere to race.

Raymond

PS: The Glen isn’t our home track so we could be faster with more time but I am confident in all of the data as it is based on two experienced drivers both with experience at the track (Average of 1-2 races per year at the track). I would say that for the average front runner the data is spot on.

[pfcs]

Don't forget that the car is (or should have been) optimized for a much stickier tire.
Certainly there are some gains to be had from setting the car up for the 200 tires.

It's too bad we can't turn the clock back in IT including going to the 200 TW tires.
Unfortunately there's too much to unwind. In 1984 the ITB lap record at Limerock was 1:07! and the Rabbit that did it was reputedly illegal and I was on used 944 street takeoffs trying to hang on and not get lapped-but I was having fun! That winter I "actually" prepped the car and put some real race rate springs and shocks on, alignment, corner weight, and converted to 142"E" spec with fuel injection. I remember running the 1st iteration Yokohama 008 tires on the Volvo with rubber bushings everywhere that season. I ran 12 races on 5 008s and set lap records the last 2 races. I drove everywhere on the tires too!
I don't see how the class can be "re-invented" but it sure would be great if it could.
It's almost like there needs to be a clean sheet of paper and a new set of classes, but that would be a bad plan.
I hate to say it because I treasure my years with SCCA, but some of these other series rhyme with Improved Touring as it existed in the beginning. Tires have come so far that I felt it necessary to magna flux the Volvo and A2 steering knuckles in the off-season lest one fail on track.
You know, the first time I raced the Volvo, we threw a MGB roll-bar in it to run an EMRA night relay race at Pocono. I knew something was wrong when I had more fun in my street car on 165x15 Contis than driving a well prepared FP Sprite! Fun is Fun no matter what the speed!

[Knestis]

That's good info, Raymond. Thanks!
K

[Ron Earp]

Approximately three seconds to the Ho Hos over 200TW street tires, old ho hos at that, is a huge margin. And it could even be more with new ho hos. Sort of pops that "200TW are almost as good as ho ho" balloon.

I believe we'll be getting some more data from Jeff Young at CMS; one driver, one car. He's got some new 200TW tires coming that he'll run against his normal purple crack. CMS isn't a handling course, so if there is a difference between the tires at CMS then we'll be reasonably sure the difference is real and not a testing artifact.

[autoxmike]

Approximately three seconds to the Ho Hos over 200TW street tires, old ho hos at that, is a huge margin. And it could even be more with new ho hos. Sort of pops that "200TW are almost as good as ho ho" balloon.

I believe we'll be getting some more data from Jeff Young at CMS; one driver, one car. He's got some new 200TW tires coming that he'll run against his normal purple crack. CMS isn't a handling course, so if there is a difference between the tires at CMS then we'll be reasonably sure the difference is real and not a testing artifact.

Intersting. Three seconds on a 2 minute-ish course is alot. I wonder if the Rivals would be closer? I pciked up over 1 second at Road Atlanta going from 205/15 Dunlop ZIIs to 225/15 Rivals, and did a stint at Daytona where I started on the Dunlops and changed tires to the Rivals mid stint. In this case the Rivals were 1.5 seconds faster on a 2:27-ish lap.

I wonder if the difference would be less on a lighter car? My MX-3 is ~2350 with me in the seat.

I'd love to try a set of HoHos on my LeChump MX-3 as it is running 1:47.2 at RA in the heat on the Rivals which was about 2.5 seconds off of the fast Spec Miata guys that weekend.

[lateapex911]

Differences will be less on lighter low hp cars. Think about it: At Lime Rock, ITC and ITB cars are often flat from the left hander all the way thru the uphill, thru westbend and even down the downhill. They have cornering capability to spare. Even a lesser compound tire could be flat and lap times would barely be affected. An ITS car though, has to brake or lift at all those turns, and will have to even more on lesser tires.

Thats why, when I was suggesting a percentage weight break as a 'reward" for using 200TW tires, I said it would be dependent upon the class....small amounts for lower classes to higher amounts for ITS and ITR.

Even then of course, it is STILL track and car dependent. Of course, our standard deviation of weight accuracy isn't perfect, so at some point you have to pick a number and say "close enough".

The 3 second difference at the long course at the Glen suggests a 1.3 or so difference at a short course like Lime Rock. (one data point)

[Ron Earp]

The 3 second difference at the long course at the Glen suggests a 1.3 or so difference at a short course like Lime Rock. (one data point)

Either way it is an asswhooping when compared to race tires. I expect that when a few tests are done the "200TW is almost as good as race tires" claim is going to evaporate.

Jeff is testing the Rival I believe and I'm still interested to run them.

[Tom R]

"Three seconds on a 2 minute-ish course" is not much faster for a lot more money. It would be great if you guys could work something out to make street tires competitive.

I think that the weight penalty is a great idea. It is certainly not a perfect solution, but in multi-class multi-car racing nothing is. Start by getting a conservative weight penalty system in place and optimizing it with time.

The ability to run street thread in NASA PT classes has always appealed to me, but there is no point without participation.

[Chip42]

The answer I support will NOT include weight penalties or breaks. Street tires are NOT being looked at to become the law of the land in IT, and I see NO reason to support any sort of rule change or adjustment to accommodate them. they are already allowed to be run and with enough support we can build inter-series championships. the time delta to the Hoosiers is nothing but a data point. it's not large enough to make sharing the track unsafe, but is significant enough to separate those who want to run lower cost cars and those who want to win in the current system.

And I think that is a good thing.

The attraction to the 200TW tires, when voluntary, is mostly to those who want the fun of racing, but don't have the time, energy, money, or desire to develop the car to the degree necessary to win in top IT fields, carry 3-4 sets of tires, etc... this means that those who elect to run such tires will largely be those who are ok with leaving a few HP on the table from that super custom headers and the like, who show up to have fun, and will be rewarded by running a group of like minded racers.

[Ron Earp]

The answer I support will NOT include weight penalties or breaks. Street tires are NOT being looked at to become the law of the land in IT, and I see NO reason to support any sort of rule change or adjustment to accommodate them.

This is good to hear. The original requests started out as "can we get a place to run in the SCCA for Chump cars" and then within hours or days started to evolve into trying to achieve parity for IT cars on race tires and 200TW tires. That should never be a goal of this exercise and if the Chump folks that want to come try the SCCA are going to push it then we should stop now. We'll never be able to properly balance multimarque IT-racing if we pile the additional challenge of different tires and weight compensations into the mix.

[autoxmike]

The answer I support will NOT include weight penalties or breaks. Street tires are NOT being looked at to become the law of the land in IT, and I see NO reason to support any sort of rule change or adjustment to accommodate them. they are already allowed to be run and with enough support we can build inter-series championships. the time delta to the Hoosiers is nothing but a data point. it's not large enough to make sharing the track unsafe, but is significant enough to separate those who want to run lower cost cars and those who want to win in the current system.

And I think that is a good thing.

The attraction to the 200TW tires, when voluntary, is mostly to those who want the fun of racing, but don't have the time, energy, money, or desire to develop the car to the degree necessary to win in top IT fields, carry 3-4 sets of tires, etc... this means that those who elect to run such tires will largely be those who are ok with leaving a few HP on the table from that super custom headers and the like, who show up to have fun, and will be rewarded by running a group of like minded racers.

I'm good with this. From a "the worlds revolves around me" perspective" it would be nice like if Street Tires be allowed to run any rim width. The reasons this is appealing is:

1) I can leagally run my 15X8 LeChump wheels & tires on the used IT car that I will buy soon. HOnestly I will run them anyway any hopefully no one will get to butt-hurt about "Cheating" by running street tires on slightly wider wheels.

2) It does throw a minor performance bone to the folks that want to run street tires. FWIW new 13lb 15x8 wheels can be had for ~$100/wheel.

I would be shocked if a street tires car on slightly wider wheels still wasn't approcaibly slower than when running Hoosiers

[JeffYoung]

I think the present ITAC has its head screwed on straight and will give these guys a place to run but won't recommend changing the rules to give weight breaks, etc.

I'm all for the "place to run/let them try SCCA racing" fix.

One quick response to Tom: IF you made these the only tires you could run in IT, I can almost guarantee you the cost savings evaporate. People will shave, they will throw them away faster and the manufacturers will compete to make stickier, and shorter lasting compounds.

It's happened every time in every other series that tried something similar and it will happen here as well.

[JeffYoung]

I'm good with this. From a "the worlds revolves around me" perspective" it would be nice like if Street Tires be allowed to run any rim width. The reasons this is appealing is:

1) I can leagally run my 15X8 LeChump wheels & tires on the used IT car that I will buy soon. HOnestly I will run them anyway any hopefully no one will get to butt-hurt about "Cheating" by running street tires on slightly wider wheels.

2) It does throw a minor performance bone to the folks that want to run street tires. FWIW new 13lb 15x8 wheels can be had for ~$100/wheel.

I owuld be shocked if a street tires car on slightly wider wheels still wasn't approcaibly slower than when running Hoosiers

I'm sorry, but no. This is the definition of slippery slope. We make one accomodation for street tires and there will be immediate requests to do more.

[autoxmike]

I'm sorry, but no. This is the definition of slippery slope. We make one accomodation for street tires and there will be immediate requests to do more.
It's only a slippery slope if you choose to put on the ski's

[JeffYoung]

Mike, seriously, you're a good dude, but its ALWAYS a slippery slope with rules changes in a race series. Always. You've got enough autox experience to know how that works. You make one allowance that one group of cars get and the others don't and the next thing you know BOTH sides are asking for more.

What gets missed in a lot of this discussion is that the primary attractiveness of IT over the years has been stability. Rules stability. We had a lot of upheaval, necessary in my view, over the last few years and now we need some stability for a LONG time in my view.

[seckerich]

We had a lot of upheaval, necessary in my view, over the last few years and now we need some stability for a LONG time in my view

Best quote in years!!

[Ron Earp]

1) I can leagally run my 15X8 LeChump wheels & tires on the used IT car that I will buy soon. HOnestly I will run them anyway any hopefully no one will get to butt-hurt about "Cheating" by running street tires on slightly wider wheels.

2) It does throw a minor performance bone to the folks that want to run street tires. FWIW new 13lb 15x8 wheels can be had for ~$100/wheel.


Nobody is going to be "butt-hurt" over you running a wider wheel than legal. Until you start beating people, and frankly I don't think that will be happening on street tires.

What wheel pattern are you running? There are lots of 15x7s out there for $100 a wheel and less. If you happen to have the 114.3 x 5 the world is your oyster - there are light (14 lb) stock V6 Mustang wheels all over the place that can be had for free. If it is the Miata pattern then you can buy used Miata wheels all day long for well under $100 each, lightweight racey wheels too!

[mossaidis]

Nobody is going to be "butt-hurt" over you running a wider wheel than legal. Until you start beating people, and frankly I don't think that will be happening on street tires.

What wheel pattern are you running? There are lots of 15x7s out there for $100 a wheel and less. If you happen to have the 114.3 x 5 the world is your oyster - there are light (14 lb) stock V6 Mustang wheels all over the place that can be had for free. If it is the Miata pattern then you can buy used Miata wheels all day long for well under $100 each, lightweight racey wheels too!

I completely agree here.

[Chip42]

Nobody is going to be "butt-hurt" over you running a wider wheel than legal. Until you start beating people...
This, but also, we can make a SINGLE exception within the inter-series race within a race construct and NOT the IT rules as in the GCR, to allow larger width and diameter wheels so long as the tire section width is maintained at or below some prescribed, per-class maximum. we've discussed this already.

[quadzjr]

Just something that I think that I need to address/ask.

I have heard often people on the ITAC say that the big attraction to IT is rules stability. Now that I am an IT racer I do like rules stability, however when I was deciding on what car to build This idea never came up. I assisted my closest racing friend with his ITA, ITS, and FP Hondas (The FP car being the most fun to drive and actually the most reliable for the most part.)

What attracted me to IT was at the time the current class sizes and the idea of cheaper racing. Touring and SS at the time required new cars so that is a big hit just for the car before you start tinkering. Prod Prep level 1 was out of my price range and prep level 2 (later Limited prep I believe) was cheaper but I saw there were still getting dominated at regional and national by older Level 1 prep cars (at the time).

I went to IT because it allowed the cheapest way into racing, community is good, class sizes were good, and alot of options. It wasn't till after I was a racer that I realized the rules and stability (for better or worse). I remember When the RX-8 was classed and steve E. did a lot more than should be required to try to get the car classed correctly and seemed to but his head against the wall for the longest time. I talked people on each governing board (BOD, CRB, and 3 different chairs on the ITAC) to try to correct, in theory, simple problem with my car.
I stay racing IT because I like the people and I was not a fan of national racing, and I like the idea that the rules are stable. I dislike the politics and the still a little sour over the effort I had to go through to fix a car compared to other cars that were fixed.

I guess it depends on the definition of attraction. For me attraction was what got me started in IT. At least for me it had nothing to do with stability. However, now that I am a member I think stability is a good thing. Though I think Stagnant is a bad thing and a perfect way to also kill a class. This may be different for you, but at least for the younger crowd that I come from that is what I was looking at. I did not dig up history, or go ask what other IT racers, etc..

[Knestis]

I don't think anyone ever said that 200s are "almost as good as Hoosiers," in the sense that they would be competitive head-to-head. That's why I prefaced my question to Raymond with the qualifier that I don't think the difference is even germane to the conversation about the role "street tires" might play in all of this...

I do think that the popular opinion has been that they don't suck so much - qualitatively - that they would be simply awful to use on an IT car. That's a sidebar to the other conversation(s) about entry-level racing, integration of LeChump, and other big topics.

Trying to fold street tires into the existing nationwide IT rule set is a HORRIBLE idea. It shouldn't even be considered. Re: the ITAC "making a place for these guys a place to run," they SHOULD DO NOTHING.

It's already allowed to run them. People who want to do so can. Viola! Place to play offered. Under certain circumstances I might do it today - low-powered car, enduros, multipurpose racer not optimized for pointy-end IT running (a la Pablo I)...

If someone wants to start a class-within-a-class or do a gentleman's agreement or whatever, that should happen at the regional level. The ITAC should monitor such efforts with interest but should not have any official role in decisions or plans.

K

[seckerich]

When I started out we had a set of Toyo's for track time, intermediate rain, etc. Then we had a set of Hoosiers for the important stuff. In the ECR series we all ran Toyo just for longevity. That has not changed, and the Rival seems to be a good tire for that. Mount a set and come play.

[RSTPerformance]

Hummm.... Caught up on some sleep!!!

Some points to make from all the discussions... Comparing my brother on race tires and Me on street tires is like comparing a field of SM cars with generally equal drivers, all is basically equal. It's good data but you can easily miss something... in IT, not all is equal. The cars are drastically different as are the drivers. You can easily make performance modifications with the savings from running street tires your first couple years that will easily gain you more time than tires. For example a FWD car should choose a diff LONG before tires if you race at NHMS.

Stephens fast lap times were faster than the car that won the ITR race and the overall winner (way to fast lap record breaking ITS car). I think he had the third fastest lap... And it was an average field of 8 ITR cars and 30 something other cars. My fast lap times would have put me in the hunt for a 5th place finish in the class (5th place normal mid to front pack car turned a lap time about .2seconds faster than me). My point is that In a more "rounded" class I could have easily competed mid pack in class (you have to admit in the northeast most ITR cars are well built front runners)

No SCCA shouldn't change the rules, it would turn away some drivers who wouldn't ever think of racing on non-race tires... To some it's like running mufflers ;)

Yes- people should not be afraid to run on street tires... It is just as much fun and you can do other mods to improve your car or you driving to still be able to compete mid pack. Once you reach that point get the sticky stuff and see what you can do but realize you might not go back!

Yes- SCCA should have a group built into at least some weekends that includes crossover cars and IT type cars ALL on street tires. It's an opportunity for newbies to affordably race for the front against new friends and others to double dip on a budget.

Yes- EVERY top dog racer should have some Dunlops for an intermediate tire and enduros!

Raymond "hope this adds more good value/points to the discussion" Blethen

[adamjabaay]

great conversation guys

making me really think of going to 15x7's and rivals next year

the used tire market with 14'' stuff is tough to come by

[JLawton]

I don't think anyone ever said that 200s are "almost as good as Hoosiers," in the sense that they would be competitive head-to-head. That's why I prefaced my question to Raymond with the qualifier that I don't think the difference is even germane to the conversation about the role "street tires" might play in all of this...

I do think that the popular opinion has been that they don't suck so much - qualitatively - that they would be simply awful to use on an IT car. That's a sidebar to the other conversation(s) about entry-level racing, integration of LeChump, and other big topics.

Trying to fold street tires into the existing nationwide IT rule set is a HORRIBLE idea. It shouldn't even be considered. Re: the ITAC "making a place for these guys a place to run," they SHOULD DO NOTHING.

It's already allowed to run them. People who want to do so can. Viola! Place to play offered. Under certain circumstances I might do it today - low-powered car, enduros, multipurpose racer not optimized for pointy-end IT running (a la Pablo I)...

If someone wants to start a class-within-a-class or do a gentleman's agreement or whatever, that should happen at the regional level. The ITAC should monitor such efforts with interest but should not have any official role in decisions or plans.

K

Yes!!!!

There shouldnt be rules changes to accomodate street tires......... If there is a 3 second difference at Watkins Glen between 200's and Hoosiers, that's awesome in my eyes. In most IT class you may not be running in the top half, but you will be racing!!! (and being off by 3 seconds at WGI and 1 second at Lime Rock will not make you last in any IT class.) Don't use the excuse you can't afford Hoosiers so the rules should be changed. Run 200's and go have fun!!! Do NOT use tire expense as an excuse as to why you can't race.............

You wanna be competitive?? It's gonna be more than just an expensive tire bill to make you a regional champion in most regions. Ask any of the guys who have won championships how much money they spent on developement, testing, dyno time, etc.

Racing is an expensive sport. There is no getting around that but it can be done very inexpensively. I think my first season with my old GTi, running on Kumho's, i spent a total for the season (tires, motel, entry fees, repairs) about $5,500.

I would love to cut my tire bill by 75%. I'm all for giving Chump cars a place to play. I'm all for guys running 200's......................... but changing the rules to make them more competitive??? Nooooooooooooooooo. You wanna run up front you gotta drop the coin!!!

[lateapex911]

I think the suggestions of 'changing the rules" or a "weight penalty/break' have all been done in the context of a regional gentlemans agreement or a race withing a race or that sort of thing. I might have failed to (re) mention that in my references, but I don't recall reading any serious suggestions to just change the National set of rules.

Now, it might have been discussed in blue sky terms like "Hmm, well IF you could figure out a standard deviation, and IF you could correlate that to weight then theoretically the ITAC COULD have a weight factor...." or the like.


The point is that expenses soared when the R tire that lasts maybe 10 cycles became the 'must have'.

It's too bad because it's such a waste of time and resources, not JUST money.

[Dano77]

In most IT class you may not be running in the top half, but you will be racing!!! (and being off by 3 seconds at WGI and 1 second at Lime Rock will not make you last in any IT class.) Don't use the excuse you can't afford Hoosiers so the rules should be changed. Run 200's and go have fun!!! Do NOT use tire expense as an excuse as to why you can't race.............

There is no getting around that but it can be done very inexpensively. I think my first season with my old GTi, running on Kumho's, i spent a total for the season (tires, motel, entry fees, repairs) about $5,500.

I would love to cut my tire bill by 75%. I'm all for giving Chump cars a place to play. I'm all for guys running 200's..



This was the main reason we all went to the Nitto NT-01 for the IT7 class. Making it affordable and fun. It may also be the reason we now have 10 cars in NER alone that all run on these tires.

Its not a 200tw tire but its cheap, available, and its fast and durable.

Pump gas, 1 set of tires, food and entrys for an entire season, tell us whats wrong with this.

[Xian]

I don't think anyone ever said that 200s are "almost as good as Hoosiers," in the sense that they would be competitive head-to-head.

Yeah... I know I said that they're "about as good as RA-1's/NT-01's" but that's a long way from "almost as good as Hoosiers". :blink:

[mossaidis]

"we're" addicts. That includes me...

[gran racing]

At Lime Rock, ITC and ITB cars are often flat from the left hander all the way thru the uphill, thru westbend and even down the downhill. They have cornering capability to spare.
I was pretty quick in my ITB Prelude adn can tell you that I most certainly braked for the uphill and westbend. Only sometimes I didn't in the downhill. Strangely I'm braking less in both of those areas with the ITA Miata. lol Although I don't have a lot more HP yet.

It's an opportunity for newbies to affordably race for the front against new friends and others to double dip on a budget.
IT fields are not that large. Keep them all together. Many of us including myself initially used inexpensive tires. I started off on SRF takeoffs.

[Knestis]

... Yes- SCCA should have a group built into at least some weekends that includes crossover cars and IT type cars ALL on street tires. It's an opportunity for newbies to affordably race for the front against new friends and others to double dip on a budget. ...Now, see - this complicates and confounds things a bit.

If the point is to provide a place to double-dip existing IT cars, putting them on different tires makes no sense, as it will discourage doing so.

On the other hand, if an IT-flavored catchall class were to be created, that allowed cars not specifically prepped to GCR class rules (e.g., Chumpers) but equally did *not* prohibit IT cars as currently prepared - including R tires - then a region could get double bang for its buck. Existing IT guys/gals could double dip or put a second driver in for fun (on whatever tires they want) AND they could attract new cars.

If new Street Tire IT classes (think, otherwise GCR legal but with 200s) were to be introduced at the regional level, they might suck some cars out of "regular" IT ranks, and might bring some out of mothballs, but it seems unlikely to encourage multiple entries. Those new classes could run WITHIN the existing IT group(s).

A smart region might do BOTH an ITX catchall in a group separate from the existing IT classes, AND create "Street Tire" trophies within the IT classes. That's what I would do if I were king.

K

[1stgen]

There is a regional class for this...it's called ITE. I had no place to run my 1.8t swapped VW...but I didn't run around saying they should make a class so I could compete. Just run in IT-a,b,c,e or x on the street tires...I don't get this??!?!?! Why should SCCA go through the huge trouble to fuck up an already difficult to maintain set of IT rules? Just so people could try and level the playing field there so u could race on street tires? First off no one is addressing the fact that when a street tire let's go its abrupt and sudden. Having r comps on the cars makes for " safer" racing...with a more predictable car.

[autoxmike]

A smart region might do BOTH an ITX catchall in a group separate from the existing IT classes, AND create "Street Tire" trophies within the IT classes. That's what I would do if I were king.

K

Pretty much agree. If I were King I'd do this:

1) LeChump/Street Tire Catch all: Run this with the ITA,IT7 type run groups run group. I've run my LeChump MX-3 on street tires with these cars and there are cars that I can race with.


2) ITX Catch all. All IT-like cars can run there. Run separate from IT run groups which will allow double dipping multiple drivers for an IT car. Street tired cars can double dip here. This will allow an entire 3 or 4 driver LeChump crew to race during a club race weekend.

3) Class within a class for IT cars on street tires: Would give more reason for those that want to race in IT classes but want to cut cost of consumables...

Quantity discounts per car to encourage more race entries per car, sharing a car between drivers which will reduce per-driver event costs.

[autoxmike]

First off no one is addressing the fact that when a street tire let's go its abrupt and sudden. Having r comps on the cars makes for " safer" racing...with a more predictable car.

Not true at all with the current crop of High Performance street tires. Not even close. They are ESIER to drive on than race tires. They do not break away suddenly and are very easy to bring back if you push them over the limit.

Have you driven the Dunlop Direzza's, BFG Rival, or Hankook R-S3? I have over 3000 race miles on these tires and they aren't like that at all.

[Chip42]

There is a regional class for this...it's called ITE.

ITE is not nationally recognized, so not all regions HAVE such a class. the SEDIV, for example, recognizes SPO and SPU as catchall classes, and the safety requirements of these are prod based, not IT. true, in many cases it's 6 of one, 1/2 dozen of the other, but in addition to that, the SPU class in particular is pretty popular, with motorcycle-engine powered baby grands, thunder roadsters, and the like running 2-5 entries per event. not the right place to drop IT-speed cars with lesser cornering.

If I were king:

I'd have a nationally or at LEAST Division (conference?) recognized IT safety prep catchall class run WITH the/a IT run group and with regionally sanctioned enduros and long-format races (in SEDIV: CCPS, proIT, TCPS, ECR, TES, FES)

I'd have a street tire based regional championship "race within" existing IT classes. see how many people come out to play without diluting fields.

I'd consider adding another catchall class outside of IT run groups IF there was enough support for it AND if the above ideas played well. I certainly wouldn't have this in from the git go.

[Robbie]

There is a regional class for this...it's called ITE. I had no place to run my 1.8t swapped VW...but I didn't run around saying they should make a class so I could compete. Just run in IT-a,b,c,e or x on the street tires...I don't get this??!?!?! Why should SCCA go through the huge trouble to fuck up an already difficult to maintain set of IT rules? Just so people could try and level the playing field there so u could race on street tires? First off no one is addressing the fact that when a street tire let's go its abrupt and sudden. Having r comps on the cars makes for " safer" racing...with a more predictable car.

They don't let go all of the sudden. They are very progressive. I've driven Star Specs, RS3's and RE01R's on the track.

[Ron Earp]

Whatever happened to that guy that used to post about Chump all the time? I can't remember his name, does VWs and has a long advertising signature.

[1stgen]

Whatever happened to that guy that used to post about Chump all the time? I can't remember his name, does VWs and has a long advertising signature.

He's from Florida, FWD handbook I think?
IT is NOT a nationally recognized class, so.....not sure what you guys are talking àbout.
And if they work so well...run em, do car set up. Compete but doñt expect to win in a big fiełd....that's what I did in ITE. And almost every region has some sort of catch all class.

[lateapex911]

There is a regional class for this...it's called ITE. I had no place to run my 1.8t swapped VW...but I didn't run around saying they should make a class so I could compete. Just run in IT-a,b,c,e or x on the street tires...I don't get this??!?!?! Why should SCCA go through the huge trouble to fuck up an already difficult to maintain set of IT rules? Just so people could try and level the playing field there so u could race on street tires? First off no one is addressing the fact that when a street tire let's go its abrupt and sudden. Having r comps on the cars makes for " safer" racing...with a more predictable car.

Ahhh, the 'safety card" I love when it gets played.

First, have you driven on said tires??
Second, if a "predictable car' were so important that we didn't want people driving , "unpredictable cars", then half the field would be banned...

"
Why should SCCA go through the huge trouble"? you ask...

Well, lets focus your argument on something thats actually being discussed. I think those of us actually suggesting the concept haven't said that the ITAC (SCCA) must create a whole new hierarchy and class structure...maybe it's been suggested that it would have been nice to do way back in the day, but thats quite different.

What IS being discussed is that theres a whole goup of racers out there and SCCA has largely not tapped them, and the crossover to SCCA isn't that severe.

And what could we do to make the jump more attractive???
yes yes, it's great to say, "When I was a young racer I didn't demand my own class, and I walked tow miles to school each way, uphill, in the snow!"

Yes yes yes, I too have spent way too much prepping my car to the max, I've worked my way from the bottom, but you know what?? WHO CARES?? The "pay your dues kid" rhetoric from old geezers like me aint gonna get new converts.

And WHY should people have to jump through stupid hoops?? Seriously, lets figure out a way...thats smart and effective, to get new guys racing with us. MAYbe we can't reinvent the club enough to attract them, MAYbe it would cost us existing stakeholders, but MAYbe we can fine a neat solution that works for everyone.
Thats why were noodling regional solutions.

I vote Kirk King.

[lawtonglenn]

...The point is that expenses soared when the R tire that lasts maybe 10 cycles became the 'must have'..


We only get 6 cycles before they become "mid pack" tires... This is by far our
biggest expense item in the entire budget

I could run the tires from cycle 7-12, but the psychological problem becomes
"why bother going if I'm not going to try my hardest to win"

So after cycle 6 they become "qualifying rubber" as I'm less interested in burning money
to get to be on the first or second row at the start... fourth or fifth row is fine, If I'm good
enough I will be able to make it up in the race, when I'm on "race rubber"

If everyone was running on NT01s, or even 200TWs, I'd be happy

.

[autoxmike]

IMHO the SCCA would benefit from a competitive class where people can race on a lower budget. Much lime I hear IT used to be. One obvious part of that equation is the new generation of street tires. If the SCCA doesn't figure it out then someone else will. For all of us SCCA folk that would be a bad thing. I was hoping that the IT crowd would be a bit more open to figuring out how to let ST cars be just a ltitle less uncompetitive. Wouldn't you all like to see more new blood And bigger field?

Maybe in the end the answer will be a catch all ST class evolving into something more like the IT of old with more limited prep?? Or just stay the course and hope NASA or Chump figure out the recipe...

[Chip42]

Maybe in the end the answer will be a catch all ST class evolving into something more like the IT of old with more limited prep?? Or just stay the course and hope NASA or Chump figure out the recipe...

The problem, mike, is that whatever changes happen have to happen alongside the stuff that doesn't change. adding run groups is NOT easy.

and I 100% disagree with rules changes. if people want to come and play in IT, but don't want to spend the purple cash, GREAT! they are welcome. to prove it, see the ideas for ITST/STC/IT200. you know where I'm going with this. equating things that aren't linearly different is very hard. creating a new objective to encourage people to use 200s and supporting that with a series and championship within the existing framework is not only easy to implement, but can be controlled by the local / regional racers and is not dependent upon the ITAC, CRB, BoD, local BoG, etc... those of us who want to participate in region need to agree on a few things and get someone to manage and administer this thing and it's go.

use THAT to attract new blood. use THAT to show the strengths of 200s. Use THAT data for any future adventure into rulesmaking.

1stGen:
Mike Ogren is the CFR guy you are asking about. I too have noted the thunderous silence of his absence on this topic.

also - IT is a nationally recognized category, consisting of ITC, B, A, S, and R. that's why it's in the GCR. IT is a Regional only class, not National (big N), but anymore that just means you can't run majors or the runoffs. classes with rules and identities maintained by a region are regionally recognized classes, and Regional only (big R).

[pfcs]

IT was born when Cal-Club (SCCA) started a new regional class based on 1963 production car rules.
It quickly became the most popular regional sedan class, and in 1984, was adopted on the east coast, running under special "suggested" ruleset under the umbrella of Showroom Stock.
When national adopted it and published rules (85?), I believe the first paragraph read: (sic) "Improved Touring is INTENDED (my emphasis) to be a true dual purpose class where members may race vehicles that can be driven on the street"
There was actual angina over the possibiity that the rules should require un-leaded fuel lest SCCA run afoul of EPA regulations!
Hard to imagine today grasshopper?? Certainly is for recent converts.
National was very concerned about "junk car racing". (Doug Reed, dir of club racing, queried me at length about this with good reason!) but the class survived the gestation period pretty much intact, and hundreds (thousands?) of new cars were being prepared and bolstering the ranks of a not-so-healthy club.

So be in possibility please!
Be in the possibility that somehow a re-birth of reason and reasonableness might imagine a new way forward that rhymes with Improved Touring as it was and always should have been!
OK, all you inside the box revisionists can pile on and tell me how everything that morphed IT into a mess was well, good, and oh so necessary!
Bullshit!

[autoxmike]

Chip,

I agee that adding new classes, run groups etc is next to impossible. My last post was more a reflection of what would be nice to somehow happen, and some musings on what could happen if another group "invents" s successful race class similar to IT but focusing on keepingvthr cost of racing down.

And I certainly appreciate you support of a "class within a class" for street tires. If be interested in working with you to make that happen in SEDiv

[JeffYoung]

Be in the possibility that somehow a re-birth of reason and reasonableness might imagine a new way forward that rhymes with Improved Touring as it was and always should have been!
OK, all you inside the box revisionists can pile on and tell me how everything that morphed IT into a mess was well, good, and oh so necessary!
Bullshit!

Your first point, we're working on it and agree.

Your second, lame and unnecessary.

[gran racing]

Somewhat interesting how many times we hear about IT racecars not being cool enough with Lexan windows, more mods, or whatever from the younger generation. How cool will they think it would be to run on street tires? I agree from the budget stand point but those other items often mentioned are contrary to that as well.

[1stgen]

Flying lizard!!!!!!! That's his name.
I'm not pulling the I walked to school in 12" of snow bullshit you refer to....ALL I'm saying is its difficult enough to maintain a level field in IT as it is...there is no national rule set. Plus IT is NOT recognized by national.
So....you want help getting a street tire class? Then maybe you should also help get IT classes get recognized by national first. How about a Proposed set of standard rules? And along with it a NEW street tire only IT class. Don't reinvent the wheel, just repackage it with some bling. Until you go to corporate as "king" I don't think they want to deal with the problem, emerging market....greying club.

[Peter Olivola]

I think you are confusing the restriction on IT being a regional only category with the rule set. IT is defined in the GCR for the entire club with ITC, ITB, ITA, ITS and ITR clearly delineated including spec lines for the cars in each class.


Flying lizard!!!!!!! That's his name.
I'm not pulling the I walked to school in 12" of snow bullshit you refer to....ALL I'm saying is its difficult enough to maintain a level field in IT as it is...there is no national rule set. Plus IT is NOT recognized by national.
So....you want help getting a street tire class? Then maybe you should also help get IT classes get recognized by national first. How about a Proposed set of standard rules? And along with it a NEW street tire only IT class. Don't reinvent the wheel, just repackage it with some bling. Until you go to corporate as "king" I don't think they want to deal with the problem, emerging market....greying club.

[Knestis]

I've been in the class since the original "national" ITCS was published as a little paperback book. The only way we could have kept the class in stasis would have been to never add any new cars to the eligibility list. And as soon as it got popular and competition heated up, costs were destined to increase. Any rose-colored visor ideas about a simpler time when IT cars cost $1000 is possible only from a place where nobody tried very hard - like where I was racing in the northwest at the time.

And when you start listing "everything that morphed IT into a mess," Phil, make sure you include "cheaters who implicitly colluded to shift the performance envelope of entire classes," "rapid advances in OE street car performance at any price point," "increasing cost of automobiles in CPI-corrected dollars," "federal auto safety mandates," and all of the rest. Blaming the "death of IT as we knew it" on trifles like open ECUs ignores the bigger influences that really matter.

Mike needs to remember that, as Chumpcar has demonstrated, rules will NOT limit costs, even on street tires.

K

PS - All that said, how about a class that would allow us to race commonly-available, recently-produced automobiles in as near the legal, street-driven form of those automobiles as is practically and safely possible under racing circumstances?" That sounds good. It's called Touring. Can't do much of anything to those cars so they must be super-cheap, right...?

[Peter Olivola]

I wonder if anyone else reading this is old enough to appreciate the world class irony of this statement.


IT was born when Cal-Club (SCCA) started a new regional class based on 1963 production car rules.

[1stgen]

I think you are confusing the restriction on IT being a regional only category with the rule set. IT is defined in the GCR for the entire club with ITC, ITB, ITA, ITS and ITR clearly delineated including spec lines for the cars in each class.

????? When there are IT cars at national races and runoffs then it will be a recognized series. Other than in STL.....

[Peter Olivola]

As I said, you're confusing things. IT is a national rule set. As for running in National/Majors events, be careful what you wish for. It would also be worth your while to find out what the entire IT community thinks about becoming Runoffs eligible.


????? When there are IT cars at national races and runoffs then it will be a recognized series. Other than in STL.....

[lateapex911]

PS - All that said, how about a class that would allow us to race commonly-available, recently-produced automobiles in as near the legal, street-driven form of those automobiles as is practically and safely possible under racing circumstances?" That sounds good. It's called Touring. Can't do much of anything to those cars so they must be super-cheap, right...?

I see what you did there ;)

[1stgen]

As I said, you're confusing things. IT is a national rule set. As for running in National/Majors events, be careful what you wish for. It would also be worth your while to find out what the entire IT community thinks about becoming Runoffs eligible.

I'm pretty sure most everyone would like to see IT go national???
That's what STL was developed for, a place for IT cars to go because there not eligible for national. Why wouldn't you want to be eligible to run nationàl or regionals?

[lateapex911]

I'm not pulling the I walked to school in 12" of snow bullshit you refer to....
No, you kinda are saying that...

...... I had no place to run my 1.8t swapped VW...but I didn't run around saying they should make a class so I could compete.


...there is no national rule set. Plus IT is NOT recognized by national.
So....you want help getting a street tire class? Then maybe you should also help get IT classes get recognized by national first. How about a Proposed set of standard rules? .
Where have you been???
For a bunch of years now, IT has been in the GCR, as a National Rule set. ANYwhere you run an ITA car, for example, it has to weigh the same, and has the same allowances. Kirk and I were on the Advisory Committee, and we took part in conference calls monthly that were hosted by the SCCA National phone system/office.

IT, along with other Nationally recognized classes doesn't compete at the Runoffs, but that has no bearing on it's "national" status.


This is a classic case of technology creep. Rule was written back in the day that allowed "DOT" approved tires. I'm sure the PTB at the time figured that was a great way to make the classes run on street tires.

Then somebody at a tire company said, "Hmmmm, being "DOT" doesn't mean it can't REALLY corner, and be made of magic gravity defying compounds, does it, heh heh heh..."
And, mere months later, 1/3 or the field is on what are essentially race compound tires.
I'm not even sure the ITAC existed back then...I think IT was guided by the CRB, who had a LOT to look after, so categories like IT didn't get much of their time. Well, in any case. whoever was in charge didn't notice the change until the horse was out of the barn.

Phil, the Genie is really tough to cram back in the bottle. As Kirk says, the ONLY way to freeze the rules is to freeze time.

[Peter Olivola]

Most everyone? How do you know that?

I think you might want to query the ST committee and CRB about why the category and STL class were created.


I'm pretty sure most everyone would like to see IT go national???
That's what STL was developed for, a place for IT cars to go because there not eligible for national. Why wouldn't you want to be eligible to run nationàl or regionals?

[lateapex911]

I'm pretty sure most everyone would like to see IT go national???
That's what STL was developed for, a place for IT cars to go because there not eligible for national. Why wouldn't you want to be eligible to run nationàl or regionals?

FOr those who haven't been reading this board for a good period, there have been several informal polls run here about the very subject.

it's reasonable to say that it's a hotly debated subject among the responders, and it's safe to say that this board really only reflects a small portion of the IT racers actually competing.

That said, the general trend in the polls has been one of greater acceptance to the "national" agenda.

But, there are a ton of contributing issues that cloud their answers such as:
-What will the National ?Regional landscape look like in 5 years???
-Will 'going National" ruin Regional car counts?
-Will going National make the class cost more?
-How will the system used to decide which classes go work?

And on and on.

The last poll run here, about 4(?) years ago indicated that a slight majority of IT drivers would have desired that the classes be Runoffs eligible.

Also at roughly that time, the SCCA national office was exploring such concepts and a Super Committee was formed to create a set of suggestions and "Make IT Runoffs eligible" was one of them.

The CRB informally polled the ITAC, but I'm not sure how onboard the CRB was with the concept.

In any case, it never happened. Peter Keane (then of the CRB) was a strong proponent of the concept, and he decided STL was a solution that fit his needs/vision, and here we are.

[1stgen]

Your right, here were are.....but I still think that going national is the answer. Then you are open to having new street tire only regional classes.

[Chip42]

Your right, here were are.....but I still think that going national is the answer. Then you are open to having new street tire only regional classes.

1 - not happening. the CRB's been pretty clear about this in recent past. all things are possible but IT is for regional championships only for the foreseeable future.

2 - we don't need more classes. we've discussed street tire options. they are easy to start within the existing framework of classes. IF and WHEN they take off, we have reason and ammunition to discuss rules changes up to and including adding new classes. it's not even worth discussing until we have the numbers to support it.

[Knestis]

...The last poll run here, about 4(?) years ago indicated that a slight majority of IT drivers would have desired that the classes be Runoffs eligible, and a huge pile of drivers in existing National classes were scared shitless about the prospect of having one of the most popular categories in Club Racing swipe their golden ticket to the RubOffs.

Also at roughly that time, the SCCA national office was exploring such concepts and a Super Committee was formed to create a set of suggestions and "Make IT Runoffs eligible" was one of them.

The CRB informally polled the ITAC, but I'm not sure how onboard the CRB was with the concept.

In any case, it never happened. Peter Keane (then of the CRB) was a strong proponent of the concept, and he decided STL was a solution that fit his needs/vision, and here we are.

"Fixed that for you," as they say...

All of that proves that when someone is willing to grease the skids, things can happen - creating new National classes out of thin air, ignoring the pesky participation eligibility requirement, etc., etc., etc.

K

[lateapex911]

"Fixed that for you," as they say...

All of that proves that when someone is willing to grease the skids, things can happen - creating new National classes out of thin air, ignoring the pesky participation eligibility requirement, etc., etc., etc.

K
Yea, i was trying to be "gentile" about it.

But yes, I have little faith that the people who decided did so for altruistic reasons.

Not to say that SOME of our people in positions of power aren't straight shooters and unbiased, like Dick Patullo, but, ten years from now, when he's out of office, and has had a few beers, I bet we can get even him to admit that all of the cigar smokers behind the closed doors don't share the same standards.

Whatever, it's water thats long ago flowed under the bridge, and we all get the reality we tolerate. Besides, going over it again will incite responses like "crybaby" etc from certain ST adhoc members, ;)

[dickita15]

If you guys were at convention you would have heard SCCA has a statute of limitations on bitching. If it happened five years ago or more get over, everyone that made that decision is gone.

[Ron Earp]

If you guys were at convention you would have heard SCCA has a statute of limitations on bitching. If it happened five years ago or more get over, everyone that made that decision is gone.

If they didn't have the convention out in the desert where racers aren't maybe some SCCA members would have heard that...:)

[Knestis]

If you guys were at convention you would have heard SCCA has a statute of limitations on bitching. If it happened five years ago or more get over, everyone that made that decision is gone.

Don't get me started about Doug Reed. :happy204:

K

EDIT - More seriously, the players turn over but the culture stays the same.

[pfcs]

IT got national recognition when:
1/ got ridiculously popular in 2 years
2/National realized it was a logical place for "old" Showroom Stock cars which aged out and in only 4 years became pretty much worthless.

Slightly ironic that a class that was to be the graveyard of another, is now having one prepared for it!

[JeffYoung]

If you guys were at convention you would have heard SCCA has a statute of limitations on bitching. If it happened five years ago or more get over, everyone that made that decision is gone.

I like that rule.

[JeffYoung]

IT got national recognition when:
1/ got ridiculously popular in 2 years
2/National realized it was a logical place for "old" Showroom Stock cars which aged out and in only 4 years became pretty much worthless.

Slightly ironic that a class that was to be the graveyard of another, is now having one prepared for it!

Is there a reason you are here? If you hate IT so much and think its dead, and you're being told your fixes aren't going to happen/are pie in the sky/etc., then what's the point? What are you trying to prove, other than send me obnoxious PMs?

[lateapex911]

You're getting PMs?? Awww, I feel left out. :(

[Knestis]

<---- Feels left out, thinking about volunteering for the Touring Ad Hoc Committee

[pfcs]

Is there a reason you are here? If you hate IT so much and think its dead, and you're being told your fixes aren't going to happen/are pie in the sky/etc., then what's the point? What are you trying to prove, other than send me obnoxious PMs?

If you got a PM from me, I'd love to know how! You must be confusing me with someone you hate! I don't send PMs and I don't drink!

As far as why I'm here? IT was my bliss for many years, I was a competitive driver in the class from it's inception until becoming a paraplegic in 1995 and raced extensively in the northeast as well as participating in "Volvos from Hell, the Tour" and racing coast to coast.
I built a hand-controlled A2 and raced it quite successfully for three years after I was injured, writing it off in open practice at ARRC, 2008?
I think that qualifies me to have an opinion, and I beg you to take off your gloves and look at it objectively.
I am not totally or even majorly "down" on IT-it's because I love it so much that I put in my two cents-take it or leave it, and PLEASE, don't discount my experience or treat me condescendingly and I'll do the same for you. This isn't the place for a pissing contest!!
I am posting to this thread because it brings up very pertinent issues to IT as it was envisioned as well as how it now exists. This thread's current popularity demonstrates that it is "topical" and as such, it is being discussed by the community I hope I'm allowed to still belong to. I believe that the "long" view, going back to it's origins (which in my time-frame isn't so long ago) is a valid reference point and is pertinent to the discussion. I think there are others in this community that appreciate where we came from and that where we have come to is not exactly Camelot!
This cheap tire deal brings up a lot of the culture of the old days of IT, and I can't think why being in this conversation might not bring forward and foster improvements, however they might occur.
So I hope this conversation continues without counterproductive rancor or disrespect, and I hope it fertilizes some minds and maybe, just maybe, something positive can come from it?
But then,maybe I'm just a pie-in-the-sky kinda guy!

PS: don't make me build another car_you wouldn't like that!

[lateapex911]

I
PS: don't make me build another car_you wouldn't like that!

Actually, Phil, knowing Ron he WOULD like it. He'd LOVE it! Ron works his butt off, and gets more done in a day than nearly anyone, and leaves no stone unturned. He's taken the road less traveled with his cars, and loves solid competition.

He would love you to come out, and bring your best.

(Hope I'm not out of line speaking for you Ron!LOL)

[pfcs]

I certainly hope he's confused.
Checked my messages sent-most recent was 2010 and never one to Ron.
I followed his TR8 build with more than a little interest because I owned one til I got injured (it, my Lotus 7, and 2 sprites now are in former IT racer/Volvo From Hell/spridget racer Jeff Lanes Lane Motor Museum collection) and I have much interest and involvement in EFI matters, since both my IT cars needed (and got) tuning issues resolved int those areas. I think we'd get along just fine! (and wasn't it him that built the Jensen-Healy too?)
I think Jeff and I are both out-of-the-box problem solvers. That is a mixed blessing for IT cars but it is wonderful and stimulating for the developer, and was at least half of what I enjoy about the class.
People like me push the limits of the box called "rules".
And it is the responsibility of the "parents" (benign rulers?) to set good limits and not let the box get too big.
It's my belief the box is too big.
We need another box, but unfortunately, there's too many already!
What to do?
I wish they would have just let production racing die on the vine when it was almost dead. Then IT could have supplanted it, (after all-it's deja-vu all over again, isn't it? 1963-1983/2013) and we could have a sensible do-over with street tires and not have to get pissed about all these dumb boxes!

[Ron Earp]

I think you folks are all confuzzled!

Ron; Mustang build thread, Jensen Healey, 260Z, not on ITAC.

Jeff; TR8, on ITAC.

I like building cars though, that much is correct and I do appreciate well-built machines both on and off track. At least half of the enjoyment of the hobby is solving problems and making things work.

[pfcs]

....is confused.
Please, just indulge me.
Most times, I stay at the NJ home for the mentally enfeebled....
.....and they let me out sometimes........
when I won't stop talking rings and bearings.

And once again Jake, thanks for clearing that up for me!

[gran racing]

Not tires, but same theory...

The Washington DC SSM group has done something interesting and has a large following. They use one shop to dyno cars, and have an established max HP amount. Too much? Gets detuned. Then engine is sealed. I know doing this on a large scale would be really difficult, but it's a pretty neat theory. Seems in large to work for them. If I were down there, I'd seriously consider it too.

[lateapex911]

My bad, yup! Thinking Jeff, writing Ron. What i said applies to jeff though. He DOES seem to fly all over the freakin world every week and still drag his car to the track. He's developed the shit out of a crusty old heap that EVERYbody told him was a waste of time and would never last a whole race or be fast, and he's done both.

And he LOVEs his class and IT to be full of entrants.

Sorry to Jeff/Ron dyslexic that, guys!!

[gran racing]

My only question, were they both not in CT around the time you spun the parking lot booth when leaving with the enclosed trailer??? And we worry about the racecar costs. What about some sort of cap on transporting the car costs? :)

[lateapex911]

My only question, were they both not in CT around the time you spun the parking lot booth when leaving with the enclosed trailer??? And we worry about the racecar costs. What about some sort of cap on transporting the car costs? :)
Was a fun night! Great guys, wish they lived closer! Or vice versa

[JeffYoung]

So I appear to have Phil Hunt mixed up with Flying Lizard -- Lizard's the one who took time out of his day to inform me I was ignorant, probably didn't race and shouldn't be on the ITAC. Sorry Phil, my apologies.

Yes, I think most cars in teh ITCS can be made competitive if you have the will, the time or the money, or a combination of the same. Jake, thanks for the props, but I fully admit that while it has plenty of disadvantages, the Turd8 has some advantages too.....

Dave, I think we met at dinner (with Dick Patullo?) that trip up to buy Jake's Porsche.

[StephenB]

Feel free to beat us up and chat about our comparison run at Watkins Glen last weekend :)

2.8 seconds was the gap. lots of variables but certainly shows that you can still race and have fun on street tires! As others said, no comparison if your trying to fight for the win but if you get a few people to run them then I think you will have fun racing... which is what this is all about.

For us next year we are seriously thinking about running on street tires with a few others and racing in double the events by spending our tire bill on fuel and entries.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJWyDOh51kw&amp;feature=youtube_gdata_player

[Dano77]

For us next year we are seriously thinking about running on street tires with a few others and racing in double the events by spending our tire bill on fuel and entririer (http://r)




UMMMMM Duh!?!?



Dan

[Chip42]

Stephen - the video is set to private - please fix I'd love to see it.

[StephenB]

Oh man! I will fix it in the am, sorry for the suspense! I am on my phone and can't figure it out!

Stephen

I fixed it... I think!

[lateapex911]

Well done video, Stephen!!

I'm impressed. (If anything, the Hoosier had some traffic, though it also got a draft.)
Was that Dr Bro?(in the E36?)

[StephenB]

The black BMW Directly in front is Mark Eksten and the white BMW is John Harrison. Doc was about 2 seconds ahead of us and won the race.

Stephen

The picture below is a few laps later on the last lap, last turn. Doc in front with the three of us exiting the second to last turn nose to tail. I have my lights on near the back trying to distract Mark the best I can :-) (this was a picture from the race NOT on street tires)

https://fbcdn-photos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/s720x720/969525_493859244023388_1352791877_n.jpg

[Flyinglizard]

AS most of my ideas are considered "absurd" , I have been lurking this thread. Plus I am really focused on some patent searches.

First. I moved my IT cars to Prod for the tire issues. I dont want to buy HOHOs to race for some plastic.( and I cant rent a car on Hoosiers and clear any cash, one flat spot ruins it.)

The 180TW tires are slower than any DOT race tires .
I get 1.22ish lateral G on the Toyo SM tires, fitted to my Golf, On concrete.
I get about 1.08 or so with the 190TW Dunlops, same turn , same car. (true that some lower spring rates may bring up the max grip a bit on the lower grip tires.)

My basic rule set for the "ITX" or ITJ class allows the SCCA legal IT cars along with the limited prod cars to run on the 180TW tires.

Many Chumpcars are IT cars with street tires. These guys have found that street tires are a nice way to race. The tires last 20 hrs or more. ( depending on aggression level. )
The TW rating should be 180 or higher, to match the lemons/Chumpcar rules, not 200.
Many more tire choices at 180. maybe 10 tires for the SM size

The best way IMHO to execute this idea would be to have a pizza party sat eve for the 180TW cars . Make it look like the bestway to race and it may work out that way. Sell it.

[zz10]

As an outsider looking in, moving towards cheaper tires seems like a no brainer. I agree with others that running $1000+ short lived hoosiers on IT* cars seems silly. IT is obviously not alone, with slicks on FF etc ...

I'm not sure why the jump to 200+ tires though. I would think making it 100+, leaving NT01s and RA1s would make more sense and attract more people. The tires are cheaper than hoosiers and last a lot longer - the overall tire cost would probably go down by a factor of 4.

I agree with the others who suggest just making it a gentleman's agreement within IT* to start. You don't need any official involvement at all. Just a group of drivers in each region to get it started, appoint a leader, and get the word out. A website would be nice to post points, and "who's coming". If guys want to chip in for a season end trophy - fine, otherwise just post a picture on the website with "season champion".

Just get it started and see where it goes. If only 10% of the IT cars run harder tires and it fizzles out, so be it. Maybe the numbers become higher and it gains some momentum ...

[Dano77]

So you saying to do exactly what the NER IT7 guys have done

100 treadwear Nitto NT-01
Season points, and year end trophy
Gentlmans Agreement so as to not drive off new competitors that buy cars with tires already.
buy tires at Walmart and use 1 set for up to 2 seasons.

Sounds like a great idea. Sounds just like the idea I posted on page 1 that is in practice now. Hmmmmmmmmmm:smilie_pokal:

Sorry for the sarcasm, its been a long week.

[StephenB]

Haha, that's ok Dan :).

We are going to start a 200TW class, and yup that may be the name of it.... Eligible to all IT cars but focused on ITR and ITS since I know people interested in it... More to come soon. I may run in my new class in September. This will not be an SCCA class, just something we are going to do on our own as a gentle men's agreement similar to what you did.

Stephen

[Flyinglizard]

After 4 years of running @ 190, the new Chumpcar rule @ 180 is a vast improvement for tire choices. ( even tho I still have 12 of the 200) :)

Again, please look at 180 for the amount of cheaper tire choices.

There may be only 1 or 2 tires @ 200 that fit your car but 10 options @ 180.
Choice is good. PS, edit. many of the 200-300 tw tires will chunk without shaving. Most of the 180 class tires are ready to run.

[mossaidis]

2 cents. I am in support of moving IT to 180TW even w/o adjustments. After much thought and for reasons stated above, including the reasons some provided why we should not be going to 180TW, I can argue why we should.

Now, I need to get ready for NJMP. :) Bye!

[Bill Miller]

While I think this is a great idea, I doubt it will get much traction beyond the gentlemen's agreement stage. I would suspect that the IT market is a large portion of the R6 market. Hoosier won't take loosing that much revenue lightly.

[pfcs]

I was always an optimist. Don't forget whence we came!
Enough "feet" voted for the original IT.
They still have the power.
"Feet-do yo thing!!"

PS: I just replaced the OE 140TW tires on my 06 GTI with 180s-they were too expensive and wore out too fast; went through 2 sets in 53k, and I put snows on for winters! I'm with you in spirit!

[StephenB]

I will be creating a double dip class that my brother and a few friends may race in. We will be in STL and/or STU as far as SCCA is concerned and if people like it I will go to our region about it. Just a gentlemen thing for now. I can post up my ideas if people are interested.

Stephen

[pfcs]

Hopefully "if you build it, they will come"
a field of dreams
one that can afford tires

[lateapex911]

After 4 years of running @ 190, the new Chumpcar rule @ 180 is a vast improvement for tire choices. ( even tho I still have 12 of the 200) :)

Again, please look at 180 for the amount of cheaper tire choices.

There may be only 1 or 2 tires @ 200 that fit your car but 10 options @ 180.
Choice is good. PS, edit. many of the 200-300 tw tires will chunk without shaving. Most of the 180 class tires are ready to run.Stephen et al.: MM makes a very good point. Even though you think it's just a small agreement, look further down the road when you choose your line in the sand. I said 200 as a talking point. Based on no significant research.
Look around and see what choices exist, and make a rule that encompasses those choices. Later on, it's going to annoy folks if the line in the sand is moved.

At least try and get it close now.

[StephenB]

For sure... looking to use some ideas from NASA that is working for them. Yes I know I can't use that name here but so far it is working out on paper:) testing the ideas in September on a casual basis...

Stephen

[Flyinglizard]

http://forum.chumpcar.com/uploads/gallery/album_42/med_gallery_1344_42_148819.jpg Tires/sizes price
FWIWthere are not many tires TW 180 in 13 or 14 rim sizes

At this point you could build upon history and not repeat past oversights. IE spec the tire width and not the wheel width( or both). Sounds a little absurd I know but this may help avoid the cantilever tires like the A6, 245/40/13 , made to fit the rim size and obsolete the other tires. Prod has the same issue today that they are just starting to work out of.( 10in tires on 7 in wheels, made just for this rule in the US .)

As most of the world /USA road racing is going to this sort of rule,, It would pay to outlaw any tire clearly out of range grip wise and not in the spirit. Disregard any tire contingencies. Dont take money from anyone..
IMHO, MM

[Chip42]

for the time being, operating under IT rules means operating under IT wheel width rules. that pretty much locks you into a 205, MAYBE a 225 on a 6" rim in ITB and C and 225 MAYBE larger in ITA and S. R can get a lot bigger, maybe 245 on an 8.5" rim.

I agree in theory with Mike, though. long term, if this takes off, you'd want to lock the class to a max section width not a wheel width. this could be done today in some localized sub rules, but the gentlemen's agreement version of things will want to keep existing rules until they have a leg to stand on in terms of demonstrated participation counts. this means that ITB and A are likely to be the bogey classes for the success of the gentlemen's agreement as they are most likely to work well on these wheel/tire fitment options.

agreed on 180TW. though I think 200 is probably good enough in terms of fitments, I'd want to maximize crossover and rules equality between these ideas and established TW rating minima as much as possible.

[autoxmike]

My 2 cents...

180TW as it matches LeChump. LeChump teams can run the same tires in both SCCA IT-Street & LeChump if they want.

Definitely go with tire section width vs. wheel width limits.

I'm seriously thinking of what I'll be doing next year. Maybe run the LeChump in STX or make it STL legal. Double or triple dip to share weekend with teammates. Run ECR series in STL on street tires.

Or - Maybe buy a cheap IT car for club race weekends and run on street tires.

[Aditya8100]

for the time being, operating under IT rules means operating under IT wheel width rules. that pretty much locks you into a 205, MAYBE a 225 on a 6" rim in ITB and C and 225 MAYBE larger in ITA and S. R can get a lot bigger, maybe 245 on an 8.5" rim.

I agree in theory with Mike, though. long term, if this takes off, you'd want to lock the class to a max section width not a wheel width. this could be done today in some localized sub rules, but the gentlemen's agreement version of things will want to keep existing rules until they have a leg to stand on in terms of demonstrated participation counts. this means that ITB and A are likely to be the bogey classes for the success of the gentlemen's agreement as they are most likely to work well on these wheel/tire fitment options.

agreed on 180TW. though I think 200 is probably good enough in terms of fitments, I'd want to maximize crossover and rules equality between these ideas and established TW rating minima as much as possible.

I am totally agree with you. You are 100% good here that the gentlemen's agreement version of things will want to keep existing rules until they have a leg to stand on in terms of demonstrated participation counts.

[StephenB]

OK so I am putting PEN to paper today!! Tim and I ARE going to race eachother in group 7 in a few weeks using our new class that we made :)

It is called: RST (Racing and Street Tire)
We will follow ALL Improved Touring Rules including rim widths and current listings. We don't want to re-invent the wheel to much and have ZERO interest in redoing current weights listed in the GCR. Our goal is to race against eachother (I am in ITR and he is in ITS) AND introduce longer lasting Street Tires like the Dunlop Direzza ZII so that we can race more often on a budget!

YES this is our own gentlemens agreement class and we are actually racing in STU as far as SCCA is concerned. BUT we are going to have fun and we welcome any input and or participation from others!!


Here is how we decided it will work: (We will probably do tweeking after this event)

RST Power to weight Ration Base weight goal is to be equal to ITS currently. So the following calculations will need to be done if you are in a different class BEFORE using the Tire Handicap.

ITR cars will ADD 14.7% to the ITR spec weight for the car.
ITS cars will STAY at ITS spec weight for the car.
ITA cars will SUBTRACT 12.4% of the ITA spec weight for the car

* For example the RX8 in ITR is 2850lbs so to run in RST without a Tire handicap it would run at 3,269lbs

Tire Handicap rules:
AFTER determining the base weight above you will then take the following modification to the weight of the car.

1.) The following DOT-approved R-compound tires and those with a UTQG treadwear rating of 40 or less will NOT HAVE ANY REDUCTION IN WEIGHT:
Examples: BFG R1, Goodyear Eagle RS AC, Hankook TD, Hankook Z214 (C90 & C91 compounds only), Hoosier A6, Hoosier R6, Maxxis RC-1, Goodyear Eagle RS, Hankook Z214 (C71, C70, C51, C50), Kumho V710, Grand Am Continental Tire Sports Car Challenge tires, Toyo Proxes RR

5) DOT-approved R-compound tires with a UTQG treadwear rating of 41 to 130 WILL GET A HANDICAP AND REDUCE 5% OFF OF THE BASE WEIGHT
Examples: Kumho V700, Michelin Pilot Sport Cup, Nitto NT01, Pirelli PZero Corsa, Toyo R888, Toyo RA-1, Yokahama A048,

6) DOT-approved (non-R-compound) tires with a UTQG treadwear rating of 131-200 WILL GET A HANDICAP AND REDUCE 8% OFF OF THE BASE WEIGHT:
Examples: Bridgestone Potenza RE070, Dunlop Direzza Sport Z1 Star Spec, Dunlop Direzza ZII, , Kumho Ecsta XS, Hankook R-S3, Toyo R1R, Yokohama Advan A046 & Neova AD08,

* Using the same RX8 example if the car had a tire with a treadwear at or above 131 it would use the following to determine weight:
2850 * 14.7% = 3269lbs then 3269 * 92% = 3007lbs

For reference here is the class structure for lbs/hp in Improved Touring
ITR: 11.25 lbs/hp
ITS: 12.90 lbs/hp
ITA: 14.50 lbs/hp
ITB: 17.00 lbs/hp
ITC: 18.84 lbs/hp

For reference here is the class structure for lbs/hp in NASA PT
PTB 10.25 lbs/hp
PTC 12.00 lbs/hp
PTD 14.25 lbs/hp
PTE 16.50 lbs/hp
PTF 19.50 lbs/hp

[Chip42]

why not simplify it to "Run street tires of 180TW or higher in IT using existing rules and classifications"?

if it's popular, you have people to run with. what you're proposing seems like an awful lot of work, not to mention weight reductions are not always achievable. ITA cars in your system need to loose 20% of their ITCS weight if on street tires. that's 200# for every 1000# of ITCS weight. few if any cars will be able to do that. and you didn't even include ITB, a class you used ot run and know is popular in your area, and one of the more cost sensitive classes, too. What you've made is effectively equalized ITS/R with compensation for tires.

I don't get it.

[StephenB]

Reality is that a second class to take off with only street tires will be tough without participants... same logic as stl.

So using the double dip logic that is working for stl I decided that we should try something that double dippers would be able to do without purchasing anything. It would help the region and help create interest seeing street tires race against r comps. I think creating a class that its cars can run as is, especially where some of them are running in stl already week help create interest and some fun racing.

Also remember this is an interest that Tim and I specifically had to race each other so it certainly doesn't benefit everyone in every class.

[Chip42]

I'm with you on double dipping, running closer to heads up with your friend, and helping the region.

I'm not with you on the need to change rules to to that. but I hope the endeavor works out well for you guys - I am interested in seeing the street tires on track and increasing interest in same.

[pfcs]

why not simplify it to "Run street tires of 180TW or higher in IT using existing rules and classifications"?

if it's popular, you have people to run with. what you're proposing seems like an awful lot of work, not to mention weight reductions are not always achievable. ITA cars in your system need to loose 20% of their ITCS weight if on street tires. that's 200# for every 1000# of ITCS weight. few if any cars will be able to do that. and you didn't even include ITB, a class you used ot run and know is popular in your area, and one of the more cost sensitive classes, too. What you've made is effectively equalized ITS/R with compensation for tires.

I don't get it.

Time to build a New Beetle!

[Flyinglizard]

great start, great idea.

FWIW there is not a lot of lap time difference of the non Hoosier tires in the 40-140 TW value range. The Toyo R 1 can be very close to the Hoosier on some cars. heavy, High power/ or over driven.
I think that you are wasting your effort trying to correct the tires in the 40-140 range. Just do 180 or not.
Add 100# for not and subtract 100# for 180. The Hoosier will still cover the weight IMHE
data follows
After running the same cars( Golf HP, Jetta Turbo, 99 SM) on R1,R6 and Dunlop DZ1 and DZ101;
The Hoosier to 180 + will be about 3-4 sec per lap @ 2:30 laps , like WGI or Sebring, RAlanta.

It takes around 100#added to slow one second for Sebring and WGI under 250HP/sedan.
So I get about 1.5 sec advantage Hoosier @ 200# weight spread. ( a little less @ Sebring a maybe a little more @ WGI, due to speed range)

Maybe consider backing off the throttle stop on the faster car until you die laughing form the drafting battles.

I would consider double dipping the cars the other way. IE spec @ 180+ and let them also run the IT group with whatever tires that they have. The 180 Tires may go as far as 3000 race miles @ 120$ per tire for many cars. Many SCCA guys could run two years on these tires with careful management, IMHO.

[lateapex911]

OK, so lets run a scenario.

Your RX-8 will race with the highest deduction for TW 131 and up at a weight of 3005.
And your buddy, on the same tires will race at a weight of 2465.

Assuming that car can get that low, thats a 540 pound difference. FIVE HUNDRED and FORTY pounds.

Now, I know that an ITS RX-7 puts out about 185, and the RX-8 about 214, in IT trim.
So, thats about 30HP more to move the 540 extra pounds.

The RX-8 DOES get 1" wider rims, but.....

My quick sniff test tells me the RX-7 will win at 99% of the tracks.

You've taken the idea, and folded in a cross class equalization. While I admire the concept, it really cubes the difficulty of the concept.

Equalizing withing the class for tires of say 180 is hard enough, but adding multiple levels of tire factoring and THEN adding class equalization is reeeeeeeaaaly hard.

How did you come up with your factors??

[StephenB]

I tried to use what works for NASA. They use weight as an equalizer. Going from memory I think it equals about 170lbs difference. What they don't include is a factor for different weights of different cars. I figured a % factor would be easier and account for a car that weight is 2400lbs vs 3000lbs. Obviously 150lbs wouldn't affect both those cases the same.

I think what makes it seem complicated is adding the layer of combining ITR with ITS. I get that, honestly if it worked easily they wouldn't have ever created ITR.

I don't see a bunch of people buying tires for next weekend and probably not even for next year. In my class (ITR) I don't see any interest in using street tires, they have the money to keep doing what they are. Sooo.... a few NER ITS cars see already racing in STL. I am trying to equalize my car with them so that I can race with them. Maybe if I can demonstrate that racing on street tires can still be fun more people will join in and interest will build. At that time I wouldn't mind just racing other ITR cars. What I don't want to do is just race all alone on street tires in STU.

I hope this helps make more sense.


My personal goal: I will most likely be the only one in street tires and I will try to stay up with the double dipping ITS cars!

[mossaidis]

I agree with Jake. Large variances in minimum weights just to create equity within ONE street class complicates the issues since many cars will NOT be able to make the new minimum weight.

Option 1 would be to keep it simple, allow cars to run within their own class at the ITCS weight, provide separate prizes for running street tires.

Option 2 run with the NASA prescribed mins you mentioned above so that everyone runs in one class.

Possible option 3 would be to run multiple street class configuration by allowing street tire IT cars to run at lower class at a new minimum weight (or same minimum weight) OR allow them to run in the same class but at a new calculated min weight based on a standard weight deduction based on originating class. Driver's choice. If the region allow this, we can run multi-street classes with IT classes. If the region does not allow this, run multi-street classes within STL/STU or within ITE and be done with it.

ok... I am in Quebec City. Time to get my drink back on.

[Flyinglizard]

looking at the results.
180 Street tires on the ITB cars runs about the same as the ITC cars.
My Low level SM/ITA runs about the same as the ITB class.

[Bill Miller]

looking at the results.
180 Street tires on the ITB cars runs about the same as the ITC cars.
My Low level SM/ITA runs about the same as the ITB class.


Given that, is it a reasonable first approximation to say that an IT car would just run a class 'lower' if it runs a TW 180 or greater tire? For example, Stephen's ITR RX8 would run as an ITS car if it had TW 180 tires, and his buddy's ITS RX7 would run as an ITA car w/ the same tires.

And Stephen, I think it's great that you put so much thought, time, and effort into your idea, but I have to agree w/ Jake, I think you've over-complicated it.

As far as how to go about implementing something like this, I would imagine that if you could get enough folks that wanted to double-dip, you might be able to get a separate group added to one of the lower-subscribed run groups in your Region. I'm by no means suggesting adding an extra run group at this time, as that cuts into everybody's track time, and only benefits the double-dippers. But, if there's 'room' in another run group, why not? This is just something that popped into my head, so I haven't totally thought it through to determine the problems w/ it. I would say, that you would have to limit entries to those IT cars that were running street tires (TW 180+), otherwise you'd run the risk of lots of the IT cars wanting to double-dip, and over-subscribing that group. In other words, no ITS cars running Hoosiers going heads up against ITR cars on street tires.

[Xian]

I think the "class lower" thing is pretty darn close. The Hong Norrth MX3's would be an ITA car (if they existed with the 1.8 liter engine) and run around ITB times on street tires.

[StephenB]

Great feedback guys. I don't think it's worth 14+% weight penalty for an ITR car, that is the amount need to change an itr car to its with the current IT classification system used by the ITAC. Probably closer to the 8% I was thinking but who knows to be honest! I wish I could afford the track time and tire bill to get the info we are looking for to get this perfect but I will keep gathering data and sharing it :)

Stephen

[pfcs]

A possible problem with going one class lower is the distorted "ballistics"
An ITR car on street rubber is still going to accelerate like hell before slowing way down for turns.
Reminiscent of when SSA Camaros ran in ITB race groups. The lap times were nearly identical but re-passing the Camaro at the end of the Glenn's main straight (before bus stop existed) was a little more scary than how he passed me at the beginning! And it was required every lap if you wanted to keep up.

[Bill Miller]

A possible problem with going one class lower is the distorted "ballistics"
An ITR car on street rubber is still going to accelerate like hell before slowing way down for turns.
Reminiscent of when SSA Camaros ran in ITB race groups. The lap times were nearly identical but re-passing the Camaro at the end of the Glenn's main straight (before bus stop existed) was a little more scary than how he passed me at the beginning! And it was required every lap if you wanted to keep up.

I don't think there's that much of a disparity now Phil. You don't necessarily see ITR cars walking ITS cars out of corners now. So I don't think the old SSA / ITB comparison is valid, especially given that we're talking what, 15 years ago at least.

I'd say you can look at lap records, or fastest laps for each class for a given race weekend, to get a reasonable gauge if the 'class lower' concept is valid. It would certainly be easy enough to test via gentleman's agreement w/ an extra set of wheels and a set of street tires. It should be easy enough to distinguish those cars too, just add an "S" (for street tires) after the class designation (e.g. and ITR car running in ITS on street tires would have their class designation be ITRS, and subsequently ITSS, ITAS, and ITBS for the other respective classes). Unfortunately, the ones that get the short end of the stick are the ITC folks.

[lateapex911]

I don't think there's that much of a disparity now Phil. You don't necessarily see ITR cars walking ITS cars out of corners now. So I don't think the old SSA / ITB comparison is valid, especially given that we're talking what, 15 years ago at least.

I'd say you can look at lap records, or fastest laps for each class for a given race weekend, to get a reasonable gauge if the 'class lower' concept is valid. It would certainly be easy enough to test via gentleman's agreement w/ an extra set of wheels and a set of street tires. It should be easy enough to distinguish those cars too, just add an "S" (for street tires) after the class designation (e.g. and ITR car running in ITS on street tires would have their class designation be ITRS, and subsequently ITSS, ITAS, and ITBs for the other respective classes). Unfortunately, the ones that get the short end of the stick are the ITC folks.
I'd go lower case, for, you know, better reads.

I'm not losing too much sleep over ITC at this point.
(Certainly, at some tracks, their lap times won't be nearly as affected as higher class cars. They are easy flat through much of Lime Rock, and if the Street tires have lower rolling resistance, they benefit there. On the flip side, a major issue for them will be unsprung weight. it's more complicated than just the compound)

[Bill Miller]

I'd go lower case, for, you know, better reads.

I'm not losing too much sleep over ITC at this point.
(Certainly, at some tracks, their lap times won't be nearly as affected as higher class cars. They are easy flat through much of Lime Rock, and if the Street tires have lower rolling resistance, they benefit there. On the flip side, a major issue for them will be unsprung weight. it's more complicated than just the compound)

Lower case (or a different size) may make it easier to read.

I think you missed my point about ITC Jake. ITC doesn't have the option of going a class lower if they run street tires. But then again, I don't think an ITC Rabbit or 510 wears out a set of R6's like an ITS RX7 or an ITR BMW.

[Flyinglizard]

FWIW there are no 180TW tires in 13in. The ITC cars would have to go to 14 or 15s and the result would be a lot slower than my data.

My times were taken all with the same roll out, or Inches Per Revolution (IPR).
Even if the ITC cars made gearchanges to match prior IPR, they wil still be slower with larger tires.

[quadzjr]

Bring back ITD! Then ITC cars can run street tires against a slower class.. but then what about ITD? racing against horse drawn buggies?

[Knestis]

The "one class lower" idea wasn't quite right for the "E" (endurance) classes we saw at the Devil in the Dark this year, but those were "collapsed" classes with broader performance distributions. I wouldn't be at all surprised if within the existing IT category a one-class drop for street tires would be about right.

Kirk (who means on a REGION-BY-REGION basis, not as something to be implemented in the ITCS nationwide at this point)

[Chip42]

means on a REGION-BY-REGION basis, not as something to be implemented in the ITCS nationwide at this point
Don't worry about that!!

I've got some Rivals on order for my B car. I'll be testing at Roebling here soon, and racing at Sebring and Roebling in the near future. yes, partly this will be first time back out for the car since being rearranged by a mustang in February, but it should be a good test anyhow as I will have used but still good hohos to use, too.

I don't think I like the class lower drop. I see enough class overlap anyhow that it shouldn't matter. Race on street rubber, race within a group doing likewise and have fun. isn't that the point?

[Bill Miller]

I don't think I like the class lower drop. I see enough class overlap anyhow that it shouldn't matter. Race on street rubber, race within a group doing likewise and have fun. isn't that the point?

I think it's more about proof of concept and and easy implementation at this point Chip. As I said, I kind of threw the 'one class drop' concept out there as a straw man based on some of the other comments.

It certainly would offer a pretty easy double-dip potential (provided the adjacent classes run in different groups). I think it will be tough to squeeze an extra group into an already packed schedule (at least from what I remember in the NE).

/edit Think of it as something like the limited prep / full prep concept in Prod. And before anybody gets all up in arms, I'm simply saying that you can have cars that could be faster, racing in lower classes, by virtue of differences in the prep rules. Not really that much different than running a higher grunt car on lower performing tires, against a lower grunt car on stickier rubber.

[ShelbyRacer]

Chip-

Buy a 2nd set and let me shave 'em. Test those too. Let's see how deep the "cost savings" actually are.

And before anyone says "no shaving"- send me a set of worn tires and a set of new ones. I'll send you back two sets that you won't be able to tell apart *visually*.

[Knestis]

I'm pretty confident that you're going to be disappointed in the difference between shaved (or "worn") street tires and new ones, with the current crop of options. That's just one guy's pointing at the fence, tho.

K

[Flyinglizard]

The grip stays the same after the first run.
The shaved tires wil always be a little faster due to weight and roll out.

[Chip42]

Chip-

Buy a 2nd set and let me shave 'em. Test those too. Let's see how deep the "cost savings" actually are.

And before anyone says "no shaving"- send me a set of worn tires and a set of new ones. I'll send you back two sets that you won't be able to tell apart *visually*.

Matt, I'd love to but part of the attraction is the cost savings, which I'm pretty keen on myself. I can't afford set#2 right off the bat and while I certainly welcome the comparison, I wouldn't be shooting for THAT extra 10th myself, there's a lot more to be found in the loose nut.

[ShelbyRacer]

I'm pretty confident that you're going to be disappointed in the difference between shaved (or "worn") street tires and new ones, with the current crop of options. That's just one guy's pointing at the fence, tho.

K

I'm not saying that it will be a phenominal difference, but ANY difference is an advantage. I know you can appreciate that point.

Whether it's 0.1 sec/lap or 0.5 sec/lap, and no matter if the shaving or the "newness" is an advantage, it takes more financial commitment to run at the pointy end of the field. I'm simply saying that when we look at cost savings to the typical racer, you have to account for all the factors, even of those that he/she may not take advantage.

Other food for thought- the setup for street tires may vary from current race tire setups by quite a bit. The balance may shift to different cars whose suspension is better adapted. This will become another one of those "warts and all" moments, and *I'm* OK with that. If this is done at a regional level (since I am currently opposed to any inclusion in the national IT ruleset), they may find they're in for more than they thought on the management end of things...

My overall question though still is-
Are we thinking of doing this to posssibly save costs to current racers, or to bring in cars that don't currently comply, thereby expanding IT even further, or both?

[Flyinglizard]

IMHO the 180 tires would be a huge asset for the IT class by allowing more cars to race more often. The big cars would see a lot longer tire life. The smaller cars could run all season on the same tires.
Any time that you can reduce the cost per event, you can do more events.

Any time that lateral grip is reduced, the racing gets better.

Any time that that new tires are not a huge advantage ,the racing gets better.

The only setup changes we have done;
VW Golf , raise rear pressure to reduce rear grip.( iuse 195 rears , 205 fronts and will go to 225 fronts)

SM, hook up rear bar.( 195 or 205) 225 would work also .

[Chip42]

it doesn't make non compliant cars compliant - the tires are already legal and they won't undo other issues with legality. ITX or whatever is not IT, so this really has little bearing OTHER THAN shifting performance of "real" IT cars to balance better with the non-IT cars running the same tires in a catchall class, meaning more cars to run with assuming both groups show up. then again, the power to weight on a lot of those cars is different from IT, so the DOTR tires on a proper IT car might actually be a better balance to the street tired LeChumpers.

Either way, I can't imagine that voluntarily run or regionally organized IT on street tires will attract new cars in and of itself. BUT, at a lower cost to run, the overall package of cost and competitiveness gains some IF enough people run. I have no doubt the tires can do the job, I do doubt that we can get enough people to willingly shed the purple crack to make the competition element worthwhile.

in THAT sense, a rule change would make sense, forcing the competition into a group rather than picking up the stragglers and guys who simply can't (or cannot afford) to run up front to join the movement, but I don't support it on the national level, at least not yet. I might in the future. a case needs to be made and proven.

[StephenB]

Fyi, same driver, 2days with same track (NHMS) and weather conditions... ITR RX8 @2940lbs. Dunlop Direzza Z2 1:18.0. Brand new Hoosiers 1:15.8.

Food for thought.
Stephen

[Flyinglizard]

Can you post the other classes? Thanks,MM

[joeg]

Mike--Nice article on your son in this month's Sportcar.

Of course the last time I saw him, he was about two years old!

[Knestis]

Indeed! I saw that last night. Very cool.

K

[joeg]

Mike is actually from Upstate NY, K.

[Ron Earp]

i I do doubt that we can get enough people to willingly shed the purple crack to make the competition element worthwhile.


Nope, hard sell right now given the differences in lap times that the best data we've seen to date suggests.

What stinks is the damn tire sizes. In 15", the largest wheels allowed in IT other than ITR, most of these "street" tires max out at 205 or 225 sizes. That isn't a good fit for the heavier and typically higher horsepower cars one finds in ITS and to a much lesser degree ITA.

[Chip42]

Nope, hard sell right now given the differences in lap times that the best data we've seen to date suggests.

What stinks is the damn tire sizes. In 15", the largest wheels allowed in IT other than ITR, most of these "street" tires max out at 205 or 225 sizes. That isn't a good fit for the heavier and typically higher horsepower cars one finds in ITS and to a much lesser degree ITA.

BUT slower, lighter cars like mine and most of ITB and a good chunk of ITA COULD make use off them, and probably at less disadvantage. I have my ZIIs, and will be testing them soon.

[StephenB]

I was the only one on street tires this weekend. Ed was about 2 seconds slower per lap as was I. First 3-4 laps on the street tires will be your best, then they get loose and about .5 seconds slower on average. This was at NHMS, a slow corner track where you need rear grip to get you out of the corner (other than the oval).

[Xian]

Nope, hard sell right now given the differences in lap times that the best data we've seen to date suggests.

What stinks is the damn tire sizes. In 15", the largest wheels allowed in IT other than ITR, most of these "street" tires max out at 205 or 225 sizes. That isn't a good fit for the heavier and typically higher horsepower cars one finds in ITS and to a much lesser degree ITA.

Yup. For the larger/heavier cars to take advantage of street tires, they'd need to run 17's... and then you're talking about a different FD. Similar situation to the ITC cars current running 13's. They'd have to go to 15's and get a new FD. $$$


I was the only one on street tires this weekend. Ed was about 2 seconds slower per lap as was I. First 3-4 laps on the street tires will be your best, then they get loose and about .5 seconds slower on average. This was at NHMS, a slow corner track where you need rear grip to get you out of the corner (other than the oval).

Did you guys have a chance to play with setup at all for the street tires? I know that the setup I've run on race tires in the past is oversprung for street tires and I've seen big setup changes needed just moving from one street tire to another. Not faulting you guys in anyway for what you did, just wondering if there was any time left in the street tire setup maybe.

[Flyinglizard]

Thanks for the kind words Re MY Son. He is a lot nicer than I. Almost as fast.

[StephenB]

Did you guys have a chance to play with setup at all for the street tires? I know that the setup I've run on race tires in the past is oversprung for street tires and I've seen big setup changes needed just moving from one street tire to another. Not faulting you guys in anyway for what you did, just wondering if there was any time left in the street tire setup maybe.

You are 100% correct that more time can be gained! We did not change set ups since we were running back to back with only a few sessions in between. I don't think it's worth seconds but certainly some...

Stephen

[RSTPerformance]

You are 100% correct that more time can be gained! We did not change set ups since we were running back to back with only a few sessions in between. I don't think it's worth seconds but certainly some...

Stephen

Stephen didn't mention but it I worth mentioning... The car set up worked great with either tire, no need for changes. Obviously huge dollar changes/testing with a lot more time between runs could allow for some fine timing of spring rates and shocks but to be honest that also goes for the race tire... My feeling is the same time gained for the street tire is equal to what could be gained with the race tire.

Another thing is the tires had a big spin in nascar turn 1/2 at ~95mph and did not flatspot... Just another reason it's a good tire for new drivers... Hoosiers would have been toast for sure!

Raymond "still feel the Dunlop is a great tire for newbies saving money to develop car and skill" Blethen

[pfcs]

Stephen didn't mention but it I worth mentioning... The car set up worked great with either tire, no need for changes.

With such a difference in adhesion (lap times), the setups can't possibly both be ideal. At least cambers must be quite different and optimums would yield substantive changes.

[Xian]

Stephen didn't mention but it I worth mentioning... The car set up worked great with either tire, no need for changes. Obviously huge dollar changes/testing with a lot more time between runs could allow for some fine timing of spring rates and shocks but to be honest that also goes for the race tire... My feeling is the same time gained for the street tire is equal to what could be gained with the race tire.

Another thing is the tires had a big spin in nascar turn 1/2 at ~95mph and did not flatspot... Just another reason it's a good tire for new drivers... Hoosiers would have been toast for sure!

Raymond "still feel the Dunlop is a great tire for newbies saving money to develop car and skill" Blethen

Valid point that the setup may have been "good enough" for both tires but ideal for neither.

Just as another data point, I picked up a new autoX car (EF Civic) that's setup for street tires (in particular the 140TW Toyo R1R). The fast setup for this tire? How about ~5* of camber in the front and tire pressures in the 24# hot range. Bizarro. :blink:

[mossaidis]

Yeah with that much chamber, you need low pressures to increase your contact patch...

[pfcs]

How about ~5* of camber in the front and tire pressures in the 24# hot range.

How much roll couple is there? Sounds like maybe not enough for the grip or you aren't seeing the big picture clearly.

PS: are you an audiokarma guy?

[Xian]

As I said before... this is an autoX car, so not apples: apples with club racing.

BUT, front rates @700# are plenty to control roll and are in line with or higher than what you'd see on an IT version of the same car. I mention the funky setup as it relates to street tires sometimes benefitting from a setup that is waaaaay off what you'd see with an R-comp. Optimizing setup for street tires may be close to or far from what you'd run with R's but it's doubtful that it'll be the same.

Sidebar on the high camber setup: the 195/50 R1R is referred to as the "Pixie Dust" Toyo in that it uses a "soft" compound down to the cords vs. a "soft then hard" dual compound used by most of the other size R1R's. It also has a different carcass construction... truly a on of a kind type tire in many ways. If you were to look around an SCCA Solo Nat's grid, the guys at the front of the field are all running crazy camber and super low pressures. If you were to move to a different tire, you'd be running higher pressures and standing the tire up (more conventionally).